Question for ALL Members

[Trevor Hale]

Hi Guys,

Seems that many people are still unaware of this site.  As just recently posted in another thread, someone stumbled across us by accident.  I was wondering if there was any way that all of us could put our heads together to determine how exactly we as a group could better expose ourselves to other talented builders.

Not to drag in every Tom, Dork or Harry but other Talented serious builders..

Trev

[ivar hestnes]

How about a category for females pictures? Could attract some attention

ohhhhhhhhh, sorry, that might attract Tom, Dork and Harry for sure (and maybe some serious builders also  ).

[Trevor Hale]

LMFAO..  Hilarious...  Yup... Ivar that would about do it

[shaneb]

Hi Trevor,

I think it may depend on what members you are looking for . . . as you stated not every Tom, Dork and Harry are desirable.  Seems this site is geared toward the more serious builder and I think that the serious builders will find this site and most likely by accident because they are the ones searching the Internet for every available piece of information for their build. They take the time to do research, read a lot of posts, learn some things on their own . . not asking for every little detail be given to them.

I have watched your site from the sidelines as I am building a Lear 45, and I watch with great interest in all of the techniques that each of you utilize in your builds and I like to think that I am one of the "serious builders" with my project.  I have watched people come and go from the site that I hang out at for Lear builders. . most of them that left probably were not that serious about the project or maybe it was an overwhelming project and they thought they could not do it, some just frankly did not fit in, but what you end up with is a smaller but great group of guys (we don't have any gals yet) that get along and help one another out.

Of course let me add in a disclaimer here, Scott (XOrion) is not one of those that didn't fit in, Scott decided on a different build and made his way to your site and still drops in and says hello to us from time to time, about the way I do here at your site.  Scott's contributions to my build are greatly appreciated!   

Back to the subject, I think that maybe bigger is not always better . . I would rather be at a site where all the members are friends, no fussing, no complaining.  A well rounded group of (50) people that enjoy sharing thoughts, ideas, and progress would be better than a group of (500) that did not get along and you were always worried about one of them taking offense to one of your posts.  Of course there is nothing wrong with trying to get the word out that there is a site for the serious builder, just that it might attract a few that you have to tolerate for a while until they leave.

I think that is one of the great things about your site . . I don't see those problems happening and I think in time you will have more serious builders migrate your way as they get tired of the "politics, and ignorance" found in other places. I know that I am not one of your "full time" members but this is why I enjoy jumping over to your site and reading the posts . .  you have good friendships that have developed here, and you all have fun with your builds and enjoy seeing the progress of your members.

Well hope you don't mind a "part timer" throwing in his 2 cents worth . . or maybe in this case my 2 dollars worth, I kinda got long winded!   

[Trevor Hale]

Hell No Shane..  You make the same point that I have been pushing since Day one!  You are 100% right.  we do not want anyone here that asks the `How do I build this complete sim..  yadda yadda yadda and expects one of us to hold their hands..  Thats not going to happen.

Perhaps the way I worded this was wrong..  Jack (as we all know) Makes the same point you do.  All of us would rather have 50 dedicated fun guys here then 5000+ kiddies or people just flying through the night...

I couldn`t agree with you more..  `Perhaps What I meant was..  Is there a location where the [Serious Builders] hang out, where we could let them know the resource exists.

{sorry my computer messed up}

Anyway, I appreciate your input, as everyone here knows..  I like to start topics that create a good "discussion" even if it means a bit of a debate.  I really respect everyone's opinion, and like many topics I have started.. they always seem to light a fire in someone, and this time it was you.  The passion you demonstrate in this hobby is great, and I like to see some of that passion surface from builders in our community.

Thanks for that..

Anyone else have an opinion?

[Boeing Skunk Works]

Trevor, I think this is the site where the serious builders hang out. At least in a generalized way. There are no specialities here like there may be at the Lear site or at a military builders site.

I have to echo what has already been said; don't want the hand-holders who can't be bothered to do any research or desktoppers here asking about how to repaint an aircraft or is Saitek better than CH. They're both crap BTW compared to what we build here.

Quality, not quantity is what we should strive for. Those that are serious about the hobby will find us. We don't need to find them.

[jackpilot]

Yep!

[shaneb]

 

I agree, I was sitting here thinking and really there is no other site as you say in a generalized way where a serious builder hangs out. . this site has GA to airliners and bizjets in between represented in the posts and gallery and looking at the quality of the builds I would say from some serious builders and that is the difference . . other sites may represent GA to airliners but are they hard core flightdeck builders? That is why this site is one of my two hangouts   . . I find the same hardcore enthusiasm here as I do at the Lear site, only difference is we are as you say specialized to the Lear and that limits us as to who comes to our site.

I think the serious builder is a small, unique group in the flightsim community . . just a bunch of guys and gals that want to build a flightdeck as close to the real thing as possible and as such we have elected to go a route that requires a lot more ingenuity . . . your just not going to order a set of rudder pedals, some generic gauges and a cheap yoke and call it a 737  . . . no,no,no it's going to be correct right down to the paint code!

. . . and we have the same attitude at the Lear site . . those that are serious about the hobby will find us.

[Trevor Hale]

Exactly..  In addition to that, My favorite part about this site is the "Diaries" of each piece of the project materializes in front of our eyes.  Jack's throttle..  Scott's Yoke build, Gene's 109, and the Spitfire Project, and Mike and Ivar's Woodworking skills. (My apologies to those other hard core builders I didn't mention) These stories provide motivation for me to work harder on my project and I am sure they do the same for each of us.

Cheers for that, and here is to the project updates.

Trev

[Bob Reed]

Well I think I opened this kettle of fish.  Trevor and I talk on a daily basis and I just said to him this morning… See here is another guy who came here and did not know we were here… He stumbled on us.It is that which makes me wonder how many people that would like to be here that are not?  No, there is a crowed we do not wish to have here and I think we are capable of keeping them away. I look at each post and I think man that was nice.. I spend a lot of time here during the day and I watch…. I have not done much with my sim in a long time but I have done something that is going to pretty much empty my basement and allow me to re build my sim the way I want to and I than will be able to add my little diary here. The quality of the builders we have here is matched by none and I take great pride in what has been done by this group to build this site in a short time!  As proof of what we think of this site this question was brought to you, the user and you were not told this Is what was going to happen! This is a non commercial site and Trevor and I intend to keep it that way!

[XOrionFE]

Hey all.    I would like to echo something in that I think that this is the definitive site for serious builders now.    I have been all through most of the other sites over the past two years and I came over to this forum because I knew from my research and reading just who the most serious builders were and who I wanted to emulate or look to for experience as I build my own cockpit.   You guys all know who you are!  I also really appreciate that some of my work has been recognized by many of the members here and that I can in some way make a contribution to the pool of knowledge and experience that keeps growing.    I am on this site almost daily as I just cant get enough of seeing what others are up to and the innovative ideas that keep perculating here each week.    I do also frequent Hangar45 because I have made many friendships there as well and really enjoy watching the Learjet 45 rise out of nothing.      Thank you Trevor and Bob and everyone else for making this site what it is and as far as driving others here.....I would just suggest for everyone to mention cockpitbuilders.com as a resource when on any other forum where serious building discussions are taking place as I do.   

Best regards,
Scott

[ian@737ng.co.uk]

hello chaps.......
reading thru this thread, i am again reminded of the immense talent that exists here.    i have to agree with just about everything that has been said.
but to me, the more sophisticated the level of our collective builds are, the less people who attain that level.     so, my input is i have to agree with Shane re: the 50 vs 500 and Mike made a good point in Quality vs Quantity.  i also salute Bob & Trev for their dedication.
it appears to me that many serious builders will find this site (as a lot already have) and as Scott is doing, i am also talking to other builders about it.
rome was not built in a day and i think although there are other sites out there, this one is fun, educational and entertains me and i am happy to be a member.
so i guess, talk to people and invite them to come take a look.   i'll put up a few more links on my website as well.
have a great day chaps.....

ian

[when acting as a wave]

Everything I wanted to say has already been said, but I'm going to add my waffling anyway 

I think a slow-building foundation of genuinely enthusiastic and dedicated parties (as is happening here) is far preferable to an influx of casuals who'd more than likely clutter the site and cause despondence amongst the more hardcore members who'd rather not waste time and energy wading through unwanted/unnecessary threads and posts.

It's a difficult thing to do though, to target only the builders you want without attracting those you don't, although I'm sure that with the forum now well-established, the very content therein is indicative of the level of builds happening around here.

As an aside, we've got a CockpitBuilders link on our website, which I'd like to think generates interest from serious builders; and it's the only forum mentioned there because it's the only one we use!

Dean.

[Trevor Hale]

Damn I love a good chinwag..  Agreed..  and of course Ian, we only accept Beer Drinkers here.. LOL (And Scotch for the Jackpilot's in us) LOL

Just kidding..  You guys all rock.

