737 Aileron Roll rate / Effectiveness

[XOrionFE]

I recently switched from using the default 738 in FSX to using the Posky 738.    Don and I noted when flying that the ailerons were really slow responding and we really had to crank the yokes over to get full response.    Can someone explain the best way to tweak these to make it more responsive in roll?    I want it to be realistic but right now I feel like it has to be too slow.   I bet I could roll a blimp faster.

Thank you,
Scott

[matta757]

Scott,

Assuming that the AIRCRAFT.cfg files are similar to FS9, you should be able to open the config files and take a look at the "aileron effectiveness" setting. It's in there with the elevator and trim effectiveness settings. Do a search within the text file and it should find it easily. I would compare the 2 of them (default and POSKY) and then just try some tweaking.

Trial and error seems the best way to go. I have done some tweaking for things like elevator trim with pretty good success. Just backup or remember the original values in case you don't like the outcome!

Hope that helps,
Matt

[XOrionFE]

Thanks you Matt

[jackpilot]

While you are at it, there is another setting to tweak with basically any flight model.
The Sim airplanes tend to return far too soon to horizontal when a turn is induced and you have to correct the turn constantly to keep the banking angle which is unrealistic.
A real airplane stays banked even when  ailerons are back to neutral (even if tends to return very very slowly to horizontal)
There is a setting  in the cfg dealing with that (I think it is horizontal stability or something like that- I am not at the FS PC now) by ichanging the number you can have much slower return to level flight) Beware, there is a thin line between total stability in a turn and not enough stability in level flight, ie: if you tweak it too much the aircraft will be unable to track staight.
Edit: Yep Tom got it it is Roll_stability.

[astron]

Hey Scott, in the aircraft.cfg file this is the section your looking for:

[flight_tuning]
cruise_lift_scalar     = 1.0
parasite_drag_scalar   = 1.0
induced_drag_scalar    = 1.0
elevator_effectiveness = 1.0
aileron_effectiveness  = 1.0
rudder_effectiveness   = 1.0
pitch_stability        = 1.0
roll_stability         = 1.0
yaw_stability          = 1.0
elevator_trim_effectiveness = 1.0
aileron_trim_effectiveness  = 1.0
rudder_trim_effectiveness   = 1.0


All of these numbers are at 1.0    raising the numbers lets say 1.2  will make the effect more responsive,  lowering them say  0.8   will make them less responsive.

its a test and fly thing.

Tom

[XOrionFE]

Thank you guys

I will try these tonight!

[Kennair]

Something else that makes a difference Scott is control wheel loading.  I never knew how heavy the controls were until flying an FDS sim.  Mike Leavy might be able to chip in here but with correct loading, you will find you have to hold quite a bit of force on the yoke in order to hold a 30 degree bank.  Even though the config file has the effectiveness at 1 the aircraft is still slow to respond.  Also be aware that changes made here may effect your Sim-A configs and therefore throw out the stability Mark has built into the new version.

Even though its for the 777 here are the flight tuning configs for the Posky 777:

[flight_tuning]
cruise_lift_scalar     = 0.90   
parasite_drag_scalar   = 0.75
induced_drag_scalar    = 0.88   
elevator_effectiveness = 1.00      
aileron_effectiveness  = 1.60   
rudder_effectiveness   = 1.40      
pitch_stability        = 1.00
roll_stability         = 1.00
yaw_stability          = 1.00
elevator_trim_effectiveness = 1.000
aileron_trim_effectiveness  = 0.50
rudder_trim_effectiveness   = 0.50

Ken.

[MLeavy737]

Something else that makes a difference Scott is control wheel loading.  I never knew how heavy the controls were until flying an FDS sim.  Mike Leavy might be able to chip in here but with correct loading, you will find you have to hold quite a bit of force on the yoke in order to hold a 30 degree bank.  Even though the config file has the effectiveness at 1 the aircraft is still slow to respond.  Also be aware that changes made here may effect your Sim-A configs and therefore throw out the stability Mark has built into the new version.

Ken.

  I was always amazed how light the controls felt. Just because its a heavy does not mean its heavy to fly.  Only time i ever throw in close to full deflection is landing in gusty winds with one hand on yoke and other on throttle. Im no muscle man and to me it feels pretty light. Like a big 172.  Normal hand flying i actually rest my hands on top of the yokes. Palms down. 25 deg of bank is normal turning and banking.. No workout there guys and gals. Dont relate the size of the plane to the stiffness of the controls. 73 800 and 900ER to me are soo nice to fly. Easy and pretty light.

Mike Leavy

[astron]

The biggest problem for most guys here,is that weve never flown a real 737 so i really have no idea what  its supposed to feel like when you pull back on the yokes for liftoff,and what the response should really be, i would like to know myself, Mike would be the guy to go to for that information, i would just like to know what the response should be to the elevator,and the ailerons, even though i think the feel of the airplane is great,that might not be the way it is in the real world,  maybe Mike could make some little adjustments to those 2 settings and tell us what he thinks is the best settings to be like the real thing.

take care,Tom

[Kennair]

  I was always amazed how light the controls felt. Just because its a heavy does not mean its heavy to fly.  Only time i ever throw in close to full deflection is landing in gusty winds with one hand on yoke and other on throttle. Im no muscle man and to me it feels pretty light. Like a big 172.  Normal hand flying i actually rest my hands on top of the yokes. Palms down. 25 deg of bank is normal turning and banking.. No workout there guys and gals. Dont relate the size of the plane to the stiffness of the controls. 73 800 and 900ER to me are soo nice to fly. Easy and pretty light.

