I positioned the major components to see what this would look like in relation to the size of the room. Plenty of room. Behind the components against the wall is a 3x5 table that will be a temporary workbench for everything from component and circuit soldering to woodworking and construction.
This was basically a set-up and inspection day. See what survived the trip during the move, what needs work, and what needs just a bit of cleaning. All of it needs rewiring so that will be a major task and I'll be ringing up Leo for another card or two down the road.
The chair needs major joint work for the aluminum/plastic laminate I created for the sides of the chair. It's all cosmetic, but looks like crap right now. The forward radio stand will probably be rebuilt, but I'm undecided about it this early in the game. It really should be rebuilt as it's about 1/2" too wide and the center bay has a lot of wiggle room after the radar is slid into the center bay.
That's all for now.
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And in its heyday:
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New Porter-Cable 1/2 18v drill and 6.5" circular saw arrived yesterday and batteries are charged.
$230 worth of lumber and screws ordered and to be delivered at 1000 tomorrow morning.
Well, here goes #2. Ivar, I hope it looks half as good as yours when I'm finished.
G'day Mike good to see you again! Rebuild is the task I started two years ago and I'm still no closer to having a fly, hope you are not out of action that long!!
Cheers Gwyn
Hi Gwyn! Hope you are well.
I hope this build goes faster than the first...
Good luck mike. Lots of photos!
Thanks John.
Here's the base deck. The dimensions are 6'-6" front width, 8' rear width, and 7' long.
It's rolling on five 3" cast iron swiveling casters. Built from 2"x8" and decked with 1/2" CDX.
The deck isn't fastened down yet. I want to add supports perpendicular to the 2x8 joists. My centers are
a little wide for 1/2 with a 40 Lbs psf live load. Most of the supports will be near the rear where you will
step up into the shell, and under the captain and FO seats.
The rest of the spacing is fine for the loaded area.
Man, does my back hurt.
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New MIP stand is nearly complete. The rest I'll have to wing it as I go along. I'm going to remove the bezel on the 19" WS monitor I'm using for the main instrument display to see if I can get a little more ADI under the Collins Pro Line bezel on the MIP. It will also allow the monitor to be practically flush with the back of the instrument panel.
You can see in the photos a lot of bracing underneath the MIP base. It actually slides over the top edges of the forward radio bay using two 1x3's and then a 2" deck screw is driven through in three spots on each side to secure the MIP base to the forward radio bay.
The outer legs are screwed to the 1x3 framework on the ends of the MIP base. THe end legs will be secured to the base deck tomorrow.
I'm going to fire up my new Lenovo Thinkpad sitting next to me. It came while I was uploading these photos and I haven't even turned it on the first time yet.
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Quote from: Boeing Skunk Works on February 05, 2013, 04:15:56 PM
It's rolling on five 3" cast iron swiveling casters. Built from 2"x8" and decked with 1/2" CDX.
Michael,
Based on my experience and especially considering the fact the platform is on top of what looks like very thick carpeting, the 3" casters are not nearly big enough. You will have a hell of a time moving the platform when you need to as it will end up being very heavy once everything is mounted on top.
I am also using 3" casters but on a concrete floor and it is hell moving it. It will be considerably harder to move on top of thick carpeting so you may want to replace them with larger casters if you intend to move the platform after all the hardware is in.
My 2 cents :)
Maurice
Thanks for the heads up, but it's too late now. I'm not picking this thing up again. I really don't believe I could now that the decking is attached.
I had planned on getting some handles and fastening two on each corner and one in the center of each side.
I guess I'd better get a couple of Come-Along's too. :laugh:
Still can't get used to seeing this full panel 727. Can't wait until it's flying again.
Thanks for whomever it was that sold this pnuematic brake handle to me for $30! Can't find them for under $60 now.
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Spliced in top rail for the FO side of the panel.
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This is 1/4" Plexiglas left over from cutting the number 2 & 3 windows in the last 727.
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I noticed something very strange today while trying to mount the fire rack. The damned MIP wasn't square. I don't have any idea how this happened. I checked every measurement twice (I'm fanatical about detail and accuracy), and it went together without a hitch.
After viewing yesterdays photos and thinking I just had the camera tilted a little bit, I started wondering if I didn't screw this up somewhere. I worked two hours this morning trying to find the error to correct it and cound not figure out where I screwed this up.
I made the corrections and the front, sides, top and bottom are now all plumb and square. The back lower edge on the FO side is out of kilter but it doesn't affect the rest of the main instrument panel or mounting the fire rack.
And that's what I started out doing today; mounting the fire rack. I didn't know it was going to be an all day adventure in straight and level to drive ten mounting screws to secure the rack to the instrument panel and the MIP base. On the plus side, all of the locating holes lined up with the instrument panel holes and top rail. I had to slightly modify the diagonal support arms for the fire rack, but that was no big deal. The lower mounting tabs just needed to be re-bent to reflect the shorter depth of this new MIP stand.
Now I have to make two new upper filler panels and a new glareshield. It's looking a little naked on the passenger side.
I have to say as much as I enjoyed the first build, I'd really rather just be done with this so I can start flying it. All this is for me is a means to an end.
Keep me motivated guys.
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Michael :)
Really good to see you are in business, and expanding to a FO side also. Watching this with great interest as I know you are a man of details. Looking forward to see this progress :)
Hi Ivar! Nice to see you again.
I'm undecided if I'm going to build it for looks on the outside. I might eventually get around to it, but like FDS, right now the outside is not as important as getting the insides up and flying.
Thanks for your reply!
Michael!!! Good to know your back and well!!! Just a few 727 sims added to our family since you were on break. We are still a very unique (not antique) group. Hope to see you and your new Boeing 727 "FLYING THE LINE" again soon!!!
Joe Maldonado
PROJECT 727
www.project727.com (http://www.project727.com)
http://www.youtube.com/user/project727flightsim/videos?view=0&flow=grid (http://www.youtube.com/user/project727flightsim/videos?view=0&flow=grid)
http://www.facebook.com/josephm.maldonado (http://www.facebook.com/josephm.maldonado)
http://www.facebook.com/josephm.maldonado# (http://www.facebook.com/josephm.maldonado#)!/Project727
Good to hear from you Joe!
I'm estimating it will be flyable in another month or so. I have to get structure built to support the overhead before I can even think about starting to rewire everything.
It'll be back better than before.
Frig Me... Look what the cat dragged back in. Awesome to hear from you again bud. Great to see your expanding the pit. Cant wait to see more pics. I look forward to your flight logs also.
Trev
Hi Trevor! Nice to here from you again too.
Sorry mate I haven't much more in the way of motivation other than my 727 plane on my desk at the Cathay Pacific Offices in Hong Kong.
What a fantastic job - I miss my big house in Australia where I could just build an extension to house a project like yours! Just wondering though, what happened to your previous project?
Jeff
I bought a house in another town and couldn't move it whole. I had to literally tear it apart and haul it out a piece at I time to the rubbish pile. I still have all of the smaller parts in the garage and all of the major pieces you see in the photos. Except the overhead. That is sitting on a table opposite the forward view of the MIP you see in the photos.
I didn't even save the Plexiglas I cut for the windows because they were out of spec to begin with.
Nice models. Is Cathay still flying the -200?
Just came from Leo's site and ordered another BU0836X and some encoders. I had another brand of card running the throttle and all of the functions on the throttle, but it is getting long in the tooth, so I'm upgrading it to one of Leo's cards. Screwing around with tiny DB25 pins on a nearly microscopic connector is not something I have the eyesight or the patients for anymore.
The other card from Leo is running the overhead and was running a couple of functions on the instrument panel that will now be transfered to the new card running the throttle and the rest of the control stand.
I have a $35 offer out for a new 1000' spool of 22 ga. wire on e-Bay. I haven't heard from the guy yet, but he sold three other spools for $35. He has a BIN price of $45 and shipping of $20.
Hard to believe I used nearly a whole 1000' spool of wire on the last build. I probably have less than 100' on the old spool.
This is going to make re-wiring the overhead and MIP and very neat and orderly job.
Yesterday I mounted the lower panel below the main MIP on the captain's side. I'll work on the FO side tomorrow. I'm still scrounging around for two more FO MIP panels, but all I've found is one so far. I haven't committed to the Plexiglas panel just yet for now, filling up the FO hole in the MIP.
As soon as I hear from Joe, hopefully before tomorrow, I'm going to cut a new glareshield from the 1/8" Luan I had delivered the other day. Then cut two new filler panels for under the glareshield, and then I can finally start the airframe construction.
I'm pretty excited to finally be having a complete cockpit. The neighbors are going scheiße!
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Hello Michael,
Looking good!
Can you describe what you will be using for the sim as far as a flight model? Systems interfacing? Etc.
Do you use Capt Sim 737 or something else? FSX or FS9? What is going to run your engine gauges and what do you interface your overhead and such to? FSUIPC offsets of some type? How does one interface and represent the 727 to your level.
Just curious.
Scott
I'll be using the same Boeing 727-200 Dreamfleet model that I used on the last build.
Unfortunately Goldman couldn't help me with integrating the engine stack from that flight model because of the way that it was coded, so I used (I can't believe I forgot his name) an engine guage from a flight model I flew for several years that used to be the standard of 727 flight modeling.
A-HA! Probst! That's his name! He used the digital/analog EPR & engine guages in his flight model and I was particularly happy about that. It's much easier looking at the EPR readout on an LED display than trying to judge if you are exact on your EPR for takeoff on a dial-type guage. For some critical TO operations you really need an exact EPR and close enough won't make it in the 727.
Out of Innsbruck at a field elevation of 1900MSL and a density of 2300MSL on some days, everything really has to be pretty precise. It's not like flying a 172RG out of there.
FSUIPC is used exclusively in this 727. Using a non-supported aircraft for logic leaves no alternative. That's not a negative though. Since Pete included his mouse function or whatever it is he calles it, it allows for unlimited FS command support, whereas before, if the aircraft developer didn't include an accessable command in the basic coding of the aircraft you were essentially screwed.
Pete changed all of that. This man should have a statue carved and erected in his honor at some significant FS site. I don't know where that would be, but it should happen.
If it weren't for Pete, my Sperry SP-50 autopilot would not work, nor would several other 727 type specific pieces of equipment.
No one else will support equipment this old. Everyone has to fly the latest and greatest when they don't even know how to taxi a Cessna. It is refreshing to know that Pete Townsend will still support.
Pete has forever changed how flight simulator command and control can be managed.
I've always seen that as a great advantage of the 727....since there is not a complex FMC with Vnav and GPS, etc you really have to know how to fly and fly well as well as understand the limitations for various conditions. What is also nice is that if you have the basic gauges and have all the functionality you need using FSUIPC you can keep things pretty simple.
btw- I have a whole small box of 100 ft spools of various color 22 guage stranded that I am not going to use. I bought it on accident prior to realizing I need 24 guage for the FDS connectors (22 guage insulation was just a tad to thick for the connectors). If you want it I will send it down to you absolutely free on one small condition ::)...some day when I am traveling down south you allow me to come see your beast in action. I would love to do a flight with you as copilot just reading checklists and learning a thing or two about the 727. Of course you are welcome anytime here as well if ever up in northern Illinois. Just PM me your address and I will send.
Scott
That sounds like a deal to me. If you want at least the shipping for it please let me know. This hobby ain't cheap and giving away stuff don't make it any cheaper.
PM on the way for my address.
Thanks!
Most of the limitations aboard the aircraft are sitting in the left or right seat. If you can see it, you can fly it. Sometimes even if you can't see it you can fly it. Minimums for CatIII are the only limitations in this aircraft. Sometimes, you will get an uppity controller on VATSIM or IVAO that doesn't seem to be able to route a non-RNAV or GPS direct flight and they can't fathom anyone actually having to do manual navigation and flying the aircraft.
Too young I guess.
You are more than welcome to fly the left seat. I can instruct fairly well in this aircraft and it's very easy to fly after a couple of hours. Approaches are a lot of fun. You'll be flying them like an old pro in no time. Just keep the power up all the way to the ground.
Hey, I received the wire and accesories today. I sure do appreciate it and thank you. When I finish my project I'll pass it along to the next guy that will need some.
Today a glare shield was born. What a PITA trying to lay this out from photos. And of course, nothing with a plan view. I believe it will work. Presently it's attached at seven points to the fire rack and the ends of the MIP stand while the wood glue dries on the cuts and bends I made to conform to the fire rack top rail.
I'll sand this in place, and then probably glue it again to make up for shrink, and then sand again before I remove it for paint and the left and right bumper pads, flouerescent lighting, and incandescent lighting. I need to make a right hand pad. And another ENGINE FIRE indicator.
I sure hope I cut the forward edge on this at the correct angle. I used 22.5° on each side. I couldn't say if that's right or not but it looks OK to me. That will be the window angle as well.
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Looks good Michael.
I know aeroliquidators had a few 727 glare shields up for grabs at a reasonable price a while back. Might be worth checking if you're interested.
I got mine off e-bay for $1!
Tor
I checked them and APHS. Nick never answers my e-mail. I used to think it was because of my mail server but since I switched to gmail, same as his, he still doesn't answer. I must have pissed if off one way or another but can't really think of anything I did or said.
If I need something from him I'll probably have to Paypal one of you guys here the money and have you buy it for me.
E-bay is a zero on glareshields too. No matter, I think I can make this work. Some of the dimensions are the same between the 737NG and the 727 glareshield and I used those while eyeballing and extrapolating the rest.
Instead of re-using my fluorescent fixtures I think I'm going with the super bright white LED strips. They look like the fluorescent tubes color temp but don't take up a socket on the strip, they last forever, and they don't hang down like the fixtures do. I'll still mount my incandescent bulb strips though.
You may have joined the "club". Doesn't answer me either.
I have a B727 Glare shield here if you need anything, let me know I can measure it.
Steve
Hey thanks!
I am curious as to how deep it is front to back from the fire rack to the windshield post and what that angle is on the back edge next to the windshield.
I spent a lot of money with him in the past. I guess my money is no good anymore.
From the edge of the glare to the window post it's 445mm. The back of the glare sticks about 20mm out from the fire panel, making the distance from the fire panel to the window post (where the glare meets the window post) 425 mm. You probably have to convert that to inches now! lol
I have nothing to measue the angle of the glare with unfortunately, but I built my windows based on 737NG measurements found on the net. The 727 glare shield fit perfectly.
I hope this helps. Feel free to ask if there's anything I can do to help.
Tor
Mine is about 10 cm deeper. Probably because I think my ends are longer as it curves from around the front. The angle still looks correct and it's not too late to cut more off. Better too big to start than too small.
Thanks!
Looks great Mike!!! I appreciate the new plug and play solutions these days however I always love seeing a project going together the old fashion way with wood and skill!! You've managed to accomplish more in a few weeks than I have in years :)
keep it up, Ill be watching this thread!
Mike L
Thanks Mike. The only thing plug-n-play about this 727 are the radio heads from OC.
Worked more on the glareshield today. I was really hoping to have paint on it yesterday but I was pretty certain that wasn't going to happen.
