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CockpitBuilders.com - Main => Builders Discussions => Topic started by: Captbrian on February 08, 2018, 10:02:00 AM

Title: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Captbrian on February 08, 2018, 10:02:00 AM
Hi, I know this is been posted somewhat before.   I know there will be a better Immersive experience with 180 projector system.  Building a 737NG cockpit in my basement.  Don't have very high ceilings,  maybe 8 feet.  Main FS computer is Processor: i7-4770K @ 3.50GHz (64 bit)
Memory: 16 gigs DDR3
GTX 770 GPU
Liquid Cooled Processor: Corsair Hydro Series 7289
Power Supply: 1000W

I work in IT so I can get as many older CPU's as I need.  Most are used Dell i5 2200 with 8GB.

So getting to my question.  Should I go with projectors using these older PC's running Wieview or go 4K monitors/TV's and plug those into my FS PC's?   Then run my MIP screens on the other PC's with Magenta?  I guess I am looking for the best FPS with each solution.  I know G-sync will be better with the 4K. 

Too much info out there!!! UGGGGG

Thanks!

Brian
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: XOrionFE on February 08, 2018, 10:29:16 AM
Monitors any day of the week.   MY .02.

Projectors are way overrated and a pita.   Everyone talks about immersion but I can say from experience that immersion is no better on projectors than it is with wrap around monitors.   Anyone who says otherwise has not truly experienced both.   Projectors are also more complex and will never never look as high contrast and as much detail as monitors.    Add 4K monitors to the mix and they will completely smoke a projector view.     That said, be aware that running 4K on three from screens with individual viewpoints on each is probably going to crush in the the top 1080 TI card today.  I would buy 4k monitors today but run at 1080p for performance until you can get the right cards or video cards get even better to support 4k on 3 screens at once off a single card.     You would likely need multiple 1080 TI cards and they are impossible to buy right now.    Wideview is also a PITA.  Clouds never sink right, you need to use a special weather connector to try an sync, I believe from past experience that WideTraffic is also not always working for traffic.   I have some older videos up on youtube describing these issues.   Fred is the wizard here in using it but I would say it is not for the faint of heart.   Takes a ton of maintenance to keep all computers running and setup with all the same scenery etc.   

The only way I would suggest projectors (which on the plus side can of course fully wrap a cockpit with only 3 compared to needing 5 screens if using TVs....) would be if you could afford a NatVIS pro setup.   That is probably about the best they can be from what I have seen though never saw one of NAT's setups with my own eyes.   I also think that because of the complexity of wideview (for those using FSX or P3D) running 3 screens is easiest off one computer.   Disadvantage of monitiors is you will not get the same wraparound and immersion with 3 monitors as you would with 3 projectors.   Projects win here.   Finally, switch to X-Plane and networked views on mulitple pcs is built in and works fantastic.   Same weather sync issues as wideview on P3d or FSX though.   X-Plane hasnt solved that yet either.

As for your older computers...they would work fine for your avionics screens (Prosim, Sim-A,or PM).   They are worthless for your outside views though.

Ok projector and wideview folks...feel free to flame....lol


Scott
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: FredK on February 08, 2018, 01:26:45 PM
I think some issues are getting a bit confused here, so some clarification......

Regarding performance:   

Sim performance has nothing to do with projectors vs. monitors...run each at the same resolution and you will get the same result.  That said, if you choose to do a curved projection screen you will need to use a warping program which will degrade your image slightly.  If you go with a flat screen projection there is no difference.

Sim performance is CPU-limited.  The value of a multichannel (multi-computer) visual system is that it provides significantly greater computing power over a multi-display running off a single computer,  and the difference there is no where even close.  As a specific example, in my three projector WideView setup I have Ultimate Traffic Live running at 100% traffic settings at FlightBeam KSFO (order of magnitude...something like 300 planes...I cannot even find an open gate to park at). All the while the performance result is absolutely smooth (no choppiness whatsoever) with frames that never drop anywhere near below 30.  The same at any other payware airport.  That level of performance is simply not achievable in a multi-display single computer setup.

In that regard as Scott points out 4K is not possible with a single computer running multi-displays.  Although I have no experience with 4K panel displays I would venture to say such would be possible to run in a multi-display setup using WideView if that degree of resolution fidelity is your particular interest. 

Regarding WideView:

Very assuredly there is no issue at all with weather synchronization using WideView.  What Scott is referring to is the WideView of many years past.  All weather including individual clouds sync 100%....absolutely!

WideView per se requires no special weather programs...you can use your favorite.  However I choose to use FS Global Weather with WV since it is the only weather program that will transfer weather over a network outside of the WV program.  This serves to maximize overall performance for a multi-core computer since the program is running in a separate thread.

Very assuredly also,  AI traffic syncs 100% even given the busiest situations that I have referenced above.

There is always a price to pay though........I do agree that WideView is a beast to setup and maintain given the fact that you are dealing with multiple computers and the cost thereof (although the WV program itself is very easy to setup).

As I mentioned in the other thread I had high hopes that P3Dv4 64-bit would finally release me from the WV beast.  My hopes were dashed though when I tried using it in a single channel using the best possible combination of CPU and GPU. Possible yes, but not at the performance level I am used to.

All this said I am the first one to say that Scott has a very impressive and admirable setup.  This hobby comes down to a matter of trade-offs in terms of what is most important to you.

Fred K
 
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Ed on February 08, 2018, 03:19:00 PM
I think some issues are getting a bit confused here, so some clarification......







As I mentioned in the other thread I had high hopes that P3Dv4 64-bit would finally release me from the WV beast.  My hopes were dashed though when I tried using it in a single channel using the best possible combination of CPU and GPU. Possible yes, but not at the performance level I am used to.


Fred K

Hi Fred,

When you tested  with P3D4, did you test with View Groups (professional License) or the Multi Channel that is offered with the Professional Plus License?

 I myself have decided to go with 60 " Samsung TV's but have not yet decided whether to go WideView or Professional Plus Multi Channel.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: FredK on February 08, 2018, 06:15:30 PM
Ed - I am using WideView with Fly Elise,  View Groups,  and the P3Dv4 Academic license. 

I have not investigated the P3D Pro version for multichannel.  Previous reports claimed it did not work as well as WideView....that may have changed with P3Dv4.  I really do not know though.  I have queried that question on the P3D forum a couple of times without a response.

Fred K
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Captbrian on February 08, 2018, 06:33:08 PM
Thanks all for the Reply and the info! 

Fred,  When you run WideView what are the computer specs you are running it on?    Also the Warp software you are using I looked at.  What version?   It says PC Lock or USB dungle.  So does that mean you can only run fly elise on one PC when using WideView? 

Can someone explain what you mean Multi Channel?   

Thanks guys!  I am sure I will have more questions.   I owe you all a Beer! 

Brian
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: navymustang on February 08, 2018, 08:03:05 PM
Brian, I also want to second Fred's post. I get it that people love LCD monitors - they are crisp and clear. But I argue that you will feel the immersive difference.

And I also agree that WideView and WideTraffic is the way to go. Incredible software. Turns out my rig is nearly identical to Fred's with a PC driving each of the three projectors and a master visual computer and host computer.

I have the Professional Plus license for P3D, and still have not got Multichannel working correctly. So will stay with WideView for the near future.

Multichannel simply means that there are multiple copies of P3D on different computers synchronized to the same visual scene.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: XOrionFE on February 08, 2018, 08:29:52 PM
Will still disagree on the comments about immersion.   No difference between the two as long as your windshield is full all the way around....none whatsoever.  But you have to judge for yourself with your own eyes.   Don't take my word or anyone elses.....visit a couple examples before spending your hard earned dollars to see what looks and works best for you...the travel expense will be worth it..

Fred, great to hear that Wideview and Widetraffic are working now.  I had given up on them.   I have a question for you.   If you install P3d for instance on the main computer along with all of your cloud textures (AS or Rex, etc) then your scenery such as ORBX, Aerosoft airports, or Gex and the like, and things like GSX or other utilities...do you have to go through all those same install steps on each visual client pc or is there an easy shortcut such as install P3D but then just copying certain folders?    This was perhaps always my main frustration with wideview and netowrked PCs which is why in the end I settled for the simplicity of 3 screens on one computer with view groups.   Yes performance was not going to be AS good but was still very good to me.    In X-Plane one can literally just copy folders off the master and your done...really simple.

