So who needs one of these projectors, well pretty much anyone who is building a 3 projector setup for their sim needs one.
Anyone who has been flying for sometime using 3 nice monitors and a triplehead, and has changed over to a 3 projector setup to bring it up to the image size we need for a full size cockpit,will tell you of the initial disappointment that they saw when they first looked at the projected image. OMG look at those pixels,ouch. Now theres no doubt that the immersion factor is much higher,but the image factor,leaves some things to be desired.
I believe that there is a much larger gaming community out there then many people think, im not just talking flight simmers,i have been to several other sites and have seen guys building big curved screen,3 projector setups for all sorts of different gaming applications.
I would like to start campaigning the big projector companys to make one of these projectors,but its going to take a whole lot of people to do it. But if we find the right links to send people to,and everyone would get on the bandwagon and write in,its just possible that in a year or so they might take the hint. I would be glad to write up posts on all of the sim sites i know of,with links to the projector companys, and also start spreading the word to the other gaming communitys,may seem far fetched,but ive seen a lot of other things get accomplished in this flight sim hobby by doing the exact same thing.
But before i get carried away,i have a couple of questions and maybe there are some of the guys here that could answer them.
Will Fsx run on this high resolution of say 5760X1080? You can see in the FSX display settings a list of full screen resolutions,where do these resolutions come from? are they from fsx or does fsx take them from the graphics card,and whatever the graphics card can display, fsx will follow suite? some explantion about this would be helpful.
Also ive recently been talking to a fellow, who is building me some new computers for my 737 sim, so of course he asked me what i want and about the visuals etc... so we got on the projector subject, and he asked how was i going to set them up,triplehead to go or video cards etc... and can the projectors run at 1920X1080 and i said no they wont,i cant find any projectors that will do that,not in the short throw that we need.
And he said thats to bad,because he has built several large visual systems that are running at 5760X1080 and even higher. He said that with the newest nvidea graphics cards,he can take 2 of them and tie them together to give you the 5760X1080 resolution,therefore we can eliminate the triplehead to go,that to my knowledge wont run at that high,atleast mine wont,tops is 5040X1050. And he also said that with the very newest cards that there will be no framerate hits either. So anyway this all sounds great,however we are still stuck back on the projector problem,no short throw high res projectors that will work for us.
Anyway i would like to get all of the input i could on this subject,and just maybe we can make another hurdle happen in the sim world.
Best regards,Tom
Hi Tom
if you search for "short throw 1080p projectors on the internet there are several available. Range as low as 1.5 metres. 1980X1080 is the standard "full HD " resolution which most manufacturers support
I'm sure I saw on the MS FS website in the SDK section that the max resolution of FSX is more than 9000 X 1024 it was on the FSX website in an article about the FSX.cfg file but I can't find it at the moment. I believe the limitaion for projectors is the fact that you can only use 1 video output to diplay the scenery from FSX (if you try to spread it over 2 graphics outputs it stalls or crashes), so you are limited to the max resolution of 1 output of your video card and the TH2Go. So 5760X1080 would appear to be the max at the moment. Most single new graphics cards support this but check the Matrox website for compatibility with the TH2GO.
I was very dissapointed also with the poor quality image of projectors so I went with 50 inch plasma tvs running at 1980x1080(full HD) comparable costand getting cheaper every day, nice crisp images ,but not the depth of immersion of projectors. You pay your money and take your choice
regards
geoff
Quote from: joneshesoftware on April 16, 2011, 08:48:28 AM
I was very dissapointed also with the poor quality image of projectors so I went with 50 inch plasma tvs running at 1980x1080(full HD) comparable costand getting cheaper every day, nice crisp images ,but not the depth of immersion of projectors. You pay your money and take your choice
regards
geoff
I'm glad to read that I'm not the only one disappointed with projectors. I was beginning to think I'm just too spoiled, which I may well be as well :)
Maurice
Not sure what you are after, but since I use one projector with a modest 1024 X768, I'm pretty happy with it, compared with reg monitors. Big image, fine in daylight (better in the dark of course), projected on a flat 8X4 screen .
Of course I'm planning 3 proj for later to get part of the side views, but the leap is "quantum" enough so far and even if taxiway signs are less readable from a distance, following airport maps makes up for it.
All in all, I like the big screen, but unless you fly VFR, 1024X768 projectors are good enough 4 me. Besides immersion has also a lot to do with fluidity. A crisp view does nothing for immersion if it runs as a fast slide show.
My½¢.
Jack, I'm very glad you are happy with your projector as I was when I only had one projector with a 1200x800 resolution but no short throw and a much smaller image. Magnify that image to a size required for wraparound view and see the big difference. I'm sure you wouldn't be quite as happy then.
As far as seeing a slide show with FSX, it seldom happens with decent hardware if you do not try to fly with AI over 20% or vehicular traffic. Even at KJFK or KORD, I'm nowhere near seeing a slide show and the only time it bothers me a bit is when taxiing and making a sharp turn since you will have some 'jumpiness in the image'. Takeoffs & landings though are very smooth, so no reason to ignore FSX except that I would wait for MS flight to see what it offers ;).
Maurice
Hi Geoff, well i have searched far and wide and i have not found any projectors that are the 1980x1080 with a short throw ratio of .5 which is really what we need, ive seen many mid to long throw projectors though with that resolution. now the projectors i have currently are the benq mp780st, the native resolution is 1280X800, now they will accept an incoming 1080P signal but then they down convert back to the 1280X800 resolution. If you happen to run into a projector like what were after by all means let me know where you have found it.
Best regards,Tom
You'd be disappointed with this...?
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=1003.0;attach=1112;image)
Looks pretty slick to me Sean :)
I think people just have to start realizing that when you are building a flight simulator, all aspects is somekind of a compromise. There is nothing like a free lunch in our field. This also goes for visuals. Most people would be very happy with having a large FOV screen, but see a few pixels if you are looking for them. The other option is to lower the FOV, or use 4 or 5 "4:3" projectors with 1280x1024 to make the same view. Whatever option, it will have its issues. A taxed setup with undocked views will be even harder to run with HD compared to wxga.
The projectors we are typically using is intended for schools, and small offices. I dont think flightsimulation is on the "target list" for the projectors we are using. So when there is a demand for HD shorts throws in the education/office field... the manfacturers will make them. Until then... we are in the shit ;) If we make a list of 1000 people to ask for production of ST HD beamers, the manufacturer would know that only 5% of the people will actually purchase them when they are launched. They need to sell thousands to be able to sell at a price within the regular consumers market.
There is no problem to get HD short throw projectors today, but it is costly. First you need a expensice projector that allow for lens change... then you need to buy the lens.... You must be loaded with cash to achieve this. But the option is there. If people want a Ferrari they have to pay for a Ferrari... Probably a total start price at 5-6000 Euro each.
The other option, is ceiling height... Increase this, and there is no need for short throws at all. Ceiling height vs FOV is the compromise key here.
Myself, I dont have any problems with seeing a few pixels, as long as I can have a very large FOV. It is a compromise I can live with. It is a very big setup for relatively small money. When I am flying, I am not looking for pixels anyway. I fly... And my friends get motion sickness if I fly like a drunk-driver. Thats an achievement...
;)
I should add...
that's Scotts setup above. My visuals are awaiting the MkII version and I'll be pleased if I can achieve what Scott has.
Hey Guys, thanks for your comments and opinions, but i think were getting a bit out of focus on the subject, at this level of the flight sim hobby,i dont think it is about accepting things,i think it is about acheiving things. if we were all happy about accepting things,then we would still be sitting behind a 22" monitor with a ch joystick in our hands. but now we are sitting in a 737 simulated cockpit with all the goodies.