Filled it with autobody glaze, sanded smooth, two coats of filler/primer, and two coats of semi-gloss enamel. Might be dry by Easter. ::)
Anyway, turned out OK. Next I have to make and install new hardware and lighting. The camera I have seems to distort some images depending upon the angle.
I did end up cutting 10 cm off of the depth. It's pretty close to spec now.
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Looks great Mike. Could you tell me what the length of your fwd avionics bay is? And the height where it meets the TQ? I feel mine is too short and to steep for some reason. I'm thinking of redoing it. Going to start construction on my FE station soon anyway so, back to the wood shop!
Tor
Thanks,
11.5" is the usable 'height' of all of the bays. This was an eyeball build based on the installed equipment that I have some of when I was building it and extrapolated the measurement.
The height where it meets the throttle quadrant is 22.25".
I don't know if any of this is correct, but it's in the ballpark so close you can't really tell when you compare photographs.
Thanks. Mine differs a bit from that. mine looks a bit steep to me so I'll probably construct an other one. I'm going to fit a slightly larger monitor in it as well. Not very accurate for a 727, but very convinient. Did you use INS for navigating at all, or was it all ADF & VOR? I use INS quite a bit, especially for online flying.
Tor
I'm all VOR/ADF/DME. It's not much fun going direct anywhere in any airplane for me.
If I didn't have to fly the airplane and navigate, I don't see any point in doing it.
Try the RAK9 approach to 24 into Prague. You'll see why it's so much fun. Make you a better pilot too.
Then try it at night in weather to minimums.
No photos today, but I started assembling the monitors and computers again. I got the MIP and outside forward view to work correctly on the FS server machine. I moved the stereo receiver and two of the four speakers into the sim room and hooked them up.
Tomorrow I'm either cutting wood, or I'm wiring the new card Leo sent me the other day for the throttle and yoke. I ordered some encoders too for the Kollsman window, Altitude Alert setting, and whatever else I can use the third one for.
I'm sort of leaning towards the wiring. I'd like to at least take a few trips around the patch at Munich or Stuttgart before the day is over.
Mike,
WOW..just WOW!!
Darryl
Don't get me wrong, I love navigating and flying manually as much as anyone. I wouldn't build a 727 if didn't. That's how I learned to fly in the first place. The INS I use enroute for online flights. Easier to get clearance that way. SIDs, STARs and approaches are manual.
Yep, same here. Mostly in a 172RG or a Mooney M20C (old dog, manual bungee gear retraction and extension. Sure gives your right arm a workout shooting T&G's.)
I didn't usually have too much of a problem with conventional routing on IVAO or VATSIM for the most part. A lot of controllers were probably sitting there scratching their heads wondering why I didn't just fly direct instead of using airways for the most part.
Have to use a conventional SID and STAR too. That really seems to upset some of them when they had their traffic flow just perfect and I have to go to the VOR or NDB for the IAF or FAF if they weren't giving vectors that day. ::)
Well I never go direct anyway. Using the INS lets you file and fly the published routes to wherever you need to go in accordance with the latest AIRAC cycle. This does make life easier with regards to clearance and ATC. The waypoints are often overlays of the old airways anyway. The INS must be programmed manually, and you can only plot 9 waypoints at a time. Keeps you busy in the air once you run out of your initial 9 waypoints. I allways doublecheck my course along the way with VORs and ADFs. At the fix where the STAR begins it's all manual navigation. I quite like navigating with the INS. A lot of 727's had them as well.
Tor
I think a minimum of three if they were installed. I don't remember what the MEL said about them.
727's often had a double intallations. Transatlantic aircraft like the 747's and even the Concorde had tripple installations.
Anyway. I'm looking forward to seeing you sim getting back up. Judging by the craftsmanship of your previous build I'm sure it's going to look killer!
