Hello All,
after many months i still have a big problem with the correct aligment of my P3D visuals.
I use a 3 projector solution with 3 separate Windows in P3D. The warping and blending is done with Immersive View 2 pro.
The warping done with Immersive pro is perfect. I really spend a considerable ammount of time to align everything.
In P3D i have Setup 3 separate Windows 180 degree FOV = 3 x 60 degree, zoom Level in all Windows 0,41 etc. These values have been taken from Windowmaker tool.
In P3D while i am on the ground everything is fine.
As soon as i am in the air, i see the especially in the middle window, the horizon Level is way too low.
I can rule out any mistakes with Immersive View Software. The effect i see must come out of P3D.
It must have something to do with the projection method P3D uses when the plane is in the air.
Does anybody had the same issues and is there a solution ? Please see the Attachements for a clear Explanation. It is pain in the ass to try to land a plane like this.
Thanks
Andy
www.masterploxis.de (http://www.masterploxis.de)
I am using P3D V2.4, 3 x high def short throw projectors running off 3 x high end PC's on a 188degree curved screen.
I tried for months to get my views right, with Fly-Elise Immersive Display pro.
In the end, I emailed Nikola, who suggested that I try using their Calibration Pro Software.
You can download it for free to trial it.
I did that. I knew after a few days that this was the answer, so I bit the bullet and bought 3 licenses for my Display Pro software (1 for each of the PC's).
It took me a lot of trial and error, but finally I ended up with the output files that you can transpose into your P3D or FSX installation.
I also used wideview, which is what you configure to show the three separate views.
My scenery is smooth and nicely warped and merged. I am still working on the blending, but I'm very close to getting that just right, too.
Here is a video that I put up here a little while ago, when I finally worked it all out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLaDB0DMqaE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLaDB0DMqaE)
I've also got a bunch of test flights on my youtube channel there, showing the wrap around views.
Frank Cooper
Andreas,
In case you are not aware, I am a commercial dealer of the Warpalizer blending software and have been on the board for a couple of years.
I don't know much if anything about the Immersive software that you are using but from the pictures, your blended image on the curved screen is NOT right! I don't know if it's the ability of Immersive or you may not have done it correctly but to put it mildly, the image is very poor!
Not only is the horizon badly out of alignment, you also have the overlapped projector area not blended properly. There is bright area where the projector images overlap and that should not be there.
Your image should be seamless, have a straight horizon and look as though it is one picture across the entire screen. Both FS X and P3D have limitations to view areas over 135° but it is subtle and a fair amount of the distortion can be corrected by the blending software.
I doubt that Immersive produces a product gives you the results that you are showing but if it does, I think it's time to change software!
Just for the record
I have seen Immersive view pro at work here in Montreal during the setup of a commercial DSTD and once properly calibrated I can attest that the results are outstanding.
Quote from: jackpilot on December 18, 2014, 06:14:51 AM
Just for the record
I have seen Immersive view pro at work here in Montreal during the setup of a commercial DSTD and once properly calibrated I can attest that the results are outstanding.
I've seen some Immersive displays and I agree it is very good. That's what prompted me to suggest in my message that the blending in Andreas' pics was not done properly.
Hello Harry,
thanks for your reply. The image are not blended at all because this will be done after i foudn the correct warping settings. The symptom i am describing with the "egde" on the horizon just shows up when i am in the air and not on the ground with my plane. The main issue i think is not the warping and blending software - the issue comes from the wrong cmaera definitions i use in P3D. So i have the complete package of Immersive View pro and the Calibration package - so next thing i am going to do is to try the calibration module...
And yes - sorry for posting a misleading picture without correct blending setup. My main concern is the edge on the horizon while in air.
Cheers
Andy
And for the record, I've used both blending software, I'm currently using Immersive Display Pro and for the first time I can say I'm happy, and everyone that attended WFT2014 noticed the difference.