Scott
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: 727737Nut on February 08, 2018, 09:01:51 PM
This topic is a no brainer at today’s low tv cost.  Hell you can buy 4K TVs for less than 400 bucks.  Sorry fellas, once you fly the clarity you would never go back to flying the day out dark in fuzzy dull no black night having projectors.   And yes. I am qualified to say that.  I am a former projector junky. Lol.   Make it easy on yourself fellas. I have one PC running my entire very complex Sim and 2 50” 4K TVs    I turn in the power  start the LC and I fly.  No dicking around with stupid stuff.   We all have our opinions but Scott was right! Do yourself a huge favor. Spend a little money and visit people with each option and see for yourself!  Oh and 100$ reward for the first projector night scene photographed with full room lighting on and I can still make out the VASI at 10dme.  Lol


Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: FredK on February 08, 2018, 10:20:36 PM
Quote
Thanks all for the Reply and the info! 

Fred,  When you run WideView what are the computer specs you are running it on?    Also the Warp software you are using I looked at.  What version?   It says PC Lock or USB dungle.  So does that mean you can only run fly elise on one PC when using WideView? 

Can someone explain what you mean Multi Channel?   

Thanks guys!  I am sure I will have more questions.   I owe you all a Beer! 

Brian

"Multi-channel" means "multi-computer".

Listed below are my computer specs.  They are arguably the best combination of CPU and GPU for flight simming right now.  However, mid-range computers will work fine for WideView (I was using four year old I7-4790K / 980 GPU computers with P3dv3).

Computer Specs:

WV Server (main P3D computer, not used for an outside view): I7-7700K / GT1080
WV Client (left view): I7-8700K / GT1080Ti
WV Client (center view): I7-8700K / GT1080Ti
WV Client (right view): I7-8700K / GT1080Ti
SimAvionics Server: I7-4790K / GT1080 (my old WV computer re-purposed)
SimAvionics Client: I7-4790K / GT 980 (my old WV computer re-purposed)

Fly Elise:

I am using the PC lock version.  No problems doing it that way.  It never fails. You will need 3 separate licenses for the display software, and a single license for the calibration software.  If you replace a computer or change a video card, etc. you will need to get a new software code to match that hardware.  Fly Elise has been excellent in responding rapidly for new software codes....always within 24 hours or less.

And Yes...There is an expense factor going this route, but it results in the best possible performance by far.......for either projectors or flat panels.

Fred K

Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: FredK on February 08, 2018, 10:44:25 PM
Quote
Fred, great to hear that Wideview and Widetraffic are working now.  I had given up on them.   I have a question for you.   If you install P3d for instance on the main computer along with all of your cloud textures (AS or Rex, etc) then your scenery such as ORBX, Aerosoft airports, or Gex and the like, and things like GSX or other utilities...do you have to go through all those same install steps on each visual client pc or is there an easy shortcut such as install P3D but then just copying certain folders?    This was perhaps always my main frustration with wideview and netowrked PCs which is why in the end I settled for the simplicity of 3 screens on one computer with view groups.   Yes performance was not going to be AS good but was still very good to me.    In X-Plane one can literally just copy folders off the master and your done...really simple.

Yes....There clearly is a significant extra effort to load each WV computer.  Just about everything needs to be reloaded, not copied.  There are some exceptions like AI traffic files, but suffice it to say everything has to be reloaded.  Typically it will take me about 2-3 days of work to build a new computer from scratch, load Windows, and load P3D with all my add-ons etc.  Times that by 3 or 4 computers and you are talking two weeks of work...once every 3-4 years which is the typical obsolence cycle.  That of course is without factoring in do-overs along the way.  I am retired so time is not critical....it is good therapy to keep my brain neurons firing.  This hobby is a time consuming black hole anyhow.  But that is what a hobby is all about.

Perhaps the easiest way to do it would be via cloning.  Set up one computer as you normally would and then simply clone it.  The clone would also come in handy if you needed to do a rebuild down the road.  I have not investigated any of that, but I am told it is doable.  I prefer the grunt therapy method.

Once it is all setup it is really not much more complicated to run than a single computer setup....just a few extra clicks of a mouse here and there.

And YES.....No one is denying that a multi-channel setup is clearly more of an effort to setup and maintain.  But it does deliver the best possible sim performance.....for either projectors or flat screens.

Fred K
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Philip on February 09, 2018, 12:39:51 AM
Hey Brian,

I'm in the same boat as you, and getting close to start planning out what I'm going to do for visuals as well. A lot of great feedback from the ones with it up and running already....Decisions, decisions.....

I see you are in Berkeley. Would that be in California by any chance? If so, I'm right down the road from you in Walnut Creek. Maybe we can put our heads together and figure it out one day. I sent you a PM.

Philip
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: RayS on February 09, 2018, 01:56:54 AM
My $0.02 worth...

The 'world' isn't a 4K super-contrast, 4000 lumens, 120,000:1 contrast ratio. In my opinion, projectors render a better outside view than any LCD tv. The realism is in a projector's shortcomings.

...and go!

 
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: XOrionFE on February 09, 2018, 07:09:26 AM
Quote
Fred, great to hear that Wideview and Widetraffic are working now.  I had given up on them.   I have a question for you.   If you install P3d for instance on the main computer along with all of your cloud textures (AS or Rex, etc) then your scenery such as ORBX, Aerosoft airports, or Gex and the like, and things like GSX or other utilities...do you have to go through all those same install steps on each visual client pc or is there an easy shortcut such as install P3D but then just copying certain folders?    This was perhaps always my main frustration with wideview and netowrked PCs which is why in the end I settled for the simplicity of 3 screens on one computer with view groups.   Yes performance was not going to be AS good but was still very good to me.    In X-Plane one can literally just copy folders off the master and your done...really simple.

Yes....There clearly is a significant extra effort to load each WV computer.  Just about everything needs to be reloaded, not copied.  There are some exceptions like AI traffic files, but suffice it to say everything has to be reloaded.  Typically it will take me about 2-3 days of work to build a new computer from scratch, load Windows, and load P3D with all my add-ons etc.  Times that by 3 or 4 computers and you are talking two weeks of work...once every 3-4 years which is the typical obsolence cycle.  That of course is without factoring in do-overs along the way.  I am retired so time is not critical....it is good therapy to keep my brain neurons firing.  This hobby is a time consuming black hole anyhow.  But that is what a hobby is all about.

Perhaps the easiest way to do it would be via cloning.  Set up one computer as you normally would and then simply clone it.  The clone would also come in handy if you needed to do a rebuild down the road.  I have not investigated any of that, but I am told it is doable.  I prefer the grunt therapy method.

Once it is all setup it is really not much more complicated to run than a single computer setup....just a few extra clicks of a mouse here and there.

And YES.....No one is denying that a multi-channel setup is clearly more of an effort to setup and maintain.  But it does deliver the best possible sim performance.....for either projectors or flat screens.

Fred K

Thank you Fred.    If I ever end up switching back to P3D I surely will end up setting up wideview in the end and having to domthe work as it would be difficult to go back to 3 Screens and lose my wrap around and immersion.   At least I know now that it would work and dont have to do all the work only to find out clouds and traffic dont.     I appreciate the insight.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Bob Reed on February 09, 2018, 07:24:59 AM
 :2cw: I am running a far from perfect setup. I am using mis matched screens. By this I mean I am using 2 50" plasma screens for the front view and 2 42" Viso tvs for the side views and they are not the same model.  1070ti for my GDU and an old i7 gen2 for a computer. All 4 screens run off the 1070. The 2 50" screens set up as 1 100" screen. I have flown many projector setups and having done so would not trade my hodge podge setup for any of them. Night is the biggest difference and with the improvements made by P3d v4 for night flying.... There is no going back. This is of course just my opinion! Your milage may differ....
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: XOrionFE on February 09, 2018, 07:31:41 AM
My $0.02 worth...