Another good example is, i would bet most everyone of you has some add on scenery why? because you werent willing to accept the default scenery,who wants to look out at a bunch of brown blotches, not very pleasing to the eyes,and i would think after flying over miles of this stuff,i would have quit flying altogether.
And as far as getting the projector companys to do something like this,i dont think that it is an impossible task,all you need is one company to do it.
A great example of this is, nthusim, they just recently released their new version with (edge blending) why would they do that, one reason is that many people wrote into them,including myself, telling them ,i think you have a great product here but it would sure be nice to have edge blending included, not to mention,the fact that there were a couple of other companys coming out with edgeblending also.
And i completly understand that each individual has their own ideas of what they want out of their sim,for me personly i have always said,that 50% of my build was the simulator,the other 50% was the visuals, it just didnt make any sense to me to spend 20 or 30K on a simulator, only to look out the window and see some half A***ed visuals.
Now the good news is that the technology already exists, we just need to get it into a projector that works for our situation, and to be honest with you i have no idea,what that entails, but i do know that there are lots of mid to long throw projectors using 1080p already that are within the price range of the hobby consumer.
So if anyone is still interested in this subject let me know,as i will research the various links of the projector companys,and post them here,all you would have to do is write them a short note telling them what you would like to see and what it is being used for,you might be surprised.
I do know one thing though,if you give up before the battle starts,you will never win. you have every thing to gain and nothing to lose.
Anyway those are some great cliche's
take care guys,Tom
Quote from: astron on April 17, 2011, 06:55:36 AM
And i completly understand that each individual has their own ideas of what they want out of their sim,for me personly i have always said,that 50% of my build was the simulator,the other 50% was the visuals, it just didnt make any sense to me to spend 20 or 30K on a simulator, only to look out the window and see some half A***ed visuals.
I absolutely second your opinion here. Half-assed visuals were quite OK in the early days when projectors were a real luxury item but now that we can achieve 180+ degrees visuals, then visuals take a much more predominant role. Let's not forget that the only really busy times when flying is the takeoff & landing sequences. Other times is mostly just looking out the window & enjoying the scenery if the visuals allow you to enjoy the scenery. That depends on the projectors and on FSX & FSX scenery with several must have add-ons of course.
Once you get past the WOW! factor of seeing a big wraparound image (& that did not take very long for me), then you start noticing the image fuzziness which is most annoying when you are on the ground and can't read taxiway signs until you are practically on top of them, or when you are trying the see the runway in the distance when doing a VFR landing and all you see is grey mush until you get much closer. Knowing what I know now, I would have picked 3 large LCD or Plasma screens instead.
To compound the resolution limitations of current projectors, another big issue in my opinion at least is that any image warping software you use for a curved screen adds further degradation to the image sharpness. I can see that degradation quite well by switching from warped to unwarped as objects get shorter and fuzzier when the image is warped. Add that to the visible pixillation and the results are quite short of spectacular.
I'm very tempted to experiment with 3 large & flat angled screens instead of a curved screen. That would eliminate the need for warping but I have no idea about how easy or hard it would be to align the 3 projectors. Projector distance from the screen would have to be exact to get same size projections but of course this is not an issue when you use warping software. Food for thought (for me anyway).
I know that I will get replies saying that once you get busy really 'flying' & following procedures, the visuals will not matter as much but I seriously doubt that. Visuals are the MAIN reason why I got 3 projectors. 180+ degrees field of view was just an added bonus for me. As for the pictures that several people have posted of their curved screens and that look quite spectacular, I too can get spectacular pictures from a distance when you can't see the fine details. Not quite as spectacular inside the cockpit where it really counts.
Maurice
Maurice,i couldnt have said it better, your feelings mimic mine exactly. And i dont want you other guys to think that im whining about this subject,because thats not the point at all. The point is that there is already much greater projector technology out here,we just dont have it in the package we need. I guess part of my problem is that ive been sitting in front of 3 52" viewsonic monitors on a triplhead to go, add some killer scenery to that and crank up the lod radius in fsx,and you are looking at some mind blowing visuals, so yes when i went the 3 projector route,on 3 8ft wide screens, i expected things not to be as good, but also not quite this bad.
As with Maurice,yes the visuals are important to me, but there not to everybody and thats ok too.
And Maurice,for your information,you had mentioned going with 3 flat screens, well that is exactly how i built my setup, the center screen is 8ft wide ,allowing you to park the whole simulator in front of it. the 2 outer screens are angled in at about 60 degrees, so you can still look to your left and right and still see all screen. and the main reason for building it this way,was that i do not have to use any warping software, as far as aligning the projectors to the screens, it can be done manualy with some patience . but i found it much easier to just use some edge blending software that i found, I got in on some beta testing with the fly elise-ng people and i find that it works just great for me, you can download there software for free, try it out and if you like it, it costs around 50 bucks, i havent seen any where else you can get warping and edge blending software for that price.
Best regards,Tom
I'm gonna pick my side and go with Maurice and Tom. I have not tried the projector setup for this very reason. I want my visuals to be spot on. I have completely realistic AI traffic and tons of addon scenery, why would I want to have it be blurry? I love the idea of the wrap around 180 FOV, but the way it is now, I know I wouldn't be pleased and thus have not invested in it.
Tom
I'm glad you mentionned Fly-Elise.
I asked these guys to post here but they never did for whatever reason.
Please comment on the product as your feedback could help some of us here, including me.
(can you use the edge blendig without the warping? )
http://fly.elise-ng.net/
Well my turn to chime in on the subject. As many of you recall when I first setup my projectors I had the exact same realization that most here have described. Oh my gosh.....the clearity and crispness is gone! Yes, this is a fact using the projectors compared to LCD screens for sure. But for me I have decided that the immersion factor is worth it (much like Ivar stated). I wish the technology was better and when it does get better (probably within a few years) I will probably change out my projectors for the next big thing. That said, I am completely happy with the results I have achieved thus far (and really need to thank Ivar for pioneering the idea of the wraparound visuals for FSX and anyone else that helped). I still fly on a desktop PC with a 32 inch LCD whenever I want to enjoy my Orbx Scenery and a small light twin doing some bush flying in the Pacific Northwest and love the view and that kind of flying. When I want to fly on instruments and with all procedures required that is where the 737 comes in and IMHO the visuals are still really secondary to the eyecandy in the cockpit largely from FDS. I mean, there are still times I sit in my captains chair and just stare at the beautiful MIP, CDUs, etc..... The outside visuals in this case to me really have to allow for a hand flown landing and in flight need to supply that ambiance and sensation of movement through space which I just dont think you get without wraparound visuals. Today we are stuck with the projectors we have and their limitations IF your want that wraparound visual and the real sensation of movement and immersion you get. You just have to give up the detail for now and be happy with it until something new comes out. Tom has a great idea in lobbying the projector folks. My guess is that with the way technology moves we will see some higher resolutions soon anyway. When that time comes I will definitely as I said make the swap but for now I have so many hundreds and hundreds of hours to finish the simulator as it is and can have a blast flying in the visual enviroment I have which I only could have dreamed of just two short years ago. Sometimes we just have to be happy with what we have I guess and remember that many others would kill for it. I know that everyone who has come over and flown in my sim with the projected visuals so far have simply been blown away and for that I am happy. When my wife first sat in it and said she was getting dizzy I knew it was something special.
Scott
As most of you know, Ive played with a few visual set-ups myself...
and Id love 3 ST HD projectors one day...but It wont happen for a while unless you
want to spend 10K each at least I think.
If you focus on the pixels outside of course you will be disappointed, I am too sometimes,
but when you get in the "groove" and get immersed in a flight its awesome.
The same reason I turned "frame rate" counter off now...I used to stare at that and forget what i was doing.
What we have in terms of Sims and visuals is not LevelD but a whole lot better than what
some professional aviation companies have...beats the CH Yoke i had a few years ago :)
A few years ago there was no such thing as curved and blended 180 visuals for us...so the time will
come that HD short throws will be common place too...fingers crossed.