Yes his settings according to the video needs calibration but since Immersive Display is so user friendly, I'm sure he'll have it running perfect in no time.
Yes I'm an ex-Warpalizer customer and happy about it, no comparison.
Great choice Andreas, Cheers.
:2cw:
QuoteAnd yes - sorry for posting a misleading picture without correct blending setup. My main concern is the edge on the horizon while in air.
Cheers
Andy
Until you blend your image, you won't know if the problem will remain or not.
QuoteYes I'm an ex-Warpalizer customer and happy about it, no comparison.
Great choice Andreas, Cheers.
:2cw:
Guess that quality is in the eyes of the user :-)) I've had high end commercial users tell me that they have tried all the image blending software out there and Warpalizer does the best job.
Harry,
I'm not sure that your opinions are relevant nor necessary here.
The guy has bought his software and was asking for help, not opinions on other software.
As I said to you, earlier, in emails, mate, you don't need to hire anybody to fix your problems. You have all the software. If you have got to the point you are at, now, then fine tuning is where you will find your solutions.
It's also a matter of reading throo the manuals that come with the software and asking questions, such as you have done, that will get you to a finish point, that you'll be happy with.
Frank Cooper
Hello Frank,
i had a look at your YouTube Video and i think you really have a 99% percent perfect warping and blending. The main reason why i hestitated to use the calibration module was - i thought i need to dismount my complete Setup. But as i found out in the Manual that there is the possibility to do the calibration without a camera and the laser Thing.
So i'll get started to calibrate the visuals and i am sure after some time i will also have a satisfying result. I'll post my results...
So merry Christmas to all of you and we keep in touch.
Cheers
Andy
www.masterploxis.de (http://www.masterploxis.de)
If I may...
A "correct" warp and blend has NOTHING to do with
the software you use or is a P3D/FSX "problem",
It's all about technique. So let's not bash anyone or any companies.
There's no in between when it comes to visuals,
If it's not "right" it will never look right as Andy is
realizing now.
Jack saw one of my 200FOV visuals first hand in Montreal
so he opinion is unbiased.
Andy, I can't help you remotely, but email me your
location and if I'm ever nearby?
Nat
QuoteHarry,
I'm not sure that your opinions are relevant nor necessary here.
The guy has bought his software and was asking for help, not opinions on other software.
Frank,
If you read my e-mails carefully, you will see that I was not trying to sell Andy any new software but instead indicating that his blending was not done correctly to get the results that he showed in the pictures. Well, that was very correct since he eventually told us that he had not blended yet!
I even stated that the Immersive product was good and also indicated as well that other high end users in the field felt that Warpalizer was their choice after a comment was made that there was no comparison between Warpalizer and Immersive. Nat, who has a wealth of knowledge in this field, stated that the kind of blending software used doesn't make any difference to the end result but how the software is used does. How very true!
So Frank, please don't say that my opinions are not welcomed or relevant here. They may not be to you and that is your choice but it's statements like yours that only serve to start controversy. Andy thanked me for my comments and that is what is important to him.
People can use whatever software they want and that is their choice. As Nat said, it's how they use it that will give them their final result.
Hey Guys,
Its the Holidays, and I can clearly see this going off track pretty quick. Lets not bicker, or twist words, clearly there is a difference of opinion here, but lets just push on and see if this guy can get some help, cause clearly he needs it by the looks of his images.
Instead of comparing one software to another, lets just help him get it fixed if possible.
Surely with the EXPERTS of both Warping software's active in this thread, I am sure you guys can help him!
Trev
Hi Andy
Visuals are the very first thing I did, before I built 'either' of my two sims. I new this had to be right before I spent tens of thousands on the sims.
I bought Infocus PJ's, PC's etc. After weeks of tinkering It was never right, there was always something annoying! I was in the same boat as you mate - not happy with my visuals.
Disclaimer:
Gentlemen, my post here is aimed at Andy, please do not interpret the following to be directed at anyone else, ok? - thank you.