The 'world' isn't a 4K super-contrast, 4000 lumens, 120,000:1 contrast ratio. In my opinion, projectors render a better outside view than any LCD tv. The realism is in a projector's shortcomings.

...and go!

Technically speaking...anyone using projectors should salivate at the idea of someday perhaps getting a 4K projector.   When you blow an image up to the size typically done on projectors and bring the image in as close as we do for our sims, 4K would yield much much smaller pixel size thous making the view look much smoother and better than a 1080p projected image.    On TVs one would have a hard time realistically noticing the difference on a smaller screen (say less than 50") especially at any distance.   However bring it on the desktop 2-3 ft from your eyes and it would be a noticable difference though much more noticable if on a 60 or 70 inch display at 3 ft.   I believe 1080 P is fine for a 60 inch TV at 3-4 ft because any possible notice of pixel size (which my eyes personally cannot detect) is far outweighed by the increaseed performance and framerate at the lower resolution.   If however I was running projectors I would long for more resolution.   I ran 1080 P projectors in a wrap around setup for 3 years.   I hated the screen door affect and from an outside view look...@Ray....it looked like washed out crap.   Could never clearly read taxi signs until right up on top of them and not moving....vasis were washed out looking on approach, details in things were always subdoed.    In fact I went over to my friends house last fall who has projectors with a 210 degree curved screen setup (he is a CB member here and also the proud owner of Maurices old NG sim) and we flew a little.   It looked like crap again to me and only served to remind me just how awesome the tvs looked in contrast.   Btw- after flying in my sim he is currently tearing out his custom built curved screen wall and going to TVs.

Like I have said before...seeing in person for ones self is best.

Scott

Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: 727737Nut on February 09, 2018, 07:45:17 AM
My $0.02 worth...

The 'world' isn't a 4K super-contrast, 4000 lumens, 120,000:1 contrast ratio. In my opinion, projectors render a better outside view than any LCD tv. The realism is in a projector's shortcomings.

...and go!

Having met you Ray and knowing your knowledge and skill set that was a very disappointing statement.  But since Scott already ripped it to shreds I’ll refrain from further comment.    Also I think maybe you ought to visit a local bestbuy or something and look at an LED TV built in the last 2 years   Clarity. Clarity clarity    One more joke.   Oh how I miss the days of announcing airport not in site when I’m only 5 miles away looking through my screen door 120” projector screen   Lmao
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Bob Reed on February 09, 2018, 07:46:42 AM
I agree with what is a common theme here. Go see some of the sims out there and see what it all looks like in person. Most folks would love to share their setups with you. Spend a little time and money and do the leg work. That will allow you to make an educated decision on what YOU like best and make a new friend or 2 along the way!
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: FredK on February 09, 2018, 09:20:49 AM
The welcome mat is always out here in Williamsburg Virginia!

Fred K
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: 727737Nut on February 09, 2018, 10:00:39 AM
I agree with what is a common theme here. Go see some of the sims out there and see what it all looks like in person. Most folks would love to share their setups with you. Spend a little time and money and do the leg work. That will allow you to make an educated decision on what YOU like best and make a new friend or 2 along the way!

Very well said Mr Reed!  My door is open to anyone to visit.  I get the same comments over and over, the pics and video's online don't do it justice!  Hence the reason to visit fellow builders in person.  ;)
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: iwik on February 09, 2018, 11:11:20 AM
C'mon guys, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Les
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Trevor Hale on February 09, 2018, 11:24:57 AM
C'mon guys, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Les
you mean  :cheers: "BEER-Holder"
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Ed on February 09, 2018, 11:48:16 AM
Ed - I am using WideView with Fly Elise,  View Groups,  and the P3Dv4 Academic license. 

I have not investigated the P3D Pro version for multichannel.  Previous reports claimed it did not work as well as WideView....that may have changed with P3Dv4.  I really do not know though.  I have queried that question on the P3D forum a couple of times without a response.

Fred K

Thanks for info Fred. I see later in the thread that Jim has tried with the Pro Plus Multi Channel and to date has been unsuccessful, so wideView still seems the best way to go. Apparently X-Plane works well with multiple screens but I use Prosim for my Avionics so that's a no go for me. I think I will still give the Pro Plus a try before I discount it completely.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: RayS on February 09, 2018, 12:23:53 PM
I think the comparison suffers from technical inequality. Pit a $3000 4K 75" flatscreen against a $800 1080p projector and the winner is clear. I would offer that if you invest the same amount into a better projector and some of those quality differences start to equal out.

Will a projector ever compete with a 4K OLED TV? Probably not, unless you're willing to invest upwards of $25,000 for pro projector rig.

At some point though, diminishing returns take over.

While a projected screen may never reach the quality of a 4K tv, I'll enjoy my slightly diminished 3-projector 220-degree seamless wraparound screen and you TV guys can enjoy your hyper-realistic 4K displays interspersed with a few giant black vertical bars.

 :) typed with love  ;D
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 09, 2018, 12:52:59 PM
I currently have 220 degree view with three GT1080 Darbees and single 4790/980Ti.
For me the immersion is more about the ability to look down from the side windows and see the scenery below you.

Not going to play a devil advocate here.
Besides, who cares about the opinion of an old ElephantAir737  ?

 :idiot:
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: jackpilot on February 09, 2018, 01:22:35 PM
I'll just add my grain of salt (for new members) as old timers already know me  :D.

Simulation allows me to keep on with what I love best: flying airplanes, and what a treat it is to have a full 737 in the hangar!!
This being said I spend all the time I need to prepare meticulously every flight in the 73, using ..."paper maps and approach plates" programming the CDU properly as a back up, and going through all preflight operations.
As I fly the airplane myself (vs VNAV LNAV pushbuttonning) the ratio of looking at my instruments and controls to looking outside the window is about 10 to 1.
Which brings me to my point:
I use ONE Optoma HD with which I manage to fill the two front windows from CPT and FO point of views.
Totally immersive for me from pushback to docking, when I make a turn, the airplane banks not the horizon, when I reduce power to initiate a descent I feel the nose dropping (all helped by a good speakers network) etc etc
Conclusion: Of course a 220 or 180 visual is fantastic and much better but a full coverage of the front windows is more than enough for immersion (IMHO) . Lets put it  that way, you will save thousands of dollars,tons of hair-pulling hours trying to match views, bend  blend, synchronize, change videocards, etc etc .

I single huge outside view is an option also worth  considering, allowing immersion at a fraction of the "panoramic" costs, delivering mamoth FPS with all sliders right and ..piece of mind/reliability.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/FBRTgm.jpg)
PS: Nick: your sim is amazing...due respect  ;)
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Trevor Hale on February 09, 2018, 02:11:23 PM
Sadly, this debate always brings friction to the forum.  Every time I see the discussion come around, I want to lock the thread with a simple (Debated before a bazillion times... Use the search feature of the forum) LOL.

In any case, I hope everyone can keep this ON-TRACK..  Seems like Deja-Vu if you ask me though.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: XOrionFE on February 09, 2018, 02:19:10 PM
I don't think anyone is getting heated or anything.  We are all friends here.   This is all just good healthy debate where no one is right or wrong.    I learned something new out of it today from Fred so is a great thread.

Scott
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Trevor Hale on February 09, 2018, 02:42:10 PM
I know, but feels like I could cut the tension with a knife LOL...
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: ifeliciano on February 09, 2018, 03:00:07 PM
im·mer·sion
i?m?rZH?n,i?m?rSH?n/


Everyone has a different threshold of immersion. When I started simming, I used a 17" CRT. It felt immersed to me. I moved on to a 21" CRT, so on and so on, and eventually to 3 32" IPS panels in viewgroups. I don't have a cockpit yet. Still a desk top setup and I feel immersed when I make my daily flights from KDFW to KIAH then KMIA.

Like Jack, my immersion level is not totally driven by eye candy, but by flight prepping and following procedures. If I need to look down at the ground scenery, I just pan the view :D

That being said. PJ or 4K monitors it up to each individual to make that choice. I go with the best I can afford.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Ed on February 09, 2018, 04:33:13 PM
Hi Trevor,

I have to agree with Scott: re: leaning something new,  with your comment as well re: tension. I think it's a good healthy debate though and there is/was a little tension, however   I also learned a few new things as well which is akin to getting a new sim part in the mail :). It's great to hear from those who have been there and have the different experiences.