Nat
Quote from: XOrionFE link=topic=1658.msg12721#msg12721 date=1303124899
When my wife first sat in it and said she was getting dizzy I knew it was something special.
Scott
/quote]
My wife gets dizzy if I just pull a U turn in the car :).
I'm also very much aware that others would dearly love to have the same visuals I have now. Unfortunately, that does not compensate for seeing blurred images. I did not go through that much effort & expense to impress the occasional visitors. I did it for me, myself & I
And I say what's wrong with not being happy about fuzzy projections? That certainly does not mean I can't fly under those conditions. My only purpose in saying what I said was to help others make a choice based on facts rather than on seeing beautiful pictures taken from far away which do not show the inherent limitations of FSX & current projectors. If you know what you are getting into, you will be much less likely to be disappointed when you see the results.
Having said all that, it's still amazing that we have such choices thanks to the pioneering work of Ivar, Nat & a few others. I am definitely grateful to them as well for having expanded our choices. But the key word here is choices. Choose whatever makes sense for you & don't be seduced by pictures of 'sexy' stretched projection screens with lots of make-up (read warping software). When you get to live with them, you may regret overlooking the not so sexy but very lovable plain Jane smaller screens. :D
And yes, I am definitely a spoiled brat at the age of 66. I waited all my life to be spoiled and I don't apologize for that. ;D
Maurice
Hi Mr Scott, i knew you would make an appearance sooner or later lol. And Jack, yes you can use just the edgeblend feature of the software,and the cool thing is this stuff is so easy to use even a 4 year old can do it, lucky for me im atleast 5.
And guys dont get me wrong,im not here to downplay your visual systems,as i have the exact same thing,can i fly with it and live with it for now, sure i can i dont have much of a choice at this point.
My whole intent with this post,wasnt really to debate visual systems, it was meant more to gather a group of voices,to begin campaigning the projector companys to see if they might listen to us and build us a projector that might work for our situation. And the way i look at it,is maybe there is no one out there asking them, but if we start bothering them now, and start spreading the word to the rest of the gaming community,and others start writing in also, just maybe one day we can have our cake and eat it too.
I know many of you are saying that the visuals are a secondary issue next to the cockpit, why should it be? what if it didnt have to be? I really dont think there is one guy here,that given the opportunity, to be able to buy a 1080p projector with the short throw we need and the price range we could afford,wouldnt do it.
The sim world changed,the minute you went from a desktop sim,and climbed into a full size 737 cockpit simulator, therefore the visual system had to change also,3 monitors out in front of a 737 just dont cut it today, and yes thanks to Ivar for really getting the ball rolling, now i think it is time to take it a step further, and enhance the wrap around screens with some beautiful images. i know it can be done, but if nobody starts the ball rolling in that direction, then yes we might be waiting for ever to get this part accomplished.
As i have time i will do some research on getting us the correct links to some of the projector companys, it may only be as good as a customer support link,but i will have to look into it as i go. Then all you have to do is write a short note to them, it might sound something like this.
Dear sir, i am very much interested in buying one of your projectors, however i dont see anything here that will work for my application, myself along with a large group of people,are building airplane flight simulators, and each setup requires 3 projectors, we would like a high resolution 1080p projector,with a short throw of .5 or less, if you have anything like this or are intending on building something like this,i would very much appreciate it if you would let me know, there is a rather large gaming community looking for this type of projector.
thanks again best regards,Tom
I think the problem remains that the gaming community is nothing but noise to the PJ manufacturers. They represent little in the overall numbers of projectors sold. You'll see a decent priced 1920 x 1080 short throw when there is a business need (they being the largest market for Projectors) for such a projector.
When the board room needs an HD short throw, you'll likely see it in a portable device first. Perhaps by then, LED's will have gotten bright enough to power one.
Better to write them and say "I'm the buyer for XYZ, Inc and I'm interested in one" than "I'm a gamer and interested in one". Gamer conjures up 16 - 30 year olds with no disposable income in the minds of the business community :)
Hey John, not a bad idea,we could all pretend to be deans from upper class colleges:
Hi this is dean so and so from Yale,and we are in need of this particular type of projector,lol that might work until they caught on to us.
Or maybe we just send them some mindblowing pictures of our simulators,and they would realize these arent 10 year olds playing with this stuff.
For sure, when there is HD ST available, I am in for it too. By then maybe we have MS flight (hopefully working for our visuals need...),
and better computers to run the show also.
I dont have any problems to understand what you guys are saying. You can see the pixels for sure. And I wish I could be without the pixelation. The alternative is beamers with longer throw, and more ceiling height + a double curved screen. Or playing with mirrors and stuff... There are options. The only reason for using ST beamers is to prevent the cockpit from making shadows. But I dont think it is too realistic to think about low-cost HD ST yet. The demand must come from source that requires a few thousand items. Then it will happen. And I believe it will happen. The ST wxga have been around for a while now... But if some people gather to try to influent the manufacturers, I really wish you good luck, and hope it will help. I am not against the idea, but it is not realistic in my opinion.
But considered the amount of money spent in the sim already... 15.000 Euro for high end beamers with special lenses is not that bad... They are out there. If visuals are a main priority, the option should be considered. 15.000 Euro is approx the same as a complete MIP+TQ with all the stuff in it.
;)
...and with the current value of the Zimbabwe, err, I mean US Dollar, $15K Euro is equal to $7.8 Million USD :)
Ivar
What is a double curved screen. :-[
Quote from: jackpilot on April 18, 2011, 04:59:41 AM
Ivar
What is a double curved screen. :-[
I'm guessing a spherical screen. Curved horizontally and vertically :)
Would an increase from 1280 to 1920 pixels cure the issues under debate here?
Not completely spherical, but with a curve side to side and a gentle bow at the top and bottom.
Your question has been answered Jack :)
HD projectors will not cure the pixelation, but it will make the pixels approximately 50% smaller, so it will certainly help.
Hey Ivar, if i could reduce the pixel size by 50% i just might be happy with that. i think the facts are that unless they come out with an incredibly high resolution,that you will never be able to completly eliminate the pixels. i am running my 52" monitors at the same resolution as i was the projectors,which is 1280X1024 now if you sit back 6ft away from the monitors and fly,you see absolutly no pixels because they are so small, if i walk up to the monitors and look at them from 6" away you can see the pixels small as they may be.
Now increase that image size to an 8ft wide by 5ft tall screen, and voila there are the pixels, its all starting to make more sense to me now.
Tom
Building my home theater and using a Cinema Scope 130" 2.35 screen. With a 1920 x 1080 Panasonic HD projector there's a bit of pixels at 10ft, but I can easily live with that given the immersion with that screen.
Now its not 22ft of linear wrap around viewing, but I'll bet we would still have pixels given the screen would be 6ft or so from the captains seat. Even spreading that 22ft across 3 PJ's
Question for those who have a 1:1 shell:
Assuming a 6-8 feet distance from eyeview to screen what is the required height of the screen so that the front window is filled up vertically. ?
Hey Jack, i think i see where you are headed here, as im having the same thoughts,now that i understand things a little better, if we could reduce the image size to just fill the window space,we would also reduce the pixel size, now i have one of petes shells assembled out in the shop its still being worked on,and my screens are in the house,so i cant really do alot of testing just yet but i can get an idea of measurements from out in front of the shell with a tape measure, im going to work a little more on that as soon as i can.
I guess then my question would be how small is to small, i mean we dont want to look out onto a runway that is 2ft across, now we also have some zoom factor to work with in fsx, i think Ivar would know more about this then anyone
Ivar im curious just to see if my screens are to big, what is the vertical height of your image onto the screens, that way i can figure out if im too big or to small, i know youre running curved screens and i am using flat screens, the screens are 8ft wide,so i have filled them to that width and it gives me a 5ft tall image.
