Does anyone actually fly their sim?

[Boeing Skunk Works]

Of course you do. For those that are in a flyable building stage.

So how often do you fly it and where do you go?

Do you plan the entire flight starting with the weather and selecting a SID to fly, calculate fuel, W&B for trim, etc? Do you know and use your V-speeds? What is the manuvering speed of your aircraft for a given weight? With flaps?

Do you just hit the GO button and let the AP and FMC fly the aircraft or can you really hand fly your aircraft to ATP standards? I mean a full SID or STAR and a difficult approach with a procedure turn in mountainous terrain.

I'm curious what you all do and how you do it. We talk alot about what we're building or what latest part we just aquired or built, and how to program this or that.

I hear very little about doing some real flying in these wunder Flugzeuges we build

[Bob Reed]

Of course you do. For those that are in a flyable building stage.

So how often do you fly it and where do you go?

Do you plan the entire flight starting with the weather and selecting a SID to fly, calculate fuel, W&B for trim, etc? Do you know and use your V-speeds? What is the manuvering speed of your aircraft for a given weight? With flaps?

Do you just hit the GO button and let the AP and FMC fly the aircraft or can you really hand fly your aircraft to ATP standards? I mean a full SID or STAR and a difficult approach with a procedure turn in mountainous terrain.

I'm curious what you all do and how you do it. We talk alot about what we're building or what latest part we just aquired or built, and how to program this or that.

I hear very little about doing some real flying in these wunder Flugzeuges we build

Well I have flown both ways. If I had not much time, I would just hot the go button at an airport and just fly touch and goes. But.. When I had the time I would do the entire thing. THere was a point when a bunch of us would get totgether on a online server and we would all talk together while we planned the flight, weather rout ext.. THat was the most fun I ever had in the sim. There was only 1 time better. Trevor came out here and we flew the cockpit 2 crew as it is intended.. THat was the ultamte in my sim. Things where never the same.... But I am looking to fix that this time around!

[when acting as a wave]

My father certainly flies his as much as he can and plans flights to various different places, mostly around New Zealand and almost always leaving from our city's main airport. I've seen him with various maps and such like but I'm not sure about all the rest. I know he certainly takes it seriously though, because anyone who simply jumps in the seat and flies it like it's a sim and not an actual aircraft isn't appreciated or tolerated for very long.

It probably helps that several of his friends are pilots, so when he's demonstrating to them how various new additions to his simulator work (which they've often supplied info and/or measurements for) he'll make sure to operate it without them needing to point fingers at him!

[XOrionFE]

Well, prior to starting a 737 I had a lear and then for a short time the Cessna Mustang setup.   I enjoy flying on instruments doing approaches.  I have a couple videos up on youtube of my mustang sim.  One of them with what I thought was a great landing in IMC at Telluride.   I took my main computer for now in my office with my 32 inch lcd and CH yoke/pedals so I can desktop fly while building the 737 in my basement.   Since I am working on my Instrument ticket right now I like practicing using the Cessna Mustang from Flight1 because it is a G1000 and the 172 I rent has the G1000 also.   Lastnight I flew the Honolulu (PHNL) ILS 15 DME Arc.   Next I flew the Janesville, Wi (KJVL) VOR Rwy 4 approach which includes dme arc only this time at 8nm.   Lots of fun.   THis is main reason for me to build the sim.  To enjoy the flying.   Yes I will do FMC planned routes and use the autopilot on longer flights but I really love doing the SIDS, STARS, approaches and entering holds.   This to me is where the real fun is.

If you havent watched the videos by Luis Espindola in the PMDG 747 doing instrument raw data approaches, you need to.   To me they are inspirational and really get me motivated.     Hey Michael, you should do some like this in the 727!    Here is a link..check em out  B747-400, PMDG SIMULATOR, Honolulu, DME ARC, ILS, 8L, Vid. #1

[Trevor Hale]

I have to agree with Bob on this.  Flying the sim with someone else and sharing in the experience is top notch for me.  Most of the time if I am going to do a flight (and I am short on time) I will do a routine flight that I have the charts for in the sim all the time..  For example.  Toronto - New York, New York - washington, or Washington - Atlanta.