 Yes it is true this has been debated a bazillion times before, but things in this hobby have also changed a bazillion times too so I hope the thread continues and remains fruitful.

 :2cw:
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: jackpilot on February 09, 2018, 04:38:41 PM
Absolutely, I remember having my first projector image (about 6 feet wide) and the incredible "Whaoo" feeling as I was coming from a 19" monitor.
Then famous Maurice came up with a 180 deg.
Tripple Whaooo factor. And a giant leap forward.
And here I am back and happy with just one proj. with  close to 20 feet diag.

Just saying to the new guys that they can do for a while with only one projector or big TV as there are so many other ways to spend money on the Sim.

Just debating the subject a bit beyond the classic TV/Projector choice.
 :D
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: jmlohrenz on February 09, 2018, 11:09:01 PM
This is an awesome thread for me to read.  Having just ventured into this expanded immersion from my current setup it is great to hear everyone's opinions on this topic.  I've been struggling to figure out where and what to do as there are so many different options / aspects to look at and I'm not sure where to start.  Very overwhelming!!  I've looked at building my own cockpit, even got plans from sim-samurai.  Looked at purchasing some that are for sale here.  Wondering what panels I should investigate, etc...

I've got nothing beneficial to add to this topic, but it is nice to see a civilized conversation / debate about a topic.  Many other online communities I belong to, feelings get hurt, people get ticked off, and topics get locked right away so thank you all for being mature enough to have different opinions!!
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: blueskydriver on February 10, 2018, 01:08:01 PM
I am guessing the discussions will soon change:

https://youtu.be/imIrem-9hEc

or

https://youtu.be/KHSdObeUdxI

John

Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Captbrian on February 13, 2018, 01:37:09 PM
Well I sure opened up a big can of worms here,  And I am Glad I did!   Because I had not found much in the way of 4K TV's Vs Projectors with Flight Sims.  But this has been so Awesome and gave me some real insight.  While I don't have the budget of some of you to run 5 high rigs at this point it sure gives me and some of the other newbies some resolve on which way to go!   Thanks so go much!  I am sure I will have many more questions.  :)
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Marco ERJ on February 14, 2018, 12:37:28 PM
Hi Jack,

How far from the shell does your screen sit? At 240" diagonal, how does the "patio screen" effect impact the quality of your visuals? How much do you notice the effect?
One of the things I've always wondered has been how large the projection should be in order to provide the feel that you are actually "siting in the real world" rather than looking at a projection screen. I know this is likely not too much of an issue; as others have pointed out here, we were all happily simming at some point using our little single monitors...meaning we eventually get used to whatever limitations are imposed on us. But since I am just starting to delve further into my plans for visuals, I want to believe I am pursuing the course that I believe will bring most satisfaction. And to your point, that may well be a single very large front view.
Thanks in advance!

Marco
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: jackpilot on February 14, 2018, 03:11:08 PM
No screen door effect from the pilot seat as the  projector is HD.
Distance to screen is about 10 feet.
The enclosed shell including backwall also helps to trick the brains...lol
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: RayS on February 14, 2018, 04:23:57 PM
Same here with Screen door effect. I just received my Optomo 1080p Darbies yesterday and did a dry run with 1 of them. Projectors will sit a bit closer to the screen with about 40% more resolution. Unless your nose is up against the display surface, any screen door effect is negligible. With eyes about 2 feet or more away, can't even tell.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Bob Reed on February 14, 2018, 04:28:01 PM
Same here with Screen door effect. I just received my Optomo 1080p Darbies yesterday and did a dry run with 1 of them. Projectors will sit a bit closer to the screen with about 40% more resolution. Unless your nose is up against the display surface, any screen door effect is negligible. With eyes about 2 feet or more away, can't even tell.

I would love to see some video! Always good to see what others are doing.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: RayS on February 14, 2018, 04:35:34 PM
I won't be installing these units until the man cave is finished. Probably late Summer.

James is going to help me ferry the Beech to a Beechcraft Service Center, located in Boise, Idaho... probably in a few more weeks.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Philip on February 14, 2018, 04:44:51 PM
This thread is really a great read. I'm awaiting the base dual connection for the real yokes and columns that I finally have and will pop it on ,hopefully if it arrives by next week. Then off to figuring out what to do for the 210/220fov screen framing (anyone have plans for that?), then getting a screen from Carl's place. Unsure of what is an ideal height, length, and best material that they offer for the best image on the screen. Ideally I'd like to look out the windows and up/down, without seeing the framing of the screen, and keep as full of an immersion as possible.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: jackpilot on February 14, 2018, 06:19:55 PM
Same here with Screen door effect. I just received my Optomo 1080p Darbies yesterday and did a dry run with 1 of them. Projectors will sit a bit closer to the screen with about 40% more resolution. Unless your nose is up against the display surface, any screen door effect is negligible. With eyes about 2 feet or more away, can't even tell.

I would love to see some video! Always good to see what others are doing.

If you scroll up this post look at the picture I posted. The outside view is gate 54 at Montreal Intnl,  no screen door effect
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: navymustang on February 14, 2018, 08:27:49 PM
Philip, go look at Northern Flight Sim and his screen. I have bought three rom him over the last two yeas and I really like the end result.

http://northernflightsim.com/circular-projection-screen/ (http://northernflightsim.com/circular-projection-screen/)
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Philip on February 15, 2018, 07:27:34 PM
Philip, go look at Northern Flight Sim and his screen. I have bought three rom him over the last two yeas and I really like the end result.

http://northernflightsim.com/circular-projection-screen/ (http://northernflightsim.com/circular-projection-screen/)

Yes thank you, I've seen his stuff. A neighbor of mine about a block away is actually a welder and has a side gig going on out of his garage. All he needs is the plans (still on the hunt for) and he will put it together for way less. Thank you though.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Philip on February 18, 2018, 11:44:41 PM
Would anyone have any insight on a good height to the 210ish fov projector screen? I'm thinking that the more screen that needs to fill in with an image, the less crisp and clear the image will be. Obviously the closer the projectors are to the screen the better, but trying to find the perfect balance. Ideally I would like to be able to look out of the windows and look up or down without seeing the frame of the screen. I've been reading anywhere between 5 - 7 feet in the height of the screen. The bigger the screen though, the less crisp and clear. I plan on using Flyelise, and am aware they have a screen designer program, but figured I'd see opinions of folks that have it up and running already.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: FredK on February 19, 2018, 09:13:39 AM
With all due respect....I don't think we want to go through the agony of the screen size debate again that has somewhat painfully been argued in this thread and in many others over the years.

The agonizing debate on this has only served to confirm the very obvious conclusion on this.....if you increase the size of your screen area, you decrease the sharpness of your resolution clarity.  Anything in the middle is a compromise at both ends.

In that regard.....only YOU can decide what is right for YOU!  There is no other correct answer to the question that can be given!

The best and pretty much unanimous advice that has been given here is that you need to do your own homework on this.  Experiment setting up your projector at different differences from a wall...any wall....to get a sense of what you are comfortable with.  Also, arrange visits to see other setups.

Fred K
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: jackpilot on February 19, 2018, 09:56:34 AM
Until affordable new tech appears ( as mentionned earlier here) basically all has been said on the subject (IMHO).
(Hey Nat, right ?)  :laugh:
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Sam Llorca on February 19, 2018, 12:16:44 PM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxc6cb3_y0w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxc6cb3_y0w)
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 19, 2018, 09:45:13 PM
Until affordable new tech appears ( as mentionned earlier here) basically all has been said on the subject (IMHO).