Tom
From my own one proj visual, with screen at 7feet distance from eye, I had a 5 feet vertical image filling all the window, when seated properly
The extra image (unseen from normal eye position)being placed more down than up
If I leaned forward I still could see the runway, limited by the AC nose slope, (ie: full picture )
If looking up at MCP level I could see over the edge of the screen but usually you do not do that since the passing ( FL650) Concorde retired!
Here is a quick and bad drawing of what I mean.
Bottom line, how small can the image be vertically so that we can lean forward , look down and see the runway or landscape, or sit normally and have a full vertical window.
Definitely interesting.
My screen is total of 2,4 meters tall, and the image is approx 1.8 meter, but I am also using the "curves" down to the floor so my image is basically 2.1 meters tall, except for in the projector joints. But the joints is in the "corners" of the sim, so I cant see the bottom of the screen there anyway. My radius is 2.35 meters. People have tried to increase the radius, but the pixelation would appear worse, so it makes sense to make the screen smaller. For the "immersion factor", I think my radius is pretty good. But for a smaller sim, like a cessna, 2.35 meters radius will result in a huge "floor view" when looking out the window, as the screen is so far from you.
When I sit in my 737, the pixelation is worst on the left side, as I am closest to the screen there. Looking to the right, the issue is a lot smaller of course.
Reducing the image size will also reduce the pixel size, but you will also get closer to the screen. Still I believe that it will appear better for your eyes. The tricky part is where to place the projectors, as they have to come down also. Could get issues with the simulators roof. Some drawingwork to be done for sure.
It could be interesting to make a small doublecurved screen, and see if it would work. The projectors have to be "angled" downwards, so doublecurved is a must I think. Not sure, but I would believe that a setup like CAE is using would be the ultimate. Make the projectors project the image to a small doublecurved screen on the top of the shell, and have a big screen that will reflect the image of the smaller. Tricky optical calculation to do though. But I do wonder how a setup like that will "handle" the pixelation. Maybe it will not be so obvious... No idea actually. But something is telling me that the pixels could become less obvious.
I think this is a very good discussion. Many different subjects coming up in this thread. And the idea of making a regular "large-pixel-beamer" setup, but at the same time remove the Lego feeling is very interesting. At the end of the day, it is optics, but hey, they were on the moon in the 60s with less datapower that matches my cats digital tag... lol, so we should be able to do something interesting here.
:)
@Jack
I think a doublecurved screen would be your answer Jack. Your eyes might see the screen instead of the floor. Attaching a link here... Look at the image on the right side a few pixels down the page.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collimated_light (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collimated_light)
I think the front projection could definitely be much smaller since the front windows block out most of the view anyway. The main problem is with the left side window. You are very close to that window and therefore you see much more of the screen. So if you can live with not filling the side windows, you could indeed place the projectors closer to the screen.
That would increase the image sharpness but unfortunately at the expense of total field of view since you also need a large horizontal projection for a full 180+ view. Still, this could be a very good compromise to increase the image sharpness and well worth investigating.
Maurice
Yes you are right on the money about everything you just said Maurice, i dont have my sim finished yet but did stick the mip section in place and put the 737 seat where i think it should be,the closest i could come to the center screen if i stuck the nose of the shell against the wall,would give me an eye point distance of about 5ft, at this point i dont really know if that is to close or not, i think once we get everything in place in the house,we will just have to play around with it and see what we come up with, pretty much all guess work at this point
Tom
Distance and angle are major factors.
Has someone tested or figured out a 180 setup using mirrors and/or backscreen projection?
::)
QuoteHas someone tested or figured out a 180 setup using mirrors and/or backscreen projection?
I think you should be the first Jack? :P
Nat
Not now.. , I have a new DSTD to build. Like some others I Know! :D
So far I agree with Scott on the visual issue.
But after all, pro sims are full of mirrors!
I found in my "archives" an old concept which could be interesting, assuming the screen is set a bit further from the windshield and the reflected image path is in fact wider than shown
Not sure where you are going with that Jack. What is the problem you are trying to solve? In my opinion, introducing 2 more variables like mirrors and rear projection screen makes things much more complicated and unless you have no room for regular projection, I wouldn't even think of trying that since there is really nothing to gain except space perhaps. But that's me :)
Maurice
Hey Guys, well i decided to do some research this morning,as i couldnt get this projector business out of my head. since at present there is nothing in front of my sim screens,i decided to grab one of my benq mp780st projectors and stick it in front of the center screen.
First thing i wanted to check ,would it look as good as my 52 monitor set at the same width and resolution,and the answer is yes it does,well alsmost as good,my screen wall isnt quite profeesional grade but pretty nice. So the next thing i thought,was ok go and measure the length across the front of the simulator nose,it comes out at about 68". Now back downstairs,pull the projector back to 68", does it look good , why yes it does,about a 100% better, then at 8ft across, you would really have to look for the pixels to see them,and amazing difference.
So i parked my chair back at 5ft, which is exactly the same distance,as my eyepoint would be with the sim shoved right up against the screen wall, does it look good yes it looks fabulous, and i also had no eye strain looking at it for a long period of time,actualy it seems easier on my eyes then being back further.
Ok so with the image at 68" wide that put the vertical image at about 42". so back into the sim, with my helper holding a tape measurer up against the nose,straight up,i was able to view about 31" of screen,so good there, off to the right,about 34" there, Now out to the left 41" basicaly the vertical height of the screen, Now my left screen wall is also flat it comes off the center screen wall at 60 degrees, so the 68 inches of that image actualy end back about 5" into the back side window which is great, if i turn my head left 90 degrees i am looking right into the center post between the 2 side windows, i really dont think i need to turn my head any further than that unless you want a neck ache. i going to black out both side rear windows anyway i personly dont see much value in them.
So anyway my eyepoint out to the left screen 4ft is closest, anyway, once we can get the sim into the house and set it up ,we can do a little further testing to see how it comes out,but so far things are looking up.
It was quite amazing at what taking 2 ft off the width of the image could do, i personaly think its quite workable now,if all goes well setting the sim up.
Tom
That's great info & great news Tom. I'm just wondering though if the shell might get in the way of the projection surfaces that you can actually see. You may want to try & place one projector in position and see if there is any interference.
Thanks,
Maurice
Hey Maurice, i dont know for sure yet,it may be a little while before i can get the sim down into the basemant, but the good news is that the projectors have to be moved closer to the screen walls away from the simulator,so im hoping were good there i think we will be. and its hard to say how everything will look to you,when its up and running. And to be honest with you i think there is probably a little more room left to increase the screen size before it starts to get real bad,we will let you know when we get there.
Tom
Great, please keep us updated.
Thanks,
Maurice
Quote from: maurice on April 19, 2011, 04:40:44 AM
Not sure where you are going with that Jack. What is the problem you are trying to solve? In my opinion, introducing 2 more variables like mirrors and rear projection screen makes things much more complicated and unless you have no room for regular projection, I wouldn't even think of trying that since there is really nothing to gain except space perhaps. But that's me :)
Maurice
Was just a thought.
Might help on two fronts
1) no need for super short throw, which means more resolution available at a decent price
2) no more problem with the shell shadow, less keystone, better sharpness...
Just a thought!
Quote from: jackpilot on April 19, 2011, 11:42:36 AM
Was just a thought.
Might help on two fronts
1) no need for super short throw, which means more resolution available at a decent price
2) no more problem with the shell shadow, less keystone, better sharpness...
Just a thought!
I think the price of rear projection screens at that size would probably make the projector savings less attractive, but that's just a guess.
