Front View - Projector or Monitors

[bagpiper]

Hi Team
As this is my first post I hope you don't mind a little intro as well. I have been considering building a cockpit for about 10 years. I have at long last built my wife's scrap-booking room in the basement so she's happy. First hurdle out of the way.  Now I have her old room for a cockpit. So! I was watching Angus' wonderful video where he uses wideview with a 7 monitor front view. Then I read that Trevor is thinking about using the same multi monitor solution. I know this gets asked all the time about which is better and it really is about how much you can afford. However I was interested as to why Trevor wanted to move to this solution. While projectors are an expensive option as well as bulb replacement, they provide a very good outside view. But Angus has made me believe that using CRT displays (which are cheap) is a wonderful option also. Aargh! I think I am arguing with myself. lol Anhoo any comments welcome. Thanks for letting me ramble.
Cheers and thanks for this site Trevor. Looks like 737 are top on people's list here.

Kindest regards
Jim

[ivar hestnes]

Welcome Jim 

I think that the wideview solution is a good and cheap way to go if you dont demand "all sliders on max" in FS. CRT screens for free, maybe computers for free. For sure a good start on getting a nice visual.

But... If you use videview and wants state of the art settings on the "FS sliders", you need alot of upper price-class computers. So then this solution is not so cheap anyway.

Thriplehead2go, 3 projectors and one top-spec computer Can also give you a 225 degree visual. And the big screen..... Nothing beats that for sure But also you need large room.

I guess there are as many solutions as there are builders, lol.
All the various solutions will have some benefits and backdraws.  A 100% perfect visual system for FS dont excist.

[bagpiper]

Many thanks for your comments Ivar. I already have the triple head to go and was running it on 3 samsung monitors which looked very nice. Hadn't thought of it as full time solution - however your comment about needing a large room did ring true. My wife's old srap booking room is a bit small. Darn if I'd known I was going to use it for a cockpit I would have built it bigger. lol. I know I am not going to get a definitive answer but hey! just shooting the breeze as the Americans would say. Hopefully it won't take another 10 years to get started properly.
Kindest regards
Jim

[Bob Reed]

The other thing to think about... Unless you can afford top of the line projectors, lcd monitors are a lot cheaper and the reseloution and contrast ratio are much higher. The contrast ratio is the one I look at. If you don't get a good black, night flying is just not as good..... If the black is too washed out you can't tell the horizon from the ground. Lots of stuff to watch...

[jackpilot]

Not "hi Jack"ing the thread but what about HD TV's.
Their frames are thinner by the day (and their price too) .
What would be the specs to look for in a large HD TV ?

[Sean]

I've very recently setup my 3 projector visuals, here's a pic of the first results. I'll be constructing a rigid screen (these are bed sheets) in due course.

Having the space I wanted to go projectors to get the best immersion factor, but not wanting to spend too much, I got the cheapest XGA short throw projector I could find (Acer X1230S).

The result is better than I imagined.

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I'm using a 32" HDTV for the left outside view. Pretty incredible really, even at 720 dpi. It fills up nearly the entire side window and half of the #3 window. It starts messing with your head in mountainous areas or in windy conditions.

The rest are all normal computer monitors 19"WS and up.

[bagpiper]

WOW! Thanks everyone for our input. I had not considered an HDTV so thanks for the idea. Just by bouncing this around I think my mind is made up to move away from the projectors just due to expense and space considerations. Again! To repeat myself Angus has shown a wonderful sim with nothing more than 19" CRT displays and it just blew me away.
Cheers
Jim

[ivar hestnes]

yeah, as Bob say. Contrast ratio is an important thing. LCD projectors as I have is not fun in nightflying. The black is more grey, and the image kind of "shades out". Not optimal for sure. I think DLP is the way to go regarding projectors. Black is a lot more black on those.

Also heat is a big backdraw on projectors. I have three, and that equals around 800watts of heat. Add up 6 computers, some extra powersupplies and sitting on a sheep-cushion. Very hot

A good thing about CRT. Image quality. Nothing beats the CRT. But the size is a drawback.