Mike Leavy

Ah, very valuable information Mike and like already stated most of us don't know the feel of the real bird.  There is certainly a large difference between my home sim and a pro FDS model but I figure my home sim was way too light.  Perhaps FDS is a little overweighted then because it is quite heavy.  I am talking here about the 777 however which may differ from the 737 in control loading.

Ken.

[MLeavy737]

  Without being in your/a sim its hard to explain the control inputs. Im sure there are numbers and lbs of force out there somewhere but sometimes i think that gets lost in translation. My advice basicslly.. Just dont make the airplane a workout to fly. Its not at all straining in a 737. Not sure on the 777 but i can ask some pilots i guess.

Mike Leavy

[astron]

Thanks Mike for the reply, i have the settings at the stock fsx 737 default settings and it feels quite nice right where its at,atleast for me.

Tom

[Maurice]

  Without being in your/a sim its hard to explain the control inputs. Im sure there are numbers and lbs of force out there somewhere but sometimes i think that gets lost in translation. My advice basicslly.. Just dont make the airplane a workout to fly. Its not at all straining in a 737. Not sure on the 777 but i can ask some pilots i guess.

Mike Leavy

I think I may replace the gas spring for my yokes. They feel quite right as long as you use both hands but with one hand on the yoke and one on the throttle, you do get a workout as Jack & Trev commented. I accepted that workout because I thought the real plane was the same, but even if it is as stiff, there is really no point in struggling, especially on a homebuilt simulator.  Maybe my lateral corrections on final will be smoother if I don't need to wrestle with the yoke. 

Thanks,
Maurice

[MLeavy737]

Maurice,
  Yes. Definately need to back off a little.

Mike Leavy

[fordgt40]

Mike

A related question. On the 737,  is there any feedback into the control column movement dependent on airspeed and/or aircraft inclination, or is the flight control resistance broadly constant

Thanks

David

[jackpilot]

Check from another David:
http://www.737flightsim.com/737center.html

[fordgt40]

Jack

That was quick  Many thanks for that link. Sadly though, that means that I will now have to find a way to introduce variable force feedback onto the control columns

I have a few ideas and will report back in due course

Regards

David

[saabpilot]

Ken !,

Re. the B777.
Yesterday I had a real 777 captain in my sim and the only thing he complained of was the yoke forces being 1) too heavy and 2) too unresponsive.   The B777 is just like a B737 in responses and you hand fly normally with VERY little input in elevator and ailerons.
Just like Mike says - a huge C172 yoke input wise - well it is a bit more heavy though I believe 

(My yoke is an ACE B737 yoke and needs to be recalibrated so the response curve is fast in the beginning and slow at the full deflection.)

Best,
Bjorn

[Kennair]

Ken !,

Re. the B777.
Yesterday I had a real 777 captain in my sim and the only thing he complained of was the yoke forces being 1) too heavy and 2) too unresponsive.   The B777 is just like a B737 in responses and you hand fly normally with VERY little input in elevator and ailerons.
Just like Mike says - a huge C172 yoke input wise - well it is a bit more heavy though I believe 

(My yoke is an ACE B737 yoke and needs to be recalibrated so the response curve is fast in the beginning and slow at the full deflection.)

Best,
Bjorn

Hmm, well we've had real 77 & 47 pilots in the sim and attest to the loading on our columns too.  Maybe I'm just a weakling Lol.  Good informaion though as there was no way I could introduce heavier load forces into my home sim without lots of engineerning so if its not necessary then it will be much easier to build.  Thanks guys, good topic.

Ken.

[XOrionFE]

Well I experimented with the settings in the Posky 738 file fsx today and putting everything to 1 to match the default 737 didnt work to well.  It got rather squirrely feeling to me.   Will have to find a happy medium somewhere along the way.  I will go back to the original settings and slowly increase the aileron effectiveness until it feels right.   I think all the other original Posky settings actually worked and felt pretty good at their defaults.

Scott

[jackpilot]

I find te Posky 7 (FS9 though) pretty well balanced, very stable in most if not all configurations as long as the settings (speed flaps power) are appropriate.
I only increased the banking stability a bit.
Scott: pretty sure you did it that way but it is better to change only one setting at a time and testfly on a complete circuit with strictly similar settings.

[astron]

Hey Scott im pretty sure they changed a few other settings in there also that would effect putting it back to stock, compare a stock default file to the posky file,  the posky file messed with the reference datum points and also the CG points.   i would start with a stock fsx file and change the parts that you need from the posky file.

I thought you told me the reason for using the posky was that it solved some kind of autopilot problem, you were having, or had more functionality or something like that?

Tom

[XOrionFE]

yes, the Posky 738 is being used now because sim-a seems to work very well with it so will not be switching back to default 737.   I will continue to use the Posky but slowly fine tune the ailerons.  i think it should be pretty easy to dial it in.

[MLeavy737]

  Hey just so happens im flying with a guy today who also flew the 777. Asked him about the feel and all and he basically confirmed what Bjorn said. Very much like the 737. Pretty light on the controls. Said you could fly it with 2 fingers on each hand. For what its worth.

Mike Leavy

[Bjarne Horsbøl]

Jack

That was quick  Many thanks for that link. Sadly though, that means that I will now have to find a way to introduce variable force feedback onto the control columns

I have a few ideas and will report back in due course

Regards

David

Hello

Ruscool http://www.ruscool.co.nz/ has made a little freeware program.
You can download it from their support forum.
http://s4.zetaboards.com/Ruscool_Electronics/topic/8218969/1/

Best regards

Bjarne