Maurice
I was starting to think maybe my eyes are gone, but I flew last night and I was honestly
happy with my image. Like I said if you look for pixels you will find them, but until HD ST's
come out I'll survive.
My image size is 6.5ft tall and 26 ft wide if that helps.
I know things look better in little pics but heres one early shot...
If you guys werent on the wrong side of the world Id invite you all over! :)
Nat
Click on the pic:
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4077%2F4890815848_fde3ec6d76_b.jpg&hash=0763e77666f1ada655d143c63ea4c87315509b8d)
Quote from: melnato on April 19, 2011, 02:45:34 PM
Like I said if you look for pixels you will find them, but until HD ST's
come out I'll survive.
Nat
Click on the pic:
I don't know about that...I may just shoot myself :). Of course this is nice from a distance but from the cockpit...not so nice.
However, I finally got to do a few 'serious' short flights as opposed to sightseeing flights and I was so busy, I barely looked outside so the pixels were not even in my consciousness.
Moral of the story, do flights of max 1.5 hours and the scenery will not be an issue anymore. That's what I was always planning to do anyway as I cannot stand the boredom of long flights. So all & all, this is still pretty amazing. I had really forgotten where I was just a couple of years ago, so no more whining from me about the visuals ;D
Maurice
Quote from: melnato on April 19, 2011, 02:45:34 PMMy image size is 6.5ft tall and 26 ft wide if that helps.
I know things look better in little pics but heres one early shot...
If you guys werent on the wrong side of the world Id invite you all over! :)
Nat
Ah, so it was your setup I saw in another thread.
Nat, do you have a website or somewhere I can see more pictures of your setup. I'm particularly interested in your screen and visual setup.
Cheers.
Sean
Hey Sean,
I havent taken many pics this year, but theres a nice thread on my WideView visuals,
including progress pics from last year at FDS:
http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4209 (http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4209)
I dont own a TH2Go anymore, so the guys here are more help if you go that way...
but if its Wideview your after, Ill do my best... :o
Nat
Quote from: melnato on April 19, 2011, 02:45:34 PM
If you guys werent on the wrong side of the world Id invite you all over! :)
Nat
We're on the wrong side of the world????!!!! ??? Hmmmmm....I think its the other way around Nat! :laugh:
Scott
Hey Guys, its funny how the beginning topic turns into something else, LOL but that happens all the time,and in this case isnt such a bad thing, i think the point now to focus on,is how can we improve upon the projectors that we have now. As the projectors we would really like are not available to us yet anyway. So atleast ive learned a few things from this,that yes i can reduce the image size,and it looks a lot better to my eyes,and also may be a workable solution,for better visuals if it all fits around the sim like i hope it will, for now since i have my large sceens already setup and that took sometime,i think i will leave them in place and atleast setup the sim and fly in front of them for a while to get the feel for the whole thing, we already know that the look of the image is not as good at this size,but i also want to feel the immersion factor of the screens for a while,and after i do that,and know what its like, then i may very well proceed to build a tighter screen around the sim therefore being able to reduce the image size for a better quality picture, but also be able to see if the immersion factor and other things will be the same as the larger setup. anyway this has been a great discussion guys,and feel free to keep it going if you like, and maybe in the near future i will have some more info if we build the sized down version.
take care for now,Tom
Tom,
Looking at your posts about reducing the size I am somewhat grinning. I always said that the pixelation really isnt that noticable to me and although not as great as an LCD screen I could live with my setup. Well.......
My Diameter is 12ft and therefore my screen height is 4 ft and width of each section is only about 80". My projector throw is only 3.5'. Therefore my eyepoint to screen is close like what you are testing Tom. My windows are filled up with the view and unless I stick my head up against the windows all I really see is projected view...no room. This is what I always thought that moving closer gives better resolution than further away so I kept mine as close as I could while still filling the windows with view. I believe that for a 737 at least and todays technology, 12 ft is the optimal diameter of the screens. Don Harrison and a few others can attest to the view that have been over. Here is my diagram of my setup. This says 195 degree and I did adjust to 210 degree but still pretty close to same dimensions.
Scott
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4110%2F4963707028_5293639eac.jpg&hash=52c6b08dcfa3511e9fd58c66c80e9e3bd809d97d)
QuoteWe're on the wrong side of the world?!!!! Hmmmmm....I think its the other way around Nat!
Scott
I thought it was normal to live upside down? Am I the only one? ;D
Nat
Quote from: XOrionFE on April 20, 2011, 01:06:06 PM
My Diameter is 12ft and therefore my screen height is 4 ft and width of each section is only about 80". My projector throw is only 3.5'. Therefore my eyepoint to screen is close like what you are testing Tom.
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm5.static.flickr.com%2F4110%2F4963707028_5293639eac.jpg&hash=52c6b08dcfa3511e9fd58c66c80e9e3bd809d97d)
Well, now I understand why you were not too bothered with the resolution. It all makes sense now...your projections must be quite a bit sharper than mine since my projectors are about 6' from the wall. That's almost twice the distance and the pixels must be twice as large.
I think I can see a new screen in my future unless I learn to live with what I have. But knowing that it is just a question or replacing the screen, the tempation may just be too much. :)
Maurice
Why not take a piece of poster board (2x4 sheet) and suspend it from a stick going from top of shell to top of your screen so you can move it back and forth adjusting the distance away from the shell to see how the projection would look at varied distances to see if better for you or not. you could do it on each side and out in front.
In fact, I get tired of hunting for the ok button with the mouse sometimes so I have a drop down screen that drops really close into the center projector outside the shell so I can see things up close when adjusting settings. Then i pull on a string and it flips up out of the way. I should take a picture when I have a moment. Works pretty slick.
Anyway...I digress...
Quote from: XOrionFE on April 20, 2011, 01:59:02 PM
o I have a drop down screen that drops really close into the center projector outside the shell so I can see things up close when adjusting settings. Then i pull on a string and it flips up out of the way. I should take a picture when I have a moment. Works pretty slick.
Anyway...I digress...
Very smart idea there Scott. This has annoyed me to no end as well. And I was just going to do what you suggested re. trying to put a temporary screen closer to the projectors and see how things improve.
Thanks,
Maurice
Here are some quick pics:
Ingenious! Simple but very effective
Maurice
The rope comes through the back of the cockpit to a hook just over my shoulder. I am a real lazy ass! Especially when I have a pint in my hand ;D
Scott
Quote from: XOrionFE on April 20, 2011, 02:26:14 PM
The rope comes through the back of the cockpit to a hook just over my shoulder. I am a real lazy ass! Especially when I have a pint in my hand ;D
Scott
You drink & fly!!!!! Shame on you ;D
Maurice :cheers:
OK, this is what I found. I placed a sheet of drywall at the end of the shell nose, so as close as practical without suspending the sheet closer to the front window. This reduced the projection distance by about 1/3. Strangely enough, I did not even have to re-focus the projector as the text in a Windows Explorer window was about as sharp as I have ever seen.
Pros:
The image was noticeably brighter and with more contrast even though the drywall was neither primed nor painted
Pixel size was noticeably smaller
Image seemed slightly sharper as far as I could tell but not as sharp as I was hoping
Cons:
Even though the pixels were much smaller, they were just as visible since they were closer
With the closer image, I felt more like I was looking at a screen rather than at the outside world. My eyes needed to refocus to look at the closer screen compared to the further screen. Whether that would be true or not if I was completely surrounded by the closer screen is yet to be determined.
There was a taxiway sigh that was too fuzzy to read on my original screen and when I placed the drywall at that spot, I still could not read the sign but it had more contrast.
My conclusion:
If I had to rebuild the screen because my basement burned down (Hmmm!!!! I wonder... ::)) then I would definitely build it closer like Scott did.
