I recently switched from using the default 738 in FSX to using the Posky 738. Don and I noted when flying that the ailerons were really slow responding and we really had to crank the yokes over to get full response. Can someone explain the best way to tweak these to make it more responsive in roll? I want it to be realistic but right now I feel like it has to be too slow. I bet I could roll a blimp faster.
Thank you,
Scott
Scott,
Assuming that the AIRCRAFT.cfg files are similar to FS9, you should be able to open the config files and take a look at the "aileron effectiveness" setting. It's in there with the elevator and trim effectiveness settings. Do a search within the text file and it should find it easily. I would compare the 2 of them (default and POSKY) and then just try some tweaking.
Trial and error seems the best way to go. I have done some tweaking for things like elevator trim with pretty good success. Just backup or remember the original values in case you don't like the outcome!
Hope that helps,
Matt
Thanks you Matt
While you are at it, there is another setting to tweak with basically any flight model.
The Sim airplanes tend to return far too soon to horizontal when a turn is induced and you have to correct the turn constantly to keep the banking angle which is unrealistic.
A real airplane stays banked even when ailerons are back to neutral (even if tends to return very very slowly to horizontal)
There is a setting in the cfg dealing with that (I think it is horizontal stability or something like that- I am not at the FS PC now) by ichanging the number you can have much slower return to level flight) Beware, there is a thin line between total stability in a turn and not enough stability in level flight, ie: if you tweak it too much the aircraft will be unable to track staight.
Edit: Yep Tom got it it is Roll_stability.
Hey Scott, in the aircraft.cfg file this is the section your looking for:
[flight_tuning]
cruise_lift_scalar = 1.0
parasite_drag_scalar = 1.0
induced_drag_scalar = 1.0
elevator_effectiveness = 1.0
aileron_effectiveness = 1.0
rudder_effectiveness = 1.0
pitch_stability = 1.0
roll_stability = 1.0
yaw_stability = 1.0
elevator_trim_effectiveness = 1.0
aileron_trim_effectiveness = 1.0
rudder_trim_effectiveness = 1.0
All of these numbers are at 1.0 raising the numbers lets say 1.2 will make the effect more responsive, lowering them say 0.8 will make them less responsive.
its a test and fly thing.
Tom
Thank you guys
I will try these tonight!
Something else that makes a difference Scott is control wheel loading. I never knew how heavy the controls were until flying an FDS sim. Mike Leavy might be able to chip in here but with correct loading, you will find you have to hold quite a bit of force on the yoke in order to hold a 30 degree bank. Even though the config file has the effectiveness at 1 the aircraft is still slow to respond. Also be aware that changes made here may effect your Sim-A configs and therefore throw out the stability Mark has built into the new version.
Even though its for the 777 here are the flight tuning configs for the Posky 777:
[flight_tuning]
cruise_lift_scalar = 0.90
parasite_drag_scalar = 0.75
induced_drag_scalar = 0.88
elevator_effectiveness = 1.00
aileron_effectiveness = 1.60
rudder_effectiveness = 1.40
pitch_stability = 1.00
roll_stability = 1.00
yaw_stability = 1.00
elevator_trim_effectiveness = 1.000
aileron_trim_effectiveness = 0.50
rudder_trim_effectiveness = 0.50
Ken.
Quote from: Kennair on May 28, 2011, 07:58:01 PM
Something else that makes a difference Scott is control wheel loading. I never knew how heavy the controls were until flying an FDS sim. Mike Leavy might be able to chip in here but with correct loading, you will find you have to hold quite a bit of force on the yoke in order to hold a 30 degree bank. Even though the config file has the effectiveness at 1 the aircraft is still slow to respond. Also be aware that changes made here may effect your Sim-A configs and therefore throw out the stability Mark has built into the new version.
Ken.
I was always amazed how light the controls felt. Just because its a heavy does not mean its heavy to fly. Only time i ever throw in close to full deflection is landing in gusty winds with one hand on yoke and other on throttle. Im no muscle man and to me it feels pretty light. Like a big 172. Normal hand flying i actually rest my hands on top of the yokes. Palms down. 25 deg of bank is normal turning and banking.. No workout there guys and gals. Dont relate the size of the plane to the stiffness of the controls. 73 800 and 900ER to me are soo nice to fly. Easy and pretty light.