Have anyone tried a CRT screen with a freznel lens? I bet that is awesome

[bagpiper]

About 6 years ago I tried a CRT with a fresnel lens. It was wonderful. So much so that it stayed in front on my screen for a good couple of years. The feeling of depth you get is just amazing. You seem to have your focus in the distance as opposed to 2 feet in front of you.

Cheers
Jim

[bagpiper]

I've very recently setup my 3 projector visuals, here's a pic of the first results. I'll be constructing a rigid screen (these are bed sheets) in due course.

Having the space I wanted to go projectors to get the best immersion factor, but not wanting to spend too much, I got the cheapest XGA short throw projector I could find (Acer X1230S).

The result is better than I imagined.

Just when I think I have told myself that I can't afford projectors or have the space you through up this wonderful shot. Nice one mate.

Jim

[XOrionFE]

Since my space is only 7ft wide I plan on using a TH2GO with 3 32" HD TVs at 1080p.    That should nicely fill in the front windows.   I would like to see if someone trys the new feature of having 2 TH2GOs for a total of 6 wide (6x1).   This seems like it may be nice also.  I currently have 3 22" LCD monitors from my old setup.   Maybe just by 3 more and another TH2GO and wrap around.  Not sure what the visual would be though....just very wide FOV or would I get some of the side views?   

Scott

[bagpiper]

Since my space is only 7ft wide I plan on using a TH2GO with 3 32" HD TVs at 1080p.    That should nicely fill in the front windows.   I would like to see if someone trys the new feature of having 2 TH2GOs for a total of 6 wide (6x1).   This seems like it may be nice also.  I currently have 3 22" LCD monitors from my old setup.   Maybe just by 3 more and another TH2GO and wrap around.  Not sure what the visual would be though....just very wide FOV or would I get some of the side views?   

Scott

OMG. i am already picturing myself with 6 32" HDTV's using two THTGO landing at Kai Tak Airport, Hong Kong. I feel my wife groaning already. I hope someone answers this one Scott. Would love to see how this set up runs. Lovely idea.

Without wanting to be boring - thanks to all who have added to this thread. Lot's of food for thought.

Cheers
Jim

[Trevor Hale]

Sorry Jim, I don;t meant to be late jumping in here, was a long day at work.  Anyway looks like most people here answered the why's but in case you missed it here I go.

#1. I have a big enough room for the projectors, however what happens as I look out the window is I still see "Room" around my sim.  The only way to eliminate the I am in my room feeling, is to eliminate the room and I will do that by boxing in the screens.

#2. Ivar is right, night flying with my projectors is nice, but not as clear as it can be with LCD's.  Very difficult to identify the horizon in a nice VFR night flight, and with the LCD's I can achieve that. 

Other then that, take one flight in Angus simulator, and your in awe.  Check out his video's.. 

Nuf said. LOL.  some people prefer Projectors and some people prefer the Monitors, it all comes down to personal preference, and for me.  I will move to Monitors.

Trev

[bagpiper]

Sorry Jim, I don;t meant to be late jumping in here, was a long day at work.  Anyway looks like most people here answered the why's but in case you missed it here I go.

#1. I have a big enough room for the projectors, however what happens as I look out the window is I still see "Room" around my sim.  The only way to eliminate the I am in my room feeling, is to eliminate the room and I will do that by boxing in the screens.

#2. Ivar is right, night flying with my projectors is nice, but not as clear as it can be with LCD's.  Very difficult to identify the horizon in a nice VFR night flight, and with the LCD's I can achieve that. 

Other then that, take one flight in Angus simulator, and your in awe.  Check out his video's.. 

Nuf said. LOL.  some people prefer Projectors and some people prefer the Monitors, it all comes down to personal preference, and for me.  I will move to Monitors.

Trev

Hi Trev.
Many thanks mate.  I really was curios to your reasons and in all honesty seems to make the most sense for me also to consider either HDTV or monitors in one shape or another. I also found out that AMD have a new technology called Eyefinity that will eventually allow 6 monitors at one time from one card. Don't think it is out there yet but interesting all the same. Here is a link to the AMD subsite:

http://www.amd.com/eyefinity

And Angus' video is just superb. I have watched it at least 4 times now and just amazes me that given the right visual and audio queues how real it all seems. As you also said, with the monitors you can block out the rest of the real world and make it even more immersive.

Thanks.
Jim

[geneb]

Ivar, can you go into detail on how you manage to get 225 degrees out of one TH2G?  I'm curious to see what your projector configuration is, especially in relation to the position of the sim cab.

tnx.

g.

[ivar hestnes]

Gene, it is not a quick explain to detail this. But I will go roughly here. Will make a tutorial on my webpage when I am "finished" with the setup. Still lots of numbers to "break" lol.

OK:     Triplehead2go + 3 x native XGA beamers. 5 undocked windows, showing: Left, FWD left, FWD, FWD right, right. All windows must have exactly the same zoom setting. Try and failure until you have a match.

Theory:  A circle is 360 degrees. If you split in 8 parts (Left, left fwd, fwd, right fwd, right, right aft, aft, left aft) This is 360 degree to 8 windows = 45 degree each window. (This is only correct if you have exactly same zoom setting on each window). And if not the same zoom setting, the windows will not match each other.

5 windows (with matching zoom setting) x 45 degree = 225 degree visual. If you use widescreen beamers, 5 undocked windows will still be 225 degree, cause the complete circle is still 360 degrees.

Eyepoint. Thats the easy one actually. Where do you have your eyepoint in the sim? Easy. Go sit down and mark where your eyes are Your physical eyepoint will be the simulator eyepoint. So look left and right, you have the 180 degree. So, when you look straight left, you will see the middle point of your left window.

There is a lot more to explain here, but it is several hours work to do, so it will be for later when I have it up and running perfectly.

I still dont have any curved screen around the sim, and I need to buy three new beamers to get this running. But I have all this on my drawng board, and now I could calculate a "throw-rate" vs screen size for the new projectors I need.



It is also possible to make a 7 window config. So you can see your winglets also. But that is a computer kill, lol. The drawing board and geometry will tell you how to do that I have tried it, so I know it works (315 degree visual).

[Boeing Skunk Works]

Has anyone tried to plug a TH2G into a TH2G? That would be interesting if it would work.

[jackpilot]

Matrox has a device allowing 2+ units.

[Angus Wighton]

Hi Bagpiper ..... like you my father was born in Edinburgh, my mother was from Dollar - they moved to Canada to get married.  I was born and raised in Toronto but at the age of 13-18 attended a boarding school in Perthshire.  Lived with my Grandmother in Edinburgh (just near the Dean Bridge) on school breaks, just returning to Toronto for summer holidays.

When I first set up my 7 wideview monitors we had the middle screen as the Front View, then each direction was sequenced as 30 degrees, 60 degrees and 90 degrees.  Looked awesome when taxiing, taking off and flying.  However when landing - just like all the projector sims I had been in - it appeared that we were flying sideways towards the runway!!  Guys who had projectors out front in their sim were obviously used to flying sideways towards the runway and had adopted their flying to make it work .... but for me, it was unrealistic and quite distracting!!

In a real aircraft the runway appears straight ahead of you regardless of the seat you are in ....

As corporate pilots, we change seats every leg - so whether Captain or First Officer - we always fly from the left seat. 

Soooooooo, I changed the VIEWS so that Wideview #3 Monitor (directly in front of the Captains's Left Seat) is now straight ahead ..... #2 is 30 degrees left, #1 is 60 degrees left ...... #4 is 30 degrees right, #5 is 60 degrees right ... etc etc

As a result, the limitation of my sim is that it is entirely a LEFT SEAT sim!  When you sit in the right seat EVERYTHING appears to be going sideways!!  The benefit though is when you fly from the left seat EVERYTHING is absolutely perfect.  For my needs it works for me, but if you want a sim where the pilot in the right seat also flies from the right seat - it simply doesn't work.

For me the visuals are all important .... flying a visual approach in my sim is a thing of beauty when done from the left seat.   While on a visual approach lining up with the runway (with the monitor straight in front of you) is EXACTLY as it is in the real aircraft and the depth of field is totally realistic for adjusting your descent angle & speed down to the runway threshold.  I have all my FS sliders set to max, and my old PC's aren't anything special ..... so that sceneries like Innsbruck are quite breathtaking!

The other benefit I saw in my monitors (over projectors) is that my visuals are sharp as a tack - a very realistic view from the pilots seat.  The fact that a projector is expanded into a much larger presentation - my experience in sims with projectors is that everything appears slightly blurred.  My visuals are presented on a 19 inch monitor, just a few feet in front of my eye, as crisp as the real thing - rather than being projected onto a wall/screen many more feet in front of the simulator structure.

The problem with my monitors is that the "cockpit windows" match the layout of a Falcon business jet, MD-80, or DC-8 window setup - which if you are building a Boeing is not accurate.  My monitor setup is not designed for a specific cockpit windshield layout of your choice - thus building a B747 or B737 will distract from all your other efforts to accurately recreate that aircraft type in your simpit.

Thus it really doesn't suit a type-specific simulator setup at all, like most builders here have created - it really suits the more generic type that I was building.  So while it looks great in my photographs and video, its not the best choice for the majority of builders out there. 

However, you see, I fly business jets for a living so a type-specific simulator was not important for my simming enjoyment.  In the years I have been building & flying my sim I am now on the third different type of aircraft that I am flying - with potentially another new type coming this year.  Each aircraft has a very different cockpit layout - just as it would be if I had been changing my sim type as often - the bottom line however is regardless how often the cockpit layout changes, its still a high performance jet aircraft and they all fly virtually the same!

That's to me is the real importance of your sim - the ENJOYMENT of flying it.  So it all becomes a personal choice - what matters the most to you?   No choice of "visuals" is right or wrong ....

[bagpiper]

WoW! Thanks a lot for the very detailed information Angus. Funny thing is that My mum was born in Canada. Small world huh? Anyhoo you have answered a lot of questions that I had on my mind. It did not occur to me that sitting on the right would have made a difference, but now you have brought it up it makes a lot of sense. I really appreciate all the information Angus.
Many thanks
Jim

[jackpilot]

In a real aircraft the runway appears straight ahead of you regardless of the seat you are in ....
Soooooooo, I changed the VIEWS so that Wideview #3 Monitor (directly in front of the Captains's Left Seat) is now straight ahead ..... #2 is 30 degrees left, #1 is 60 degrees left ...... #4 is 30 degrees right, #5 is 60 degrees right ... etc etc

Hi Angus
Theoretically, based on the same , a set up like the one below with 3 projectors should work for the left seat.
Just toying with the idea.

[geneb]

Thanks for the overview Ivar.  It's something I'll have to fiddle with I think.

My configuration is going to be similar to the drawing that Jackpilot posted, but being single-seat the center projector will be aligned with the center-line of the cockpit.

I did a "burn-in" of my first projector for about 7 hours this past Saturday.  It uses a standard Dell 15" 1024x768 panel as the image source.  I've posted a "micro-tour" of the projector's innards here: A DIY Projector tour...

The focus point for this projector is about 3 meters and results in an image that is just a little shy of 3 meters wide.  With the type of projector I'm using, your desired throw distance dictates the size of the screen and vice-versa.  I'm hoping to be able to post video of the projector in operation soon.

g.

[ETomlin]

Very interesting Gene! Ive always wondered how well those things worked. Now Im looking forward to your video showing the image.

[ivar hestnes]

Nice work Gene. Looking forward to your testing video.
DIY projectors is very cool projects in my opinion.