I used to spend a lot of time going between, Phoenix - Las Vegas and Los Angeles

Either way, for those flights, I generally Depart on the sid, and follow ATC instructions until I am cleared over FL180, at that point I will engage the AP and grab a beer.  Most of the flights I try to do are around the 1.5 to 2 hour mark.  so really you are on the departure and then not long a cruise, then on the arrival again.  (Snap, snap, snap) But All my flights are online Vatsim.  I don't get any enjoyment  flying just for the sake of flying, unless I am testing something I have added to the sim.  In that particular case, The operating book goes out the window, and I am joining on the runway, starting the engines and breaking all the rules.

It will be interesting to read everyone's responses to this. Unfortunatly right now my sim is down, with the rebuild of my overhead going well, and the lack of a way to control the aircraft

Trev

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I had a similar experience when my boss visited me while on vacation a few weeks ago. I never had anyone else in the sim to help with anything. He worked the gear and the flaps when I called for them so I could better concentrate on flying the procedures. He worked the lights and the radios for me as well. He got a real kick out of it since he is a RW pilot too.

Since I don't have a 100% full sim (that darned chimney again), he wasn't right on top of the instrument panel, but he got in close enough to help and had a good time too.

I used to fly on VATSIM when I flew in the States, but switched to IVAO when I moved to European flying. I racked up quite a few hours on both networks, but found that most of the time the full procedures weren't being used if controllers were on duty. You could request it, but many times it was denied because of heavy traffic.

Currently I'm not flying on-line due to a lack of communication connections in the sim. My computers are in another room (the shop) and I need to run cabling and install jacks and a headset adapter.

I do miss it. Sometimes the computer would lag in heavy traffic and that always frustrated me. I'd turn the visible traffic down some but I didn't like that either. My (newer) main FS computer shouldn't have a problem with it but I haven't tried it out yet for the reasons above.

[Boeing Skunk Works]

To answer my own questions, I start with the weather. FS weather is usually pretty close to what the station(s) is reporting so I use the iPhone to call up the METAR and ATIS and plan the SID.

Most of the airports I fly to have canned flight programs so I only had to figure fuel and W&B once, though I still have to look up the trim settings in the manual for the weight and flap setting. I also have to check V-speeds for departure & arrival. Manuvering speed is 270 KIAS at altitude for anything under a 30° bank. Manuvering speed for flap settings are the max speeds for those settings. Fuel burn averages 9,000 PPH, so I initially use that figure for all flights plus a 9000 pound reserve and 7,500 pounds to get me to an alternate or for holding.

Once the radios are set up and we're off, I fly the SID until joining the airway, sometimes sooner if it's a straight shot to the airway, but never before manuvering is completed for the procedure. Same with the STAR. I rarely hand fly it from the TOD, but wait until the manuvering begins on the STAR. Sometimes this might be FL110, or as low as 6,000 depending upon the procedure for the airport. I have a lot to do during this time to prepare for the approach so I let the AP share the workload.

There's no A/T in my sim, so all settings are manual but it's easy once you have a few hundred hours in this thing. For any particular weight and flap setting there are EPR and N1 settings that are pretty much memorized from experience. EPR is used for everything except the approach when N1 settings are used. EPR gets too low at these engine speeds to be of much value. The book speeds are nice for studying, but if you park it at M.78 your indicated is almost always within 5 KIAS either side, and the EPR is always in the ballpark as well.

Navigating can be a challenge sometimes when you need to use two NDB's and two VOR's plus have the localizer dialed in. You have to pick which three (if needed and available) will allow you to navigate the course most acurately. Sometimes there was a lot of frantic frequency changing without a lot of time to do so, so that the course isn't missed either during the SID or the STAR. It's become a lot easier with flip-flop radios that I didn't have before. Especially while you still have to fly the aircraft on speed at the correct attitude.

Cruise time with the AP flying has me busy checking my next fix, the next heading, and the next frequency as well as the refrigerator. I'm also studing the STAR, deciding the best way to use the nav-aids available to me and planning for speed reductions and descent distances to hit the crossing altitudes.