But at this point, I don't think it's worth it for me to go to the trouble of tearing down that huge wall and starting over. In a year or two...maybe :)
Maurice
Hey Scott,pretty cool invention there,you have some Rube Goldberg in you too. And i can see how your image may be a little clearer then mine now, as my screen is 96" across so even bringing down to 80" is going to be some improvement, and bringing it down to 68" was a big improvement in my opinion, yes if you look real hard for the pixels you can see them but it certainly cleared things up quite a bit,to where i could be happy with it.,a couple other things i did yesterday was to play with some of the settings in the projector,one thing i noticed was if i took the brightness down a little the pixels were even less noticeable,they seem to be more noticeable in the lighter colors mainly white, it seems the pixels have a dark edge around them. But either way we will get setup and have fun and play with those things down the line, my main thing now is i just want to get in the sim and do some flying.
Tom
Perhaps this is what we are looking for?
http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/projector-sinovatech/product-detaileoqnHvyOMbRI/China-Extra-Short-Throw-Full-HD-1080p-Projector-HD1080-F-HQV-.html (http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/projector-sinovatech/product-detaileoqnHvyOMbRI/China-Extra-Short-Throw-Full-HD-1080p-Projector-HD1080-F-HQV-.html)
Or it might have to be even better throw ratio?
Wonder if anyone besides Ivar who experimented with lenses and sverical mirrors?
This topic is already an oldy, but I just starting my project and have build an 200 FOV screen with a radius of 2,40m with 3 projectors.
Now The screen is finished I am looking for the right projector. It seems that it will be the B&Q mw814st.
What I wonder now is that (the issue of this topic) FSC in Italy does provide 1920x1080 projectors. I think they are not ST, and they have also not enough space in their simulator how they builded it.
Is this a costum made projector or something??
Somebody knows?
Here is the link of the specification, please go to one of the last sheets where the projector isillustrated.
http://www.flightsimulatorcenter.com/shop_manuali.aspx?codice=859210&tipo=1 (http://www.flightsimulatorcenter.com/shop_manuali.aspx?codice=859210&tipo=1)
Thats a projector made by projectiondesign in Norway. Very high quality, and most of their projectors have several lens options. But it is not in reach for most homebuilder budgets ;)
Quote from: ivar hestnes on February 25, 2012, 08:06:45 AM
Thats a projector made by projectiondesign in Norway. Very high quality, and most of their projectors have several lens options. But it is not in reach for most homebuilder budgets ;)
Do you know what price these projectors costs approx?
No idea of the price for this one.
But it is professional grade items, and pricing is according to that.
Link to the manufacturer and the F12.
http://www.projectiondesign.com/products/f12-series (http://www.projectiondesign.com/products/f12-series)
Quote from: Sudden81 on January 15, 2012, 01:59:42 AM
Perhaps this is what we are looking for?
http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/projector-sinovatech/product-detaileoqnHvyOMbRI/China-Extra-Short-Throw-Full-HD-1080p-Projector-HD1080-F-HQV-.html (http://www.made-in-china.com/showroom/projector-sinovatech/product-detaileoqnHvyOMbRI/China-Extra-Short-Throw-Full-HD-1080p-Projector-HD1080-F-HQV-.html)
Or it might have to be even better throw ratio?
Wonder if anyone besides Ivar who experimented with lenses and sverical mirrors?
Somebody knows if someone tried this projector. Or know this is some good option?
It looks like it comes from China.......
hi all
here are some more short throw high definition projectors
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/100727/211383706/1080p-short-throw-projectors.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/100727/211383706/1080p-short-throw-projectors.html)
Quote from: clayton4115 on April 09, 2012, 12:02:42 AM
hi all
here are some more short throw high definition projectors
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/100727/211383706/1080p-short-throw-projectors.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/100727/211383706/1080p-short-throw-projectors.html)
Thanks Clayton,
But I hav e already purchased 3 beamer, the B&Q MW814ST. The short throw HD beamer where must too expensive.
See my next post/reply to Ivar.
Quote from: ivar hestnes on February 25, 2012, 10:28:41 AM
No idea of the price for this one.
But it is professional grade items, and pricing is according to that.
Link to the manufacturer and the F12.
http://www.projectiondesign.com/products/f12-series (http://www.projectiondesign.com/products/f12-series)
I have had a quotation of this beamer but there are two problems with it:
1. Price : €. 9500,00/ beamer. Lens €. 1500,00/lens. And I need three of them!!! (you can buy half of your 737 cockpit of this amount)
2. The throw is not short enough for a screen setup with radius 2,40 meter. Then you need more height so the beamer can positioned on approx 2,90m and project under need the other, so they are crossing each other.
Quote from: clayton4115 on April 09, 2012, 12:02:42 AM
hi all
here are some more short throw high definition projectors
http://www.aliexpress.com/store/100727/211383706/1080p-short-throw-projectors.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/store/100727/211383706/1080p-short-throw-projectors.html)
Projectors look very affordable, however with this resolution FSX setup definitely requires three top-end PCs just for visuals. If I didn't have my projectors already, I would think about those ones. Would be interesting to see somebody's report about this projector even if it's a single one.
Nick
Quote from: Flying_Fox on April 10, 2012, 07:03:33 AM
Projectors look very affordable, however with this resolution FSX setup definitely requires three top-end PCs just for visuals. If I didn't have my projectors already, I would think about those ones. Would be interesting to see somebody's report about this projector even if it's a single one.
Nick
I would quite agree here. The images might be sharper, but watching a slide show would kind of damper the joy of seeing sharp images :). I don't think the current PC technology would be sufficient for smooth frame rates at that resolution especially with 3 undocked views.
However, if you are rich enough to afford Wideview, then this would be amazing (Hey Nat, how about it? it's only another 3K or so ;D
Maurice
Quote from: maurice on April 10, 2012, 08:28:41 AM
Quote from: Flying_Fox on April 10, 2012, 07:03:33 AM
Projectors look very affordable, however with this resolution FSX setup definitely requires three top-end PCs just for visuals. If I didn't have my projectors already, I would think about those ones. Would be interesting to see somebody's report about this projector even if it's a single one.
Nick
I would quite agree here. The images might be sharper, but watching a slide show would kind of damper the joy of seeing sharp images :). I don't think the current PC technology would be sufficient for smooth frame rates at that resolution especially with 3 undocked views.
However, if you are rich enough to afford Wideview, then this would be amazing (Hey Nat, how about it? it's only another 3K or so ;D
Maurice
Beamers look nice but I am not very happy with cheap chinese products. Normaly beamers in short throw with 1080p are expensive.
But I do not think the hardware must be a problem to run the 3 hd beamers. I have a setup witch is suitable for smooth picture and high frame rates with 3 hd 1080p beamers or LCD screens.
This is my setup:
? 1x Intel i7-2600K (4x 3400Mhz, 4x 256 kB L2-Cache) processor (overclocked naar 4.7 MHz)
? 1x Corsair Cooling Hydro Series H60 CPU cpu-cooler
? 1x Corsair Dominator 8GB DDR3 1600 Quad-kit 8-8-8-24 (2x 4GB Kit) geheugen
? 1x ASUS Sabertooth P67 Rev 3.0 socket 1155 mainboard
? 3x ASUS Nvidia ENGTX580 1536MB DDR5 PCI-E 4x videokaart (t.b.v. 3x 24"LCD of 3x HD Beamer)
? 1x OCZ Vertex3, TRIM 240GB SATA600 SSD solid state disk (t.b.v. Windows 7 en FSX)
? 1x WD1002FAEX 4.2/64/7200 hardeschijf (t.b.v. FSX Scenery, Data en Backup)
? 1x Lian-Li PC-A70FB Big Tower systeemkast
? 1x Antec TruePower High Current 1200W SLI-Ready 4x PCI-E voeding
? 1x ASUS SATA DVD/CD/RW speler
? 1x Intel i7-2500K (4x 3300Mhz, 4x 256 kB L2-Cache) processor
? 1x Corsair Dominator 8GB DDR3 1600 Quad-kit 8-8-8-24 (2x 4GB Kit) geheugen
? 1x ASUS Sabertooth P67 Rev 3.0 socket 1155 mainboard
? 2x ASUS Nvidia ENGTS450 1024MB DDR5 PCI-E 2x videokaart (t.b.v. 4x MIP LCD beeldschermen)
? 1x OCZ Vertex3, TRIM 120GB SATA600 SSD solid state disk (t.b.v. Windows 7 en Prosim737)
? 1x Lian-Li PC-A70FB Big Tower systeemkast
? 1x Antec TruePower High Current 600W SLI-Ready2x PCI-E voeding
? 1x ASUS SATA DVD/CD/RW speler
This is what I consider high end PCs!!! ???