Trev

[jackpilot]

  and of course Ian, we only accept Beer Drinkers here.. LOL (And Scotch for the Jackpilot's in us) LOL

Hey ! I'm not the only one...just look east, over the Pond, northern latitude..Humm!

[DarrylH]

How to sort the wheat from the chaff?

A bit of a slippery slope IMHO. I know what you are saying but how do you sort them before they are members and posting. Reputation is one way I guess. If "silly" enquiries are referred politely to other sites that may help in discouraging other silly questions. BUT, who here has not asked at least one stupid/obvious question in their careers? 

I have limited time on my hands and I like to spend that building, not trawling through endless fora in an attempt to avoid asking a question that has been answered a few times but perhaps ages ago. Am I (and I think after an F-16 and a Spitfire I am a somewhat serious builder ) to be allowed to ask a question that a newbie would be berated for? Or am I to be told to get packing because I asked it?

Elite builders who are not elitist is really the ideal for your stated goal. A tricky balance.
Do we really want to scare away people who may become serious builders?

Now don't think I am criticising the idea...I have ditched one or two sites in my time because they have become clogged with morons. When people studying WW1 aviation start to regularly refer to "kills" or "fighters", it is time to move on. ...but one man's meat is another's poison.


Perhaps the easiest way to avoid a large proportion of silly questions is to have a "START HERE" sticky post or section which discusses ALL of the basics from "What tools should I get?" to "Which card interfaces that?"  Surely between those who have years of experience we can come up with a comprehensive page. Then newcommers could be referred to that page and those who are not serious will be "daunted" away. Those who are will get some answers and make a start without huge involvement from the "old sweats".


The last thing I want to see is a post like "yeah, um, how do U link yr 'puter to a joystick?" or the saitek/ch post mentioned above. So sure, shoot for high quality, serious builders of voting/drinking age but careful how you treat the rest.

Don't mind me too much...I just enjoy listening to myself type.....



Darryl


And, oh, by the way, can I respectfully request that Guinness and Irish Whiskey are added to the drinks cart???

 

[mpl330]

As someone who has recently been asking some rather silly questions recently as I go through the process of a complete rebuild of my interfaces it has been gratifying to know that there are some expert builders here who can assist.
Being a member here and seeing the outstanding work of others gives me something to aim for, even if at the moment things do not quite turn out to the same level as I see elsewhere...

I am 'serious' in building my pit but do not have the skill levels in woodworking, electronics etc. (it does take time and practice) of many of the other members so are you thinking of making the site one where you must have a certain level of skill before you can become a member?

Cheers
Mike

[bussgarfield]

I have just read this thread all the way through and I was begining to think that perhaps I was not wanted here. That was until I read the posts from Darryl and Mike.
Now I don't know at what stage you become a serious builder but I do know that we all have to start some where which is what I am doing at the moment.
I have spent many years flying the sim but wanted something different.
I have embarked on the 737 pit and I do want it to be as near to scale as I can. I have some skills in the woodwork side and lack others in electronics.
I look up to the 'serious builder' and from time to time will ask questions if I don't understand something, which I did earlier today.
I have researched the topic and find Ian Sissons site most valuable but I do not want to just copy his project, I would like to put my own stamp on it. (Don't mean to be disrespectful Ian, you are a great guy and I know you encourage us newbies).

So please guys, don't become the 'elitebuilders'.com. The site is 'Cockpitbuilders'.com.

I think the thread started of with wanting a discussion so I have added my penny worth.
It is a great site as it is and I feel that those that wish to join should be encouraged. If the subjects discussed are a little bit away from their goal then they will do the right thing and decide to go else where.

Question though. What happens if you find there are 500 serious builders wanting become members. Will you turn them away and keep it to fifty.

Cheers Guys.
Gary 

[jackpilot]

Hi Guys
We now have close to 350 members, are happy with fact, and want more (as Trevor said at the very beginning of this thread).
As Gary said, this is Cockpitbuilders.com and the gates are wide open.
The pool of knowledge we have now under this roof has only one justification: to be shared and enjoyed. 
Individually, we are competent in one or two fields, but collectively we can master them all.
There are no Master builders here, handy at everything and certainly no Elite.
Have a great one.
Jack

[Maurice]

Been reading this thread from the sidelines and I too felt uncomfortable with the general tone which almost seemed to imply that this site was only for elite and/or very serious builders. I think that should be corrected to say that this site is for simmers interested in more than a simple desktop setup (not that there is anything wrong with desktop simming  ,  and for simmers who are not looking for step by step instructions without any effort on their part.