A two hour flight in the 727 goes by pretty fast on some trips with a lot of course changes. I rarely fly more than two hour flights. Sometimes I might visit Sweden or Finland if I have the time and the urge to see snow, but those are usually three hour flights from where I depart.

I almost always depart from where I last landed. It makes for less work pulling charts from the binder, positioning the aircraft, and setting the day & time for the flight.

[jackpilot]

Mike said most of what I could say.
I always depart from "previous flight".
I finally gave up and bought the FMC.
I like now entering the data and getting the right performance figures and flight plan on the navDU. I usually crosscheck with my paper performance tables. I always use a paper map and write down frequencies, ATC clearances, and all info that I could forget (the price of flying alone).
I handfly up to the point where ATC let me "resume my own nav" and then use the autopilot (very very rarely VNAV LNav) I tune manually my navaids and OBS and cross check waypoints from 2 VOR when doable.
I like the practical aspects of the FMC but use it as a flight computer and basically never let it fly the airplane.
One nice feature is the NavRad screen which allow pretuning frequencies beyond the radio set flip flop.
I am reluctant to hook my network to internet from fear of viruses as I found that having no firewalls on the network speeds it up considerably and avoid a lot of bugs I see reported on the forums.
Maybe I am totally wrong..(computer gurus, please advise).
I usually circumnavigate the globe, departing from Montreal, making 2 to 3 hours flights and of course transoceanics with stopovers when possible (Greenland, Iceland, or the pacific islands).
I manage to get maps and approach plates through friends, Navigraph or ICAO. Theses trips around the globe are wonderful as there is a sort of "adventure" preparing and discovering new routes, or arriving to known places from a different angle,and a curious feeling when you are back to square one (CYUL) from the other side of the planet.
One frustration though: no Polar flights possible because of FS limits.
Thats all folks.

[Trevor Hale]

All of a sudden I feel very small for using LNAV and VNAV while I am grabbing a beer from the fridge..  I think I would feel way intimidated flying with you lot.  LOL  Although I would learn a tremendous ammount, I think I would prove how little I know about Navigation.  I can Tune VOR's and NDB's and I can track too and from without issue. I can follow Approach plates, SiD's and Star's However, when I am flying the BIG TIN.. if I don;t have that pretty Magenta Line on my PFD or the flight director to follow, I am in deep doo doo.  If my FMC was to fail, I could fly direct to a vor, but other then that, I think I would be in big trouble..  Usually HOLD, and wait for vectors LOL.

Trev

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I found that the FD is just an annoyance to me. The FD109 of this era is not all that great and it's always telling me to fly an attitude that consumes more fuel. Plus, it's always visually in my way of the ball.

Whomever coded this 727 must have done the flight director at M.80 or M.82. In addition, it's rarely ever spot on for an intercept course because it can't figure in the crosswind correction. Sure, roll it over for a 30 degree intercept when the wind is blowing at 99 knots. Yeah...you'll have passengers puking in the isles trying to intercept that.

"Trust your insticts Trevor. You don't need to see that magenta line. You can pass the VOR's without it"

The trick to navigating without an FMC or GPS is to have a mental picture in your mind of where you are at all times. You do this with a chart and interpreting your instrument readings. VOR, DME, and NDB. The more you do it the better you get at it. Really! I don't want to blow my horn here, but I can navigate an airway to within a half mile with no direct nav-aid along the course using DME and cross fixes from VOR's left and right of the course. It's a lot of work, but I get a great deal of satisfaction from knowing how to do it and doing it accurately.

It's the only way to get from Paris to Munich for about a 150 mile stretch with three course changes in this airplane.

Of course, there's not much reason to build an NG if you don't take advantage of the automation, but it sure does deteriorate your navigation skills. The majority of kids flying a desktop with the latest and greatest have no idea how to get to point B from point A. Just dial in the course and hit 'GO'

I don't get much enjoyment out of that. Maybe they do, because the majority have never had to do it for real with a chart in their lap and a mental picture in their head and worry about how much fuel is on board...

[Trevor Hale]

I am a firm believer of cross checking my position while en route, but I personally believe I would benefit from a few flights of pure manual DC 10, Iron Knuckles DC9 or even Primitive 727.  I do know what you are referring to Mike when you suggest Why have the NG, without Automation, but I also believe One should be prepared to "Do the Manual Tango" if and when you have a nasty failure in the middle of World Flight.

I usually am pretty aware of my position, but could learn a lot from many of you.  Maybe I would even find a better appreciation for the art of chart reading.

[Boeing Skunk Works]

Truth be told, I don't know how to work all of that automation because I've never flown anything that advanced. I'd be so lost in an NG I wouldn't know where to start except for flying it manually.

The 727 navigates much like the same 172's I had my instrument training in and I'm very comfortable with that even if it's more work that using a computer. I don't know that my SA would be the same if I were to have an FMC aboard. My mind would wander and I'd lose track of where I was in a big hurry. Pretty soon I wouldn't know where I was without a lot of back tracking and checking.

I enjoy the workload and it keeps me sharp.

[jackpilot]

Trev, if you can fly to and from a VOR, that's all it takes, then you can crosscheck your position relative to left and right VORs radials and DME ,according to maps, and there you are navigating without the magenta line.

Actually I think thatlots of simmers do not use maps, mean paper maps, which is awkward because in real cockpit even the most sophisticated, paper maps are still in use. (or at worst on a screen!! in some 777).
When one knows how to read a map or an approach plate and can figure out all these numbers and abreviations, the hardest part is done and this is where fun and satisfaction begin.
But the automation of an NG or Airbus comes handy when you fly alone an airplane that is designed for two pilots...but programming a flight and looking at the airplane fly itself is at best boring.
Trev, try an manual STAR into Pearson, on your own without ATC or FMC, using  real approach plates with altitude, heading, distance  and speed limits....you'll see...its addictive!!
well, I think...lol

[Boeing Skunk Works]

Is is addictive. I wouldn't have it any other way.

[XOrionFE]

I like flying the VORs, NDBS (even though i find NDB tracking difficult), and using crossfixes.  In my instrument training, although I have the G1000 and there is a good mix of using the gps and all the gooddies, my instructor often puts the MFD in Reversion mode which basically takes away the map view and puts up another PFD, and then makes me fly using VORs and DME for navigation.   I do a lot of this.  In truth, it is much more challenging then the GPS and therefore more fun.   It is nice to have both though at our disposal.  In fact, NDBs are going away and I suspect within another 5-10 years tracking an NDB will be a lost art.     I also should note that I started flying in a steam gauge 172 and obtained my PPL in it prior to switching to a bird with the g1000 so I have been lucky to progress through both worlds.   

Back in the day (late 80's) when I flew in P-3s we even had a Navigator on board...haha...

[Boeing Skunk Works]

They are used much more in Europe. There's an NDB practically everywhere from OM's to use on departure and arrival procedures. They are used en-route too.

Used two today. One as the initial departure fix for the procedure and the other as the OM.

[XOrionFE]

Oops, your right, forgot about Europe.  Guess I better practice them :-)

[jackpilot]

Intercepting an ILS at 30 degrees angle when there is a NDB as an OM is a breeze! wether the HSI is steam or screen.!!

[XOrionFE]

my problem is more navigating using an NDB.  I always get confused but mainly in steam guage planes with a basic DG (no HSI) and RMI.   Tracking an NDB is tough to me.   

[Boeing Skunk Works]

It can be confusing at first. It doesn't seem natural to turn away from the needle to set up a WCA.

[Trevor Hale]

Trev, if you can fly to and from a VOR, that's all it takes, then you can crosscheck your position relative to left and right VORs radials and DME ,according to maps, and there you are navigating without the magenta line.

Actually I think thatlots of simmers do not use maps, mean paper maps, which is awkward because in real cockpit even the most sophisticated, paper maps are still in use. (or at worst on a screen!! in some 777).
When one knows how to read a map or an approach plate and can figure out all these numbers and abreviations, the hardest part is done and this is where fun and satisfaction begin.
But the automation of an NG or Airbus comes handy when you fly alone an airplane that is designed for two pilots...but programming a flight and looking at the airplane fly itself is at best boring.
Trev, try an manual STAR into Pearson, on your own without ATC or FMC, using  real approach plates with altitude, heading, distance  and speed limits....you'll see...its addictive!!
well, I think...lol

Yeah, when it comes to doing manual ILS, VOR's NDB's, Precision and non Presision approaches, I am ok.  I have the "Paper Maps, and the charts" got em all..  and I can do it, I just find it very taxing on my brain sometimes.. and probably can't do it all as quick as you boys can.  (The thing for me) is "INTERSECTIONS"  they do not have a radio freq.  literally when you are cleared to an INTERSECTION..  how the heck does someone in a 727 know where the intersection is and what it is called with out the ND?  Do you track both VOR's and when you see both needles switch you have an idea when you have crossed the intersection?

[Boeing Skunk Works]

On IVAO I would ask for a vector to the intersection or tell the I couldn't comply.

Amazing how many contollers don't check the equipment remarks on a filed flight plan.   

[Trevor Hale]

I understand.  so when you are not equipped, (As listed in the flight plan) you can't fly a proper Star unless you have vectors then?  Because most Star procedures are altitudes specified at intersections.

[Boeing Skunk Works]

Not at all. Most airports in Europe have RNAV procedures as well as FMC/GPS.

[ETomlin]

Guys, this is an AWESOME thread. Im very glad it was started, because as the OP stated, we do get so caught up in the building that we forget to talk about the flying part. In fact, during the initial release of JET45 AAS (Learjet avionics software) I spent quite a bit of time on email trying to explain how the system works in a flying environment to some folks that have very little 'flying' time under their belt and it got me to thinking about all of what has been discussed so far and how there's many builders who really have marginal knowledge on the flying part. For that reason, Im so very glad that I started my hardcore simming with FS98 and had to wait about 9 years before starting my cockpit build so that I had time to really focus on the flying portion, vs. the building aspect. In fact, I'd say that what I am seeing is the vast majority of new sim builders are folks that are very new to simming and are lacking a lot of details in the flight portion of flight simulation but are spending boo-koo bucks on hardware but no where near enough time for the flight learning. Off my soap box now...

To answer the original question, about actually flying...

Well, lately no. I am in the dead middle of a complete rebuild of my Learjet 45 sim. To give you an idea of what that means, I have a new full size shell, brand new Center Pedestal, Throttle Pedestal, REAL LJ45 throttle levers w/ flaps and spoiler levers/knobs, full scale water jet cut aluminum MIP and glare shield. Along with that is a complete set of backer panels made by Ron Rollo (almost everything else is made by him too) and I am rebuilding the seat bases due to the scale shell design. Add in the fact that Im fully enclosing the sim and building a new rollling case for the computers to sit on and I havent got the ability to fly with any controls (only via keyboard to test software!). However, when I do fly I have tended to do the checklists mentally only because I have been doing without all the buttons/switches installed for so long on the original version of the sim. There have been times (especially during a charity flight event I hosted 2 years ago) where we used the checklists as best as possible. However, I conceded to the fact that while I do have real LJ45 Crew books (checklists/pilot manual/operation manual) that until I get all the new hardware in place then I didnt really take the time to go through it all. However, I did go through the paces with ATC each time as well as following all the hard rules of aviation (speed restrictions, altitude limits on VFR, etc) while using Approach Plates, etc. I am majorly looking forward to getting all the new hardware installed and the sim interfaced with all the new switches in place so now, even if a switch is not actually connected to the sim, I can physically go through the entire checklist for each phase of flight and press the switch ON or OFF. That's what I have been waiting for! And thankfully, it's not too far off now thanks to my buds at Hangar 45 :-) But yes, I have always flown the aircraft, even if on Autopilot, by being in the left seat 99% of the time the engines were running. ( I have a cleverly placed mini fridge packed with near-frozen CocaCola in the sim hangar :-0). I love shooting a full ILS or VOR approach using a watch for timing the turns, etc. That's great stuff! AND, until a few months from now it's always been done without an FMS or autothrottle (LJ45 has no autothrottle).

Thanks again for starting this thread- the flying part is so important. For the past 2 years (11 years total as a hardcore simmer) I have always needed to make improvements to the sim, but the flying is what has kept me going. Peter Cos always makes that comment that if you dont keep your sim flyable then your liable to get burnt out on the building. I agree to a large extent. Let's keep flying while building :-)