My new Projector testing and thoughts...

[XOrionFE]

Well,
I found a great alternative projector to the Benq MP782 STs that have been talked about a lot.  It is the Mitsubishi EW230U-ST.   Almost identical spec to the BenQs.    I brought them home yesterday from the office and started trying one out.    I have to say it was quite cool seeing the size screen I could throw under 6 ft off the wall.  Filled up my whole darn wall practically!!!    110" wide at about 4.5 ft and no shadows from the shell.   Amazing.    The DLP was crystal clear and night time in full darkness was pretty good as well.   These will definitely provide an excellent wrap around visual similiar to what Ivar has done.   Now here is where my head starts spinning.....

While testing the projection I had the projector hooked to my computer with a another smaller 22" lcd in the cockpit with me (duplicate screen view).   I kept comparing the projected view to the little monitor view and having been a user of 3 22" LCDs on TH2GO in my previous setup and on my testbed 737 setup I couldnt help but compare and notice the complete loss of contrast and crispness on the projector.    I know this has been discussed time and time again.    Although the projectors are top notch they just lose it because of having every pixel blown up so much.    Also with DLP you get these little tiny squares you can see much like looking through a window screen (very hard to notice but there nonetheless).    So after seeing the 3 60" LCD setup in use at FDS posted on their site I cant help but going back and forth on the two options in my mind.    I think you give up immersion factor from sense of motion in going to lcds but you give up a lot of clearity and contrast going with projectors......ughhhh

Maurice, you sat there and I would really like to hear more of your impression.   I know from experience that the LCD bezels disappear from your mind while flying so not worried about that.  I am mainly interested in your thoughs on immersion and sense of motion with the 3 60" LCDs you sat in front of while flying.    Really hard to get that feel from watching youtube.     I almost would love to grab a flight over to Toronto before they break this thing down and check it out....

Scott

[jackpilot]

Hey Scott...

You are torturing yourself.

Even with the projectors, the quality of the outside view we have blows the doors off any Zillion $ pro-sim.
If your mind is able to erase the LCD frames, don't you think it will soon forget the soft pixels!

And after all, we are not flyig VFR!

You mastered the distance challenge, live happily together with your brand new projectors !


Have a great one Pal !!!

PS: Mau is on the brink of "Benqing"  his Sim into the ground ...if you tell him now that
1) you managed to get three identical projectors
2) you contemplate discarding them for LCDs

Mau will eject in flight...for sure!!       

[XOrionFE]

haha....DONT EJECT MAU!

Your right Jack of course.     The key is probably not to be looking at an lcd while looking at the projectors.

I will say I just did another little test circuit around KSFO and it is really not to bad at altitude.   It is when you come in for the landing that it starts looking bad.   Runway is just not well defined and even looking at runway and taxiway signs is painful because they are so pixelated.   I am also throwing onto a wall a little further than my screens will be and surface is not perfect.   I may go buy a 4x8 sheet of white wallboard to temporarily throw up in from for some more testing.

Scott

[shaneb]

Hey Scott,

Get the wallboard and try (may have to paint it flat white as you will get some reflection from even a semi glossy surface) . . as Jack said, the pixels will disappear with use.  I've been using a projector for over a year now and unless I concentrate on looking for the pixels I do not see them.

[dharrison]

Scott,

I say projector but I will be able to tell better when I see it 

That said, we should look into some of the special projector wall paint that may assist in improving conrast.

Google it!!!

Don

[XOrionFE]

Well after more tests I can say for sure that the best thing to do with these is to pull them in closer.   With the projector at 2.5 feet from the wall I was throwing a 72" diagnol screen and the pixels are much more compact and therefore a much better view.  The further away from the screen the worse the problem gets as they get magnified.  I suspect this is the case with all projectors although probably more pronounced on Short throw since they make such a huge picture.  BTW - I also got some pure white wallboard tonight to shoot against and although a little on the glossy side it made a huge improvement.   If I go with projectors I would definitely paint with the special paint.    However, that said, my problem has nothing to do with contrast.   It is mainly pixel bloat which one can do absolutely nothing about because it is a size of screen thing.