I know one new point. ;)
Using monitors/TV screens you will never be able to make life-like video/images like this:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/g5tJBUY5ol117AM8dgvd6JujFw3775AhPEzK11sIxwdN0Ihwb4McN5Uh_czaxLqQmYG9SIudBEKwV52wL_zxiAsS3uPAXk8menKh8JQB1Ix55r1hr0Qf7RETJvOhjoXAeJxq556Ys85Ql5sYNGbRmVXyqVoxoejs_GSze7-XIEYLaC1re2EZMy94DbegpZxevR2i8XA_d6zoLlt3XSGWrEukq_ZdAVDCYeY_dY3ErDLQHJ15RuarrPABE3_Hem7O8_DtBQjiope1UjXeNIdHEBy8nHE2MBSYtimRWJ6HZTU7J-ZtLtCX7bcIkLKcyiOFm1QTopBvueiTpo631aqQ21KeaRpt9Y_p_RtEiBHrNkNdKhZUVieOxftziG_urZIYIBsm_1VrP-Ht35QG9PBxz82etett4CgdRtlldH0vgis8pbpQ2A4OMxqr3sX2bwD3EVBF80Mg35gHb7aMXIFz9gGdIa-WKHTbJbmxCYCM2m7EPVBgdjWoyFtF0jSONLVDMO0cpDTbu-jPtBSDBO3nOG1X4jmea9fd_sVlcvgRGN0b-viMexPGdgXWLt6xUCcuCFfl9zKD-KL5-O-mp4Iri6DA5LggWFbdFVWLms0=w1399-h785-no)

So, one day real 737 captain contacted me through Instagram and said:
"Seen your videos, but could not believe my eyes... It can't be possible.. I really have no words.
Never seen anything like this. Fully functional simulator at home! Cannot tell apart from the real plane!"  :o

 :angel:

Nick

Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: XOrionFE on February 19, 2018, 11:04:35 PM
Opinions may vary....

https://youtu.be/h9iNzqmg8kY (https://youtu.be/h9iNzqmg8kY)
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 20, 2018, 09:11:07 AM
Opinions may vary....

https://youtu.be/h9iNzqmg8kY (https://youtu.be/h9iNzqmg8kY)

Sure they may  ;)

What's those black bars doing in a "real" picture? Hmmm, why every window has a different color hue?
The key word is the video/picture "undistinguishable" from the real view.
Yes, you  could make some pictures with TV screens, but only limited with narrow field of view, leaving the screen frames outside.

 :2cw:
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: XOrionFE on February 20, 2018, 10:03:32 AM
I am not going to argue with you Nick.   Your setup is truly gorgeous.   On mine hues are off only because I haven't tweaked them and much more prominent on video than in naked eye. In this video my back displays are also running at slightly lower settings than the front 3 because I only have i7 3960s with 660TI video cards running those while the front 3 run off an i7700 with a GTX 1080.   I would upgrade the back but video cards too expensive right now.

And, yes, the bezels are there but your brain loses sight of them really quick when flying....this has been discussed too many times to count.    Bottom line for me is that my 5 60" displays fully wrap the nose.  The only way you see top or bottoms is right up near the windows which yours will be not much different if using a 12ft radius or greater projector screen.  I prefer to SEE ALL the detail like tiny little lights, airport beacons at 20 miles, Vasis clear on approach, etc.    I don't like looking at a blurry washed out view that makes me feel like I need glasses that even today's best projectors still have and nobody is going to put lipstick on that pig for me as I have been there and done that.    TVs much easier to setup and maintain and don't go through bulbs.   Look better in daylight (no need to turn down the lights).   No warping/blending needed and not hit on frame rates due to the added layer.    Fits better in a smaller space and lower ceilings like typical basements (sorry we all cant have giant spaces with super tall ceilings needed for projection).  Some folks on this site will have no choice but to go with TVs.   You going to knock them?

Again, it has been said over and over and over.....each type has pluses and minus and the only determination of which is better will be in the eye of the beholder, as well as highly dependent on space, time, and budget of the individual.      Both in the end will provide endless hours of pleasure.

 ;)
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 20, 2018, 04:12:21 PM
>I am not going to argue with you Nick.   Your setup is truly gorgeous.   

Thanks Scott.

I am not going to argue either.  :dual:   ;D  You points are well taken and I completely agree with most of them.

My point was just on the some aspects of the visual side. There are things that using LCD screens just cannot do, if one wants to make video/pictures where the sim looks just like a real plane.

Here is what I am talking about:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-aCzJmo5eN0BoIRGh-NvL2ItNJB_v9CbvkPOI71Ph5HOeuvmcSyuvm1Zj973V1x8yMlU564trW7_zZa458LZ_-uB7tdK7XD552Xm25pRoYZ3DdjGaDOpc--RsafK6yOivEGtbUPJCPtmiVYQ9LAm0z8gSJ4Xyqwv9AS3oJWQXCZdTVK7BPGmknSHC3ELXThAsY_T-988UhDV27lI-XNL29Yvr6NCRf7YO1LMuduJgopod0-IGFT9ajVUFWUWTa4p8s_LRpcTAsJmd-LYTbwej8PHUClliZxeWz94gXXh1BREq1GYQNXx9LruO5SieKz9C79eppYT8q3aMrV2dfJdnS5Od6n0luqExbd8W3GkINCMah1KKC1OkxYewkxGC-ykfPtDTTpkGr7ujfFgzrW_-tyqyTjAOVyoizaTNW7wLASGwMkyHfmyU4ffKKKvWDTCNIFJTXpnx1m_eLadPf69GEtwMRQXaf939cyAoS3l6jAARHg-zhyoXikcIyUSGRG25P-wcl_9X582VEQ6Nx2YTbnXV64NZBeehe3fSCyDhdURpITUBzwRrphJfFDYMq5wVxqtAdg5UGqdzQsoySvEITHFtRThFyCSlUWcVTA=w1200-h675-no)


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/38H0EHNwJaftrg5ccjlANbFNAOdd80wBQhX0d96A102_0Q__ZEBvfoj-6Id9kD43xYaWUjGnLz7eDa4bBKPc2A-eW0pCjpGhK8IbE2y7ovVPHhDC_nd3X18apwugKfOkS4AsUKTp4-IZNt9YMWUq1SESRuL3gO2B8QSMgCSXuJkW5LwW9L5z8IO3GV5UvJ4Hi4bgrlS2pRz1DpKeDvFmTLaklYUqY3bK4JsMfqa_W9Jtujv-mrpNdCqZGjm6YJbUMztDlZdChvQ6ZzYP3ts7WFAmSwiZ8Wb6-5jUKZsCKr27gtFrLTlo2GZ0R2IQF9tGyhyaedbjiZ16NorXi4ujml-6sftJRRxRMilvsw6krnaIHuxS4cMQDasE7H5u5b8qv8COkSOukuNucEzf6ILHN-DL22kT-seAb0ZgYzr4PlPSY1S9kjum4npLWMpget0laSJMvgr2fibjQrhiFF09x9dRUJcz0UB75mqRiK5yHNItovUdVkt8THBiuFAY7oXBVxk9LB-JaOxbUVbdRYITlQ6QPRa07cod8ubIoOt43BDA9I_MDtm3ZFy9M3Iasa_k7ZmCzalHRcyeOOjQmf3DDj3RKsukxtKaINMieZY=w1200-h675-no)


Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 20, 2018, 04:14:54 PM
Yes, projectors have less clarity but the feeling of "being there" is just enormous. Especially when now I can afford 160 cm screen height instead of 124 cm (4 feet) that I had before. Now I can actually look down the side windows and still see the scenery passing by.

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/pUJ4e-K8G5YxAebYMQKUFmPBdtBcL-ty898XC5nGYDt0npr6bpxQ52Lp2zhKzTvxwfaOhIbCdFNtvcl0GGHUf4F3XLyHbtliIb7yL35brRUV6nD8KkDCBQ37AhnSF6FzqMAkQX9yaAo5ke9fvKNvpD3ZrSsohBSb2eaPmruTMrKnQ7f51zbpuHLqs2U-PyKjM84Qrlk6DnUVfsrygr_gIlTXoWV3OmYdtnliYojHXPJ2uePJZK1iz-HoocA0DFgZfR9gfaO-LHFX8iX8uvAm-rpPa01L9iLvVfuQQJwnySEbH7YRXd7lkx-hxLwJJT2s8gBbAj8PyfkIDJ8jA8iHuOwlpQR3zhal2LJqRfUR2_R30hiWoEhdHE096XK1o-w_IWesUhNODDTi5DWxLUpkmMt5sFshCwG0WRo8A0k-K8qCV3qr6qgqmAcslMqnmB9GADr8rtJpmaYfx-uCRnXC-SrBz_lsjZaMHNFrR6CppWuoA2TgkvKkFLlqlKCzOhLmuqrPWDte7taqIPpB9lNu4EGYS_BCeog2G5yr4W_p5Y15w-loLRFTVQSxluPCj_I0W-krUBAhYiwHtbFglumLiFvFqyhumT5WlrJzoYw=w1200-h675-no)

Yes, many people say they stop seeing the bezels after a while. To me, even thinnest seams (around 0.5 mm) that I have between screen sheets are not good enough.  I still use my old screen for now, just added some white cloth around to use the increased screen area since I switched to full HD projectors.  Going to get a bigger screen later.