Back to flying, currently enroute from JKFK to KBWI
Cheers
Tor
Quote from: Boeing Skunk Works on February 27, 2013, 06:28:20 AM
Yep, same here. Mostly in a 172RG or a Mooney M20C (old dog, manual bungee gear retraction and extension. Sure gives your right arm a workout shooting T&G's.)
We have an M20F at our flying club with the Johnson Bar gear. Love that plane! Put 50+ hours in it last year.
Sort of like flying a Corvette.
Quote from: Boeing Skunk Works on February 27, 2013, 10:15:13 AM
Sort of like flying a Corvette.
:) Can't get the Vette to do 120 @ 5.9 GPH (20/20)
Never knew how economical the Mooney could be if flown lower than 24/24 until I did my club checkout in it.
Nice to have 10 hours in the tank too. Did a 7.1 hour leg from North Vegas to near Salina, KS in Decemeber......didn't drink much that flight...LOL
Quote from: Boeing Skunk Works on February 27, 2013, 09:37:07 AM
I think a minimum of three if they were installed. I don't remember what the MEL said about them.
Which soft do you use?
The Dreamfleet 727.
I'm not interested in adding it. I know there is a third party add-on for it.
Well what a PITA today was. I did get to fly it though.
Can't get the AP working. FS is randomly assigning switch functions when I try and program it through FSUIPC. And I, like an idiot did not write down the commands I used to get this damned thing to work correctly the first time, so it's back to trial and error.
I had much better luck with the throttle quadrant. Everything is working except the SB that I forgot to wire up in my enthusiasm of finally getting something to work again. I practically forgot how to do this after an 18 month break.
The throttle travel needs to be stretched out some. I'm able to move the levers only about half way and I'm already at 2.10 EPR on all engines. THis is just a proportioning problem I need to work out when I remember how I fixed it the first time.
About the only no-brainer today was the radios heads and the yoke, and the Newcastle Brown Ale I bought. The yoke was immediately recognized and still calibrated. AP release was re-wired to the AP though 24VDC, and the trim switches were working as advertised.
I took a quick trip around London, set it down on 27L and shut it down for today. I'll get back to the AP tomorrow.
One thing I've always liked about my sim is that if you get stuck or bored on something, there's always something else to work on. Run out of building materials, go wire something up for awhile. Tired of everything? Then just fly it as-is until you feel like more work.
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I found the problem with the AP. While I had the ground wires for each of the switches in a cabled bundle, I was trying to use a single ground wire for all of the functions like the old input card was able to take advantage of.
Not this card. I had to remove all of the ground wires from the ground buss I was using with a single wire, and extend all of the individual switch ground wires about two feet. Now each switch has a hot/cold for the new card. The only two switches I did not use the ground buss for was the Altitude Hold and Heading Select, which not surprisingly were the only two functioned that worked. The single ground used on the other switches was allowing all sorts of random functions to be programmed in addition to the selected function.
I haven't re-installed it or wired it to the card yet, but it shouldn't take too long once I get into it. The AP needed to be removed and the wiring mess cleaned up anyway. While the AP is out of the center control stand I can check the lightplate wiring for the radio selector panels and clean out the cobwebs.
I'd like to be able to afford to rebulb my AP lightplate while I'm working on it, but maybe some other time. It's pretty dim.
Hey Mike, long time. Good to see that you now have the space to go full size. I guess that means you'll have to build another seat. What are you planning to do for visuals now?
Henry
I don't think I'll build another. I'm going to hold out for some cheap seats in another year or so and buy a pair of them.
I'll leaning toward LCD TV's. Not on the scale that Scott has done, but probably in the 42-47" class of TV. Prices are getting cheaper every year on these.
I'll just have to move them closer to the shell windows to keep from seeing the monitor frames.
Mike,
I went with the 60" like Scott, but Plasma. The 50"s, at least in plasma, have been as low as $400 for 1080P at times. Might want to watch Fatwallet.com for sales.
Hi Mike.
Any progress on your re-build?
Cheers
Tor