Cockpitbuilders.com

Main => Builders Discussions => Topic started by: FredK on April 01, 2013, 02:40:53 PM

Title: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 01, 2013, 02:40:53 PM
My project over the winter was conversion of a 737 throttle quadrant that I acquired last fall.  I first must thank both Rob and Scott here for the invaluable information that they had posted previously on this subject.  I incorporated most of that guidance in my conversion project but also did some things differently which I would in turn like to share here.

This was my starting point. A TQ removed from N379UA, a United Airlines 737-322 vintage 1991:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FN379UA_zps4f7c469a.jpg&hash=6c0e50b832aece0da0b658c83093eabd9c395c60)

Note that the undercarriage support assembly was left intact when the TQ was removed. This was an advantage since by trimming off the bottom part with a Sawz-All I had a sturdy platform to mount my throttle motor drive assembly:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FTQ1_zps7c740de3.jpg&hash=826f51dd8f600081ae564775746eb1937df66783)

Some more pictures of the finished product:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FTQ3_zps5a3aa79c.jpg&hash=caeef37e85f8b2e98a2d08a2977e9e04a67caf18)

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FTQ2_zps79cea1f6.jpg&hash=acba60419c4e4d34cf97006f8d6a6c5865a4ce2c)

This is a photo of the overall throttle drive assembly:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FThrottleDriveAssembly_zps7d5b2695.jpg&hash=a9511f206febb2b2e131a7b8427cbd398e53fd0b)

I used two inexpensive high torque/low rpm(15) motors from RobotZone coupled to slip clutches (#S98CA6MMOC320838 from SDP/SI). These slip clutches are identical to the ones from Polyclutch reported here previously (I believe they are sourced from the same manufacturer). The string pots are as suggested previously (Unimeasure PA-LX-10).

Note that I used a 6mm-to-8mm coupling to connect the 6mm motor shaft to the 8mm slip clutch shaft. I supported the drive shaft on a pillow block to avoid any shaft deflection or bending.  The result was a very solid support for the drive:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FThrottleMotorMounts_zpscbabac4e.jpg&hash=d4e51472d686347b48d5f889e82d9aaa93e1a050)

I used a bearing pulley system as a guide for the string pot mount to minimize angular distortion:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FThrottleStringPot_zps0a71b056.jpg&hash=2d33784fce7fd4e9946686067baecb44ebe290f2)

The following shows the pulley mechanism I fabricated for the throttle levers:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FThrottlePullies_zpsd58d6f27.jpg&hash=3b4052d83a96d0bf5d773729baf934e081f0c553)

I used slide pots for my flaps and spoiler (Bourns 10K Thin B Taper).  In each case they are connected to push rods that are screw mounted into the sides of the respective wheels. The following shows the external slide pot mounting for the flaps and the servo mounting for the spoiler:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FFlapsandSpoilerMounts_zpsb3d89572.jpg&hash=de8ec5d45ca8e04c6d7d65dec6a86f2879148acd)

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FFlapsPot_zps69b367c6.jpg&hash=291f74ae52651f1031031bc4728b3321c91fd7c4)

The following shows the spoiler slide pot and servo assemblies. There was a lot of trial and error involved here to get the two assemblies to function together without binding.  The result turned out very well though:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FSpoilerAssembly_zpsa542ddb7.jpg&hash=7793caa93141e029541e5d8294199ef8fd792db7)

The following is the trim wheel motor mounting:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FTrimWheelMotorMount_zpsbd75b064.jpg&hash=2d32a20e5eafc6553a2cede8a9f3c7b4cb6b810f)

The following is the servo mounting for the trim gauges:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FTrimGaugeServo_zpsb3cbdd29.jpg&hash=0016574140f9a2aa3236875c0aa809c8cc584c59)

I used a magnetic catch approach for fashioning my parking brake switch using the existing connecting rod. Such required epoxying a metal plate onto the rod between two screw slip bushings:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FParkBrakeSwitch_zps0d138c0c.jpg&hash=8a239d9487bc2863bd0d0fc9cec5200a1a184429)

I plan to use the Open Cockpits USB DC Motors Plus board as an interface and have completed the wiring:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi1300.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fag89%2Ffredkura%2FUSBDCMotorsPlusBoard_zps27cf7ddd.jpg&hash=f0d4b842df55839e6c68cb33867d334a4be53bcf)

My next task is to do the SIOC programming.  I have some starting points but this is my first crack at doing such.....any help and guidance applicable to a motorized TQ would be much appreciated.

Overall I am very pleased with my project.  I took the time to disassemble and strip off all the old layers of paint and to spray paint component parts anew. So everything looks very clean.  I am particularly pleased with the feel of the throttle movement....there is virtually no play or looseness in the movement.  It all has a high quality feel.  I also soldered in replacement bulbs for the light plates so all that is in working order.  Those miniature bulbs cost an incredible $10 each from a certified Boeing supplier...there are 4-8 required for each light plate and about half were burnt out!

Fred K

Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: blueskydriver on April 01, 2013, 03:28:07 PM
Hi Fred,

Nice Work!

Will you please post a complete part list with part numbers, where you purchase them and the price for each item? That way others; including myself, can follow your plan much like Scott and Rob's. Currently, my TQ is not motorized, but it's on "the to do list" and moving up the list rather quickly. With your help, it'll be my next project from that list...

John
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Jetcos on April 01, 2013, 03:47:07 PM
Nice work Fred, worth the wait after the previous post about how to post pictures.   :)

Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: N737AG on April 01, 2013, 04:02:59 PM
Fred :

Very nicely done. Some nice solutions that got me thinking about the positioning of my motors.

Axel
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Nat Crea on April 01, 2013, 05:20:29 PM
Great work Fred!

I love how there are so many ways to skin a cat, and the use of the original pulleys.

Nat
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: XOrionFE on April 01, 2013, 06:44:39 PM
Looks great Fred!   There ain't nothing like having the real thing and knowing how it works along with your own engineering so that you can maintain it.  Fantastic job.  I hope someday to be able to visit and fly it!

Scott
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Sam Llorca on April 02, 2013, 05:19:07 AM
Great work Fred, AWESOME!!!
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sagrada737 on April 02, 2013, 06:23:13 AM
Hello Fred,

Outstanding job on completing the hardware modifications for your motorized TQ - nice work!  I appreciate the host of photos showing much of the detail for your mods.  Especially nice is the job you have done in organizing your various assemblies and wiring details to the OpenCockpits DCMotorsPlus card.

I wish I could help you with the SIOC challenge, but I am new to this language myself.  Hopefully folks with more hands-on experience with SIOC will chime in.  I assume that in your initial testing of the DC and servo motors, that you were able to test these functions.  How did you go about accomplishing that task, as well at testing the Inputs and Outputs?  Comments on this would be interesting as the DCMotorsPlus documentation is difficult to understand.

Is is possible to ask for a few more photos showing close-ups of the wiring to the DCMotorsPlus card?  Thanks.

Anyway, congratulations on a fine job of modifying your TQ.  I am sure it will be a great addition to your Sim Project.

Mike
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fsaviator on April 02, 2013, 06:47:13 AM
Very nice!  Great rundown!
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Jon Boe on April 02, 2013, 12:52:49 PM
Hi Fred,

Very nice!

Post a video of it in operation when you get the software portion completed.

Cheers,

Jon
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fordgt40 on April 02, 2013, 01:30:47 PM
Fred

Here is a copy of my throttle assembly sioc file with offsets for Sim A and using an OC DCmotors card and servos card. It should give you a head start, but you will need to modify it to suit your hardware. The file is in .doc format to allow coloured comments, so you will need to change it to .txt via notepad.

Regards

David

Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 02, 2013, 03:26:39 PM
QuoteFred

Here is a copy of my throttle assembly sioc file with offsets for Sim A and using an OC DCmotors card and servos card. It should give you a head start, but you will need to modify it to suit your hardware. The file is in .doc format to allow coloured comments, so you will need to change it to .txt via notepad.

Regards

David

David -

Much appreciated!

Warren also passed on his script.  I do have a general knowledge of software programming but this is my first crack at SIOC so this will give me a headstart on things.  I figure it is about time I learned about SIOC anyhow.  I'm even sort of looking forward to it as a challenge.  Hopefully that will not transition into frustration once I get into it.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: jetpilot on April 02, 2013, 04:52:54 PM
Fred,
Thank you for this post.
Currently my TQ is completely apart, so your post give me some additional ideas, besides the ones that I have learned from Scott.
I have a question (And may be I am missing something here):
You installed a motor to move the trim wheels, but how does flight simulator knows the position of them? don't you need a potentiometer or something to feed back this info into the sim?
Thank you

Roberto C
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 02, 2013, 05:51:57 PM
QuoteFred,
Thank you for this post.
Currently my TQ is completely apart, so your post give me some additional ideas, besides the ones that I have learned from Scott.
I have a question (And may be I am missing something here):
You installed a motor to move the trim wheels, but how does flight simulator knows the position of them? don't you need a potentiometer or something to feed back this info into the sim?
Thank you

Roberto C

Roberto -

The simple answer is that FS never really knows the position of the trim wheels.   The programming is simply set up to move the wheels in the appropriate direction and speed when FS is calling for elevator trim movement and when applying electric trim adjustment.  Since no one actually uses the wheels for adjusting trim this is for visual eye candy effect only.  Not worth the effort to figure out a way to have it operational as an input or to correlate such exactly. Would be difficult to do.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sagrada737 on April 03, 2013, 03:33:18 AM
Hello Fred,

You mentioned that you were just beginning to explore using SIOC for control of your newly configured motorized TQ.  Your choice of using the OpenCockpits (OC) USB DC Motors Plus card seems appropriate, but unfortunately, the documentation is a bit sketchy. 