Mike Leavy
The biggest problem for most guys here,is that weve never flown a real 737 so i really have no idea what its supposed to feel like when you pull back on the yokes for liftoff,and what the response should really be, i would like to know myself, Mike would be the guy to go to for that information, i would just like to know what the response should be to the elevator,and the ailerons, even though i think the feel of the airplane is great,that might not be the way it is in the real world, maybe Mike could make some little adjustments to those 2 settings and tell us what he thinks is the best settings to be like the real thing.
take care,Tom
Quote from: MLeavy737 on May 28, 2011, 08:29:43 PM
I was always amazed how light the controls felt. Just because its a heavy does not mean its heavy to fly. Only time i ever throw in close to full deflection is landing in gusty winds with one hand on yoke and other on throttle. Im no muscle man and to me it feels pretty light. Like a big 172. Normal hand flying i actually rest my hands on top of the yokes. Palms down. 25 deg of bank is normal turning and banking.. No workout there guys and gals. Dont relate the size of the plane to the stiffness of the controls. 73 800 and 900ER to me are soo nice to fly. Easy and pretty light.
Mike Leavy
Ah, very valuable information Mike and like already stated most of us don't know the feel of the real bird. There is certainly a large difference between my home sim and a pro FDS model but I figure my home sim was way too light. Perhaps FDS is a little overweighted then because it is quite heavy. I am talking here about the 777 however which may differ from the 737 in control loading.
Ken.
Without being in your/a sim its hard to explain the control inputs. Im sure there are numbers and lbs of force out there somewhere but sometimes i think that gets lost in translation. My advice basicslly.. Just dont make the airplane a workout to fly. Its not at all straining in a 737. Not sure on the 777 but i can ask some pilots i guess.
Mike Leavy
Thanks Mike for the reply, i have the settings at the stock fsx 737 default settings and it feels quite nice right where its at,atleast for me.
Tom
Quote from: MLeavy737 on May 29, 2011, 07:18:29 AM
Without being in your/a sim its hard to explain the control inputs. Im sure there are numbers and lbs of force out there somewhere but sometimes i think that gets lost in translation. My advice basicslly.. Just dont make the airplane a workout to fly. Its not at all straining in a 737. Not sure on the 777 but i can ask some pilots i guess.
Mike Leavy
I think I may replace the gas spring for my yokes. They feel quite right as long as you use both hands but with one hand on the yoke and one on the throttle, you do get a workout as Jack & Trev commented. I accepted that workout because I thought the real plane was the same, but even if it is as stiff, there is really no point in struggling, especially on a homebuilt simulator. Maybe my lateral corrections on final will be smoother if I don't need to wrestle with the yoke. :)
Thanks,
Maurice
Maurice,
Yes. Definately need to back off a little.
Mike Leavy
Mike
A related question. On the 737, is there any feedback into the control column movement dependent on airspeed and/or aircraft inclination, or is the flight control resistance broadly constant
Thanks
David
Check from another David:
http://www.737flightsim.com/737center.html
Jack
That was quick :) Many thanks for that link. Sadly though, that means that I will now have to find a way to introduce variable force feedback onto the control columns :(
I have a few ideas and will report back in due course :)
Regards
David
Ken !,
Re. the B777.
Yesterday I had a real 777 captain in my sim and the only thing he complained of was the yoke forces being 1) too heavy and 2) too unresponsive. The B777 is just like a B737 in responses and you hand fly normally with VERY little input in elevator and ailerons.
Just like Mike says - a huge C172 yoke input wise - well it is a bit more heavy though I believe ;D
(My yoke is an ACE B737 yoke and needs to be recalibrated so the response curve is fast in the beginning and slow at the full deflection.)
Best,
Bjorn
Quote from: saabpilot on May 29, 2011, 12:35:58 PM
Ken !,
Re. the B777.
Yesterday I had a real 777 captain in my sim and the only thing he complained of was the yoke forces being 1) too heavy and 2) too unresponsive. The B777 is just like a B737 in responses and you hand fly normally with VERY little input in elevator and ailerons.
Just like Mike says - a huge C172 yoke input wise - well it is a bit more heavy though I believe ;D
(My yoke is an ACE B737 yoke and needs to be recalibrated so the response curve is fast in the beginning and slow at the full deflection.)
Best,
Bjorn
Hmm, well we've had real 77 & 47 pilots in the sim and attest to the loading on our columns too. Maybe I'm just a weakling Lol. Good informaion though as there was no way I could introduce heavier load forces into my home sim without lots of engineerning so if its not necessary then it will be much easier to build. Thanks guys, good topic.
Ken.
Well I experimented with the settings in the Posky 738 file fsx today and putting everything to 1 to match the default 737 didnt work to well. It got rather squirrely feeling to me. Will have to find a happy medium somewhere along the way. I will go back to the original settings and slowly increase the aileron effectiveness until it feels right. I think all the other original Posky settings actually worked and felt pretty good at their defaults.
Scott
I find te Posky 7 (FS9 though) pretty well balanced, very stable in most if not all configurations as long as the settings (speed flaps power) are appropriate.
I only increased the banking stability a bit.
Scott: pretty sure you did it that way but it is better to change only one setting at a time and testfly on a complete circuit with strictly similar settings.
Hey Scott im pretty sure they changed a few other settings in there also that would effect putting it back to stock, compare a stock default file to the posky file, the posky file messed with the reference datum points and also the CG points. i would start with a stock fsx file and change the parts that you need from the posky file.
I thought you told me the reason for using the posky was that it solved some kind of autopilot problem, you were having, or had more functionality or something like that?
Tom
yes, the Posky 738 is being used now because sim-a seems to work very well with it so will not be switching back to default 737. I will continue to use the Posky but slowly fine tune the ailerons. i think it should be pretty easy to dial it in.
Hey just so happens im flying with a guy today who also flew the 777. Asked him about the feel and all and he basically confirmed what Bjorn said. Very much like the 737. Pretty light on the controls. Said you could fly it with 2 fingers on each hand. For what its worth.
Mike Leavy
Quote from: fordgt40 on May 29, 2011, 11:58:35 AM
Jack
That was quick :) Many thanks for that link. Sadly though, that means that I will now have to find a way to introduce variable force feedback onto the control columns :(
I have a few ideas and will report back in due course :)
Regards
David
Hello
Ruscool http://www.ruscool.co.nz/ (http://www.ruscool.co.nz/) has made a little freeware program.
You can download it from their support forum.
http://s4.zetaboards.com/Ruscool_Electronics/topic/8218969/1/
Best regards
Bjarne :)
Hey guys,
Scott I don't mean to hijack your topic (there seems to be a lot of that going around doesn't there?) but I have a related question for those of you who know more about aircraft dynamics than I do...
Problem: it takes WAY too much thrust to taxi. By that, I mean that compared to what I have seen in real aircraft (though videos and such, since I'm not actually a pilot), it does not take that much thrust to get a real airplane to roll for taxi. Generally it seems that pilots apply a bit of movement to the levers and the airplane easily rolls. I have to advance my throttles MUCH further forward than what it seems real aircraft require.
Question: is there a certain entry in the dynamics that can fix this issue? Maybe something that has to do with how easily the aircraft rolls on the ground? Force necessary to overcome weight and friction of the tires? Something? Anything?
I digress- if anyone knows how I can fix this problem (and what needs to be changed) I would greatly appreciate the help!
Thanks,
Matt
P.S.- Aircraft is PSS/POSKY merged 757. Posky model with the PSS flight dynamics (.air and .cfg), using the modified dynamics posted on Avsim a few years ago.
A fully loaded 737 will take about 35-40%N1 on 2 engines to get moving from a standstill to get the airplane moving at a normal acceleration. Sometimes a little more depending on the type of pavement your on. . We try to taxi out with 1 engine to conserve fuel. When thats the case that loaded airplane will sometimes take about 45%plus. Were only allowed up to 45% in the ramp area. More than that and you start hurting people behind you. Usually you also need to initially turn the nosewheel into the inop engine to get it going single engine as well. And if your in a small rut or something after pushback you may not even be able to get the airplane moving on one engine. Have to start the other
Not sure about 757 but it does take a little bit to get these things moving. Once moving you dont need much. Little over idle is ok. I always noticed how easy it was in FS to get the airplane moving from standstill. Totally wrong. Maybe the model you have is accurate?
Mike Leavy
Mike,
That makes me feel a little better about my dynamics... altho what is idle N1 on a 737? It's about 22% on my 757, to get the plane rolling I usually need around 40% depending on weights. But to keep it rolling in FS, I find that I need to keep the thrust up around 40%, which is why I assuming something is not right. What is normal taxi speed? Isn't it between 20-30 knots? I usually try to keep that, but like I said it takes a substantial amount of thrust.
I have also noticed that taxi fuel burn is a lot higher in the game than in reality, but read somewhere that FS is just that way and there really isn't a way to fix it...
Matt
I dont remember the exact idle speed but its somewhere in that range mid 20's or so. The 40% initial to get it rolling sounds right but generally once rolling its closer to idle with some occasional blits of throttle in turns and such. Safe taxi speed is closer to a person fast walking or jogging. 20-30 kts is too fast. Unless your Southwest of course :)
Im sure if you can do anything about the fuel burn adjustment.
While im thinking about it do you know where the setting is in the config file so you can bring up a different window and not have FS go to pause mode? Been working on my own software and just remembered there is a setting for it. Thanks.
Mike Leavy
I don't know what the setting is but would love to know... would make takeoff speed calculations much easier!
Quote from: MLeavy737 on May 31, 2011, 08:14:13 PM
While im thinking about it do you know where the setting is in the config file so you can bring up a different window and not have FS go to pause mode? Been working on my own software and just remembered there is a setting for it. Thanks.
Mike Leavy
Mike, its in the General Settings section and called "Pause on task switch" If it's ticked the sim will pause when it loses focus i.e. another window opened.
Ken.
Is that only for FSX? Or is there a similar setting in FS9?
Yes Matt exactly the same in FS9 & FSX: Options - Settings - General - 'Pause on task switch'. Untick and the sim won't pause when you fiddle in another application.
Ken.
Awesome, thanks Ken!
Aileron force is controlled by the "aileron feel and centering unit". What ever "spring" tension is in there determines the resistance / force + cable tension - resistance etc.
The Captain's control wheel is connected by cables to the aileron power control units (PCUs) through the aileron feel and centering unit. The First Officer's control wheel is connected by cables to the spoiler PCUs through the spoiler mixer. The two control wheels are connected by a cable drive system which allows actuation of both ailerons and spoilers by either control wheel.
With total hydraulic power failure the ailerons can be mechanically positioned by rotating the pilots' control wheels. Control forces are higher due to friction and aerodynamic loads
HYD= off -> driving the '73 is just that... driving like a truck with no power steering, really stiff & heavy - you need to anticipate and lead with rudder to help the ailerons. pitch is also really heavy - use trim.
Having said that the aircraft is still 'flyable' and dare i say still 'enjoyable'. ( real a/c easier to fly with HYD off than the simulator )
Thats all with the HYDraulics off. - loss of sys A & B.
HYD = ON -> flying the 73 is smooth and light. the classic is heavier on ailerons. I prefer the classic at max crosswind than the NG. The NG aileron is lighter and more responsive but easier to "over" control with gusts and crosswinds etc.
pitch control is the same for both however the longer the fuselage the better it flys. I'm guessing the -600 is very different to the -900. - I only fly the -400 & -800.
How stiff should the ailerons be? difficult without the use of a strain gauge. and i'm not about to go and buy one of those.
just try and get the controls smooth, with some resistance thats comfortable and noticeable - not heavy.
if you see a good "driver" at work he ( she ) moves the control wheel with quick smooth short/small movements - like the autopilot. someone new on type will be slower to correct and input correction later and generally larger or too much.
trying to get the sim to behave like the real deal is difficult.
adjusting the config will be necessary as different a/c types plus different yokes/ columns etc will all vary the force/feel/response.
after ablout 18months off I'm back into the garage next month to replace my saitek controls with made up thrust quad and columns. what is necessary is that when any force is released the controls go back to zero position - not near zero. otherwise you start chasing the aircraft/sim.
so yes I'll be thinking of control response and feel :-[ - more trial by error :huh:
Elevator Feel System
The elevator feel computer provides simulated aerodynamic forces using airspeed (from the elevator pitot system) and stabiliser position. Feel is transmitted to the control columns by the elevator feel and centering unit.
As speed varies so with the elevator resistance vary. well I'm not going to get a ELEV feel system in my sim - would be nice but time & $ are factors.
control loading maybe one day...if time permits.
M
Thank you for your "input"here
Much appreciated
..anytime Mark
;)
Hey Marcus who are you flying for? Just curious..
Ill tell ya having flown the 3, and currently flying the 5,7,8,9,9ER i would say the 300 certainly flew the best. Was just all around nice. Im not sure what the first model 737 that came out was, however my guess is that it was based on the 300 length or somewhere in that size. I think when they just start stretching the hell out the thing to fit more people on it your kinda deviating from the original plan. Only reason your landing that 800 at a 164kts sometimes i because it too damn long! Lol.
800 is my favorite to fly however. 900 is just a different animal. Flys and lands completely different than the others. Also feels different in the bumps. Little more stable obviously because of the lenght, like you said.
For builders its probably one of the tougher things to get right. Soo much depends on the sim, the control setup, springs, dampers, hydraulics, flight model etc. I also see alot of talk about control forces and how many pounds it takes to go full fwd/aft and turn the yoke. Thats great and all when the plane is sitting there on the ground but i dont see that info usefull for building a sim that is meant to fly.. to me you just modelling the control feel with hydraulics on at the gate :) good enough for a start i guess.
Not really sure where im going with this but my best advice for control setup is have as many people who fly them real life come over and fly your sim and listen to what they say. Maybe even video it. Then watch the video and compare it to a youtube video of someone landing a real one. Can prob tell alot by that.
Mike Leavy
ok Mike...so when are you coming to Chicago? :)
Quote from: XOrionFE on June 08, 2011, 05:27:58 AM
ok Mike...so when are you coming to Chicago? :)
Im up there all the time. Usually just heading through KORD. Ill let ya know if i have a descent overnight there with some time.
Mike Leavy
sounds good Mike. i could pick you up at the airport. i am about a 45 minute drive west of there.
Scott
Quote from: XOrionFE on June 09, 2011, 11:19:44 AM
sounds good Mike. i could pick you up at the airport. i am about a 45 minute drive west of there.
Scott
Send a Limo! :)
Quote from: the mad hatter on June 09, 2011, 12:13:25 PM
something like this? all three surfaces
Oh Mr Mad Hatter... what is that? It really looks good.... I'm staring at it and seeing all sorts of good ideas, but it all looks like rudder assemblies. Please elaborate. :huh:
Fantastic Art work from Northern Flightsim. Pun Intended :)
Yes that is a great setup.. Happens to be the setup I have :) Heres a better pic from my pit.
from www.Northernflightsim.com
Mike Leavy
Well, you all may have sold me here...
I looked at NFS a while back (when I first started my build) but then I guess this wasn't available. I've asked for a quote, as this looks like it will make my new build a tad easier on me, to say the least.
I just hope it comes back as something I might be able to afford.
Warren
I hear ya, Bernard....
I have been trying to build something like that myself, and just can't get it right... I never did put two and two together on the NFS setup, and prior looks at Mike Leavy's setup. The selling point here is that Mike is a 737-800 driver and this is his preferred setup. I would imagine that it can be adjusted to be pretty darn close then.
Warren
Quote from: fsaviator on June 10, 2011, 06:15:48 AM
I hear ya, Bernard....
I have been trying to build something like that myself, and just can't get it right... I never did put two and two together on the NFS setup, and prior looks at Mike Leavy's setup. The selling point here is that Mike is a 737-800 driver and this is his preferred setup. I would imagine that it can be adjusted to be pretty darn close then.
Warren
To be honest i have not flown the sim with the controls yet. I had a different setup before i moved and rebuilt (rebuilding). I can say that the roll is very nice. Seems like just the right feel of an 800. When you pass through center there is a little bit of a clunk as the system transfers to the opposite side springs but then again i do not have the floor sealed up. That i believe can also be quieted down pretty easily. Most importantly, Feel is correct. I need to do some tweaking with the pitch on mine. Need to adjust for the forward tilt and when i get the MIP in place adjust the stops. During the move a small centering spring was knocked out of position so i need to mess with that as well before i get a good feel about the pitch. Seems great so far.
To me it was also about strength. You can literally slam these things around and nothing will happen. No plastic and PVC parts here my friends. Also probably the easist system to install. I build the base structure based on the design of the controls. ( have better pics if you need them )
One thing i will try to incorporate is some type of HYD feel device to them. Some type of damper. Had VW steering damper on last control setup that worked great. Prob something like. Well see.
Also i know Art personally. Awesome guy and will Never screw you. He has gone out of his was many times for me to make sure something was spot on.
Let me know if you have any questions.
Mike Leavy