I found a 'PERFECT' solution by having Nat (Crea) come and do my visuals.
Nat's techniques are 'MAGIC', he is a very clever guy.
Like Nat said (BTW, Hi Nat, hope you are well mate?) perfect visuals have NOTHING to do with software or FSX/P3D; you have to know how to set it all up - Nat DOES know.
My advice would be for you to e-mail Nat on a Proffessional basis and have the Master come and do the Visuals for you.
Good luck
Sent from my iPhone
The problem the original poster has is trying to create a 180deg FaoV picture with only 3 views of 60deg each.
Imagine each view is created by a camera, now the front view of course tilts up and down when you pitch up and down but the side views are created by cameras that actuall look 60deg to each side of the view, for them to horizon will tilt differently, this is easiest visualized if you imagine 3 cameras with 90 degrees field of view when the side cameras actually look 90deg to the side of the plane.. Now if you pitch up say 30deg. In the front view the horizon goes down forming a bow that's lowest in the middle of the screen and highest towards the outsides, but the side views then horizon is a straight line actually going up towards the middle of the 3 windows and down towards the outside edge!
In X plane immersive display has a plugin that can create up to 6 windows. I for example use 3 Projectors but 5 Windows of 42deg FOV in xplane for a total of 210 FOv and with more and more windows the kinks in the horizon get less noticeable. The max in the version I have is 6 but I choose 5 for performance reasons
This will happen if you have perfectly warped and blended your display to make the perfect picture on your curved screen.
Quote from: meatbomber on December 20, 2014, 02:19:45 PM
The problem the original poster has is trying to create a 180deg FaoV picture with only 3 views of 60deg each.
Imagine each view is created by a camera, now the front view of course tilts up and down when you pitch up and down but the side views are created by cameras that actuall look 60deg to each side of the view, for them to horizon will tilt differently, this is easiest visualized if you imagine 3 cameras with 90 degrees field of view when the side cameras actually look 90deg to the side of the plane.. Now if you pitch up say 30deg. In the front view the horizon goes down forming a bow that's lowest in the middle of the screen and highest towards the outsides, but the side views then horizon is a straight line actually going up towards the middle of the 3 windows and down towards the outside edge!
In X plane immersive display has a plugin that can create up to 6 windows. I for example use 3 Projectors but 5 Windows of 42deg FOV in xplane for a total of 210 FOv and with more and more windows the kinks in the horizon get less noticeable. The max in the version I have is 6 but I choose 5 for performance reasons
This will happen if you have perfectly warped and blended your display to make the perfect picture on your curved screen.
I have to say that's 'nonesense' with FS or P3D (I have no clue about XPlane)
I have 3 windows and 210 FOV - my visuals are 100% perfect.
A few facts:
Not only is possible to create OVER 200
degree FOV with 3 windows in FSX , P3D AND XPlane,
It is possible to output a true 180FOV with just
TWO windows.
It was hard to get the whole screen in the one shot,
but here are two different examples of recent 180FOV visuals
with 2 windows:
Nat
Quote from: Nat Crea on December 21, 2014, 02:44:36 AM
A few facts:
Not only is possible to create OVER 200
degree FOV with 3 windows in FSX , P3D AND XPlane,
It is possible to output a true 180FOV with just
TWO windows.
It was hard to get the whole screen in the one shot,
but here are two different examples of recent 180FOV visuals
with 2 windows:
Nat
Nice Visuals!
2 windows ..2 projectors or 3 ? ???
Well then I guess the original poster and i have the same problem and are looking forward to be educated as to how to do it then :)
I'd like to know the settings of the previous posted pics.
The attached pic shows the worst part of the screen, the corner artifact needs still to get worked out
Quote from: Andrew 737 on December 21, 2014, 12:07:37 AM
Quote from: meatbomber on December 20, 2014, 02:19:45 PM
The problem the original poster has is trying to create a 180deg FaoV picture with only 3 views of 60deg each.