Anyway, I probably could live with it in the 2.5-3.5 ft throw range but still I must say that looking at an LCD (I have a 32 inch LCD I run on my small Mustang sim) the view is much much much better than a projector.   Small details are clear.   I kind of feel like there is no value to getting the extra eye candy out of FSX and scenery like Megascenery and Cloud textures only to waste it because of the quality a projector lacks in clearity and detail.

More tests tomorrow....going to sleep on it....

Scott

[Joe Lavery]

I have to say I've been following this thread with great interest. I'm not in a position to change to projectors yet but have been pondering this issue myself. I use three 19" LCD monitors on a TH2GO at the moment and like Scott I don't want to lose the detail you get on an approach or even while taxiing.
Some of the latest airports from people like Aerosoft are brilliantly detailed, it would be a pity to lose that.

So I look forward to your final decision Scott.  Incidentally what native resolution are your projectors?

Joe.

[mpl330]

Feeling your pain Scott!

I went from 3 x lcd screens to an Optoma ST projector, when I first tried it I was really disappointed 
My AI aircraft with the Lcd screens were fairly detailed but with the projector they were just big "blocks" of colour. As I run Nvidia GPU I have downloaded and now run NHancer which is a utility for these cards and that seems to have solved a number of the resolution issues - I thought with the size of pixels I would never get a detailed view with the projector but it did make a difference.

I still have the 'grid' effect and the detail still isnt quite what I expected but as I have not done any flying for a while now I need to re-assess whether it is good enough. One thing I did notice was that the better quality payware airports did still look good though...

Cheers
Mike

[XOrionFE]

The projectors are native WXGA with a resoluton of 1280x800 Native and that is what I am currentlly running on my card which is a GTX 275.    I do run nHancer and this system is totally tweaked based on Nick Needhams WIndows 7 FSX tuning guidelines.     The same system running with my TH2GO and 3 22" LCDs looks absolutely stunning (as Don Harrison can attest).   It is when you go from the small 22" lcd to a 70+ size diagnol projection that it looses its luster.

My conclusion is that it is probably just a pure taste thing and a give and take.   Projectors equal larger view for less money and more overall immersion but lack of fine detail and clearity.    LCDs monitors offer tens of thousands times higher contrast ratios and becuase of their comparitive size and even higher pixel resulutions can be much much more pleasing to the eye on views.   But they lack in size, are about double the price (in the 60" range) and cannot be wrapped around.

Scott

[Maurice]

Sorry Scott, but I can't really help you too much here since I haven't seen any image yet from my BenQ projectors as they are still unopened in the box in case I have to sell them. Before that, I had an Optoma projector with about same specs, and at a distance of about 8 ft from the screen, I thought the image was great although the screen size was only about 60" wide. With a bigger image, I have no idea what it would have looked like.

Having said that, I would not even entertain the idea of switching to LCD TVs for the following reasons.

1.   I really want 220 degrees or so field of view and that would require five 60" inch screens & five FS PCs with Wideview and that is way too expensive for my blood (which would surely get spilled if I mentioned that to my wife.)

2.   Although the image & sense of immersion were quite good with the LCD screens, I was still aware they were screens with those big bezels and although you learn to ignore them, they are still there so all & all, I think I would rather see pixels than frames (I may change my mind after I see a blown up image from the BenQ projectors)

3.   If those projectors are good enough for Ivar, I'm pretty sure the projectors will be good enough for me. But if Ivar decides to switch to LCD screens, then for sure my entire sim will be up for sale this time.

4. I have flown a real 737 simulator with older collimated displays and believe you me, I`m 100% sure our visuals with projectors will be miles above the visuals in that simulator (not talking here about the latest generations of Level D simulators although I suspect the scenery in ours is still much better)

Now, aren't you even more confused  ?