Quote from: Olafson on April 10, 2012, 10:50:49 AM
But I do not think the hardware must be a problem to run the 3 hd beamers. I have a setup witch is suitable for smooth picture and high frame rates with 3 hd 1080p beamers or LCD screens.
This is my setup:
I beg to differ. :)
At the moment there is no single PC that can run FSX with 3 HD 1080p displays of any kind with smooth picture and high frame rates.
I have very similar system (2600K overclocked to 4.6 Ghz, 8 GB RAM, one GTX570 + TH2Go, two SSD drives 60 and 120 GB, Win 7-64, 3 x Optoma GT720 at 1280x800 ) and with all tweaks it can only run ~ 15 FPS with 3 undocked windows with heavy ORBX scenery on the runway. With one stretched front view FPS are not much of a problem (usually over 30). But the graphic is not as nice as with 3 undocked windows.
It will not be able to run the same 3 windows at 1080P at any decent frame rate. Three GTX580 cards (or one GTX590 ;) ) may be nice to replace TH2Go, but they will not help with frame rates since main FSX graphics engine still runs only on one processor core, and that's what defines the possible frame rates.
Nick
Totally agree with you Nick. I too have a very high end system and there is no way my system could run at that resolution with 3 undocked windows as opposed to a single view stretched over 3 projections.
So I still think I would be seeing a slide show with that higher resolution.
Maurice
hi all
a little update to this thread, look at this 1080P HD Short throw projector
http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/594078680/Top_Rank_Home_Theater_3LCD_Short.html (http://www.alibaba.com/product-gs/594078680/Top_Rank_Home_Theater_3LCD_Short.html)
Why the heck do they not tell you arguably the most important bit of info for a short throw projector, the throw ratio?
Pardon my ignorance, Sean, but what is the throw ratio?
Frank Cooper
http://www.theprojectorpros.com/learn-s-learn-p-theater_throw_ratios.htm (http://www.theprojectorpros.com/learn-s-learn-p-theater_throw_ratios.htm)
Essentially it's a number, shown as a ratio. I think short throw is considered anything less than 1, but I may be wrong, but in any case, most sim builders will be looking for a short throw projector with a throw ratio of 0.5:1 or better (e.g. 0.4:1).
Anything more, then shadows become a problem as the projectors are moved further back to increase the screen size.
So, for example, a projector with a throw ratio of 0.9:1 would be considered short throw, but would be unsuitable for use in most sims.
Sean
Thanx Sean.
I'm trying to gather as much info as I can, so I can make the best possible choices for my visuals.
Much appreciate the info, mate.
Frank Cooper
They do not define a throw ratio, but looking at the "projection distance" and "screen size" spec limits one would conclude this thing is not short throw at all. For example....a 22.5inch screen @ 1.5meters? But as things many times are with China things can be lost in the translation.
Guy on AVS forums has one and reports 10'8" distance gives him 93" diagonal. Definitely not a short throw.
http://www.avsforum.com/t/1307577/cre-x1000-worlds-first-3-led-3-lcd-1080p-projector-anybody-heard-of-these-guys/60 (http://www.avsforum.com/t/1307577/cre-x1000-worlds-first-3-led-3-lcd-1080p-projector-anybody-heard-of-these-guys/60)
I have 3 BenQ MW814 ST projectors. From about 4 1/2 feet back from the screen, it throws a screen size of just over 8' wide. They are 1280 x 800 native resolution.
Harry
Here is what we are looking for. Who is going to be the first to buy and report :)
http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-Full-HD-1080P-LCD-Projector-with-short-throw-lens-double-HDMI-TV-Tuner-High/624433582.html (http://www.aliexpress.com/item/Brand-New-Full-HD-1080P-LCD-Projector-with-short-throw-lens-double-HDMI-TV-Tuner-High/624433582.html)
David
Wow, look at that rating:
Shenzhen Vivibright Micro-Display Technolog...
China (Mainland) (Guangdong)
246
76.9%Positive feedback
13 Ratings
Detailed Seller Ratings information is unavailable when there're less than 10 ratings..
I'll wait :)
Having read the specific complaints, history and nature of products sold across the 240+ feedback entries it did not seem disastrously bad to me. A risk, yes, worth it perhaps? Always use Paypal just in case :)
David
Thanks for all the information. This is one of the most informative threads I have ever read.
Has anyone gone ahead and purchased the 1920 X 1080 ST projector from Vivibright?
Any feedback?
Regards to all.
Greg. Perth, Australia.
Dear All,
i´d like to warm up this interesting topic once more.
As i am planning a new visual system i would like to ask you if you found a decent Projector whith a throw ration of 0.5 and full HD capability.
During my research for projectors i could not find anything which is affordable.
So the best what i could find (cost/ratio) would be the Acer S1370WHN. It comes with a throw ration of 0.5 and does 1280x800. It costs approv 650€ and would be my choice.
The layout for my visual system can be found as attached picture. The diameter of the curved screen is 3.40 m. No shadow problems etc.
NOW: Should i go for the investment of the projectors ? At the moment i have 3 x 40 inch LCD screen in fron of the cockpit and i really would like to get a higher immersion rate. I read all theposts about pixels and blurry image quality. Does this ruin the benefit of a wrap around experience ? I think the 225 degree FOV will put the immersion to a crazy high level...
If somebody found a better solution (except Scott with his insane 5 x 60 inch setup ) -any input is highly appreciated.
Andy
www.masterploxis.de (http://www.masterploxis.de)
Uh Oh...Projector vs TV war looming :)
I think you answered your question...3 smaller HD TV visuals vs larger lower Rez Surround visuals.
I think its whats important to you.
There is no HD Projector with a throw ratio of 0.5 around at the moment that I know of.
Nat
Andy,
I don't know if you watch "The Big Bang Theory" on TV, but this is another example of the "Schrodinger's cat" paradox.
Unless you get a chance to try or at least see both options by yourself, you will never know for sure which one will satisfy you the most.
For those of us who have tried or seen both options, the answer is more obvious but our experience/conclusion can in no way guarantee yours will be the same.
Unfortunately, this is one decision that nobody can make for you since nobody knows what is truly the most important thing for you and maybe you don't even know yourself either :)
Maurice
There is no right answer for your question.
Best way is as suggested to see it yourself. best way is to book a flight at a simulator( commercial or private) and see it with your own eyes.
here is a new website which compares a flightsimulator in germany, austria, and switzerland. both commercial and private sims.
as you are german there will be no understanding problem, as it is in german.
http://www.flugsimulator-vergleich.de/ (http://www.flugsimulator-vergleich.de/)
Kresimir
Hello,
thanks for the fast responses. I think i already made up my mind with the planning of the curved screen.