Below are a couple of links that you might find helpful for applying SIOC programming to this type of OC USB DC Motor Card. 

This information does not exactly reference the USB DC Motors Plus card that you are using, but it does apply to OpenCockpits DC Motors cards in general.   The associated SIOC references within this information may be helpful to you.  Of course, the SIOC TQ code that David posted is another very useful reference - especially to help one understand the logic he used to apply the SIOC coding - no sense in reinventing the wheel.  The Mutley's Hangar link is interesting and a practical review of the DC Motors card that is easy to understand.

Hessel Oosten's excellent USBDC motors guide (.txt file):
http://www.mediafire.com/?4b0vtg59w7b24bz (http://www.mediafire.com/?4b0vtg59w7b24bz)

Mutley's Hangar review of OC's DC Motor Card   
http://www.mutleyshangar.com/reviews/jack/dcm/dcm.htm (http://www.mutleyshangar.com/reviews/jack/dcm/dcm.htm)

Hope this helps to move progress forward on your motorized TQ project.  By the way...   As you most likely already appreciate, it is always important to add comments to each section/line of your SIOC code describing exactly what is being done within a function/operation.  This makes it easier to understand your code at a later point in time, and easier to communicate your code to someone else.

Mike
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 03, 2013, 01:53:31 PM
Thanks Mike!

I had not seen those references.

Much appreciated!

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Flight_Master on April 03, 2013, 10:15:11 PM
Hi Fred,

Great job on interfacing the TQ. I'm working on mine as well, but I kept the white base that can be seen on your first picture and that is where I placed all the guts. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the way you placed your DC card, motors etc., you will not be able to install orginal pedestal/radio box unless you have an alternative? If you would like I can send you few pictures showing my solution. It was a quite tight fit but doable.

I'm also looking for help with SIOC script as I bought DC motor plus card specifically for the throttle but I'm struggling with the code. I hope your thread will give the community lots of information on how to do it. Big thanks to other that are always willing to help.

BTW if you need bulbs for the light plate, you can get them at many location for less than a buck. Let me know if you need more info.

Best,

Piotr Niedzwiedz
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: N737AG on April 04, 2013, 05:17:20 AM
Piotr

I think we all would love to see your pictures. Also the reference for the bulbs would be very useful for many of us.

Thank you

Axel
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 04, 2013, 05:29:16 AM
QuoteHi Fred,

Great job on interfacing the TQ. I'm working on mine as well, but I kept the white base that can be seen on your first picture and that is where I placed all the guts. Please correct me if I'm wrong but the way you placed your DC card, motors etc., you will not be able to install orginal pedestal/radio box unless you have an alternative? If you would like I can send you few pictures showing my solution. It was a quite tight fit but doable.

I'm also looking for help with SIOC script as I bought DC motor plus card specifically for the throttle but I'm struggling with the code. I hope your thread will give the community lots of information on how to do it. Big thanks to other that are always willing to help.

BTW if you need bulbs for the light plate, you can get them at many location for less than a buck. Let me know if you need more info.

Best,

Piotr Niedzwiedz

I will be using the "home built" pedestal panel that exists in my current setup.  I will simply install a removable shelf over the throttle lever drive mechanism of the TQ to protect it from any hanging wires from the NAV radios etc.  By having the shelf removable will provide easy access to anything that needs servicing.  The position of the OC interface board is low enough that it clears the Fire Handle panel in the pedestal.

I do have the original pedestal panel for this TQ as shown in the first picture.  It could be made to work in my case but would require significant cutting out to achieve the fit.  The net is that I am happy with my current pedestal panel that is a pretty good replica and that is customized in some other ways for my setup.  So it is the easiest way to go.

I'm sure others would be interested in seeing your solution though.

BTW....I do have the original pedestal base and am willing to sell if anyone is interested.  It is a "three bay" which is rare to find.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: blueskydriver on April 04, 2013, 08:36:00 AM
Fred sent you PM.

John
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: 727737Nut on April 04, 2013, 09:32:28 AM
Nice work Fred!! Nothing beats the real parts!

Rob
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Flight_Master on April 04, 2013, 05:48:40 PM
Quote from: N737AG on April 04, 2013, 05:17:20 AM
Piotr

I think we all would love to see your pictures. Also the reference for the bulbs would be very useful for many of us.

Thank you

Axel

Axel,

These bulbs are made by JKL Components. Part # 6832. I bought these bulbs to fix light plate on my TQ as well as to backlight other panels. You can find them on Mouser.com part # 560-6832


Piotr
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Flight_Master on April 04, 2013, 07:29:28 PM
Fred,

Here are few photos of how I interfaced my TQ using original base. I tried my best to use original cables and pulleys, so there is a smooth operation without any interference as we all know it is a quite tight fit. The only thing I haven't finish yet is the trim wheel and speedbrake motor . Also I spent considerable amount of time trying to figure it out pin outs on the bottom of the throttle so I didn't have to run new wires to switches and backlighting. I have a list that I can make available to anyone. Anyway here is my setup. 


On the bottom I built extension platform to accommodate motors.
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb338%2FFlight_master%2F82ffbcf5-67e0-4122-a480-d77ebc0bf265_zpse9513609.jpg&hash=422d197f1e53b7ca0532fbe5a7ef86ab4dece206)

Here is general view how I routed cables for the throttle levers. In blue, location of original pulleys.
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb338%2FFlight_master%2FIMG-20130404-00480-Copy_zps3bed4172.jpg&hash=66f86121144f92b3da0a6802f153bc82b51df197)

Close up of pulleys at the bottom base. You can also see and actuator (black) used for parking brake.
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb338%2FFlight_master%2FIMG-20130404-00485_zpsd88dd727.jpg&hash=87b88b6e452b00c25523d9480ca6aff94e085445)

DC motor and string potentiometer
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb338%2FFlight_master%2FIMG-20130404-00486_zpseb44638d.jpg&hash=443a8c4cfe06f11fd34d199c65057222d8951951)

Flap lever cable. Original pulley bracket. I removed the pulley and I used sprocket instead. Potentiometer connected directly to sprocket.
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb338%2FFlight_master%2FIMG-20130404-00482_zps7580ce91.jpg&hash=ca37dc380d11e587847babe43863b52d2907588f)

Regular servo connected to trim indicator arm. Works very smooth with Prosim.
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb338%2FFlight_master%2FIMG-20130404-00487_zps42d13842.jpg&hash=e1f7b8f534ea89f1f2ee9e36d590fd5ed02105aa)


Here is the DC motor card with few other things. Installed at top of bottom base. Very tight fit in a two bay pedestal but it works.
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb338%2FFlight_master%2FIMG-20130404-00490_zps95e37c39.jpg&hash=d0577b86c785d52391c6dbe0238bc837b7905738)

I hope this helps little bit.

Piotr
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 05, 2013, 05:11:14 AM
Piotr -

Nice Work!

It is clear that there are many ways to skin this cat!

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: N737AG on April 05, 2013, 07:33:38 AM
Piotr

Thanks for the bulb info and of course for the pictures.

I am trying to make something similar as you did. However, since my platform is from a real plane, I can not have the DC motors standing out. So there I have a real challenge.

Thanks again

Axel
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Flight_Master on April 05, 2013, 05:38:15 PM
Axel,

With some smaller motors and good technical skills, you might be able to install the motors on the inside of the base. But there are few challenges if you try to use the original pulleys. 1.) The pulleys are at slight angle directing the cables away from the center. 2.) If you look the picture the location of the motor sprocket  is pretty much the maximum you can towards left (in a pulley direction). If I would move the motor half inch to the left I would not have a full movement of the throttle lever because the chain would get stuck on the pulley. Shortening the chain is not an option too as it already the shortest it can be.
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi22.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fb338%2FFlight_master%2FIMG-20130404-00486_zpseb44638d.jpg&hash=443a8c4cfe06f11fd34d199c65057222d8951951)

Good luck,

Piotr

   
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: jetpilot on April 18, 2013, 09:09:57 AM
Hi Fred,
I was wondering if you have been able to test yout TQ? Any feedback on the way it is working? Are you happy with the parts you used? would you change something? Motors? anything?

Thank you

Roberto C
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 18, 2013, 01:01:15 PM
Quote
Hi Fred,
I was wondering if you have been able to test yout TQ? Any feedback on the way it is working? Are you happy with the parts you used? would you change something? Motors? anything?

Thank you

Roberto C

The thing is I hit a snag with the OC DC MotorPlus Card. The first card I had was defective - it was not recognized by either the SIOC software or the computer as a USB device.  At that point I simply ordered a second card since returning the first was not worth the hassle and shipment cost back to Spain. Well the second card was dead-on-arrival as well.  So I sent back both cards under warranty. My surmise is that the microchips on the cards were never flash programmed in each case, but I do not know that for certain (but OC had mentioned that might have been the problem).  In any event OC has just today informed me that the replacement cards have been shipped. So they will be here next week and I will get the ball rolling again....and I will also have a backup card available to swap in if anything ever goes wrong in the future.

Will keep the thread posted on new updates as they happen.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sagrada737 on April 24, 2013, 03:15:34 PM
Hello Fred,

It is interesting to hear of your experiences with the Open Cockpits USB DCMotors Plus card.  I too purchase and received a USB DCMotors Plus Card, and it was defective (It would not operate above 8 volts DC for the external motor supply).  The nice folks at OpenCockpits replaced the card, and I received it today.  The new card now operated correctly at 12 volts DC for the external power supply. 

However, even with the new card, I am seeing an issue that is puzzling to me...   If I use the OpenCockpits test software to check out the USB DCMotors Plus card, ALL the functions (Servos, Inputs, Outputs, and Motors) operate correctly.  Here is a link to their test software:
http://www.opencockpits.com/index.php/en/download (http://www.opencockpits.com/index.php/en/download)

But, when I try to coding a simple function like checking for an Input with SIOC, the card does not seem to operate correctly.  I have been thinking that it is my beginning effort with SIOC, but with your post indicating problems with your DCMotors Plus card, I am thinking that maybe it is the processor on the card that may be the issue.

Would you test run your USB DCMotors Plus card using the OC test software to check its functions, and let me know if you also get everything to work correctly.  This might help us in sorting out this problem.  Also, would you post some wimple SIOC code of how you are testing the DC Motors Plus card.  Thanks.

By contrast, I hear that folks are not having any problems with the standard DC motors card.  It will be interesting to get your feedback on this issue.

Mike
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 25, 2013, 01:24:51 PM
Hi Mike -

At this point it is sort of the blind leading the blind on this.  I just received the replacement cards and both work to the extent that they operate the motors and servos correctly using defined input values in the IOCP console in SIOC.  However within this very limited testing I have observed that the cards will sometimes disconnect unexpectedly. One of the cards seems more prone to this behavior than the other. This has me a bit concerned at this point, but I need to do a bit more testing with wiring in the pots and switches etc. before I come to a conclusion.

For example right now I have no direct cooling on the card (i.e, a fan).  The manual does state that there is a temperature protection circuit and that cooling is required. One of the heat sinks does get quite hot pretty fast I noticed. So perhaps a simple fan will eliminate that problem, but I have to set it all up and test it in that regard.

There is a lot that is packed into this card. It is a neat solution if it can work reliably, but I will be very disappointed if it acts finicky and cuts out periodically.  The fact that you would need a cooling fan at all is a bit disconcerting in and of itself.  My currently installed TQ runs on Phidgets using DVATX and that setup is absolutely rock solid.....never a problem. Perhaps using a separate motor card as others have done is a more reliable path, but I do not know that for certain at this point.  I may all work fine in the end.

Regarding testing the SIOC code. My only suggestion at this point is to reproduce one of the basic input/output codes in the SIOC software manual and test that.  If that does not work (and assumably that is where you are currently at) I would suggest to contact Miguel at OC. He has been very responsive to this point.  Send him the code and ask for his advice. There is also the OC forum, but it seems rarely does anybody answer anything there.

Unfortunately within the next week or so I will not have very much time to play with all this due to my schedule. I do hope to get the basic testing of all wired functions completed and perhaps some simple test coding this weekend so I will report all that as it progresses.

A question for all readers though....Is there anyone here who does have experience with this card in any way that can chime in regarding reliability?  I am keeping my fingers crossed at this point.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sagrada737 on April 25, 2013, 04:47:34 PM
Hello Fred,

Thanks for the comprehensive reply.

Regarding the "noise" on this USB DC MotorsPlus Card...   I too have noticed that this card has a high degree of noise on the various circuit lines (as monitored with an oscilloscope).  This is further aggravated when the DC motor is turn ON, and/or its direction reversed.  The result being that sometimes the USB port will disconnect.

Open Cockpits suggests that a 10 mf capacitor be placed on any active potentiometer Analog inputs (across the GND and the +5v connections on the terminal blocks).  For any "unused" Analog inputs (AN1 - AN8),  I simply shorted the GND an the Central connections, thereby forcing the input to zero (0).  All this seems to have eliminated the problem of shutting down the USB port.  I tested this by writing a simple SIOC test code that runs a 12 volt dc motor, a servo and an output LED, with a potentiometer setup to cause active and rapid changes in direction of the motor and servo, and status of the LED.

As far as the heat generated by this card...   Most of the heat is due to the centrally located Voltage Regulator (7805), which supplies 5 volts to the card's components.  This is due to the regulator having to dissipate all the heat in bringing down the 12 volts to 5 VDC.  I have measured the temperature on the 7805 and it gets up to 200 degrees F.  Clearly this regulator will need some cooling - especially if the card is located in an enclosed space.  This will probably be even more important if there the card is fully populated with Servos and Motors.  I am guessing that a better solution will be to use an External 5 volt regulated power supply to handle the card's power requirements.

I think that the USB DC Motors Plus Card is potentially a nice solution, as it provided a lot of various interface on a single card that can be controlled via SIOC.  However, I too wonder, and frankly am amazed by the lack of user feedback on this USB DC MotorsPlus card.  It's like we are the only two people on the planet that are trying to use this card.  A bit exaggerated, but surely someone on this Forum will help us out with some feedback.

Hopefully we will both see some "blue sky" on this promising interface card.

Mike
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 25, 2013, 05:20:53 PM
Mike -

Thanks for that information.  I too have experienced the cutting out on reversal of the throttle levers motors but only when using the highest value (voltage) inputs. Step the values down a bit away from the maximums and it seems to work.  I also saw the capacitor recommendation but did not think of shorting the unused inputs. I'm glad to know those will resolve the problem (hopefully).  And I agree that the external 5V power supply would also be the more logical way to go.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fordgt40 on April 26, 2013, 09:48:50 AM
Quote from: sagrada737 on April 24, 2013, 03:15:34 PM
But, when I try to coding a simple function like checking for an Input with SIOC, the card does not seem to operate correctly.  I have been thinking that it is my beginning effort with SIOC, but with your post indicating problems with your DCMotors Plus card, I am thinking that maybe it is the processor on the card that may be the issue.

Mike

I suggest you post your code that you are having problems with and I can have a look at it for you

Regards

David
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 26, 2013, 01:32:49 PM
Mike -

Are you planning to use caps across each DC motor lead as well?  It seems to make sense to me since the DC motors are assumably the primary source of any electrical "noise" in the first place. Can't hurt I would think.  Such is suggested in what I have been researching on the internet as applied to robotics etc. However it is not mentioned in the OC manual.....only for the pots as you noted above. And then there are the servos if you really want to get crazy about it all, but most servos already have caps built in I have read. Again, I have to find the time to sort all this out with my setup.  My DC motors are somewhat remote from where the board is located in my setup so that should minimize electromagnetic interference I would think, but not line interference of course. I have ordered some capacitors to play with but will check with my local Radio Shack to see if they have any so I can test this weekend.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sagrada737 on April 26, 2013, 07:25:06 PM
Hello Fred,

I have been running some tests with the DC motors with the USB DCMotorPlus card.  It seems that this card is especially sensitive to motor noise.  If I don't use any filtering on the DC motors, I will get a shut-down of the USB port in a fairly short time.  This requires rebooting the USB device (essentially re-powering the card).  This sort of electrical behavior can't be normal, but I suspect it is known by OpenCockpits, hence their caution on the noise generated by various DC motors.

What I have done to make this card more stable is the following:

- the 10mF capacitor on each potentiometer Analog input.
- Grounding each unused Analog input.
- adding a L-C filter "H-Bridge Circuit" on the active DC motor  (.01 mF for the Capacitors, with 200 mH for each inductor coil).
- added a small fan to cool the 5 volt voltage regulator (L7805)

Here is one of many good links on DC motor noise suppression techniques that might be helpful to you.

http://www.kerrywong.com/2012/01/26/a-short-guide-on-motor-electrical-noise-reduction/ (http://www.kerrywong.com/2012/01/26/a-short-guide-on-motor-electrical-noise-reduction/)

Give all this a try, which might be helpful for you to achieve more stable performance out of this card.

In all this, the Servo operations seem somewhat benign.

As far as sorting out SIOC programming issues...   This is quite a learning curve, as thinking out the logical "Event Driven" strategies is confusing, but I'm sure I'll get better at it.  I think it is helpful to map out a logic strategy, with flow diagrams to help in creating the SIOC code.  I now have all the basic functions working correctly in a single test program (servo, input, output, analog, DC motor).  Having confirmed the basic setup, I can now start on more complex interactions with this USB DCMotorPlus card.

I think it would be a good idea to swap some SIOC code to help in the learning curve.  Although my beginnings are not that impressive.

Mike
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on April 27, 2013, 05:40:30 AM
Mike -

Thanks for that link. There is a lot of stuff out there about how to suppress DC electrical noise, but it is all over the map.  For example I read somewhere that a simple 10mF capacitor across the motor leads will work, but your L-C filter reference takes things a step further. Capacitor specifications also vary all over the place.  One really has to have more than a basic understanding of electrical circuits to pinpoint what would work best for any particular setup.  That goes beyond my capability which is at a trial-and-error level.

I have been away from this for a few days but am anxious to find the time to explore it all.  I will have some time tonight and tomorrow. After that I have house guests here through next weekend which shuts me down completely. Also hopefully my local Radio Shack has some capacitors I can use, otherwise I have to wait until I receive what I ordered.

I am also going to shoot off an e-mail to OC to see if they have any advice.  As you say it would appear to be a known issue, but placing caps across the motors is not mentioned in the manual at all....just across the analogue input connections. 

Mike - Look for the PM I sent you.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Masterploxis on May 27, 2013, 08:29:16 AM
Dear All,

thanks for nice informative thread. I bought a 737-300 Throttle 2 months ago. Currently i do the research on the components i need. Initially i wanted to buy the OC DcMotor plus card but is seems that this card will not run stable without modification....

So - i might consider a phidgets solution....

But the most important question i have is - what kind of motor should i take. I saw some motors with gearbox, some without gearbox. I do not have a clue which would be the best. Is there a general rule to follow considering torque and rpm ratio ? I mean i could by a DC motor for 40 € or for 100 €-..??!!??

If anybody could give me a short Bill of material of a solid working system - i would highly appreciate it.
Another point of interest would be the potentiometer to use. I saw that string pots are used. What kind to you use., travel and how much impedance is needed ?

Any help would be highly appreciated for this next challenging task of a Throttle conversion.

Thanks and many greetings from Germany !
Andy

www.masterploxis.de (http://www.masterploxis.de)
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on May 27, 2013, 11:25:30 AM
A status update and reply to Andy's questions.......

I have completed some further definitive testing of the OC DC MotorPlus card and can now report some very good results.

The testing I am doing is with the card mounted and wired to all components on the TQ.

I had the setup operating for a full hour without any disconnects, failures, or non-reproducibility whatsoever.  During the test I had all three DC motors running continuously varying speed and direction throughout using value entries in the IOCP console. I also operated the two servos intermittently.  Analog pot readings were steady and reproducible throughout.  Without using caps across the analog connectors I was getting readings of +/- 1 value unit which is plenty good enough.......with using caps the readings appeared even steadier.  Again, reproducibility was very good.

For the pots I am using ports AN 5-6-7-8.  In previous testing I found ports AN 1-2-3-4 to be problematic and to have extremely unacceptable noise interference (however I have not yet tried to wire caps across those).

Important finding:  For the motor operation I did find that there are input value limits at the high end for each motor which if exceeded will stop all activity on the card.  The card stays USB connected (according to the SIOC software) but nothing operates....all motors stop, analogue value readings stop, etc. All goes dead although the led on the card is still illuminated.  Closing and rebooting the SIOC software restores the connection.  I found that the value limits not to be exceeded are specifically reproducible for each motor so thankfully this seems not to be a random event but rather some current or voltage that is being specifically exceeded somewhere in the circuitry.

The following are the acceptable operating value ranges for each of my motors:

Throttle Motor #1:  40-127(the max value input in this case) and reverse 170-240 (higher than 240 cuts everything off)
Throttle Motor #2:  30-120(higher does not work) and reverse 160-255 (the max in this case)
Trim Wheel Motor #3: 40-120 (higher does not work) and reverse 160-240 (higher does not work)

As long as I input values within these ranges there are no failures whatsoever even on changes in direction of rotation.  This range of speed motion is fully acceptable for this application even with this slightly truncated value range.

All switches worked fine when operated randomly within the test.

I did not have any special cooling on the card........The heat sinks did get somewhat hot but not excessively so......I have experienced a lot worse.

For my servos I am using Hitec HS-Y22 for the trim gauge and Hitec HS-815BB for the spoiler arm.  The trim gauge servo works perfectly. The spoiler arm servo never seems to come to a fully neutral state after a value is inputted.  It does move to where it should be but there is a very slight hum that indicates there still is a slight load on the motor.  If I jiggle the lever it stops. That particular servo is a very high torque spec....I might try a different model to see if it makes a difference.  In any event since the spoiler arm motor operates so infrequently I believe I can live with it if necessary.  The servo did get warm during the hour long test but did not fail.

So I have to conclude that given the extreme operating conditions of the test (constant motor activity) the card should work fine for this application given the particular components I am using.  The DC motors I am using are the typical small 12V robot motors. I am using low rpm models for the throttle levers (15rpm/high torque).  Lever motion is very smooth and the motors are definitely not overworked (no evidence of any binding or heat at all) yet I am extremely pleased with the firm feel of moving the throttle levers manually. So these type motors are all you need and may actually be a plus regarding minimizing noise interference versus using more heavy duty DC motors.

I need to find some time to get into the actual SIOC script programming.  I intend to tackle the throttle operation first.   All else will be a piece of cake!

To answer Andy's questions specifically:

Throttle Lever motors:
ServoCity.com
PG12-200P 15rpm precision gear motor

Trim Wheel motor:
Lynxmotion.com
GHM-12 Gear Head Motor
12VDC 30:1 253rpm

Trim Gauge servo:
Hitec HS Y-22

Spoilers servo:
Hitec HS 815BB
(this is a very high torque spec, I may try an alternative relative to my comments above)

Spoilers and Flaps slide pots:
Alps RSAON1119A02
10K ohm thin B taper (linear)

Throttle lever string pots:
Unimeasure LX-PA-10

Sprocket gear for throttle lever drive:
ServoCity.com
RHS-250-24 24 teeth #25 plastic sprocket gear

The main issue regarding using the small robotics type motors specified above (shaft is typically 6mm)  is getting them to mate with the slip clutch (8mm).  For that I found a coupler:
DumpsterCNC.com
Coupler Size "A"
SAC1: Side 1: 6mm bore, Side 2: 8mm bore

I then supported the whole shaft assembly as shown in the pics above with a pillow block:
SDP-SI.com
A 7Z32MPB008MP 8mm Bore, Pillow-Mounted with PTFE
Impregnated Bronze Press Bearing

That is the report for now....

Fred



Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fordgt40 on May 28, 2013, 01:45:07 AM
Andy

There is some useful information in this thread

http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=780.msg6206#msg6206 (http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=780.msg6206#msg6206)

David
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Masterploxis on August 20, 2013, 12:42:49 AM
Hello dear TQ-Converters,

after i started the initial planning activities - some question came up:

1. The rotation angle of the throttle levers is from Idle to full power approx. 60 degrees. Pulling the reversers will turn the throttle discs additionaly.
Can anybody tell me the total angle - the disc is turned, full throttle -> 60° -> idle -> ? -> revers ??

It is a little bit hard to measure. At the moment i am doing the calculations and the design of my autothrottle system and i need the total angle to calculate the travel way for the cables and sprocket chain...

Or can anybody tell me the travel way ? From Full power to revers - how much distance is a specific point on the cable / sprocket chain travelling ?

2. Another questions is related to the trim gauge servo. Sure you use a HS-Y22 from Hitec ? I was not able to find this partivular model. Only HS225BB was shown. From my understanding - the Trim gauge servo does not need to have as much torque force as the Speed Brake servo.

3. Throttle Lever String Pots LX PA-10: Are they really so expensive ? I get a price of approx. 100 € per piece here in germany. So i might consider an alternative solution to get the postition of the Levers. Maybe sliding pot via some lever construction or a rotary potentiometer which gets the movement of the chain from a sprocket gear. Most Sliding pots have 90mm travel way - so i need to to get complete travel way (from my first question) scaled down to 90 mm to use the available resolution of the sliding pot.

These will not be the last questions i have to ask during this project. ; ))
Cheers
Andy
www.masterploxis.de (http://www.masterploxis.de)
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Masterploxis on November 07, 2013, 11:31:05 AM
Hello Guys,

i need your help. I wired the draw wire sensor to my USB mtor plus card to the AN 1 connector. If i start the Test programm for this card - i can see that the wire sensor basically is working. The pull out distance is 250 mm in total (10inch). So i assume that the resistor value should be 0 and max value when the wire is pulled out completely.

But the problem is: I can pull out the wire for 2 inch - the values are changing, if i pull out more, no change. So it seems that the wire sensor is only working to a certain extent. I have the same issue when i connect the draw wire sensor to a Bodnar 836X card. In the system repferences (calibrate game controller) i can see that the axis indicator is changing.

Also FSUIPC axis shows me changing values until i reach a certain pull out disctance.

I did not buy the LX-PA-10 as you have but a similiar model from a chinese supplier - it is industry quality and i think the sensors are ok. I habe two tand the probelms shows on both.

Maybe th cause for the problem could be the following:

The working voltage is 12-24V. I think the bodnar card and the USB DC motor plus card provide only 5V out. Could this be reason that the encoder only work to certain degree and after that the resistance gets to high to be reocgnized ??? Can i increase the supply voltage to the draw wire encoder somehow ?? How did you do it and did you have the same problems as me ?  I think that the draw wire approach is very common when converting an original TQ and some you might have an input for me.

I would really highly appreciate any help.....

Andy from Germany
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: 727737Nut on November 07, 2013, 02:19:56 PM
It is normal to have some line out before it starts reading.  You have to set-up for this mechanically   It sounds like you have a 2" pull set-up   I used one of those on my pitch axis.   
Rob
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on November 07, 2013, 03:53:05 PM
Andy -

Simply use a multimeter to measure the max and min resistance values over the travel of the string pull (you don't have to hook it up to the motor card card for that).  The min should be "0" and the max should be what your particular model is rated for (for example 1000 ohms). That will definitively determine the working status of the unit. If you get a reading of '1000' at only 2 inches then it really is not a 10 inch pull.  If you only get 20% of max across the entire pull then the unit is defective. This will also rule out whether or not there is a problem with the OC motor card.

Fred K
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Masterploxis on November 07, 2013, 09:55:34 PM
Dear All,

i took the sensor to my company and let it have checked by our electronics people.

The think is, the sensors do not give out a resistance value from 0 - 1000 Ohm, but 0 - 5.2 V.

So the output is a voltage change and not a resistance change. This is common for machine control systems (they said. So the question is - is there a possibility to use the voltage and have it read by some hardware (Phidgets ?) anmd processed into a value which can be read by SIOC or FSUIPC. So far i know, the hardware we use for homecockpits is processing resistance values for axis assignments and not voltage values.

Unfortunately i cannot get the sensors replaced by the ones with a clear resistance output - so i really need to find way to use a voltage value as position indicator for FSUIPC or SIOC.

Andy
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on December 28, 2013, 05:56:46 AM
Just wanted to finish the story on this.......

I finally found the time to complete the SIOC script for my TQ conversion project.  The TQ is fully motorized including spd break lever actuation (either via "armed" on landing or via application of reverse thrust on an RTO or after landing).  I am very pleased with the results.  Throttle lever motion is much improved over my old servo-operated TQ. If anyone is interested in the script let me know....it is written specifically for SimA but can be modified otherwise of course.

The Open Cockpits "DCMotorsPlus" interface has operated flawlessly to this point.  I am using caps across the pot connectors to ensure elimination of any noise interference as suggested in the instruction manual.

FredK
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sagrada737 on December 28, 2013, 06:52:10 AM
Congratulations Fred on "Motorizing" you TQ.  That's is no small set of tasks, and it is good to hear that it is working well.

Also, I appreciate your willingness to provide  the SIOC code (hopefully with comments on the functions).  Perhaps you can post it here.  Thanks.

Best Regards,
Mike
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fordgt40 on December 28, 2013, 01:03:00 PM
I should also be interested in seeing this

David
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Nat Crea on December 28, 2013, 01:42:44 PM
Congratulations  Fred.
Although I'm using Phidgets,  your contribution
is worth gold to future SIOC TQ builders. Thank you.

Nat
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: blueskydriver on December 28, 2013, 05:13:31 PM
Hi Fred,

Could I get a copy of the SIOC file please?

John
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: jetpilot on December 28, 2013, 05:18:25 PM
Fred,
Is there any chance you make a little video of your TQ working?? :)
Also I believe that if you are willing to share the SIOC code, this is the right place.
Thank you
Roberto C
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Jan737 on December 28, 2013, 11:35:43 PM
Hi Fred,

Could I get a copy of the SIOC file please?

Jan
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Sudden81 on December 29, 2013, 12:39:21 AM
Hello !

I bought OC interface card , I have been dissatisfied.

I have been dissatisfied with :
1) SIOC . Have to get help from a frien to program SIOC
2) If you unplug the USB and switch connections with other USB devices , the card get a new address , resulting in the need to change in the script.
3) 7 segment displays are lit even when the computer is off
4) The cards are unstable for me

This is just what I heard from others , have no personal experience :
5 ) Their servo cards do not have much control options , Axle Ration update frequency, filters etc..
6) Their DC motor card also has shortcomings
7) Steppermotor card is not very precise? Or many possibilities.
8) Servo card is not particularly exact if compared with Pololu.


Anyway why I wonder because I have a real TQ and if it is really worth buying this DC Plus card.

Is not 10 bit and 8 bit incredibly low resolution ?

Leobodnar has 12-bit . =4096 steps

If compared with other DC motor card (Phidget , Pololu) potentiometer cards, etc. How does this benefit besides that everything is in one card?

Anyone can show a video with this card? Or Multiple? TO / GA. N1 indication when you slowly pull the handles forward and how N1 slowly and gently moves up. Yes such a precise demonstration that possible? Please!

Sincerely, Jacob!
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fsaviator on December 29, 2013, 01:21:09 AM
Jacob,

Ian Sissons talks about using a polulu I think for motorizing a TQ on his site.  It is doable.  There are several threads here that deal with modifying real TQs and motorizing others and not all are using OC.

My RSP 1.5 Proline (the works) has three cards.  Two OC DC motor cards, and a joystick card.  If I ever have to, I'll probably replace the two DC cards with the DC plus card.  The TQ works great.  it needs a tune-up right now which is frustrating for me as I don't SIOC very well, but I'm plugging away at it and learning slowly.

I keep my USB plugs in the same place so not too many issues.  It is easy enough to change the assignment in the SIOC.INI though if for whatever reason you have to.

If you are dissatisfied or have issues using OC cards, I would suggest you not go that route in the first place.  As you know, SIOC requires some learning.  It can be very frustrating troubleshooting a hardware issue, while trying to learn the software for that particular issue at the same time.

I can tell you that if you take the time to learn it (I haven't, so I speak from experience) SIOC, and OC interfaces are the most versatile, and the best bang for the buck.  In fact, OC even provides the ability to make your own cards.  I had a faulty key card for my second CDU.  The money it would have cost me to send it back, I was able to buy a chip programmer and a chip, then clone the good chip from the other CDU keycard...  back up and running.

It may appear the most "clunky" and large in comparison to newer interfaces, but it set the standard early and I find more and more that you can do ANYTHING with the right mixture of cards and scripts and it isn't tied to one type of airplane.

I started with OC, went away and have a mixture of other cards in my sim, but with my overhead, and TQ, I find myself going back to OC little by little.  My RSP TQ, my two CDU's, my Forward and aft overhead are all run with SIOC now.  My only complaint?  Lack of a clear A-Z manual in English.

Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fordgt40 on December 29, 2013, 03:25:52 AM
Jacob

Yes, SIOC is challenging but worth the effort. It is extremely powerful and quick. I run my whole pit on OC cards 2 usb Expansion, 6 mastercards, 5 display cards, 3 servo cards, 2 Output cards , 1 dcmotors card and I USBkeys. All run steadily and with no problems. It is important to use adequate power supplies, the correct gauge wire and do not use cheap chinese USB Hubs

I have the earlier DCmotors card running my throttle levers and the 8 bit resolution is no problem - movement is as smooth as silk. The key is to use a good quality pot with say a minimum of three turns from min to max and then connected via gearing to the throttle levers. This way you avoid jitters and/or hunting. The beauty of SIOC is that you have easy control of the motors and all ancillary functions on the quadrant - just needs a bit of brain effort

With regard to your "friends" comments, if you are using servos for gauges then you do not need exact movements or indeed other control options

David
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on December 29, 2013, 06:07:05 AM
Attached is my TQ SIOC script file for all who may be interested.  If you have any questions let me know.

To address Jacob's questions.....

Obviously it is hard to troubleshoot from afar.  All I can say is that so far the OC card is running very stable for me.  Yes, if you do unplug the USB connection you will need to adjust the ID in the sioc.ini when you plug it back in.  However this is a very simple procedure (takes less than a minute) and once you are all connected it is not often that you will need to reconnect anyhow.  Precision is more than enough for a TQ application and of course use only quality pots.  Regarding lever movement I am using high torque spec DC motors (the small typical robotics type).  Since they are high torque their motion is relatively slow which helps with smoothness and also provides enough force leverage to move the lever mechanisms.

I am in the process of removing my old TQ and installing the new one which requires some reconfiguration of my physical setup.  I am working on that as we speak.  Once it is back together I will post a video.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Sudden81 on December 29, 2013, 10:39:43 AM
Words is one thing.

But can't any one show it on youtube?

How the tq move?

Hard to se OC on the tube!
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fordgt40 on December 29, 2013, 10:46:54 AM
If I knew how to post a video I would.
I am totally confident in my statement about the smoothness of the lever movement. Like Fred, I also use high torque very low speed motors with gearing so that it takes approx 5 secs to go from Idle to fire wall
Title: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Sudden81 on December 29, 2013, 12:25:41 PM
Do you have a Iphone and a register on youtube that is simpel! Best Jacob!
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sagrada737 on December 29, 2013, 02:29:06 PM
Hello Fred,

Thanks for posting the SIOC code.  It's probably Greek to most on the forum, but invaluable for those wanting to see a working set of code.  Much appreciated!

When you have time... Post a YouTube video of your motorized TQ working.  Thanks again - nice work!

Mike
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fordgt40 on December 30, 2013, 11:39:22 AM
Fred

Thanks for posting the code. It is always interesting to see how others tackle it  :)

David
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: blueskydriver on December 30, 2013, 12:29:53 PM
Thanks very much, Fred.

John
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Flying_Fox on January 03, 2014, 11:25:49 AM
Thank you very much Fred for your input.
I also work now on programming my motorized TQ, however I do the interfacing with Pokeys and Phidgets cards and programming in C#.

My testbed for autothrottle logic functions looks roughly like this:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi700.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fww8%2FOldElephant100%2F737NG%2FTQ%2Fautothrottle_test_zps93c78e0e.jpg&hash=2224aec440f50807cd5aa5a922fdc1935adc272d)

I model it programmatically.
In the middle - the TQ state (Not connected to the actual TQ at the moment - Pokeys box is red).
On the right in yellow box - autothrottle imitator - it is easier to play with it than work with actual FSX input. Can be switched to the actual FSX input at any moment. Current FSX values are also monitored in the screen.

Nick
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Masterploxis on January 06, 2014, 10:18:20 AM
Hello Guys,

i finally got my original TQ working in my pit. Big thanks goes out to Fred K. He helped me a lot and it is his SIOC script that i am using for the autothrottle and trim system (in a little modified version).

The question came up about the smoothness of the lever movement. I made a video showing the autothrottle working with the DC motors driven by SIOC.

Original 737 Throttle finally working in my Homecockpit.... (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PnZKlAVKZWc#ws)

If you are interested, here is also a video i made about my DC motor holders for the TQ.

How to make nice DC motor holders for a B737 TQ with a CNC machine (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZ_Pf_dkZ5A#)

Andy
www.masterploxis.de (http://www.masterploxis.de)
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: hexpope on January 07, 2014, 05:56:55 AM
Which type of aluminium did you use and how did you cost ? I really love the new CNC also. Is that a Kress Spindle on it ? Great job with the DC Motor brackets also.
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Masterploxis on January 07, 2014, 08:27:53 AM
Hi Pat,

the aluminium i used is Al-Mg 4,5. 200x200x8mm approx. 15 € for 2 pcs.

And yes - it is a Kress spindle. Totally sufficient for all jobs i have for my homecockpit as long as i go with aluminum.

Thanks

Andy
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: hexpope on January 07, 2014, 08:56:04 AM
Thanks for that, and that's pretty cheap too !
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Jan737 on January 07, 2014, 12:12:33 PM
Hi All,

Just a question, why are the levers not moving together, but more or less after each other?
Looks not very real to me.

Can that been changed?

Best regards

Jan Geurtsen
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Masterploxis on January 08, 2014, 12:24:37 AM
Jan,

the autothrottle system is a closed loop circuit which means that the SIOC permanently checks the actual position of the lever with a target value and activates the dc motor incase of a deviation.

So from Software side everything should be perfect.

The reason why the levers do not move synchronized at the same time lies within the mechanical setup of the system. The steel cable tension cannot be made the same by 100 percent and the slip clutch setting on the dc motors is also not 100% the same. Maybe also the cheap chinese dc motors show a slightly different acceleration graph when powered on.

All these factors contribute to very small timing misalignments for the DC motor activity resulting in slightly different lever movement.

With better aligned steel cable tension, better slip clutch adjustment and better motors, the problem could be minimized (at least that would be my starting point to improve the system).

Andy
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on January 08, 2014, 05:01:55 AM
Quote

Jan,

the autothrottle system is a closed loop circuit which means that the SIOC permanently checks the actual position of the lever with a target value and activates the dc motor incase of a deviation.

So from Software side everything should be perfect.

The reason why the levers do not move synchronized at the same time lies within the mechanical setup of the system. The steel cable tension cannot be made the same by 100 percent and the slip clutch setting on the dc motors is also not 100% the same. Maybe also the cheap chinese dc motors show a slightly different acceleration graph when powered on.

All these factors contribute to very small timing misalignments for the DC motor activity resulting in slightly different lever movement.

With better aligned steel cable tension, better slip clutch adjustment and better motors, the problem could be minimized (at least that would be my starting point to improve the system).

Andy


Hopefully by the weekend I will be finished with the major part of the construction modifcations I am making to my cockpit.  I will post a video of my TQ operation then when things are back together.

Fred K
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on January 12, 2014, 07:23:00 AM
Hi All -

These are some video links demonstrating the operation of my TQ.

Regarding the motorized motion of the thrust levers I did make a change in the SIOC script eliminating separate slow and fast speed zones. I am now just using a single speed (slow) across the full range of motion and a null (dead) zone. What I have found is that if the motorized motion of the levers is too fast it will overrun the null zone causing a back-and-forth "hunting" phenomenon. This can be eliminated by widening the null zone but that will be at the expense of synchronized movement for the two levers. So by keeping the lever speed slow you can optimized both paramters.  I am using a 15rpm rated high torque motor operating at the lowest possible speed.  A 10rpm or even lower speed would probably be even better, but the way it is currently operating meets my satisafaction so I'm not going to bother changing the motors.  As you can see from the video the constant slow speed is plenty fast enough.  The OC DCMotorsPlus card is continuing to work fine.

http://youtu.be/KPF-UHSOye0 (http://youtu.be/KPF-UHSOye0)


http://youtu.be/d6DtCHm1MMI (http://youtu.be/d6DtCHm1MMI)


Fred K
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fsaviator on January 12, 2014, 07:35:12 AM
Very nice Fred.  Thanks for sharing
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: hexpope on January 12, 2014, 07:51:53 AM
Great work Fred, you've done a fantastic job at converting the TQ.
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: matta757 on January 12, 2014, 08:42:47 AM
Fred,

Wow, that looks awesome. You have done a great job!

Matt
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Sudden81 on January 12, 2014, 10:31:40 AM
Quote from: FredK on January 12, 2014, 07:23:00 AM
Hi All -

These are some video links demonstrating the operation of my TQ.

Regarding the motorized motion of the thrust levers I did make a change in the SIOC script eliminating separate slow and fast speed zones. I am now just using a single speed (slow) across the full range of motion and a null (dead) zone. What I have found is that if the motorized motion of the levers is too fast it will overrun the null zone causing a back-and-forth "hunting" phenomenon. This can be eliminated by widening the null zone but that will be at the expense of synchronized movement for the two levers. So by keeping the lever speed slow you can optimized both paramters.  I am using a 15rpm rated high torque motor operating at the lowest possible speed.  A 10rpm or even lower speed would probably be even better, but the way it is currently operating meets my satisafaction so I'm not going to bother changing the motors.  As you can see from the video the constant slow speed is plenty fast enough.  The OC DCMotorsPlus card is continuing to work fine.

http://youtu.be/KPF-UHSOye0 (http://youtu.be/KPF-UHSOye0)


http://youtu.be/d6DtCHm1MMI (http://youtu.be/d6DtCHm1MMI)


Fred K


I have to ask.

Why do the handles not move smoother?

Why will they not follow each other?

Why do it seems that they can only move in one speed?

Hope I did not offend you with my little too "straight on" questions?

The reason I ask is that if you have put $ 4000 on a tq must move absolutely perfect if you build on it.

Wondering how it works in a real simulator?

Hmmm... just ide' WAM Arm Cable Drives (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sEzIpxbp-xI#)

Animatronic Character Basics - Cable-Control Tentacle Mechanisms - PREVIEW - Special FX Tutorial (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pi06u99UaOk#ws)

More ide's:

Super Duty Belt Drive Pan System (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e2zbYb057ts#ws)

Sincerely, Jacob!
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: fordgt40 on January 12, 2014, 11:52:07 AM
Jacob

If it is important to you to have precisely synchronised throttle levers then a simple amendment to the sioc script will achieve this. I coded a routine that defined the maximum "difference" between the current and required throttle positions for each lever. If the difference was within an "acceptable" range then I coded both levers to move to the same position at the same time. This solved the problem of latency in the code.

If I could find the video proving it then I would post it  :(
In any event if anyone wants my SIOC code with this routine built in, then let me know

David
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on January 12, 2014, 01:34:51 PM
Jacob -

To try to answer your questions and to provide some perspective of how things work......

To start with, the native operation of the lever motion in my TQ is perfectly smooth and can be synchronized perfectly.  What I mean by that is if the levers are operated independent of FSX via the SIOC test utility (by input of target program values) they move perfectly smooth across the complete range of motion.  You can also set speed to match precisely.  So that part is not the issue.

What the issues are.....(1) FSX itself and (2) the interfacing communication with FSX.

Regarding FSX.....Take a flight and pull up the TQ window in FSX.  What you will see is that the throttle movement is not smooth to begin with.  The throttle levers move in a kind of incremental stepwise fashion, albeit the levers always move in perfect synchronization (but I ask is that realistic?).  The SIOC code of course ultimately draws from what FSX is dictating so can it be any better?  For the most part my lever movement is generally even smoother than FSX particularly across longer ranges of motion, perhaps having to do with some smoothing by the avionics program (SimA in this case) but I cannot say for sure. 

There are also inherent communication lags in software communication with FSX that contribute to the syncing issue. I agree that synchronization is not perfect like in FSX, and could in fact be better.  Synchronization is more of an issue across long ranges of motion...for example on a flight level descent retard.  But you can judge for yourself in the videos.

I cannot speak as an authority regarding how the real 737 operates.  However based on cockpit videos I have viewed the throttle levers appear to move perfectly smooth but not necessarily in perfect synchronization with one another.  I would guess this has to do with the attitude and yaw configuration of the aircraft at the particular moment, but I'd be interested in knowing what the experienced pilots here have to say about that.  So perhaps one can argue that perfect synchronization is not necessarily a priority goal.  FSX does not take that into account, but is it different in X-Plane which is modeled differently from what I understand? But all that gets us off on a different tangent here....off topic.

From videos I have seen of commercially offered motorized TQs on the market the smoothness issue appears to be the nature of the beast.  You can easily Google those examples.  Perhaps others with commercially purchased TQs can comment though.