Imagine each view is created by a camera, now the front view of course tilts up and down when you pitch up and down but the side views are created by cameras that actuall look 60deg to each side of the view, for them to horizon will tilt differently, this is easiest visualized if you imagine 3 cameras with 90 degrees field of view when the side cameras actually look 90deg to the side of the plane.. Now if you pitch up say 30deg. In the front view the horizon goes down forming a bow that's lowest in the middle of the screen and highest towards the outsides, but the side views then horizon is a straight line actually going up towards the middle of the 3 windows and down towards the outside edge!
In X plane immersive display has a plugin that can create up to 6 windows. I for example use 3 Projectors but 5 Windows of 42deg FOV in xplane for a total of 210 FOv and with more and more windows the kinks in the horizon get less noticeable. The max in the version I have is 6 but I choose 5 for performance reasons
This will happen if you have perfectly warped and blended your display to make the perfect picture on your curved screen.
I have to say that's 'nonesense' with FS or P3D (I have no clue about XPlane)
I have 3 windows and 210 FOV - my visuals are 100% perfect.
OK, now could the experts tell how the different tilt issue for 3 windows is handled exactly?
I use Immersive Display Lite 2. My projectors are Optoma GT720 with projection cone ~ 69 degrees so my view is roughly 206 degrees. All my windows definitions you can see in thread
My testing of 3 windowed views (not 4!) approach http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=3361.msg26448#msg26448 (http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=3361.msg26448#msg26448)
My visuals are perfectly aligned on the ground and in straight flight, however when I am in the bank or nose hard up/down, I see the same issue - the horizon is bent differently in 3 windows. Here is the example:
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-yqQnjPFCAns/VJctCxEWb7I/AAAAAAAABBM/a5K71iANI3g/w941-h560-no/horizon_bent.jpg)
This is the screenshot from my own flight video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H-u4l24k70 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H-u4l24k70)
According to this thread: http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23199&p=137629&viewfull=1#post137629 (http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23199&p=137629&viewfull=1#post137629)
Quote
>...i have noticed that even if image is perfectly aligned ...there are some issues especially on the runway lines are discontinuous and so far they match but are distorted after the matching line..and in the flight when the plane banks - the horizon distorts too
...I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you mean.
FSX produces standard perspective projections. Straight lines in space will be straight lines on the screen. Unfortunately, this means that these lines will be at different angles when viewed in different directions. Here's a thought experiment - think only of the horizon for a moment, and imagine that the plane is in a level banking turn. On a perspective projection, the horizon will be a straight line at an angle. But on a true spherical or cylindrical projection that wraps 180°, the horizon will be horizontal but low on one side, horizontal but high on the other side, and angled in the center. Overall, the horizon will trace a sinusoidal curve across the image. For a visual, take a look at the screenshot I included in the first post of this thread, showing a 360° view. This image is composed of 27 perspective-projection slices, so if you take a close look at the horizon particularly at the 90° point (the peak on the right side), you'll see that it is still composed of straight line segments.
If your edges line up, you're done messing with the .flt file. There's nothing more you can do from that side. There is software that corrects for this by allowing you to apply a custom warp to correct the perspective map to a spherical map in addition to the standard screen alignment warp, however this software typically retails for many thousands of dollars.
Can you comment, is that correct? I understand that software
wledzian is talking about is ImmersaView WARP.
I still do more building than flying and I did not deal with image perfection yet.
Nick
Hi Guys
No Artifacts
No Bent Horizons
Any Angle of pitch Or bank
210 degrees FOV
Superb Blend 'Day & Night'
And my Visuals are 'Perfect' Guys - seeing is believing.
Nat done em both here in the UK.
He came, He saw, He Conquered!
I was going to give up on my pit if the visuals were 'Afflicted' in 'ANY' way but they are Perfect.
Nat does have 'Special' techniques and EVERY setup he does (I believe) is different but he gets the same result - perfect visuals.