(You can recognize the white cloth areas on this shot on the left and down side).

Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 20, 2018, 04:20:12 PM
Compared to the screenshots that I took the liberty to get from your video.  (Sorry for the screenshots blurriness, that really is not present there).

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/6QJHaM5Bt8FArsfBdRh_2KQnDIMB2TLiXp3TCgy93l4QJEncy5SmapYMM3YQutGe_b09N-2Zf5O54KeBaCZnQ7rjNopbcncmOWp-TsD62UfDfCbY11IrC0Ls50tqhhrUb4uCPAdgp0r63-_W-L4sNSByeZBTxN0yBDRTrfL7SDvgJ-gKX-83jPA27tmnH_82PlnxmH6JhGLHyJG8Yt4qpK44yz8NIueNEudd0f8VqAiE8j4t1ujFfHKyTUmlIe4Exv4RUg0ypI_pPjPM5jvTqKbFx-_BUCF2FzO31QrSEklUd-YNyyqiAaPyV1uGOtsAEfQ4BeGWG7dJNm6Uaz_0OAqnoXE8nEA7eq5ff6Tu0KnxwSlQ6l1Ey-QQtTaOiV1JC-JCam0WgCh2l3ozXpS_FuXz8oUz4u-3n-pHAcBRa-JWQkR3pANz2UTnNSnwsGaLdhOmSEoAU2toM6Tm8DHBwqq8ONVeSKx0I38MfYUvjN01mrFboJEjkoMlnEeJ8zTEQJhG2bZAM1ZjM9pyE5zKoH_OHiTdNrTSwjXUcFN_yYkt1oscA5VIwYBj7Rzv-lm1zXqvBiw-clB6iRrq2EQHKxQH9FueAHaVZB3p-_U=w1028-h822-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/CillzwUey9Tj1GjZHqJX2_tK055rvthUIph_HLRVVnOacY9occaxwHxsrwSnnNGFZe82bMwrJsOtWy0SCxU4hkQ5vyPO1nhgyFFIV5QRfPU-KjoOkJE1BN7wi5VLEXYSogBOeg9TYjiiNu_a-2w-2DhevkWUGzLoCtF9-8ckEa-UNBGnN7-LabxibgjL8Wjm87QlrPKtw7IyEHyI-Hx2-FzQ_qJlXbTQxQmIsdoRBIDugVu80TyptEHZeuTE-O_3pzUsYcrsY8UEhJEeXwg3jCbRXKeUUnfZ87Id-h0LzMpqrmmw6gp-Z59L1NNhoo8mSZGoMMZNr4W1dB1Jh762Zkir36Y-5zm2tnKOzIxAyYxSgnRtzM3RXo5lPMWQg9Zd3rxsJEiCBvAgKpuqkgMHKZ143Df4X1PdSmM17Bjti1Cf6Ex0p_-pv1Sf0--dj3xt6EWQ-dtbtUWwTjRmeLFeLt5OfAJieQ0m4iHDhxYWwclphYLk4oDKfpR18wZNZomca5ZlUnPwSMFE9OBLIyT3xgmGu30s83XfbUSeDfCJFysMSkwnFlAybe0I_n8OZ2BdYGyUZXOlq5C4EhGbMA5pqeIBUeiy72coTWSmG5Q=w1028-h822-no)

I understand that the monitors hue can be adjusted, however, besides the bezels,  hue/brightness of several LCD monitors will never look equal to the camera, because of the angles the camera sees flat screens from.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 20, 2018, 04:22:41 PM
With my new HD projectors immersion starts right when I enter the sim room  :)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c4fLJxVl4bDd7fZyasTfo7H_C-tOAI-RJzP4ZJVKAbOm32b8UTLEJDSXwVAWYpwAs87VcOXpR10VTmGddrRDq11sc0oUq4iZaOypLuRZd8oy1LAhbcVX3n8kAuqqh2ZeS-4kSF6wD-VrtgNM9ta76QQE3mqG45yyO9Y6oywHhrUE3ORP164ekpsXd86eMVhw6i301LRHDDokKnzh5t01_aTA7o6Vpn-7f1edcsnyWeCynvEm9RAVKRlk3-hrFMNf_hS1EFAi-0eWZ6NWtzFiEARXecJ5ugBY1Bsv291zUMWO8WtdXqEyJYX7TLDUgkIiwqJUIVNOYr_WbVoWREulbKltVnxS3xqroN41t8mBMqdmVXrXpIeo4DTqrV1vGcKMrjnH3bjQBX9zKw8B2rI0iaDMefktM7Aa0FrLC23SEHx7WsVFjZM7mv8La9vxSxt6PGvfv9IdO0WIYzkEY1jf6HDxxG4Lrz1eW2En7lpVf3Rs6h2E_JyKGC0fsl540S6f9rFHCi59Djug9AdLInTjxVJ6Hciy9aahyrf1mW3-_YHGDnWu5Zl0KVBb01uyHFbwz2gdai478DIqiovqtaOo0-g6tOL7NG_YUOBGth4=w1200-h675-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xAh7eAnk0hkJ_AK0OydeCFeud7LHnBn20nOmCES10TTk8f78D-yz5KJNSP6pMDuxHvdXHc0a05e71avEEDWiW9kx6RLfcW_j7eNMQXsNnsNikf4Zrb4eeeMvnSzQuCgWpbh7Cy-eUsYbvsWI1GLahtaphFVAfahOsPTDq_wfRzIPmphLAABvY-iL8If_cgfutBF_IRnUbpej1tZZgZhb2w4nlTL0-fWxSwvmDRImzIAzxp0P0_6P7sHf70CHf7UZK4xOMT5bbM6Nz0prma7hRjEnNSOM7ksSZCpwHF35u-bLu3gds87k-5YM-7nucG2HdPqvlRNbWS5zWvEpA23aXN9D3xbKT_U-Dpj_F4vQd3sdVcuQnaZf1qLwBGwbmnFgWIkb9w_4zJ00s5R9SVSvTBu42sg88T0OgyzdsE1wm3i3rxCIBoPaBaJPoKbfsJ5jfMSNH4NWkzBGfeIyLh2pA1sHb1xFbwO2_E_jebXVe8kCdw1HuvSrTmieC1nRIh9GPqlna3f6h-cDQDPJILwwzkanz-XvjKo8h835bhAugLXWxBbD5tbdLdtcp-ihu5sxXHLXgXq8B27WjtExbDGjmmNlwjnF1SFKNnaWC1U=w1200-h675-no)

Sorry for multiple posts - could not do it in one because of the long Google Photo links.

 :2cw:

Nick

Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Captbrian on February 20, 2018, 04:54:34 PM
Ok,  thanks all for sharing the Awesome Info.  When I started this post I had no idea what can of worms I was opening!   

So I do want to ask this and maybe I should just start another new post.   Has anyone used USB Portable monitors for things like your PFD or ND?   They run using Windows for the rendering and power from USB.   I just am wondering how well they would work for things like Displays.   ASUS MB168B is the one I am looking at.  Since they are not using the GPU I would think they could be a really cool way to go.  I did find some info on it.  https://www.mimomonitors.com/pages/why-choose-usb (https://www.mimomonitors.com/pages/why-choose-usb)

Just wondering if anyone has tried them.


Thanks

Brian
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Bob Reed on February 20, 2018, 05:51:18 PM
Ok,  thanks all for sharing the Awesome Info.  When I started this post I had no idea what can of worms I was opening!   