I think Trev did hit the nail on the head when he said "we do not want anyone here that asks "How do I build this complete sim...". We do expect members to be a bit more serious than that and do some research before asking an impossible question like how to start or build a full scale space shuttle, because to most of us, this is what it felt like at the beginning.

So, how do you build a space shuttle??? 

Maurice

[jackpilot]

this site is for simmers interested in more than a simple desktop setup (not that there is anything wrong with desktop simming  ,  and for simmers who are not looking for step by step instructions without any effort on their part.

Agreed 100%

how to start or build a full scale space shuttle, because to most of us, this is what it felt like at the beginning.
Maurice

And still does!!  Sometimes 

[shaneb]

I think that has been the main point with most of the posts . . . don't come here expecting anyone to hold your hand from beginning to end.  When I first started into building I read several posts that "hinted" that the person needed to do some research prior to taking the big leap into cockpit building, and I think this is what most are talking about here. The research portion is a big part of your build, while doing the research you are learning how a particular control or system operates. You have to learn about the flightdeck you are wanting to build . . you can't build a highly detailed and accurate flightdeck overnight and I think sometimes that is what people think when they first get started in the hobby.

With that said, yeah you are going to ask silly questions. We all started somewhere and I think that if new members read these posts hopefully they will get the idea that to achieve the level of detail of the flightdecks here takes a lot of dedication, and if you want to achieve that goal it is not going to happen in a couple days, usually it takes many years.

Going back to the main point . . do the research then ask questions.  I don't think anyone here is trying to keep other builders away.  We all know that there are the builders out there that fly in one evening, all excited because they are going to build a 737 in a weekend, ask a bunch of questions that the answers are readily available by doing an Internet search . . . then they are gone. I think that is the builder we are talking about. 

You have to help yourself out some,  When I first started I was worried that I would not be able to figure out how to use FSUIPC . . I could have asked a bunch of questions and still not had a good grasp of how it worked . . I bought it , read the manual , played around with it . . now I feel I have a fair amount of knowledge of what it can do, and when I do need to ask a question about FSUIPC I can do it intelligently because I am familiar with the program and this makes it easier for the person helping me when explaining what to do to fix the issue.

Hopefully the posts here will give some insight to new members of what the site is about . . not to run anyone off but to encourage them to learn by reading and trying new things . .then when they get stuck and need some help..ask a question. With a little knowledge of what they are trying to do they can do a much better job of explaining the problem so someone can help them. We all have seen the questions that even seasoned builders could not understand.

I would not want to run anyone off nor discourage them . . I do want to encourage them as stated to become comfortable with the idea of research, experimenting with programs such as FSUIPC or whatever other interface or hardware they choose . . this will only allow them to get more enjoyment out of the hobby and will show they are serious about their build and I think that is what most members here are looking for . . help yourself and we will help you too.

[Bob Reed]

Well said Shane. Yes we do not want to run a real but new builder off... There is a difference between someone who is new and a fly byer....I have come to be able to tell the difference 9 times out of 10 just from the question asked.... This tread alone might be able to help sort some of them for us. After reading this thread if they ask a question there is a good chance they are at least serious enough to venture in!! Yes we all where new to this at one time and we need to not forget that!

[ivar hestnes]

  and of course Ian, we only accept Beer Drinkers here.. LOL (And Scotch for the Jackpilot's in us) LOL

Hey ! I'm not the only one...just look east, over the Pond, northern latitude..Humm!

 

[ivar hestnes]

I think there is a few things that describes a serious builder over a wannabe.

A serious builder does what it takes to build his own aircraft dream. He has a unique patience and can visualize his dream in his mind at all times. He listen to what others say, but makes the decisions by himself. He never forget what his target/goal is. He is willing to learn new things to help the project progress. He spends serious amounts of time searching for the strangest keywords in search for gold. He understands that it is the time spent that counts for achieving the dream. Detail is better than quantity. (and he/she is probably divorced or will be  ).

A wannabee is easy to discover. They pop out with this: Heyyyy, I am new here, I am going to build a complete 737 for a 1000 euro, can you help please? Where can I find a complete set of drawings? How much for a CDU did you say? 500 bucks? you are kidding???

And he is gone


It is not the aircraft type that describes a serious builder. But the time spent to achieve his goals.