Quote from: jackpilot on December 21, 2014, 09:24:24 AM
2 windows ..2 projectors or 3 ? ???
Hi Jack
My Cessna Pit has two PJ's & two windows.
Amazing work Nat!
Quote from: Andrew 737 on December 21, 2014, 01:54:28 PM
Hi Guys
No Artifacts
No Bent Horizons
Any Angle of pitch Or bank
210 degrees FOV
Superb Blend 'Day & Night'
And my Visuals are 'Perfect' Guys - seeing is believing.
Nat done em both here in the UK.
He came, He saw, He Conquered!
I was going to give up on my pit if the visuals were 'Afflicted' in 'ANY' way but they are Perfect.
Nat does have 'Special' techniques and EVERY setup he does (I believe) is different but he gets the same result - perfect visuals.
Well, I am happy for you and Nat, congratulations, apparently job well done, however your message has zero useful information and does not address any questions.
Are you willing to share your FSX views and camera definitions?
@ Jack, I can hear your brain ticking... :)
The 2 Window/2 Projector Visual only really works for "small" screens.
The examples I posted were a GA Sim and a Helicopter.
@ Nick, Andrew is using my multi-channel set-up with 3 dedicated computers/wideview for visuals, so his camera/view configs and FLT are of no use if you are going the Single PC route.
Secondly no need for congratulations, I install visuals for a living, no luck or guessing involved when clients are paying good dollars as you can imagine.
Although I am happy to separate fact from fiction (ie. my previous comments) and help "guide" builders on these forums, I run a commercial business so I wont be offering free visual services.
Thirdly, Immersaview WARP does not contain magic configs, I know, I use it.
Finally...before anyone reads into this as WideView being the miracle cure....no its not LOL, just lots of practice...
Nat
Well I guess the special Magic is a proper cylindrical projection software?
Immersive display doesn't do that, it makes a "flat" acreen fit a curved surface, but the picture you throw on it is still made for a flat surface. I.e my setup is like stitching 5 very large flat screens together hence the optical distortions, if Nat has software that instead calculates what the view should really look like if projected on a cylinder (xplane has this feature but I haven't worked with it yet) he will get no distotions of course :) he is doing it the proper way then!
Just stitching multiple flat views onto a curved screen will give you what I and flying-fox see.
Quote from: Flying_Fox on December 21, 2014, 06:00:21 PM
Quote from: Andrew 737 on December 21, 2014, 01:54:28 PM
Hi Guys
No Artifacts
No Bent Horizons
Any Angle of pitch Or bank
210 degrees FOV
Superb Blend 'Day & Night'
And my Visuals are 'Perfect' Guys - seeing is believing.
Nat done em both here in the UK.
He came, He saw, He Conquered!
I was going to give up on my pit if the visuals were 'Afflicted' in 'ANY' way but they are Perfect.
Nat does have 'Special' techniques and EVERY setup he does (I believe) is different but he gets the same result - perfect visuals.
Well, I am happy for you and Nat, congratulations, apparently job well done, however your message has zero useful information and does not address any questions.
Are you willing to share your FSX views and camera definitions?
Nick
I'm really (sincerely) sorry you find my posts of zero use. I guess the problem lies in that you don't want to hear my advice.
I was very explicit in my first post - I recommended contacting Nat on a 'professional' basis. I beleive this is 'SOUND & HELPFUL' advice, the same I give to everyone who requires visuals.
Whilst these forums are a really great place to come (and sincerely they are) your issues are with the 'Configuring' of 'YOUR' personal screen - settings here are personal and of little use to share. In fact I would go on to think others settings would exacerbate your problems and would make little sense.
We all spend a lot of money on our sims, a lot, but it beggars belief, time and again, visuals are the last thing builders do - this is 'THE' most important area of our projects; this should be number one priority in all our budgets.
On a final note I paid 'Good' money for my visuals and as a result I value them very much indeed, they are the best possible - This is why I exclusively Recomend NatVis and No other reason.
Good luck Nick (again sincerely said).
WARNING!!!!!
If people don't stop with the (Useless this, or YOUR WRONG) BullSHIT I am going to close this thread. And Yes, I Said BullSHIT. Because thats what it is. This is totally against our EULA, and I will not tolerate it.
If you have nothing positive to contribute, Keep your comments to yourself. This thread could be very helpful, and I am not pleased with the way it is going.
Trev
This will not solve your display problems but might relax your brain cells and let you enjoy your Sim during the holidays, whatever your visual system is :D
Here is a picture of my -one short T.projector-one flat screen- FS9 visual.
Zero distortion and happy camper even.
I will eventually make it better but not a priority.
Happy holidays Guys.
OK, this is exactly what I expected. :angel:
We all know that it is possible to achieve virtually perfect 180 or 210 degrees (or more) cylindrical (or even spherical) views using 3 or more projectors.
Here is my view of the situation.
FSX (and P3D) was never specifically designed with for multi-view projection in mind.
FSX was never designed for other that flat-view projection.
Because of this FSX has view distortions being projected on cylindrical screen. While the picture projection can be aligned/corrected by warping software, there are still geometrical distortions inherited from flat perspective projection (most noticeable is angled horizon on side views at certain conditions) that cannot be compensated by just warping. There is some information that this is due to absence of "correction the perspective map to a spherical map".
Existing warping software (like Immersive View or NTHUSIM apparently does not have this mapping compensation for such geometric distortions.
However we are informed of commercial simulators appearance, using Immersive View and other warping software and apparently they have no those geometrical distortions.
Looks like it is being compensated by additional sofware and views setup ("multichannel").
There is no way it can be done on a single computer projecting three views. There are two main reasons for that.
One is that FSX relies on one processor core to render the picture, second is that that single processor core these days barely has enough power to run 3 views with more or less acceptable frame rates.
So, the perfect visuals with FSX can only be achieved using three (or more) separate computers using WideView or similar software. Yet, WideView is only an intermediate software making the syncronization and by itself cannot resolve any of these issues.
The distortion issues are addressed by using a special "technics" or "magic" as referred by some. My guess is that each view is split to sub-windows, and that decreases the distortions to acceptable level. In addition by giving the power of separate computer to each view it allows higher performance.
Apparently these secret "technics" involve the additional commercial software and approaches, so they will never be shared on the public forums.
This is why when I asked questions trying to get technical guidance to what the roots of geometrical distortions issue are (note, I was not asking for turnkey solution) I did not get straight answers.
Instead, I got personally attacked.
Especially interesting is - why some people think they can lecture me on "what my problems are"??
Claiming to have two perfectly working simulators, but for 18 month presence on this forum and 110 posted messages did not share any details or gave any useful advises. :huh:
So, please consider this my last technical input on this forum. :2cw:
So long, and have a Merry Christmas.
Nick
Hi Nick
When you say this is your last technical post on this forum, I sincerely hope that you meant his "thread" and not "forum". I for one have valued your input over the years and would wish that to continue. I understand your frustration, but please do not let a disappointing response influence you to that extent.
Have a good holiday
Regards
David
Hi Nick, I also value your your input on this forum, but I agree with your decision, when it comes to certain topics and suppliers I better not comment, sad.
Happy holidays !
Sorry Guys, I tried to stop it before it got out of hand, and I guess people are offended anyway.
Thats too bad. Nick, Sorry to see you go, But you did contribute to the issue as well with your "Zero Useful information comment" Like I said, peoples comments can always be hurtful and we try to stop that before it happens. One person makes a bad comment, and another has to stab back, and so on.. Its unproductive. We can't catch everything and I thought my warnings would be heeded.
In this case, because you were offended and clearly this thread is not going anywhere positive like I wanted it to, I will lock it. "The straw that broke the camels back I guess"
Trev