So Jacob, to be sure I am not here to sell you a $4000 TQ, and I realize that is a significant investment that one has to consider carefully.  My only purpose is to do this project for my own enjoyment with the satisfaction in having accomplished something. This hobby has many nuances...what is important to some may not be to others etc.  It is what rings your bell.  But what is the alternative here?  Is a non-motorized TQ really a better option I ask?

David -

I did play with some code to try to better sync the levers just as you have suggested but encountered problems with "hunting" given the more complicated script.  Would appreciate if you could send me that part of your code....thanks very much.

Fred K

Title: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: archen on January 12, 2014, 01:51:37 PM
On my last jumpseat ride in a fairly new 738 the levers did sync 100%. I noticed PF always put his hand on the levers just before a decent or climb was initiated (still on AT). He just had his hand there and did not do anything to the levers. I asked why and they told me there had been an accident when AT changed thrust mode and retarded the levers but not synchronized. Ended up in a roll and crash. So now they must always, by putting there hand on the levers when AT changes power to confirm they not get seperated.

So they CAN differ but it's not usual and it's definitely not good when it happens in the real plane. In the sim I guess it's more important in the visual way that it looks good when they synchronize.

Btw: I like the smoothness you have achieved when they are moving. If you can get them to sync and don't make stops on the way to the target position also it would be fantastic.

I have a 733 TQ myself and looking into how to motorize it the best way. SIOC is interesting but I'm waiting to see what prosim comes up with.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk (http://tapatalk.com/m?id=1)
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sobsidian on February 09, 2014, 09:31:56 PM
First, I have to thank all of you for all this wonderful information.

I will most likely be getting a real 737-500 TQ in the next week. My fabircation skills are horrible, so as much as I can find pre-fab'd the better. I am decent with electronics and excellent programmer. So I may even offer to help trade services if neccesary to get some of those pre-fabircated parts.

Anyway, I have a few questions that I have not found yet:

* Fred, your part list was great, however the one piece I did not see you give a part number for was the slip clutch. Could you please provide the model for that?

* I have read 2 or 3 other detailed TQ builds and none of them have mentioned the reverse thrust potentiometer or how the motor is tied for the trim wheel. Are these extra things that need to be added as well?

Thanks in advance!
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on February 10, 2014, 05:31:52 AM
QuoteFirst, I have to thank all of you for all this wonderful information.

I will most likely be getting a real 737-500 TQ in the next week. My fabircation skills are horrible, so as much as I can find pre-fab'd the better. I am decent with electronics and excellent programmer. So I may even offer to help trade services if neccesary to get some of those pre-fabircated parts.

Anyway, I have a few questions that I have not found yet:

* Fred, your part list was great, however the one piece I did not see you give a part number for was the slip clutch. Could you please provide the model for that?

* I have read 2 or 3 other detailed TQ builds and none of them have mentioned the reverse thrust potentiometer or how the motor is tied for the trim wheel. Are these extra things that need to be added as well?

Thanks in advance!

I purchased the slip clutches from Sterling Instrument (www.sdp-si.com (http://www.sdp-si.com))......Part # S98CA6MMOC320838.  They are made by Polyclutch I believe (they look identical).

A single potentiometer is used for both forward and reverse thrust for each lever. That is, a portion of the pot travel is assigned for reverse deployment, a portion for forward travel.  The reverse thrusters on the TQ conveniently operate that way.  FSUIPC handles reverse thrust as negative input values so the SIOC script is written to account for all that.

See my pictures earlier in this thread that show the motor mounting to drive the trim wheels.
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sobsidian on February 10, 2014, 09:09:35 AM
Thanks Fred!

I was watching Scott's in-depth videos and got a much better idea of what I was looking for, and your comments are invaluable.

A few more quick questions, I was looking to order those string pots online and found one or two places that I could conveniently order. Most others looked like I had to call and place an order. And are they really around US $100-$150/ea?

Any advice on metal working tools I might need. My tools are all wood tools at the moment. I noticed a lot of metal work. Sorry if this sounds silly, but could I purchase some metal cutting saw blades and use those same tools? And no, I won't hold you liable  ;)

I'm thinking about having to cut out metal spacers for pulleys, or fabricating my own metal brackets. What type of medal did you use and how did you cut it for the most part? On the brackets, did you have to do any welding?

Again, I appreciate all your help! This last bit of info should be plenty to get me started.
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on February 11, 2014, 05:04:49 AM
Quote

Thanks Fred!

I was watching Scott's in-depth videos and got a much better idea of what I was looking for, and your comments are invaluable.

A few more quick questions, I was looking to order those string pots online and found one or two places that I could conveniently order. Most others looked like I had to call and place an order. And are they really around US $100-$150/ea?

Any advice on metal working tools I might need. My tools are all wood tools at the moment. I noticed a lot of metal work. Sorry if this sounds silly, but could I purchase some metal cutting saw blades and use those same tools? And no, I won't hold you liable 

I'm thinking about having to cut out metal spacers for pulleys, or fabricating my own metal brackets. What type of medal did you use and how did you cut it for the most part? On the brackets, did you have to do any welding?

Again, I appreciate all your help! This last bit of info should be plenty to get me started.




Yes, the string pots are expensive....I paid about $150 each.  They are quality products though and work very well.

Regarding the metal work.......You certainly do not need to get involved with welding anything unless you are capable and experienced doing so of course. All of my fabrication is either working with wood or aluminum which is easy to cut or drill.  Aluminum can be cut with an inexpensive reciprocating jig saw....I also use a metal cutting blade on my power mitre saw for straight cuts. For the pulley assembly I fashioned I used aluminum sheet metal that I cut and then assembled together using pop rivets with a cheap hand tool...very easy to do if you have not tried that yet.  Most everything else was drilled and screwed together.  The actual metal body of the TQ is made from a soft metal so it is easy to drill and cutout openings where required.  In my case the TQ came with the bulky understructure that sits under the NAV pedestal.  I trim all that off for my needs using a reciprocating Sawz-All kind of saw.  Those can even be rented at Home Depot if necessary.  Bottom-line....all you need is a little ingenuity....no special tools required!

I hope that helps.

Fred K
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sobsidian on June 05, 2014, 04:52:22 PM
Quote from: FredK on December 28, 2013, 05:56:46 AM
Just wanted to finish the story on this.......

I finally found the time to complete the SIOC script for my TQ conversion project.  The TQ is fully motorized including spd break lever actuation (either via "armed" on landing or via application of reverse thrust on an RTO or after landing).  I am very pleased with the results.  Throttle lever motion is much improved over my old servo-operated TQ. If anyone is interested in the script let me know....it is written specifically for SimA but can be modified otherwise of course.

The Open Cockpits "DCMotorsPlus" interface has operated flawlessly to this point.  I am using caps across the pot connectors to ensure elimination of any noise interference as suggested in the instruction manual.

FredK

Hey Fred,

I FINALLY got my 737 TQ after 4 months of waiting. I am about 85% complete, just bench testing everything now. I would love to get a copy of your script that you configured. My build is almost entirely based on your parts and design...so THANK YOU! Saved me a lot of time to get this going. I've spent about 2 weeks off and on and can't believe how fast its going.

Also, I'm running into a weird scenerio where, when I activate the Spoiler Servo, the DC card shuts off. I have to reload the SIOC program to get the card back. It appears to be a power draw issue. If I test with the trim servo, I don't have any issues. I've also done the recommended caps across the POT terminals, and shorting the GND from the unused analog inputs to the GND terminal on the power block. Not sure how to solve the issue for the spoiler servo. Any advice would be helpful.

Also, for everyone else, I will be posting pictures and videos of my build once I get it complete. Along with a MOSTLY complete parts list (I know Fred did a great job of getting the big parts listed, but there were a lot of small things that I ended up having to re-order).
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on June 05, 2014, 06:55:52 PM
Hi Shawn

I'm glad most everything is working out.  I have not experienced the servo problem so I really do not know what to say about that.  Does the problem happen with the servo connected to the board without any load on it?  That is, with the  spoiler arm disconnected.  Also, is there any binding in the motion travel of the spoiler arm?  It took a fair amount of trial and error to get the pot linkage and servo linkage for the spoiler arm not to fight each other.  I did finally work all that out to assure there was no binding and to have the least amount of resistance anywhere in the travel.  In fact there is very little force required to move the lever.  I am away from home right now....will post my latest script when I get back.  An earlier script is posted earlier in this thread.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sobsidian on June 06, 2014, 04:10:52 PM
The problem does not happen while the servo is not commanded to a position. So just plugged into the board, no issue. Its once I send the command to travel that it will activate for less than a second, then the board drops signal. There was a bit of binding I think on the metal slide plate that contacts the spoiler lever. I added a dab of grease and is much smoother. However it appears that has not fixed the problem. I added a spacer to prevent the spoiler arm from contacting the metal slide plateand it doesn't make a difference either. I may also not be sending the proper commands to the servo motor. I'm testing this sending values between 1-800 through the IOCP console to simulate movement. Sometimes the servo will work more than a second, sometimes not. It always will always pull the spoiler back to the down position, but trying to motion it forward is usually when it disconnects right away. But its sporadatic. Sometimes it will move for longer periods of time, sometimes instant off (anywhere from .5 sec to 1.5 sec before it quits). So strange.

I should also point out that I'm using an external 5V supply from a computer power supply. Thats the only load on it besides the 12V supply for the motors. I've tried play with the jumpers to switch the power supply and doesn't make a difference either.

And I did find the copy of your older script. That should be a good starting point for me. Thanks! I'm going to be converting it to prosim.
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on June 06, 2014, 05:12:27 PM
Shawn

Could it be a bad servo?  Does the same thing happen if you connect the servo lead to a different port, that is, the known good one for the trim servo?  Does the same thing happen if you disconnect the spoiler lever?  I'm just trying to think of all the obvious things.  I would also suggest to contact open cockpits to see what they say....usually they are pretty good responding about technical issues like this.

Fred
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sobsidian on June 06, 2014, 09:08:14 PM
It could be a bad servo. I have another OC servo card I can test it with. I will try that and also contact OC.

I did try completely removing the arm from the servo and tried changing the port, no go. I'm thinking maybe adding a capacitor might help but not sure how to wire that up since I believe the servo only gets power when commanded to a position, so it would constantly discharge between servo commands. It seems to me like the power draw is more than the card can handle. I think the servo itself works because sometimes it does work. I wish I had another way to test the servo besides the OC cards. It's just so where because it's the same servo you are using. Anyway, I'll reach out to them and see what they suggest.
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: sobsidian on June 25, 2014, 05:25:44 PM
Okay...so I'm now on my THIRD! HS-815BB servo (I fried the last two)  :huh:. This time I bought a separate Servo tester which verifies the servo is in perfectly working condition before I hooked up anything. I still have not been able to connect to servo to the DC Motor board, and I've tried two different boards. So...I found a decent work around. The workaround was to wire the servo directly to a standard OC USB servo card. Now all is right in the world!

However, I'm still having issues with my outputs. OC has yet to respond to my repeated emails for support (10 days so far). But I'm unable to figure out how to properly wire the outputs for 12V for the parking brake light (and eventually a solenoid/relay for the parking brake). I fried the IC chip for the outputs on the first board and have been waiting for OC to respond on how to properly wire for 12V on the outputs before I try out the new board. Any help would be appreciated. Their manual makes it sound like GND and Postive are reversed (which would make sense because I cannot get more than 0.61V when I connect it the same way as their other output cards).

I've also started a new thread so as not to hijack this one any longer, which includes some videos of what I've accomplished so far. Its 90%. Here is the new thread: http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=4350.0 (http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=4350.0)
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on June 26, 2014, 06:55:42 PM
Shawn -

That is understandably frustrating about your OC card issues particularly if you have not received a response from OC.

I assume your basic jumper and power connections are what they should be, but just to be sure:

Jumper positions:

5V power: Set jumper to Pos2/JP7 (Internal 5V power)
Power output: Set jumper to Pos3/+V Mot

12V power connection:

12V power supply leads to "+V Motors" (for  + lead) and to "GND" (for - lead)

Also:

I have my parking brake light wired directly to a 12V source bypassing the OC board.  There are dual micro switches for the PB lever - one is connected to the switch input on the OC board, the other operates the PB lamp (simple light switch on/off).  Therefore there is no output command for PB lamp per se.  My strategy was to minimize as much current flow through the board as possible although I really do not think that should matter.

There continues to be no issues for me with the OC board and I have been doing a fair amount of flying of late.

FredK
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: carlostxnl on July 04, 2014, 07:49:54 AM
hi Fred
are you using prosim? I ordered a TQ from" cockpit for you " I havent recieved yet but i think shouold be here pretty soon
I,m not good in SIOC, and  a lot of people that ordered the TQ is having problems with the programing
do you think your script will work with this TQ. this TQ also has the motorized parking break
do you have to program part in fsuipc?

GREAT  JOB
Thanks for sharing
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on July 04, 2014, 02:45:25 PM
Hi Carlos -

I am using SimA.

The basic program logic in my TQ script could work but you would need to reassign all the inputs and outputs of course.

I do not have my TQ set up for a motorized parking brake release so my script does not include that aspect.

FredK
Title: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: carlostxnl on July 04, 2014, 03:05:19 PM
Thanks Fred
I will talk to the guys and see
I keep you posted


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Title: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: carlostxnl on July 27, 2014, 03:50:47 AM
Hi Fred
I assuming that the dc motors are 12v. How many amps ?
I ordered a TQ from cockpit-for-you but I haven't received an answer to my question regarding the amperage uds by the dc motors. I want to use the correct power supply
Thanks
Regards
Carlos
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Flying_Fox on July 27, 2014, 05:41:04 AM
Quote from: carlostxnl on July 27, 2014, 03:50:47 AM
Hi Fred
I assuming that the dc motors are 12v. How many amps ?
I ordered a TQ from cockpit-for-you but I haven't received an answer to my question regarding the amperage uds by the dc motors. I want to use the correct power supply
Thanks
Regards
Carlos

Hi Carlos,

You really don't need to consider more than 1 amp for DC motor.

My whole TQ eats no more than 25 watts at peak when trim and levers are moving. Backlighting included. I have standard 200 watt computer PSU for it, feeding 12v and 5v, which by itself eats ~6 watt in idle mode. So any computer PSU will do - and there will be plenty of power left for other needs.

For Trim motor I just use the 25v power brick from the old electric drill. It's 1A only but that's more than enough. When trim motor works - it eats only 6 watts.
Title: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: carlostxnl on July 27, 2014, 05:53:13 AM
Thanks for the info
I hope i an make it work
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: tkellogg on November 13, 2019, 08:31:27 AM
Fred,

First, let me tell you how impressed I am with the motorization of your 737 throttle quadrant. Second I want to thank you for sharing your expertise and photos of your hard work. If not for your hard work and sharing, along with numerous others, I would never have been able to build my sim. I have a few questions that I have not been able to answer in reviewing this post. The sprocket you used in the drive assembly is attached to the assembly but I cannot tell how. It almost appears as if it's sandwiched between the components of the slip clutch. Would you mind telling me how it's attached and what if any additional components are used to attach the sprocket? It also appears as if there is a shaft collar between the pillow block and the slip clutch. Is that the case? Also do you know how long the shaft is that is used to connect all of the components together? And lastly, based one the information in your post, the sprocket is made out of acetal. Did you use a metal or plastic chain? Again thanks for all of your hard work. Look forward to hearing from you.

Tom Kellogg
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on November 13, 2019, 09:50:02 AM
Hi Tom

The sprocket gear is made out of a plastic.  It is fixed to the plates of the slip clutch with pins that come with the slip clutch assembly.  I choose the plastic sprocket since it was simply easier to drill accurate holes in the plastic as required to accept the pins. There is then a metal hub spacer that also sandwiches the sprocket gear flush with the gear sprocket.  It is fixed to the shaft with a set screw.

I do not remember exactly, but the shaft size diameter varied slightly between the assembly components. So I used a shaft collar to make it all work by building up the narrower diameter with some metal tape.  Sorry, but it is difficult for me to get an accurate measurement of the shaft components since it is all buried deeply within the center pedestal assembly, difficult to get to. I am not motivated to take it all apart.

My TQ has been operating flawlessly for 7 years now.  The only modification I have made was to replace the the lever motors with slower 5 rpm units about 3 yr ago.  I found slower movement minimized "hunting" and synced better with the standard motion sweep time for the real TQ.

There is no wear issue for the plastic sprocket gear since there really is not a lot of strain involved.  The chain drive is metal. So plastic has withstood the test of time....but metal would be better of course IF you are confident that you can get the pin holes drilled correctly.

You may want to check with Mike Sherick.  Mike took the basics of my design a few steps beyond converting his TQ.  He has a home machine shop to make custom parts and brackets etc.  He is using my SIOC code straight out.

Fred K
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: tkellogg on November 13, 2019, 10:49:58 AM
Thank you very much
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: tkellogg on October 09, 2020, 11:33:19 AM
Fred I see in your post where you attached the SIOC program for your throttle quadrant. I am unable to figure out how to download the file. I click on the paper clip but don't get a response. Am I doing something wrong? Perhaps you could just email me the SIOC program to my email at kkellogg@bellsouth.net Thanks.
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: FredK on October 10, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: tkellogg on October 09, 2020, 11:33:19 AMFred I see in your post where you attached the SIOC program for your throttle quadrant. I am unable to figure out how to download the file. I click on the paper clip but don't get a response. Am I doing something wrong? Perhaps you could just email me the SIOC program to my email at kkellogg@bellsouth.net Thanks.

Sent!
Title: Re: B737 Throttle Quadrant conversion
Post by: Masterploxis on January 05, 2021, 05:27:37 AM
Quote from: FredK on October 10, 2020, 04:10:36 PM
Quote from: tkellogg on October 09, 2020, 11:33:19 AMFred I see in your post where you attached the SIOC program for your throttle quadrant. I am unable to figure out how to download the file. I click on the paper clip but don't get a response. Am I doing something wrong? Perhaps you could just email me the SIOC program to my email at kkellogg@bellsouth.net Thanks.

Sent!

Hi Fred,

It has been a while since we had been in contact about the sioc for the tq... Can you sent your current sioc file again to me?

We have moved into a bigger house and I did reassemble the simulator, the motorized Tq anyhow is still not working properly and I would like to start again with a clean script from you.. Adress is
Masterploxis@web.de

Your support is highly appreciated

Cheers
Andy