Maurice

[XOrionFE]

Thank you Maurice,

That is great insight.    I continue my testing but will likely stick with projectors.    At altitude they are fine and I must say that the nighttime sky and horizon is awesome and I really think blows the lcd monitors out the window.   It is simply gorgeous (especially with a full moon and clouds).     It is down low in detail where they are not so good.    I can live with it I think.   The thing that bothers me most is that hard lines like runway edges almost shimmer as you move by them because of the bloated pixels.   Maybe there is a way to tweak this effect.     You are definitely right about price.   Cant beat projectors when it comes to that even factoring in Nthusim.

Scott

[ivar hestnes]

Hi guys

Some input from me based on my experience.

I can also see pixels on my screen. Because 1280x800 on a 3 meter wide screen 2.3 meters infront of you, thats very large compared to have the same resolution on a monitor two feet away. It will always be a choice of a pest or a kolera. But when I am flying with this setup..... I dont notice the pixels, other if I am trying to focus on it. The immersion is the most important. Ideal would be to have projectors with the same short throw but better resolution. As far as I know it does not excist within a reasonable price-limit, and it would tax the computer even more. So, this is a very "good value for the money" setup.

My screen is still not painted with a proper paint. Just been experimenting with some cheap stuff. So my image is a little blurry because of that. When I did my initial tests on a temporary curve, on a special fabric used for trucks cargo holds, I was blown away. The pixels was not so visible, and the colours was absolutely stunning. But that fabric gave me unwanted hot-spots. Not easy......

I had LCD projectors earlier, and the big advantage of DLP is when flying nighttime. I have had a few simbuilder friends visiting me this weekend (Volante, ENKB and NAX228) , and last night we did night-flights. And yeah..... amazing experience. The projectors dont light up the room at all. Black is almost black on the screen. No exessive light from the projectors. Inside the cockpit, it was dark, and we dimmed up the IBL panels, and flew for several hours. We could see the clouds even when flying in the dark. When flying with the LCD-beamers, nightflying was a poor experience, cause the black was like a grey soup. Not fun at all...

I can easily live with the pixel thing. Because the immersion is so great anyway. Last night we also did something cool. We were at a gate, and refueled from the sim-avionics CDU software. So we refueled from empty left wing to full left wing, and the plane went down instantly on that side. We could feel the movement.... You will not get this immersion properly on a monitor with bezels. It is just not the same thing. But of course the image quality on a monitor beats a projector big time. Pest or kolera...

I am looking forward to see how you succeed with your choice of projectors Scott. And Maurice... you are up for a treat

[XOrionFE]

Thanks Ivar.    After more testing this morning I have reached that conclusion as well and projectors it is.    Now on to screen building but first final all important calculations on paper!   I will be picking your brain a little more Ivar when I get to modifying the FS files.   I have the concept from your speech at FDS but may have a few questions anyway.

Thank you again for your valuable insight as well.   And yes, the night flying with DLP Rocks!!

Scott

[jackpilot]

Could it be too short a throw projectors ? tradeoff short vs quality???
Does'nt make much sense but I have a sort of regular projector and I like the image.

Do you remember this picture posted somewhere else (  )

[XOrionFE]

It is possible.   I can see some of the effect I am having even in your picture.  If you look along the runway edges it is not a smooth line.  It is somewhat stepped.   

BTW - After a lot of drawing and calculation I just determined that for my setup I can only practically do a 195 degree wrap.    It is amazing when you draw out how many angles, distances and variables come into play and Ivar is right when he says you must draw it out and to scale.   For me (and probably anyone using the BenQ mp782-st or Mitsubishi ew230u-st) in order to fit inside a 6ft radius circle from the eyepoint and still have the projectors fit on the same plane (not stacked on top of each other) I had to squeeze the angles of each down to 65 instead of 75 for a total of 195.    This is just the way it works out with projection calculations and drawing.    I may be able to squeeze 200 but at 210 my projectors start overlapping.   Solution is to increase radius or decrease degrees of visual.

Anyway, for me I will be happy with 195 and it kind of works well because the throw distance ends up at 38" which should yield smaller pixels and better view.

Time to go get some materials....

Scott

[jackpilot]

Did U try playing with the video settings (Mip mapping etc) ?

[ETomlin]

Do a search for Black Widow screen paint. That's what my plan is for the final color of the screen. I have the materials, just not the effort put in yet to paint it. Plain primer white for the past 2 years! :-/

By the way Scott, I was going to pretty much tell you the same things that Jack and Ivar did. Your problem is due mainly to flying for so long on those blasted high contrast/resolution LCD monitors. Going to projectors, as has been discussed, is different. That's it- just different. However,  I think that with your budget  and ingenuity you will be able to make it work to satisfaction in the long run.

Now, what I DREAM of is flexible LCD/LED  screen that can be bent over a 4-6 foot radius and about 12' long and 3' high and affordable....that would be cool to try. And naturally, a way to run our views into it. It will come to pass one day. I remember playing Chuck Yeager's Fighter sim way  back in the early 90's and wishing I had some boards with switches on them. I had NO idea we'd all be doing what we are now, and to the level we are. Fun to think back like that, huh?

[ivar hestnes]

It is invented Eric. Oled.

Not seen the sizes we need though 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8S8tbQMp2k

[saabpilot]

HI GUYS,

I have used TH2G and 3 19" LCD screens until recently.
Now I have got a BenQ 782ST and project the front view on a 100" (220 cm wide) projection screen from 1.10 meters throw distance.

I will never go back to the tiny LCD:s again.

I would like to have a three projector setup, but my simroom is too small for that.
The immersion factor with TH2G and 3 LCD:s is not there even if the detail of course is ten times sharper.
With the single projector I feel a very nice immersion factor.

Since most of the flight is, at least in my sim, made at FL350 the details does not matter much.   
The BenQ gives a fabulous picture considering the its WXGA format and the 100% bigger picture.
The only slight backdraw is in night flights, but IRL not much to see then either 

I first tried the Benq on a white wall, but it really needs a superflat projection screen for the picture to look good.  I believe one of the special paints will achieve that too, but have not tried that route.

Best from Sweden
Bjorn

www.boeing737sim.se

[XOrionFE]

Thank you Bjorn

BTW - your work is beautiful.  I have visited your site many times and you have great craftmanship.    I would like you to do a post on your firehandles creation sometime.   I would like to know where you got the read plastic as  I have been unable to find any.

Anyway, not to derail my own thread but just wanted to mention to everyone to visit your site and take a peak if they havent.

Scott

[ETomlin]

Bjorn, as Scott said- Excellent looking project! I wanted to say that I read your comment on your site about a single forward view with black curtains on the side. I have done this, and it is well worth the time and effort. In fact, I have a black curtain that is hanging over the top of the sim too, so essentially you only see either the inside of the flightdeck or the screen in front of you. The black 'blots out' any thing else and it really helps you with immersion. One day I will update to 3 projectors or 3 very large displays but it's not my main focus for now.

To end here on another note to Scott regarding visuals- I had flown the desktop sim for about 9 years and then got my first LJ45 sim up and running (Im on my 2nd one) and when I made the switch the first time from CRT monitors (even sharper to me that LCD) to a 800x600 projector, naturally I noticed the lack of resolution, etc. but the SIZE was AWESOME. That's what makes it so real to me. The size.

[NAX228]

I'll just have to mention one thing i struggled with when setting up my projector. It took me a few days to discover the solution of pixelated mountains and other edges... it was to simple and therefor overlooked.
In FSX display settings you can choose not only your graphichscard but also witch output of the card.
I had to change this value to the 2nd option and then the pic became OK.

[saabpilot]

Hi Scott,

Thanks for your kind comments.

The red plastic we had "on the shelf" sort of speak, so I really have forgotten the origin.   
However, many local plastic manufacturers are in the Yellow Pages - look maybe under "plastic".  They are usually willing to hand over the small piece you need for free - as a sample - when asked nicely 

The handles are as of now only connected with 30 deg rotaries so not 100% accurate, we will enhance them later to "liftable" handles with a turn stop as per the real ones.

Best,
Bjorn

[ETomlin]

Would this red plastic work? https://www.estreetplastics.com/Transparent_Red_Plexiglass_Sheet_s/57.htm

[XOrionFE]

Thanks Eric.   I ordered some and will give it a shot.   

Scott