So I do want to ask this and maybe I should just start another new post.   Has anyone used USB Portable monitors for things like your PFD or ND?   They run using Windows for the rendering and power from USB.   I just am wondering how well they would work for things like Displays.   ASUS MB168B is the one I am looking at.  Since they are not using the GPU I would think they could be a really cool way to go.  I did find some info on it.  https://www.mimomonitors.com/pages/why-choose-usb (https://www.mimomonitors.com/pages/why-choose-usb)

Just wondering if anyone has tried them.


Thanks

Brian

Trevor will have to jump in here as he is using them on his side views. They have a place. Just don't except them to run your main view.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: RayS on February 20, 2018, 06:41:18 PM
I know of a few builders using USB monitors for their secondary systems like avionics.

I know one in particular who sometimes struggles with the displays occasionally popping up out of order. re: the PFD is now on the lower EICAS, ND is now where the PFD should be...

This is mostly anecdotal though, as it may be something else coming into play.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: XOrionFE on February 20, 2018, 07:14:23 PM
With my new HD projectors immersion starts right when I enter the sim room  :)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/c4fLJxVl4bDd7fZyasTfo7H_C-tOAI-RJzP4ZJVKAbOm32b8UTLEJDSXwVAWYpwAs87VcOXpR10VTmGddrRDq11sc0oUq4iZaOypLuRZd8oy1LAhbcVX3n8kAuqqh2ZeS-4kSF6wD-VrtgNM9ta76QQE3mqG45yyO9Y6oywHhrUE3ORP164ekpsXd86eMVhw6i301LRHDDokKnzh5t01_aTA7o6Vpn-7f1edcsnyWeCynvEm9RAVKRlk3-hrFMNf_hS1EFAi-0eWZ6NWtzFiEARXecJ5ugBY1Bsv291zUMWO8WtdXqEyJYX7TLDUgkIiwqJUIVNOYr_WbVoWREulbKltVnxS3xqroN41t8mBMqdmVXrXpIeo4DTqrV1vGcKMrjnH3bjQBX9zKw8B2rI0iaDMefktM7Aa0FrLC23SEHx7WsVFjZM7mv8La9vxSxt6PGvfv9IdO0WIYzkEY1jf6HDxxG4Lrz1eW2En7lpVf3Rs6h2E_JyKGC0fsl540S6f9rFHCi59Djug9AdLInTjxVJ6Hciy9aahyrf1mW3-_YHGDnWu5Zl0KVBb01uyHFbwz2gdai478DIqiovqtaOo0-g6tOL7NG_YUOBGth4=w1200-h675-no)

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/xAh7eAnk0hkJ_AK0OydeCFeud7LHnBn20nOmCES10TTk8f78D-yz5KJNSP6pMDuxHvdXHc0a05e71avEEDWiW9kx6RLfcW_j7eNMQXsNnsNikf4Zrb4eeeMvnSzQuCgWpbh7Cy-eUsYbvsWI1GLahtaphFVAfahOsPTDq_wfRzIPmphLAABvY-iL8If_cgfutBF_IRnUbpej1tZZgZhb2w4nlTL0-fWxSwvmDRImzIAzxp0P0_6P7sHf70CHf7UZK4xOMT5bbM6Nz0prma7hRjEnNSOM7ksSZCpwHF35u-bLu3gds87k-5YM-7nucG2HdPqvlRNbWS5zWvEpA23aXN9D3xbKT_U-Dpj_F4vQd3sdVcuQnaZf1qLwBGwbmnFgWIkb9w_4zJ00s5R9SVSvTBu42sg88T0OgyzdsE1wm3i3rxCIBoPaBaJPoKbfsJ5jfMSNH4NWkzBGfeIyLh2pA1sHb1xFbwO2_E_jebXVe8kCdw1HuvSrTmieC1nRIh9GPqlna3f6h-cDQDPJILwwzkanz-XvjKo8h835bhAugLXWxBbD5tbdLdtcp-ihu5sxXHLXgXq8B27WjtExbDGjmmNlwjnF1SFKNnaWC1U=w1200-h675-no)

Sorry for multiple posts - could not do it in one because of the long Google Photo links.

 :2cw:

Nick

Very nice Nick.   As long as you don't mind daytime flying in the dark ::)  Seriously though, I would be just as happy with that setup as mine.   It is very nice for sure and would love to fly in it someday.     

One question, why is there this weird blurry circle at the bottom as you look down?   Is that a P3D thing or a warping thing.  I can see a definite edge to it where it looks like it gets very blurry looking down.   I can also definitely see the blending areas....I guess your eyes probably forgive those much like mine forgive bezels.

I will also say, you have so much nicer blue sky in P3D than what X-Plane has.   X-Plane generally sucks on daytime eyecandy but night time.....different story..


Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Bob Reed on February 20, 2018, 07:25:54 PM
I know of a few builders using USB monitors for their secondary systems like avionics.

I know one in particular who sometimes struggles with the displays occasionally popping up out of order. re: the PFD is now on the lower EICAS, ND is now where the PFD should be...

This is mostly anecdotal though, as it may be something else coming into play.

This has to do with Windows not being able to see a monitor that is setup. Windows "re-stacks" the monitors when one goes missing.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Captbrian on February 20, 2018, 07:43:53 PM
That's what I was planing on using them for was just my displays.  Still using my GTX1080 for my Scenery.  But would love to hear how it's working for others. 

Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 20, 2018, 08:59:12 PM

Very nice Nick.   As long as you don't mind daytime flying in the dark ::)  Seriously though, I would be just as happy with that setup as mine.   It is very nice for sure and would love to fly in it someday.     

One question, why is there this weird blurry circle at the bottom as you look down?   Is that a P3D thing or a warping thing.  I can see a definite edge to it where it looks like it gets very blurry looking down.   I can also definitely see the blending areas....I guess your eyes probably forgive those much like mine forgive bezels.

Oh, I don't mind  daytime flying in the dark  :idiot: - I have fill-in lamps behind me that provide enough ambient light inside.

That blurry circle - It's neither P3D, nor warping.  As I said above, it's just a temporary white cloth thrown in below the actual screen, until I set up a new bigger screen. Similar cloth is hanging left of the screen.

Yes, the blending areas are somewhat visible sometimes, depending on sky color - they almost disappear closer to evening fly time. Wish I had more control on them - I tried the adjustments. Interesting, that with old 1280x800 projectors blending with the same Immersive Calibration Pro was much better, without that brighter blue hue that shows up practically in all sim screenshots that I've seen on the Net.

Nick
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 20, 2018, 09:09:29 PM
  Has anyone used USB Portable monitors for things like your PFD or ND?   They run using Windows for the rendering and power from USB.   I just am wondering how well they would work for things like Displays.   ASUS MB168B is the one I am looking at.  Since they are not using the GPU I would think they could be a really cool way to go.  I did find some info on it.  https://www.mimomonitors.com/pages/why-choose-usb (https://www.mimomonitors.com/pages/why-choose-usb)

Just wondering if anyone has tried them.


Thanks

Brian

Three out of my 6 MIP monitors work on USB to VGA - no problems with that.
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: 727737Nut on February 20, 2018, 09:28:36 PM
Nick, Scott, both setup's look amazing.................but....

Nick, To answer your statement on the Hue being off from TV to TV, i have noticed that about Scott's video's but since I have been there in person I can tell you this.  In person there is no perceptible difference in colors and or gama.  It all matches quite well. 

Nick, since you have these latest high end PJ's, why not take my 100.00 challenge I put out there for projector users?


Night time with room lights on and cockpit lights on, i'll even lower the distance down to a 10 mile final.  I must be able to see the 4 VASI lights and distinguish number of reds and whites.  For TV's its 15 miles hehe   

(for those who don't know, I went away from PJ's because I got tired of gray night scenes and blend areas that looked like sunspots)

As for the screen shot above that Nick took,  hate to say it but my cheap 4K tv's just blow away the PJ's for clarity.  With my ortho scenery and 4K you can count rocks from 15000ft!   To each their own, just enjoy what you have  ;D :2cw:

Peace
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 20, 2018, 09:44:17 PM
I know of a few builders using USB monitors for their secondary systems like avionics.

I know one in particular who sometimes struggles with the displays occasionally popping up out of order. re: the PFD is now on the lower EICAS, ND is now where the PFD should be...

This is mostly anecdotal though, as it may be something else coming into play.

It's even worse when it happens with the main displays. :)

Recently I had some glitch and my 4th monitor (besides 3 projectors), which I use for all sim applications control, disappeared. So I could not set it back up as I did not see anything on it and could not grab any application by the title bar.
Ended up running Windows in safe mode, removing the NVidia drivers completely and reinstalling them. But then Windows and NVidia renumbered displays - seems they have their own ways for setting up displays. I rearranged them in the same order as before.
Next, I could run the sim reassigning Display IDs, and it was fine.
Then I decided to adjust warping, and could not run the necessary  Immersive Calibration Pro project properly - second and third views changed places.
The only way to fix this, besides redoing the warping completely,  was to reassign projectors in  Immersive Calibration Pro server in its first screen that appears when you open your existing project.

 :idiot:
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 20, 2018, 10:11:20 PM
Nick, Scott, both setup's look amazing.................but....

Nick, To answer your statement on the Hue being off from TV to TV, i have noticed that about Scott's video's but since I have been there in person I can tell you this.  In person there is no perceptible difference in colors and or gama.  It all matches quite well. 

Nick, since you have these latest high end PJ's, why not take my 100.00 challenge I put out there for projector users?


Night time with room lights on and cockpit lights on, i'll even lower the distance down to a 10 mile final.  I must be able to see the 4 VASI lights and distinguish number of reds and whites.  For TV's its 15 miles hehe   

(for those who don't know, I went away from PJ's because I got tired of gray night scenes and blend areas that looked like sunspots)

As for the screen shot above that Nick took,  hate to say it but my cheap 4K tv's just blow away the PJ's for clarity.  With my ortho scenery and 4K you can count rocks from 15000ft!   To each their own, just enjoy what you have  ;D :2cw:

Peace

Hi Rob,

Yes, the monitors hue may be adjusted and look right for the eye in person, but the thing I am pointing to - is that  hue/brightness of several LCD monitors will never look equal to the camera, because of the different angles the cameras see flat screens from.
So, in video/pictures monitors hue/brightness will be always off, and will not look like in "real thing". Beside the bezels.  ;D

Some of my sim videos were (mis ;D )taken for the "real thing" many times.

As I said above, I got the call from real 737 captain who could not believe his eyes.  :angel:

For the $100 challenge I will see what  I can do  from 8 miles ;)

I am not arguing about 4k clarity - but beware - it may make the view unrealistic.   :P
BTW, with new Optoma GT1080 Darbee the night is not grey anymore.


Nick







Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: jmlohrenz on February 21, 2018, 12:08:37 AM
Nick,
 I know a picture won't do it justice, but can you post any night shots?  I'm considering starting with a single Optoma Darbee as you mentioned and am curious what the night flying looks like.

Thanks,
Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 21, 2018, 12:41:21 AM
Nick,
 I know a picture won't do it justice, but can you post any night shots?  I'm considering starting with a single Optoma Darbee as you mentioned and am curious what the night flying looks like.

Thanks,

Sure can. :)

Here is one of night test videos - nothing special - was trying to find aurora lights in winter night, but did not succeed yet. :)

https://youtu.be/26jGHPZnpQk


And here is one of the dusk pictures:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/T-YVJW-fos2yBks07sbod0y5DhZRqccM8dBArT-d8mo8OgPo1xcJTRrPfegATXGMBM7KRJbN07dTlhWx-zkNuY3ogPmso8Ihn_kb4P-I8M7ReBIO4U6yh0AtAoxjzaMVyrq3lt4GQlARLxmHPi6iTwkDUEvSvdhNtK3oi1NtNSlxXUvnxyyZI6vuswjFRibLdNRIu0JUmf9GO_Fu1XDFhUJ1s8ijeQP2IgvfNV1PD3JSaxo2VXrE6vxpVD3QIIRnSsdf26Byv0B8-yNjJx66R4p2AxnLaZRqF-OgwYaFwuoA9uUQORCzGMSJuIRvntllPvc7witjCG7LHPq6YU5eNe0CghaJ1cDhxpmEVcwrhXIizbSUKKlFxgFIrjlA7HzPWEx9ah1Mlvrrg060duPAdiPJW85f4kUQqqSTwDb0zVZ2oGC0y8EX43Tkp4txz7jPnJ5BlAKbeFfU3UNxleMGaBvYvep5gY6lnQZ3eBi5Wdasd4-Fzz8uIts7QzJb7m9w2YhFN9bweLKU7XmATIipDAAc0_s6n6Xxb94NXaD4jJDl9sdFn1oNcy9r4_vNlpRsEmOvmqYQSO5pIhWqg3t8J4w07ldIBfcH_GqUYoE=w1399-h787-no)

Title: Re: Projectors or 4K Monitors?
Post by: Flying_Fox on February 21, 2018, 10:37:36 AM
Nick,
 I know a picture won't do it justice, but can you post any night shots...

Thanks,

Couple more night shots:

(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/LXfewGHF4oxUiH068i-kvkqVJ8d4ZTftULjSTSsHATekpKHLg8Nz7J04Dfxz4N7uVDrSQ5cDhC3VkS9mq4z1b6ZW9-m9DjzGdOFEzpD4VsSSDueoASfQ5YCnqbAs63a21QnQQpMXAqufDs-QVhAe9muF-fMBfMlWBbWzXnMbSg4k2DfLmRV-dnYsL3qgbQd07r110dADwtU5ltwygnK_RQcH1hQO-8H_P8DmdaEJrw9zGccJKdRvqLb_H1vze2VZ_iZu-B4alWPCELZMI3ux8a4um1t8Fl4zcPI_cf4GqssjEE8VoNAZrPxdfALCO2Z-kffyiostLLIScHuuNbfVVsSX7v-s-5ycLNEC_fwHkfAhznHGIVzZgiqDt2fnyMy7cuyJkloxNfWID0JNV4JaFRhAraZzkmtFyvmzKAshAyFI90f5mAK9_wGB87unYdboLGNIft2iwe2lnzIf3D3BoQdOkixT_arlkvcH5DBM6AZvdPdFzdYPDG5525MNcZ_Ro4_ZPWRTOMrxmeqqtSfEnBnq54MVeyHyxm6ITIpHaNJeXBfF33zZ_1bCQu9f0OGjVMjJblYpc2O6RQUwHZexrkJxDHpJgGat4nYt9Bc=w1200-h675-no)


(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/ZhqmmI5mUp6axPmiMIGtxYQ00kjtcPWuS_N0peTRnCo5Q2pSrEkqCQTiPdTmUxfhQe-wMSs8Itb1I5ZsT2rRndGmKxXb4f-baVdfcvn_H0KZMaD3ubC36p2CIHaF5u1HyKrxjBJ1FPZ4Q4q5Fim-kouqBza-0FykmCV_DzfFkQ_Vhi4DSpPnO9S9PGMhjdTQOOcP5Vqa124qISJJHRtgIyGQRQ3zwE8n4j0J1UMNH0SGT-NwVTERoAnfHaeFB0x_57FQ7zLNRL1FG-34yRXI8KgiABctNB8mO7jROkSHYPwzGV04hvtOFn8sNCiC9bO-n1-PmSLnNrN08vblfbKmdBO03LLAWETf8MYzP1M0WISzGVvItXiOS2gSDhJDILN3QDOM081bHE2J0GAWLuxfGVXIKa_t3EqOgv25gVyikB9zIy4-Mvb1Z6yxPLklnKdWKQR8f2SQpuobjxVDM5J0bIAkcjEIJfcJalz-ASmn2IwYDFNfZWebROLDFd2uahoGh65siuibnRMXGGBMZcCYFrbbVke9sUbaRd7lIOW72_dr1kCvuOmGxTseosDJSNclAZf01qpvyCAqDqPNYUIwAME-HVWO4NJ2exvUJeo=w1200-h675-no)