So i will go for the projector solution. Immersion has a higer priority than reading taxi signs ; )
Andy
www.masterploxis.de (http://www.masterploxis.de)
The easiest and cheapest wraparound setup is still projectors. Having a setup like mine gives you full immersion and all the clarity in the world but is incredibly expensive in number of computers and a lot of setup. Single computer with projectors and surround view gives the immersion at best price and level of complexity.....though looks like crap :o
;D
Good luck with whatever you choose
Scott
QuoteThere is no HD Projector with a throw ratio of 0.5 around at the moment that I know of.
Nat
There is one way to help improve the vertical/horizontal ratio when using the BenQ 1080ST projector. That is changing the aspect ratio from 16:9 to 4:3 and with the BenQ there is no loss of resolution.
As well, the 500 series Nividia cards aren't capable of handling the kind of 3 projector display simmers need. They require a TH2G which just adds another layer of latency and you lose a couple of FPS. I suggest at least the 660 and up cards which have Surround View, thus eliminating the TH2G. A friend of mine has recently purchased the Nvidia 780 and with 3GB of memory, he said it made quite a difference to the smooth operation of FS X.
I will add to my previous comment also that while I love my 5 60" displays....i flew a lot more when I had projectors on a TH2GO. There is something to be said about running off one computer....no way your going to get 1080 and total smoothness but you will get more hours flying without other complexities and issues.
Scott
QuoteThere is one way to help improve the vertical/horizontal ratio when using the BenQ 1080ST projector. That is changing the aspect ratio from 16:9 to 4:3 and with the BenQ there is no loss of resolution.
As well, the 500 series Nividia cards aren't capable of handling the kind of 3 projector display simmers need. They require a TH2G which just adds another layer of latency and you lose a couple of FPS. I suggest at least the 660 and up cards which have Surround View, thus eliminating the TH2G. A friend of mine has recently purchased the Nvidia 780 and with 3GB of memory, he said it made quite a difference to the smooth operation of FS X.
I run my Mitsubishi ST projectors using a 4:3 ration to give a better vertical depth to my projection (given my throw distance limitations). The downside is that you do lose resolution since the 4:3 is achieved by blanking out pixels on the left and right sides of the 16:9 projected image. I am currently using Nthusim on 3 separate computers (that is, 3 separate instances of "single projector" Nthusim). Unfortunately the "single projector" version of Nthusim does not accommodate overlap edge blending....If it did this would work out perfectly in my setup since I would be overlapping the 16:9 aspect images achieving pretty much the total screen fill I have now. Other warping software does offer this feature but right now this is way down in my priority list.
Fred
QuoteThe downside is that you do lose resolution since the 4:3 is achieved by blanking out pixels on the left and right sides of the 16:9 projected image.
Apparently this is the case with some of the projector manufacturers on the 1080 units but not with BenQ. I'm doing a commercial installation using these projectors and will soon find out how accurate the info is!
Hi all im thinking of getting a single projector and the benq w1080st was my choice , i been looking in to this for quite sometime , now did i read somewhere on here the views are crap , immerse but crap views graphics , i run a i7 with a 660 ti nvidia graphice card thro a asus 278h 3d monitor views are awesome please tell me this is not right with a expensive projector or am i just reading this wrong , what is the best projector anyone is running , pics vids anyone ?> thanks Neil
Hello Neil,
That was me that comment and it is very much personal opinion. You are just not going to get the detail in any affordable projector that you get from a TV or monitor....its not possible today. Therefore I think the view in a projector in comparison looks like crap. Not crisp, more fuzzy. Pixels blown up. Lower contrast etc.
Then if you try to run 3 projectors off one computer and video card in surround view at 1080 each you will add stuttering and very low framerates. Again, crap...
That all said, one 1080 quality projector should still perform well if your computer is up to it. Projection definitely will give you a much larger view and many are happier with that than concerned about picture quality.
As stated in many other threads...try to visit simulators using both options and form your own opinion of what looks good and ismbest and most acceptable to you. What i termed as crap you might think is awesome....
Seeing in person is best way to decide. Dont shy away from projection only based on my comment in other words.
Good luck,
Scott
Hi Neil
I've played with PJ's and like Scott says, if you're more into immersion over detail then go for the projectors. If I had the money I'd invest in TV screens, probably going for 60" thin bezel models like Scott is using. I'm running older 40" screens but the detail, colour and clarity is superb. I tried the lower res PJ in my sim and found it hard to read the taxiway signs etc, not good at a busy airport on vat sim : )
At the end of the day it's your call!
Good luck
:2cw:
Hi XOrionFE & markfire , i went to a 737 flight simulator few months back my first time , the graphics where pants allright , emersion was fantastic , but i felt like you both say gutted at the graphics it was like going back in to to the dark ages for me , but looking on you tube at some of the guys with projectors in there cockpits they look great , i could only afford one projector at the mo but i did think about going for something like the benqw1080st or maybe the 3 lcd epsom 6100 version which people say is the dogs Knackers ;-) a little bit more expensive , Now when you say 3 tvs ive looked at the new lcd ones i have a 42inch lg for a tv i might try that as a test , whats everyone else using ? im using nvida 3d glasses and a asus 278h 3d monitor wouldnt you think these companies could make a projector that gives the same views as that does in this day and age ? Thanks for replies guys i think we need to keep this going .
I'm using 5x40" sharp HD TV's and Scott is using 60" thin bezel beauties.
Regarding your comments on PJ's, dont forget you'll need to sit in the dark most of the time as even the new generation PJ's still look washed out with any ambient light getting in.
I went in a 737 sim at Westfield, North London for a couple of hours and i believe they still run FS9! but yes the graphics were crap, although very fluid. If you still hanker for PJ's you'll need to get three the same and sometimes they are a bitch to colour match. Where TV's are pretty close out of the box.
Not trying to put you off PJ's but there's a lot to be said for TV's
Mark
Hi Mark , yeah i know what you mean , i went to sywell 737 sim , it was great for the actual feel of the being in it and the feeling of actualy flying , but i said to them about the graphics they didnt make alot of it , now im thinking 3 big tvs like you , and im thinking the latest tvs are coming down in price all the time soon hopefully 4k tvs will be cheap lol , or am i pushing the boat a bit now ya reckon ::)
Neil
ps whats best for large tvs lcd or led or plasma ? am looking on amazon now :huh:
thanks Neil
Plasmas give generally better blacks and better motion but they consume a lot more energy and get really hot. The motion isnt an issue for us as 60hz is more than fine for a flight sim. Good LED TVs with full backlighting can be justbas good with blacks and personally I think regular LED Tvs are fine. Tha blacks with any TV will blow a projector out of the water as projectors just dont do blacks well at all.
To me the heat and energy considerations make LEDs the winner in the LED versus Plasma discussion. Try surrounding yourself with 5 60" Plasmas and you will exit your sim "well done" after a couple hours....LEDs by contrast run relatively cool.
Hope that helps..
Scott
brill , so led,s it is then bugger the projectors lol :) you guys sure know ya stuff thanks alot
Neil
what make are your 60 inch ones scott , what they cost a piece , been looking lots of reviews about which is best with the lag ? thanks Neil
ps did try my 42 inch lg today big tweaked a bit looked good only a 6ohz one tho i bet the latest 200hz look good ?
Samsung 60" FH6003
This doesnt have Smart Hub, 3D or any extras since we dont need those features.
cheers scott am looking now , ps can you use 3d on a pc thro tv and flight sim ?
Neil
I suppose you could. I tried it with the PMDG Virtual cockpit one on a desktop and it was pretty cool looking though i couldnt sit through a whole flight that way.
Yeah 3d is very cool looks like a mirror and the veiws are so crisp , i have nvidia 3d glasses with my asus 27" 3d monitor it is fab but like you say it does take it out on your eyes untill you get used to it , i built up my eye time gradually , i can do a 3 hr stint now no probs , i might be blind one day thro it tho who knows lol . ps these big tvs arent cheap are they , im researching the lag time on big led tvs im learning something new everyday , :huh: