Hello All,
Ok....here is my continuing problem with which I thought I solved months ago.
My setup is using the 836x joystick board for flight controls, throttles, engine start, tiller steering, lift spoilers, and numerous switch selections.
Some time ago, I had an issue with my 836x board overheating (occasionally) to the point where is burnt itself out. (It actually got so hot it fried).
I received much help on this forum, and thought that possibly my Open Cockpit USB dc servo motor boards were finding an additional ground through the 836x thereby causing it to overload and heat up.
Since this time, I have eliminated the OC boards in replacement for Leo Bodnars CanBus arrangement for all 16 of my mechanical engine gauges. )I still use one OC board for flap indication only).
So here is my problem...with my brand new 836x board, everything worked perfectly for months until yesterday when it started to overheat again :(
This time, however, when the simulator is powered up, I can tell something is array when the number 4 engine begins to start all by itself with no selected inputs. The board begins to heat up, but I am able to remove the USB input eliminating it from its power source and allowing it to cool down....when I push the connector back in...everything is fine and I can run the sim for hours with no problems.
This only happens once in a while.....
The 836x board is connected to a hub which also has outputs for the rudder, nav's 1 and 2, and the MCP. (see pic).
I have checked all the connections for shorts, all of the start switches I am using to input to the board are aircraft specific, and they seem sound.
any thoughts?
I think I might have found a solution.....
It seems that the 836x board does not like to be connected to a hub that also has a number of other USB outputs.
By connecting the board directly to the computer, there seems to be no problems so far....
-Jim
Hey Jim,
I am curious about your electrical connections and how everything is plugged in? Is the USB Hub power plugged into a power strip along with other items, also where is your PC plugged into? My thinking is you have another powered device on the same outlet run somewhere else that gets turned on for some reason, like a bathroom light, hair dryer or anything really.
Thus, you are running items all on the same circuit (are you on 110v or 220v?) and at some point you're reaching the circuits amp threshold, but not tripping the circuit breaker. And, remember a 15amp only provides a usable amp of 12 or thereabouts. So, in other words, I think you board is getting overheated via the power circuit heating up to the threshold for whatever reason.
I can attest to this happening over the years and provide pics of overheat damage to power strips that get brown stained from heat, but still work, only ready to start a fire (I removed them already). Additonally, I've fried boards this way along with computer power supplies, so I suggest you check your circuit loads. If this is the problem, you should add a few extra circuits...
By the way, what if you have plenty of circuits, but the same thing still happens? Check the circuit breakers contacts on all of those being used. I once had a circuit breaker that caused my septic tank pumps to stop working, but the circuit breaker did not trip off. It looked perfectly fine and if I turned it off and back on the pumps worked fine for awhile, until a change in amperage occurred, it would shutoff, yet the switch was still on. I replaced the breaker with a new one and the problem never happened again.
This might not be your problem, but if I were you I'd checked all my power outlets and circuit usage.
John
Hello John
I have contacted leo Bodnar and he seems to thing there must be a short on one of my analoge devices as the 836x board has no current limiter to the chip therefore it would contjnue to heat until it blows.
I will have to go over them one at a time again I suppose.
the usb hubs in question run off two separate power strips.
Jim
@Blueskydriver
Hello John...i disconnected everything and went through all the pots, rotary and sliding and found no issues. I then checked all the switch connections and found one rocker switch to be suspect.
It is connected to the 836x board and controls the on/off function of the avionics (avionics master switch 1).
These swtiches are OEM 2tp1-3 types and have many years of service...however they do wear out.
This particular switch when tested was giving me a momentary on and off function when selected to "ON".
I have an ohm meter that I can set up to give a continuous high pitched 'beep' when the connection is closed...when I select this switch ON, the meter sort of growls a bit and you can faintly hear a tone until you wiggle the switch around its axis and then it will make the contact for a continuous beep.
If you brush by the switch or even gently touch it...it will lose the contact and be somewhere between open and closed, causing the ohm meter to go nuts again.
Could this create enough havoc on my 836x board?
I am thinking that if this switch is sitting at a semi shorted out position, it might cause the board to draw current and overheat.
what do you think?
-Jim
Quote from: Mach7 on February 17, 2017, 09:31:23 AM
.....
I am thinking that if this switch is sitting at a semi shorted out position, it might cause the board to draw current and overheat.
what do you think?
-Jim
Hi Jim,
Not really. The switch when closed causes current to flow through a short and a pure short would theoretically allow infinite current (at least up to what the power supply can handle).
I don't have a schematic for the board to look at but it would have been designed to limit the current through any switch connected to it.
The switch being in some intermediate state could be confusing the hell out of the microcontroller causing all your odd behaviors though. It would be a good idea to change it and see if it sorts out your problems.
Thanks for the information Kyle.
I was kinda hoping that was the cause....oh well...back to the drawing board.
Leo did say that the board has no current limiting capability. However the switch may be the cause of some erratic behaviour, but like you said...probably not an overload/heat of the board.
I also checked out all the on/off switch connections to the board and they are all sound.
I checked all the pots, and here are the values I came up with:
Nws rotary pot - Hitec brand - left = 0.400 kohms center = 2.3 kohms right = 4.3 kohms
Lift Spoiler - sliding pot - ALPS RS601150k - retract = 44.1 Kohms extend = 19.9 Kohms
Thrust lever (one) - sliding pot - ALPS RS601150k - idle = 48.1 Kohms full throttle = 12.1 Kohms
Flaps - sliding pot - ALPS RS601150k- flap 0 = 36.9 Ohms flaps 18 = 9.80 Kohms flaps 24 = 23.2 Kohms flaps 30 = 37.4 Kohms and flaps 33 = 44.5 Kohms
Aileron rotary pot - taken from stripped down microsoft joystick - left = .459 Kohms center = 7.00 Kohms right = 10.0 kohms
Elevator rotary pot - taken from stripped down microsoft joystick full back = 7.00 kohms center = 3.1 kohms full forward = 1.87 kohm
Silly question, but have you checked the wiring from the board to the pots?
I had a similar issue on a DU brightness pot, the pot tested fine, but i'd somehow pinched a wire under a screwhead, shorting it to ground.
Nope...not a silly question at all...one of the first things I checked.
I know it was pointed out that a bad switch contact would not create my aforementioned problem....I just hooked a multi meter onto the bad switch and when selected it ON.
I am getting an ohms reading of between a zero load and close to 200 ohms, (as the switch contact is just making the connection).
I have checked an exact switch type that is servicable and I get a .6 ohm resistance when the switch is closed.
Back to my original thinking...why could this high resistance on the switch not be creating my problem?
-Jim
Quote from: Mach7 on February 18, 2017, 06:50:13 AM
I know it was pointed out that a bad switch contact would not create my aforementioned problem....I just hooked a multi meter onto the bad switch and when selected it ON.
I am getting an ohms reading of between a zero load and close to 200 ohms, (as the switch contact is just making the connection).
I have checked an exact switch type that is servicable and I get a .6 ohm resistance when the switch is closed.
Back to my original thinking...why could this high resistance on the switch not be creating my problem?
-Jim
Why don't you just try changing it out? :)
I did actually. (change out the switch...actually just disconnected it altogether)..
According to Leo, the only way that this board would overheat is due to an overcurrent situation. He suspects a short somewhere, or a pot resistance level out of tolerance. These 836x boards have no current limiters installed, so if you don't catch it quickly the board will just overheat and fry.....like the last board I had installed.
The fact that it happens so intermittently leads me to the only problem I have found so far in the setup...and that was the avionics 1 switch. This switch sometimes makes a firm close contact and sometimes it does not. Sometimes the switch contact will close and then vibrate to a position between closed and open, creating a lot of noise in the system.
I spent the last day checking and double checking all the wiring and the remaining switch connections and contacts....everything checks out so far.
The pot values have been sent to Leo, (I actually tabulated them here as well), so I am waiting to hear back from him sometime next week.
It is so imtermittent that I might not be next to the board next time it overheats in the event the switch was not the issue.
So far the board has been operating fine...however I have said that before as well, and then all of a sudden it spikes and overheats.
James,
there is one thing that springs to mind is an oscillation starting up
randomly. An oscilloscope would be your friend here. Checks on supply lines and analogue inputs to see if any other signals are happening at the same time as overheating.
Les
Quote from: Mach7 on February 18, 2017, 06:50:13 AM
..
I am getting an ohms reading of between a zero load and close to 200 ohms, (as the switch contact is just making the connection).
...
Back to my original thinking...why could this high resistance on the switch not be creating my problem?
-Jim
Ohm's law.
I = V/R
(I = current in Amps, V = voltage, R = resistance in ohms)
From the above formula you can see that an increase in resistance is a decrease current.
So using your resistance numbers and using 5V as that is a typical supply voltage:
I = 5/200 ohms = 0.025A or 25mA
I = 5/0.6 ohms = 83A.
As you can see, with the switch closed properly, you'd have much higher current through it than with it at 200ohms.
Typically the switch would be connected to the microcontroller with a 10k pull-up resistor to the 5V supply, so that that resistor prevents the large currents that would be present through a switch. Some microcontrollers have this resistor internal to them.
So no the 200ohms will not directly be drawing a high current.
That said, the intermittent contact could be confusing the microcontroller. If its internal pullups are being used, maybe they aren't being configured properly when you have the problem.
Hey Jim,
Sorry for not seeing your reply to my post before now... So, after you did everything (checking connections and etc), and went directly to the computers USB port, you're still having this issue? I thought when you hooked it directly to the PC that took care of it? If not, how long was it before it showed the same problem again with being connected to PC USB port?
I do understand you're having the poor contact with the switch, but let me stick with USB port a bit longer, by asking this:
1. How long is you USB cable from the card to the PC (do not use hub for now)?
2. Is there anything that could be laying across the USB cable?
3. What type of USB cable is being used (brand)?
4. Are there any other power source cables near the USB cable that could be causing an RF interference?
5. Is the card's ground based on the USB connection, if not where is the ground source?
I wil have a few more questions after I do some reading on your card...
John
Okay, I read up on your card and here are a few more questions:
1. Knowingly, you checked each wire and made sure they're connected, but is there a chance that a switch is connected backwards in the case of a ON-ON switch?
2. Are you by chance using two buttons together on one port?
3. Are you using 24 Gauge wire for all your connections?
4. Since the grounding from the card ports goes back to the USB, I believe that it uses the USB casings ground as a common ground.
5. Are the switches in use metal bodies or plastic covered bodies?
6. The bad Avionics switch in question, is there any chance that it was grounding out in the location it's mounted at, meaning you're mounting the switch to a plastic or metal backing panel?
7. Have you thought about disconnecting everything and going the long way of plugging them in one at a time, and checking the operation, then plug in the next one and so on?
8. Lastly, are you using any diodes to make sure the 5v current only flows in one direction for each connection to the card (this would be overkill for every one, but would prevent any back flows)?
In my opinion, you're USB cable could be shorting out inside the cable itself causing the 5V to go down both sides (positive and negative) of the card, causing the overheat and burnout. Also, I am leaning on the idea that you're getting a cross ground somewhere else. In other words, the grounding of a switch is hitting metal somehow and causing the resistance to go erratic or an over voltage (if it's picking up power by something next to it like an led or bulb of some sort.
I want to add this, but I cannot guarantee the result; you could soldier a shielded 24 gauge wire to the outer metal casing of the card's USB port and soldier the other end to a standard ring connector, then place that ring connector under one of the PC's case screws. Thus, you would pickup the common ground. HOWEVER, if the card's micro controller is reliant upon the PC's USB grounding coming off the PC motherboard, I might not do that. Still, the USB port ground from the motherboard comes through the power supply cable, which is picking up the earth ground through the electrical outlet.
Surely, some might think this is a far stretch, but I had this issue (being erratic or burnng out) with a couple of different type of cards at the same time and wasn't until I grounded the use location to the earth ground that the problem stopped. Case example was my throttle assembly housing; it was Rob who suggested doing this and once I did, no more problems... Heck, he is a guy you should PM about this...he might know what your issue is, as I think he used Bodnar cards back in the past.
Best Regards,
John
Jim,
You said your switches are OEM 2tp1-3, so OEM is like Honeywell or what brand is it?
I attached a link to a Honeywell pdf switch guide:
https://sensing.honeywell.com/index.php?ci_id=50382&la_id=1
Please look at the second page and tell me if it's the same type of switch(s). In your case, it is a 2 pole 1, 2, 3, screw connector...if so, then make sure all your wires are connected correctly based on the keyway location (shown on the switch; the pdf file shows this).
Again, this is to checkout your wiring to make sure a hot wire is not running back into the ground connection, since you're using rockers that work like ON-ON switches.
This is a long shot, but you never know...
John
Hello John,
Yes...I did connect the 836x directly to the computer and have had no problems so far...I am just very suspect that the problem will rear its ugly head again soon. I have gone down this road before, feeling relieved that I have found the problem after hours of sim time, only to find that that I am back into a board overheat situation again.
To answer some of your questions;
1. How long is your USB cable from the card to the PC (do not use hub for now)?
The cable is about 5 feet in length from the PC to the 836x board.
2. Is there anything that could be laying across the USB cable?
No
3. What type of USB cable is being used (brand)?
That is a good question as I have long since discarded the packaging. Needless to say the cables are of high quality.
4. Are there any other power source cables near the USB cable that could be causing an RF interference?
Yes...there is a power bar close by that has outputs (5 volt) to the visual monitors, plus an ethernet hub to send information from the server computer to the 7 client computers for outside visuals.
5. Is the card's ground based on the USB connection, if not where is the ground source?
The cards ground is indeed based on the USB connection
1. Knowingly, you checked each wire and made sure they're connected, but is there a chance that a switch is connected backwards in the case of a ON-ON switch?
I don't think so. The only switch that would have an on-on connection would be the landing gear selector lever. The landing gear selector switch has two positions of up and down, these are both closed connections, however are programmed through FSUIPC. I have never had an issue with the landing gear selector switch as it was the first one to be programmed into the board and has been true and tested prior to my problem.
2. Are you by chance using two buttons together on one port?
No
3. Are you using 24 Gauge wire for all your connections?
All wires are of 22 gauge as per leo Bodnars recomendations.
4. Since the grounding from the card ports goes back to the USB, I believe that it uses the USB casings ground as a common ground.
I would agree with you on this point.
5. Are the switches in use metal bodies or plastic covered bodies?
The 2tp1-3 switches incorporate a plastic body.
6. The bad Avionics switch in question, is there any chance that it was grounding out in the location it's mounted at, meaning you're mounting the switch to a plastic or metal backing panel?
I would have to say no. Although the switch is situated in a metal backing panel, there is no possible way that it would be grounding out on the frame or otherwise due to the plastic construction of the switch body.
7. Have you thought about disconnecting everything and going the long way of plugging them in one at a time, and checking the operation, then plug in the next one and so on?
Yes...I have actually done this a number of times. Everything works perfectly and no problems are present. The only variable here is the suspect switch.
8. Lastly, are you using any diodes to make sure the 5v current only flows in one direction for each connection to the card (this would be overkill for every one, but would prevent any back flows)?
No I am not...but that might be a good idea regardless of my current situation.
Leo also suggested to check the analogue inputs for any that are showing very low resistance ( sub 20 ohms ) and add a low value resistor if needed. If you note the resistance values that I have tabulated on my earlier post(s), all values exceed this level...so I do not think this is the problem area.
The switch in question is a honeywell product and is definitely and off and on contact.
I have talked to Rob about this problem and he initially thought it was the Open Cockpit boards that were finding a ground through the 836x board. He suggested isolating the OC boards from the 836X by utilizint a separate power supply and also soldering a ground from each OC USB input back to the independent 5 volt power supply, (the one used to power the boards, not the USB hub).
This did not alleviate the problem, but I still believed the OC boards were the cause of the problem.
I employed Leo to modify an additional set of engine gauges to operate under his CanBus arrangement, thereby eliminating the OC boards and possibly my problem.
This of course worked perfectly up until last week when the board began getting warm again...therefore the OC boards were not the solution to my problem.
I have since disconnected the 836x output from the hub, (the one that also included the vhf nav heads, rudder pedals, and mcp), and placed it directly to the computer USB output.
Since this time everything has worked fine....however being still suspicious, and in no small part an email from Leo advising that the only way this board would overheat was due to an overcurrent situation....he suggested checking values and looking for shorts. The only thing I found was that avionics switch...
So I am at this point so far.
-Jim
Jim,
About to head off to bed, but I thought about this, where is your card mounted and is it isolated from other cards and/or are the soldier points/pins on the backside of the card above any possible contact points?
Also, have you thought about checking each port for the output voltage of 5V? I believe you checked for continuity and ohms already, but to check for voltage you'd have go about it a little bit different. First, you disconnect the negative wire from the port that a switch is plugged into, using your multimeter, you would place the red lead (better if you have alligator clips) on that negative wire from the switch. Next, you cut a small section of 24 gauge wire for a jumper and connect one end of it to the black lead of the meter, then connect the other end into the negative port on the card for that switch.
In other words, you're connecting your meter as an inline tester, and you set your meter to the 20 volt range (or whatever the setting is closest to 5V, but as along as it's above 5). So, once you trigger a switch for that particular port, it should see 5V when turned on. Even if you have an ON-ON, you should still 5volts either way you press the switch because you are measuring on the negative or the return. This would take a while to do because you would have to move through each port one by one, moving the jumper and the red lead to each negative side of any port.
Why do all of this? Well, you do this to check and see if you're getting any over voltage spikes while checking each and every switch. You can wiggle and flip the switch back and forth a few times to see what the voltage is doing. Yes, just checking the continunity is basically the same, but that only checks the switch, while checking the voltage inline still requires the card too be hooked up and working, thus it'll help detect any spikes or drains.
Lastly, will you please post a pic of where your card is mounted (showing the card in it's natural working state).
John
Hey Jim,
I was typing while you were...lol, so you answered a lot in between this time. So, based on your answers, I think it is/was the hub and as you said it all seems fine now. My thoughts are this:
1. What is the model number, brand, USB version number (could be 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 or 3.0 and output amperage on the hub (for amp output look at the power supply)?
2. Just based on the other items connected too the hub, can I assume they're drawing power for 7-segment displays and leds as well? If so, your hub is asking for a lot of amps and your power supply for the hub is providing it, but there might be a coefficient occurring with heat build up to the port where 836X card and your getting an over amperage situation.
I mentioned before about using power strips and how they turned brown or how one item that does not need a lot of amps is plugged into one that does and the low amp starts having problems or gets overheating too the burnout stage. Thus, I believe your hub is/was doing this and the 836X card is the lower amp item connected to the hub, but getting more then what it needed because of the other items on the hub.
3. Leo is saying what I am saying in the over current which is going to be based on amps; although, it could be voltage, but you'd have to be pushing some serious over voltage like 12 volts or higher.
I also agree with what he says and that is why I posted in my last post about going through the inline test with each port/switch, which would take some time, but worth it in the end.
However, if it's working normally now being that it's connected directly to the PC, I would leave it be and only exchange the bad switch you found. Still, like any good sim builder you want some reassurance. Therefore, you need a USB Hub that has over current protection, but it would be nice to find one with an overheat protection switch with a probe that you could attach to the card, then if it reaches a certain temp, it would trip the switch and shutoff power to the hub itself. I have been surfing too find something, but might have to wait until tomorrow...getting sleepy and in bed already...ipad about to hit my face by dozing off...lol.
John
Hello John,
The card is mounted on four small rubber washers so that is sits above the 6 x 10 inch mounting board.
The card was clean when it was installed, that is to say no metal particles or shavings on the bottom of the board that would cause it to short out.
My board set up is such that I have stacked terminal blocks sitting adjacent to the board with all the wires running from the board to the connections on the blocks. The terminal blocks are color coded and numbered to correspond to a position on the 836x board. This allows me to simply connect a switch, pot, etc to the terminal input without having to disturb any inputs that have already been attached to the board.
I have not yet checked each port for voltage. This would apply to only the pot outputs anyway as the other board connections are basic switch functions. (I have attached a pic of my board inputs and outputs).
Some additonal answers to the below questions;
1. What is the model number, brand, USB version number (could be 1.0, 1.1, 2.0 or 3.0 and output amperage on the hub (for amp output look at the power supply)?
The hub is a TRENDnet TU2-700. Here are the particulars;
Compliant with USB 2.0 and USB 1.1 Specifications
-Fully Forward and Backward Compatible with USB 1.1 Devices
-Supports all USB speeds: High-Speed (480Mbps), Full-Speed (12Mbps) and Low-Speed (1.5Mbps)
-Switches to the Peripheral's Highest Supported Speed Automatically
-Supports up to 127 USB Devices
-Supports Suspense and Resume Operations
-Compatible with Windows 7/Vista/XP/2000/ME/98SE, Linux and Mac Operating Systems
-USB 2.0 A-B cable included (60cm /2ft.)
-Supports Plug & Play and Easy Installation
Specs
-Manufacturer Trend Net
-Power Consumption: 500mA (max) per port
-Power Adapter: 5V DC, 2A External Power Adapter
-Max. Devices Supported: 127 (daisy-chaining with other USB hubs)
-LED Indicators: Power
-Dimensions: 80 x 50 x 10 mm (3.14 x 1.95 x 0.4 inches)- See more at:
2. Just based on the other items connected too the hub, can I assume they're drawing power for 7-segment displays and leds as well? If so, your hub is asking for a lot of amps and your power supply for the hub is providing it, but there might be a coefficient occurring with heat build up to the port where 836X card and your getting an over amperage situation.
This could be a distinct possibility as well. I do have my MCP hooked up to the same hub which in turn has 7 segment displays.
3. Leo is saying what I am saying in the over current which is going to be based on amps; although, it could be voltage, but you'd have to be pushing some serious over voltage like 12 volts or higher.
I also agree with what he says and that is why I posted in my last post about going through the inline test with each port/switch, which would take some time, but worth it in the end.
However, if it's working normally now being that it's connected directly to the PC, I would leave it be and only exchange the bad switch you found. Still, like any good sim builder you want some reassurance. Therefore, you need a USB Hub that has over current protection, but it would be nice to find one with an overheat protection switch with a probe that you could attach to the card, then if it reaches a certain temp, it would trip the switch and shutoff power to the hub itself. I have been surfing too find something, but might have to wait until tomorrow...getting sleepy and in bed already...ipad about to hit my face by dozing off...lol.
Again John, thanks for your input. It is very helpful and I think that by removing or disconnecting the switch and tapping the 836x board directly to the computer, bypassing any hub(s), this might make the setup happy. Only time will tell.....hopefully Leo will chime in tomorrow with some additonal information, I will post something then
Thanks again!
-Jim
@Joh, Bob, Les, and Kyle,
Again guys thanks for your inputs. I received an email back today and here are some of the preliminary thoughts...
You were all correct, the malfunctioning switch would not create an issue with the board as it is nothing more than a poor contact.
When they reviewed the pot values, they felt that the resistance of the flap selector at zero may be a bit too low, (it was 36.9 ohms) and suggested bringing it up to 200 ohms with an inline resistor.
John, you were onto something in your last email when you said;
Just based on the other items connected too the hub, can I assume they're drawing power for 7-segment displays and leds as well? If so, your hub is asking for a lot of amps and your power supply for the hub is providing it, but there might be a coefficient occurring with heat build up to the port where 836X card and your getting an over amperage situation.
The last thing they mentioned is that there may be a possibility of backfeeding thought the USB connection causing the board to overhead. The backfeeding may be caused by another device that contains LEDs....I believe this is what you were saying in the text above.
I have two HUBs, each one contains a device that has LED's..the OC boards on the first HUB and the MCP ont he second, I have had issues with the board at each of these locations thus far.
Having said this, everything is working fine so far with the 836X connected directly to the computer,
Time will tell!
-Jim
Hey Jim,
That's great news! By knowing that this is possible coming from Leo, it helps too really narrow it down; hopefully, your system will be stable without your card overheating anymore.
I did think about a fall back protection method and that is too use an aquarium (also other uses) type heat sensitive relay. Basically, the unit has a probe that you could place on the card and you would set up your temp range, then the device would shutoff the power to the card via the powered hub or at least reduce the amount because you would be turning the hub power supply off.
Here is just one example:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pre-wired-110V-220V-F-C-Thermostat-Temperature-Controller-Control-Relay-Sensor-/381157645765?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/Pre-wired-110V-220V-F-C-Thermostat-Temperature-Controller-Control-Relay-Sensor-/381157645765?_trksid=p2141725.m3641.l6368)
There are many different types, but most are relatively inexpensive, so you could try one or two types to find the best one.
After reaching this point of helping you, I never thought of the uses of a temp power outlet relay before, but now I am thinking of all sorts of ideas, so thanks for giving me the opportunity too help out...
Best Regards,
John
Hello John,
Actually just received another email from Bodnar Electronics..I must have misread his last text as he says that the possible feedback could occur if the board is also used to power LED's...so he feels the board overheat is probably not associated with the HUB or its associated equipment.
Having said that, I still think the HUBs had something to do with it...time will tell if I am correct or not.
-Jim
Hi Jim,
Okay, no worries about misreading his email, as I still believe it is related to the powered hub. I searched Leo's website too find a amperage requirement for the card and there is no data on it, nor in the instructions manual.
Being that your USB Hub puts out or can put out up too .5 amp or 1/2 of amp per port, that makes me think it has been the issue all along. Knowingly, the card uses 5 volts, but it must have an amp range and a limitation. Could you ask Leo what that is for this paticular card?
Furthermore, it does say in his Instruction Manual to plug it straight into the PC and there is no mention of using a powered hub; however, he really should state if a powered hub can be used and what is the limitations of using one, if any...
Best Regards,
John
John,
I agree, I think the powered hubs were doing something with the board causing it to act this way.
With respect to getting exact values, I have tried to ask these questions, and understandably they are a bit hesitant to release specific information.
I do know that they upgraded the board in June last year and added additional input protection, so maybe this is not a just a "one - off" issue.
-Jim
Hello John,
Looks like the problem is back again,
I sent Bodnar Electronics an email, here is the body of the text;
Hello Michael,
Ok...I thought my problem was gone but it's back again, however I have a bit more information.
So at present the 836x board is plugged directly into the computer, bypassing any powered hubs. Whenever I power up the computer, I usually place my finger lengthwise across the board so I am touching all three chips in order to check for heat buildup.
When I powered up the computer, the board began to heat after a couple of seconds following the windows screen booting up. In fact the the only chip on the board that seems to get warm/hot is the first chip inline right next to the usb plugin on the board itself. The other chips do not seem to get warm...at least not what I can tell as I unplug the board quite quickly when the situation begins to happen.
Now with respect to the above paragraph, when I initially turned the computer on, the screen "froze" and displayed "starting widows" whilst at the same time refusing to boot up. I waited for quite a while until I realized the computer needed to be reset, When I did reset it, the system booted normally, however once the windows home screen was established, the aforementioned overheat occurred.
This computer boots quite quicky, and this is the first instance I needed to use the reset button. I am not sure if the cause was the 836x board, however it seems more than likely that it was.
Having said that, it would be good information to know which ouputs that that chip controls so I can better troubleshoot my devices.
Regardless, I immediately unplugged the board, (pulled the usb cable out), and the board cooled rapidly. I then re-inserted the cable, and the board was fine. I rebooted the computer, and brought FS9 online and everything worked perfectly.
I ran the board for a good hour, and no overheat situation was present, and all pots and switches worked perfectly fine.
I tried to reset the computer a couple of times, still everything was fine and the board was nice and cold.
Another thing that crossed my mind was the USB cable itself, I believe it to be a 2.0 cable as it has a white colored plasitc end on the USB-A connection, and I am plugging it into the port on my computer that has a female colored 'blue' input.
I am not sure if that would cause a problem for the board or not, however it still works fine from that port when it is not heating up.
Any thoughts?
-Jim
Hi Jim,
This is rather amazing, too hear that a card is getting overheated during the computer's POST or power on self test. The card is designed for 5v and 500ma, so it should not be drawing anymore then that.
Did you do the firmware update for the card? Not sure this will change anything, because it says the firmware is a name changer for the card when seen in the boot loader. I suggest you do it just too be up too par.
How about trying this, unplug any other add-on cards or USB devices, as well as get a new USB 2.0 cable. Then start the computer and see what happens. If your card heats up during the POST again, it has too be the 0836x card, I would think. However, since we're still troubleshooting, I would try unplugging everything from the card itself (no connections) and then just plug in the USB for it straight too the computer (no other cards) to see what happens during the POST.
You could really go all out and do this: reconnect one connection to the card one at a time, then shut the computer down and not just a restart. Then keep doing this until the overheat starts up. As for the first microchip inline with the USB port being the only one that heats up, can you look at the PCB.dwg to follow which parts of the card are controlled by that chip? If for example, it is for certain connections, then I would track those ones and see if there is an issue with one of them.
Here is the link:
http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836X/BU0836Xsmt_RevD.zip (http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836X/BU0836Xsmt_RevD.zip)
Couple of other things, and here is why. If you had one card overheat and go bad already, I keep thinking it has too do with one of 3 likely problems: the USB power source, which you moved the card from the hub to directly to the PC, the USB cable itself, or any connections hooked up to the card. Now, I know you checked them all before, but two questions: do any of the switches, pots or buttons have metal casings, if so Leo's instructions say to ground the metal casings; the second question is, I know you already unplugged everything and plugged them back in one at a time, but did you shutdown the computer each time? If not, do that this time. Oh, did you change out the USB cable from the other overheated card? I think you said that you did, but I just wanted too make sure.
Lastly, do you have anything plugged into +5v output from the card, either as a power source for something else or by mistake maybe? Here is a link to the pic:
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=popup_image_additional&pID=180&pic=3&products_image_large_additional=images/4BU0836X_04.jpg (http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=popup_image_additional&pID=180&pic=3&products_image_large_additional=images/4BU0836X_04.jpg)
look at the blue highlighted area, unplug anything from that port for now.
Best Regards,
John
Ps we'll figure this out sooner or later Jim. I am more intrigued by this now, so I want too see it to the end. :)
Hey Jim,
What type of motherboard do you have and what is the model make and number? Also, have you made any firmware changes to it?
John
Hey Jim,
I looked at your pics again, and just to clarify for my sake, here are a few questions:
1. You show a large connection breakout board in front of the card, so are your wires going from the card to the breakout board then the switches, pots and etc, or is this breakout board for something else?
2. If this breakout board is a part of the setup, I am wondering about it's connections. Not to say it cannot be done this way, but I myself would make straight connections from the switches and etc to the card.
3. By chance are any of the switches, pots or etc being used to do multifunctions via hardware? In other words, is anything else connected too any of the switches, pots and etc, that might cause issues. There are examples of people doing this where a switch could be sending the same single to two different places; one example, a switch is used to turn on the aircraft batteries via software and it is hard wired to turn on a computer supply to light up back panels and etc.
4. I see a rather large barrel shaped device connected to the right side of the card, what is this used for? I see it in the breakout board pic as well, is that a meter of some sort?
5. The mounting screws used to mount the card to the position it is in seem a little big, did you have the last card located in the same place using the same screws? I ask because I am thinking about something touching the pins on the back of the card...a long shot, but you never know.
Okay, I will check back with you later...
John
Hi John,
This is the only time it started getting warm during the computers post self test. I did have the board get hot as well once as I was shutting the computer down as well, so maybe there is a connection there somewhere.
There is no firmware with the card, its basically just plug and play.
My next step is to do as you say. Remove all connections and then try them one at a time.
With respect to the pots. All have metal casings, however they are mounted in a wood holder and are very well isolated from additonal ground sources.
The card that you show on your link must be the updated 2016 version. Mine is a 2009 design that I purchased about a year ago. Again this makes me suspect as Leo advises the new card(s) have extra protection hardware, whatever this means. Also the old cards, or the one that I have, does not have a dedicated 5 volt output.
To answer some of your question;
I looked at your pics again, and just to clarify for my sake, here are a few questions:
1. You show a large connection breakout board in front of the card, so are your wires going from the card to the breakout board then the switches, pots and etc, or is this breakout board for something else?
The breakout board is a bunch of terminal blocks stacked one ontop of another. One strip contains the + side and the other the – to the board. In the case of a pot, one connection is the power, one the control, and the other the ground. I designed it this was for ease of connection as I built my sim up and added more inputs.
2. If this breakout board is a part of the setup, I am wondering about it's connections. Not to say it cannot be done this way, but I myself would make straight connections from the switches and etc to the card.
I have checked and double checked all the connections on the board and they all go where they are supposed to.
3. By chance are any of the switches, pots or etc being used to do multifunctions via hardware? In other words, is anything else connected too any of the switches, pots and etc, that might cause issues. There are examples of people doing this where a switch could be sending the same single to two different places; one example, a switch is used to turn on the aircraft batteries via software and it is hard wired to turn on a computer supply to light up back panels and etc.
I actually tried this a long time ago with the board, but it did not work. So all inputs to the board just operate that specific function.
4. I see a rather large barrel shaped device connected to the right side of the card, what is this used for? I see it in the breakout board pic as well, is that a meter of some sort?
That barrel looking device is just a pushbutton switch used to introduce some additional functions and see how they work before wiring back to my simulator.
5. The mounting screws used to mount the card to the position it is in seem a little big, did you have the last card located in the same place using the same screws? I ask because I am thinking about something touching the pins on the back of the card...a long shot, but you never know.
The scews that you see are very small and do not even touch the sides of the drilled holes in the board.
I have now sort of backtracking my steps...that is to say what what was the last item I connected before the board started giving me problems. Although not documented, the nosewheel steering is the only one that sticks out in my mind.
I have since disconnected the steering pot and tried the sim last night after I emailed you. It worked fine last night, I will try again before I go to work and see if the results are the same.
-Jim
My mistake John,
I do have that 5 volt output on my board, however I have left it blank with no input or wire going to the terminal block assembly.
--Jim
Forth boot up now with the nose wheel steering pot disconnected and so far so good
Hey Jim,
Looks like you might be onto the problem; hopefully, this is it. Consequently, I was thinking of another method to prevent random overheat/over voltage situations. The USB cable could be spliced and you would add in a fuse holder to the +5 volts wire, then place a +5 volt 500mA fuse in the holder; thus, if the card tries to pull more power then that, the fuse will blow and save your card.
Of course this is all piece of mind actions that you normally don't need too do, but there are a lot of builders who do this in one form or another (hint, back lighting panels and power sources). So, once you find the true problem, you could still add the fuse just in case of future issues...
John
John
That is actually a good idea, it would also give me a huge piece of mind and would allow me to troubleshoot the problem without fear of damaging the board.
Can u actually buy such s small fuse? And once i cut the cable, how do i determine tge 5 volt wire?
Likely it will be the red wire.. Usually USB Ports are standard cable colours... In essence you could buy a usb A Male and USB A Female connector and just make a joiner yourself on a small PCB.
(https://i.stack.imgur.com/Hy09b.jpg) and add your own fuse
Hey Trevor,
Thank you for replying, I had some things come up today that I couldn't respond right away...
Jim, go to Mouser Electronics and lookup 500ma inline fuse or a 500ma circuit breaker. Something like this here:
http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Eaton/BK-GDA-500MA/?qs=OJFHm2hVE4G8P0JfaXsBEQ%3D%3D&gclid=CKzT5Oy1pNICFZS6wAodVzcGMA (http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Eaton/BK-GDA-500MA/?qs=OJFHm2hVE4G8P0JfaXsBEQ%3D%3D&gclid=CKzT5Oy1pNICFZS6wAodVzcGMA)
That one you soldier to the wires or a small PCB board, you would have to unsoldier to replace it.
The other way is look for an autmotive fuse holder and buy the fuse to fit it. Here an example of one:
https://www.delcity.net/store/AGC-Panel-Mount-Fuse-Holder/p_800419.h_800420.r_IF1003?mkwid=se6pKVrgO&crid=38094426869&mp_kw=&mp_mt=&gclid=CLz4y-icpdICFY66wAodPrEBFw (https://www.delcity.net/store/AGC-Panel-Mount-Fuse-Holder/p_800419.h_800420.r_IF1003?mkwid=se6pKVrgO&crid=38094426869&mp_kw=&mp_mt=&gclid=CLz4y-icpdICFY66wAodPrEBFw)
John
James,
The chip thats heating up is the microprocessor. One suggestion is to place a
multimeter on the 5v line of the bodnar board and when its o/heating check
to make sure voltage is not above 7.5v absolute max. Should be about 5v.
Although i think the other chips would heat up as well.
I cant see from your wiring, do you use shielded cable for the analogue inputs?.
Best practice is to use shielded cable.
If you are going to start removing cables i would suggest starting with analogue
inputs.
Are you noticeing this o/heating only on switch or can it happen after the unit has been running?
Just my 2c worth
Les
I Did a lot of reading on this subject last night to see if I could help you out. Apparently the USB standard is to have some sort of built in resistors into the cables to prevent your USB's from drawing too much power. Have you tried replacing your usb cable with a different one?
Cheapy Cables neglect the standard to save costs..
Hello guys.
Again thanks for all of your input.
When i get home i will change out the usb cable.
I am confide t we will solve this problem
Jim
Hello Everyone,
I have not changed out the USB cable as of yet, however I did disconnected the nosewheel steering pot, and for the past week, after I get home from work, I have been booting up the computer for 5 mins or so checking the 836x board for heat , (as this problem usually occurs on initial start up).
So far everything is working normally, however I am not breaking out the champagne as of yet.
The nosewheel steering pot is the only variable as it is from an RC Servo motor and would be the only odd man out when it comes to pots fixed to my sim.
Although the ohms seem reasonable, maybe there is something I am overlooking with this particular device.
Anyway, I will keep checking and testing and update when I have more information, good or bad.
Thanks again guys for your help so far
-Jim
Hi Jim,
Glad too hear things are getting narrowed in... So, I must ask why are you using a RC Servo for the nose wheel steering? Are you motorizing the nose wheel for simulated movement (thinking like the trim wheels here)?
I always thought the nose wheel steerng handle did not move on it's own, but it only moved when the pilot uses it too steer during low speed taxi, just prior to TO and right after landing.
Since I am majorly into RC planes, I can tell you almost for sure that has too be your problem; assuming, you're powering the servo from the 836x card. I see this in RC a lot...you have a bad servo and it keeps drawing the max voltage/amps from the receiver battery, killing the battery pretty quick too only end up in a plane crash (dependng on which servo it is). Also, if the servo is not bad, but it's trying to hold a position for whatever it's hooked up to and that hold position is right at the torque/load rating, you'll be sucking a lot of amps through the card.
Just to check, what is the model name and number of the servo?
If you believe it is this servo causing the problem, but you still want to use it, just place a fuse between the + side of the servo and the + side of where you've made the connection to card. Make sure the fuse voltage is only 5volts and .5 amp (500ma), that way you stay within the limits of the card.
Best Regards,
John
Hello John,
I should clarify...
I am only using the pot from that servo motor (Hitec). nothing else.
My original engine gauge set up was using the RC chip and DC motor to modify my mechanical engine gauges using Open Cockpits DC servo boards, this left me with a handful of potentiometers. as I was using the existing pot in the mechanical engine gauge for operation.
The tiller steering is connected to one of these extra pots for nws operation.
-Jim
Hello Everyone,
For troubleshooting, I have since disconnected my nosewheel steering pot, and the problem seems to have gone away.
This pot was removed from an RC servo, so it was always the 'odd man out', my gut always suspected this to be the issue as the other pots where the sliding type, or the rotary type removed from an old joystick controller.
I have checked the pot and the ohms reading seem to be fine, but who knows.
I started my computer over 10 times yesterday trying to duplicate the board overheat, and it stayed nice and cool.
I also moved the 836x boards USB input directly to the computer. This caused some unexpected issues with windows start up, (the "starting windows" message would appear and the windows logo above it would freeze as it was forming).
In conversation with Jetline systems, (the manufacturer of the computer), they advised too many USBs plugged directly into the computer would most definitely cause this issue, and advised moving the board back to a powered hub...which i did and the problem went away.
I will do more testing today, but so far so good!
-Jim
Just an update on my 836x overheat problem,
By removing replacing the pot for the nosewheel steering, the problem has vanished:)
Although the RC servo pot seems compatible when checked with an ohms meter, there must be something that gives the board a bitter taste, or maybe the pot itself was suspect.
Nonetheless, since my last report everything is working fine. I replaced the pot with a spare one I had from an old microsoft joystick teardown and everything is working within tolerance.
On another note, I have recently had some computer boot issues, and in conversation with Bodner Electronics this seems to be a known issue with the joystick board.
There is a fix using an additional USB output upgrade, however I have relegated to unplugging the board and then plugging it back in after the boot process is complete.
This seems to work fine for now.
I want to thank everyone on the forum who gave me positive input.
My advise to 836x users is stay away from pots taken from RC servo motors!
So this is a bit of a pivotal moment for me, as simulator progress was stopped until a solution could be found to this problem....
So for now, I only have about 4 more overhead panels to interface and the rest will be cosmetic, and maybe some upgrades along the way.
-Jim
Ok...thought I had the problem fixed but I guess not.
At least I have an idea when the overheat starts!
Fired up the sim tonight, just sitting idle for half an hour or so...all of a sudden engine 4 begins to start all by itself...i check the board and it starts getting hot.
I unplug the board..let it cool, then plug it back in.
Engine 4 shuts down and everything is back to normal.
Ran the sim for an hour and a half with no board issues.
Now Bodnar electronics and everyone else is telling me that a bad or shorted switch will not cause the overheat.
The chip set that is getting warm supposedly is the control chip for the pots.
so.....WTF!
I have been chasing this for over a year now...and its getting the better part of me.
My only solution now is a total strip down and rebuild using brand new pots, switches and wires.
-Jim
I should also point out that, in reviewing my troubleshooting notes, it is not always engine 4 that begins to start prior to the overheat.
once the elevator trim started to move full aft while the board began to overheat.
In other words, something is producing a signal to the computer in order to activate a flight control, or function that would otherwise be controlled by the 836x board prior to to the overheat.
Once the board is disconnected, and reconnected, everything is back to normal.
I dont think this is a computer issue, as I had the same symptoms with my previous computer.
Hello Guys
I did some additional troubleshooting tonight, and I think my problem may have something to do with the computer itself....
Let me try and explain.
When I first bring flight sim online, everything works as per normal. I check all the inputs to the 836x board by cycling the spoilers, ailerons and elevators, and nose wheel steering etc..
After a short time, anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes, and without moving any lever, switches, or doing anything with the computer...engine 4 will start and the board will begin to get warm. I then disconnect the board, reconnect it, cycle the the engine back to fuel off, (to shut the engine down), and everything is back to normal.
The interesting thing here is that it seems as though the overheat occurs when the computer is 'dormat', or rather the aircraft is sitting at the button of the runway with all the engines off and not moving.
I first thought maybe the screen saver was interfering with something, but I changed the time from 5 minutes to 400 minutes and when I brought flight sim back online, engine 4 basically started right away with the associated board overheat.
I reset flight sim again and the same thing occurred, with engine 4 starting right away.
I thought I was on to something, however on the third attempt I could not get the board to overheat.
I subsequently reset the screen saver to 30 minutes.
So...here is what I know for sure. When engine 4 starts all by itself, the board will begin to overheat, (more specifically the first computer chip on the board located next to the usb plug in). The other two chips stay nice and cold.
When the USB plug is removed and re inserted, the board does not continue to heat, (and I can now select thrust lever 4 to on and off and shut the respective engine down).
I am not sure yet if this aforementioned sequence of events will happen a second time without stopping and starting flight sim, (following the first overheat and USB plug cycling manuever).
It seems that the board does not have any issues when the simulator is "in motion"...that is to say, when the computer is 'active' and you are in flight mode, or moving, there does not appear to be any overheat issues....The issues seem to stem when the simulator is not in motion.
I am thinking there is something that the computer is doing after flight sim is online that is causing this issue....but the question is what....
Does this make any sense to anyone?
-Jim
Jim,
Do you have another analogue input board?. If so temp connect some pots so you can still basically use it and configure. Then see what happens. It seems you dont have to wait long before it faults.
Les
Hello Les,
If you mean another 836x board?
I do have one, but it overheated and fried a long time ago from the exact same problem.
At least now there is some consistency associated with the overheat...ie computer idle....engine 4 starts automatically...board overheads...
There has to be a solution to the problem now that I can positively identify the symptons
-Jim
Jim,
Have you done up any wiring diagrams for how all your switches/LED's etc are interfaced to the computer?
Jim,
If you can reproduce the problem then why don't you disconnect each
analogue input one by one and see if the problems goes and returns when reconnected.
other than that you could purchase one of Leo's cheapest i/f and do as i suggested earlier.
Les
Hello Les.
I actually did that and could not get it to reproduce the problem due to the fact it seemed intermittent.
When the sim is in operation it will not fault...most likely due to the fact the pots are being excercised.
Now that i realize the sim needs to be stationary. For this to happen..that is when fs9 is first booted up. I know now what to look for and have begun the pot isolation process all over again.
Jim
Hello my Friends
Just an update for you.
(And i will apologize in advance if i am repeating myself)
From my perspective the problem has to be with a pot. Bodnar electronics is in agreement as the chip set that is heating is the designated input for the analog connections.
So...for 4 hours last night and 5 hours today i tried to duplicate the problem by isolating each pot individually with no success. At the end all pots were reconnected and ran an additional 2 hours with no mysterious engine starts or overheat issues.
So here are some additional questions as i continue this process.
My 836x board is plugged directly into the computer USB port..so with this in mind is there any computer usb setting i might be overlooking?
Second, I Think we are in agreement that the only thing causing this occational overheat would either be a bad pot or a shorted wire somewhere in the pot connection network as a bad switch or short on a switch wire would not display in this manner.
So ..can a pot work perfectly fine for hours on end...then decide to all of a sudden short and cause problems?
My pots in question have been checked up and down for ohms values and i cannot see any issues...also its not like these pots have a lot of flight time on them...as they are practically new.
Although i have checked the wiring i have decided to install fresh leads to and from the board to each pot.
I will then connect each 5 volt pot wire to a quick disconnect push terminal so when the overheat happens again i will be in a position to disconnect one of the inputs and see if the board cools. If it does not then i will start the process all over again and by reconnecting that pot and disconnecting the next in line following the subsequent overheat.
I will do this until the solution is found.
So for now i will continue to update as the troubkeshooting progresses.
Hey Jim,
The fact all this happened on your last computer and your new one, I still think it is the firmware... Look Here:
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=94&products_id=180 (http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=94&products_id=180)
Doesn't this apply to your card?
John
Remember firmware is not a USB driver for your PC and the card, firmware is for the card only, and you might want to update this or just reinstall the one it uses. Follow the link above...
John
Thanks John.
I was not even aware that firmware was required, I assumed just plug and play. I have never downloaded any firmware for the board in the past.
Do you think this may be an issue?
-Jim
John,
This is also on that same page at the bottom with respect to the card;
"The PCB has a standard USB B type connector for connection to PC or Mac. No drivers are required. Plug it in and use straight away"
Quote from: Mach7 on March 19, 2017, 12:53:32 PM
Thanks John.
I was not even aware that firmware was required, I assumed just plug and play. I have never downloaded any firmware for the board in the past.
Do you think this may be an issue?
-Jim
Jim,
Firmware would have been installed at the factory. This is a firmware update. And yes, a bug in firmware can be an issue if it's setting up the ports wrong.
Jim,
I thought you had just bought a new Controller recently. If so it would have had the new firmware.
As suggested by Kyleh, definitely update firmware, i am surprised
Leo never suggested that.
Les
Just tried to update the firmware as per Leo's tutorial....
It basically dumped all of my settings and now my VHF nav heads are not recognized!!
I tried system restore but that did no good.
I beginning to thing building a sim is an exercise in patience...and to be honest the frustration is outweighing any amount of joy that is derived.
I think I am going to have to step back a bit and reassess my hobbies
Will update shortly
So....is there anyway to reverse the bootloader mode!!
I can see two files in bootloader and I am assuming one is my 836x and the other my vhf 1 nav head. as they are labled B100 and b401.
Leo had sent me a vhf exe file ...which is the firmware to run both heads, and I tried to download it again however vhf 1 is still unrecognized...it acutally says it 'cannot find'.
Sorry for the previous frustration in my email(s)/../.
Ok...so i successfully downloaded version 1 for the 836x and it again works !...(not sure if it is going to overheat or not..but right now just trying to get back to the point I initially started).
I was able to determine which device was in the bootloader by unplugging both nav heads and this left me with the 836x (as the loader re identifys these devices with numerics.
So now, only my VHF nav 1 will not work or be recognized due to the fact (i am assuming) it is in the bootloader waiting for a firmware update which I do not have.
So....how does one remove a device from the bootloader??
below is a link to the flash firmware I downloaded and currently used to update the 836x.
When Leo sent me the modified nav heads he sent a small firmware file lablelled VHF_NAV.exe
There is no bin file that I can foresee having access to as my initial thought was to just place it back in the file.
http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=page&id=5 (http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=page&id=5)
Jim,
I do not see VHF Nav heads listed on Leo's site, so is this somethng special you ordered? As for 0836x Card, it sounds like you did the firmware update correctly and it works without overheating as far as you know...
However, I am not sure about this, but now that you're talking about other items used in conjunction with 0836x beyond simple switches, buttons and leds being plugged into the card, I really don't know how that could play into the overheat issues.
You've tried two different cards (burning one up), used two different computers, switched from USB hub to computer USB ports, and changed out some pots, but you still have this problem...okay, you're not sure yet. With that in mind and if were me, I would draw a wiring diagram with every detail possible, including wire size, name brand of switches, buttons and etc used, and detail any other items beyond the normal connections to the card (if any). Then post a pic of your diagram. Also, please explain the modified Nav Heads, because this sounds like a missing piece to the puzzle that you haven't mentioned before or at least I don't remember that you did.
Lastly, I know this can be very frustrating and believe me all of the members here have gone through something like this at one point or another, but don't let it beat you. Why? Because you will have many more moments like this in the future and they mght be better or worse. The best thing is too think logical...go back through your steps one by one until you figure it out. Plus, keep asking members on this website and members on www.mycockpit.org (http://www.mycockpit.org) as it will help you get there, no matter the problem.
John
Edit for typo
Hello John,
You won't find the VHF Nav heads on his site because I got Leo to modify them for me on a special order, along with 16 mechanical engine gauges.
Bodnar electronics has confirmed that the firmware update, although not harmful to do, would not create the problems I am having with the card at present.The Firmware update(s) are reserved for those items listed on his site only.
My problem was that the Hidflash program (downloaded from his site) recognized the other plugged in devices and I accidentally selected "VHF NAV 1 Primary" into the bootloader which stopped it from working as it was waiting for an update.
The way these devices work is through a small .exe firmware program that runs the nav heads and engine gauges. One specifically for the nav heads and one for the gauges (VHF_NAV.exe and Eng_Gauges.exe). I have to click on each icon to bring these devices online.
Leo has sent me an updated firmware file for both heads, and I have got one online but the other still not recognized for some reason. (it advises it is connected but not recognized)
Anyway, I tried uninstalling the Hidflash program, and although it said it uninstalled successfully, it did not. I have since gone into the directory and 100 percent removed it...however still having issues with Vhf nav 1
My next step is to restore the computer to an earlier date and see if I can fix my nav problem....i tried this before, but since the flash program was still hanging on following system restore, my belief is that it prevented the nav from operating.
Leo is giving me excellent customer service and we are going back and forth on this issue, so I am happy with that but due to the time change they are closed now...so trying to work out a couple of solutions on my own.
With respect to the card, they advised to keep monitoring it and when it starts to heat, start checking voltages at the card to determine which pot is drawing current.
They also advised they recently upgraded the card with better protections against this sort of thing, so they are sending me another card in the mail free of charge.
So at present I am trying to get back what I lost (VHF nav heads) before I continue to troubleshoot.
-Jim
Okay, I see... So, if the computer restore works great, but if you did by chance change the firmware on the cards system restore cannot undo that.
As far as the 0836x card, I have two thoughts: One does the VHF NAV or Engine gauges get plugged into it whatsoever? If so, how is that setup? If not, where are they plugged into via USB hub or straight to PC USB Port(s)?
Two, did you have the VHF NAV and Engine gauges in use when the last card failed? If so, can you unplug them during your testing too see if this card gets hot or not, and then plug them back in and check for overheat again.
The only other thing that stands out is using RC servo parts for pots. I know they're only supposed send position data, but generally speakng, servos are more used to run gauges (in flight simulator realm) which does use power. Thus, let me ask this...is the Engines Gauges card driving actual gauges that has servos inside them? If so, how many gauges are ran together and do they relate to the 0836x? In other words, if the Engine Gauges draws power for the gauges, how much is that in amps, plus being that it's plugged in within proximity of 0836x card (USB of it) could it be crossing over and overheating the card?
Best Regards,
John
Jim,
How about sketching up a Block diagram showing what you have connected to what cards ect. It may help us all to see what the overall setup consists of.
Regards
les
Hello John,
I tried the system restore, and I still cannot get Nav 1 online...so you are right, the firmware must have been changed or dumped...however I still cannot upload the new firmware into that program to make it function.
Hopefully Leo will have a solution tomorrow morning.
With respect to the engine gauges and vhf navs, they do not plug into the 836 card in any way shape of form.
The engine gauges use a Canbus arrangement designed by Leo. Here is a link to a video clip of the initial design.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAxwVIwPAHw (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAxwVIwPAHw)
The vhf nav heads just plug into a USB port at the computer and a small firmware program brings them online.
I have ran the board with various configurations and the overheat problem is hit or miss, however I have had board overheats with everything online, and board overheats with everything off line (except the card of course).
I also have one open cockpits board that runs my flap indicator gauge...probably going to change that out for and include it in the canbus daisy chain as well.
The gauges run on a 24 volt power supply and is totally separate from the other devices within the system.
I had the same overheat issues when I had my previous set of gauges running off open cockpit cards.
@Les....just say your post while I was typing so I have included a block diagram of my current device configuration
Silly Question James, but why don't you just email Leo, and tell him what you did to the NAV1 and ask him to send you the "Proper Firmware for the nav1" and re-flash the card again.
Either that or he will need to do it for you..
Seems to me your hoped either way, but at least you can explain to him what you accidentally did.
Hello Trevor,
If you check my second last post, that is exactly what I did and that is exactly what he sent. The problem is that only one head will accept the firmware update and I am not sure why.
Jim,
When you went to update the firmware on the joystick card, it sounds like the update software package found several of the microcontrollers that were attached to the computer and update all of them.
I would suggest removing the problem head from your sim computer and plug it into a different computer and try to do the update it from there.
Thats actually not a bad idea......I think I will try that
Just tried it...didn't work.
Even on the second computer it the update names the nav head as "bootloader" as opposed to what it reads on the other nav head which is "VHF Nav 2 Secondary".
I might have to send the heads back to leo if I can't figure it out.
Also Kyle,
The firmware flash program that Leo designed has a drop down menu. Although all the plugged in devices are listed on the menu, you can only select one at a time.
If the firmware is not compatible with the chip...then it wont load
My problem was finger trouble as I mistakenly selected VHF 1 and sent it to the bootloader. I did not download any firmware on it...but neither could I get it out of bootloader...
Having said this, Leo advised that his Hidflash program does not need to be used for my èxtra`devices like engine gauges and nav heads...just use the firmware for the card update.
So the file he sent me is a straight firmware update for the nav heads...however there is only one and I assumed it would work on both, but it only worked on one...so I have another email in to him to see if there is something specific he needs to send.
Seems it also renamed the device from VHF 1 Primary to bootloader.
Hi Jim,
Now I have a better understanding of your setup and it is complex, not in the sense of complicated, but a lot of variables going on. Try not to worry too much, it'll get fixed one way or another...even if you got a little click happy...lol...it happens too all of us. ????
In the mean time, I suggest you stop and wait for Leo to reply. Basically, you did the firmware update for the 0836x which Leo suggests and I am assuming it works or if you plan to check it, do it without the VHF NAV and Gauges involved. That way you have one problem figured...that being the firmware update for 0836x card was done and it works as normal in design (ignoring overheat issue).
The second problem is your VHF NAV cards and I am not going to suggest anything for those since they're a special thing between you and Leo. It's best too wait for him in this regard.
You said they're sending you a new updated card, do you know when you'll get it? Not soon enough, right? Lol, I know how you feel...
John
Hello John, Les, Kyle, Trevor, Mick and Bob,
So, the VHF Nav head problem is solved. Leo remote connected this morning and had it fixed in about 10 seconds! So I am back in business
Not sure what the issue was, but possibly a corrupt or incompatible file that the chip would not accept.
It appeared that he had to dig up some old stored files or modify the old ones in order for the firmware update to take hold.
Anyway, the device on my "devices and printers" now says VHF NAV 1 primary and "VHF NAV 2 secondary", as opposed to VHF 1 primary calling itself 'bootloader' which I suspect was a good part of the issue.
Anyway, very happy with Bodnar Electronics customer service, even though this was a special requested build for me, and 100 percent sure I created the issue.
I think these guys can do just about anything if you need something special order.
Ok....so now back to the 836x card overheat issue.....will update on this as my progress continues.
-Jim
Hey Jim,
Glad to hear Leo got you all sorted out. Since you did update the firmware on the 0836x, have you've tried using it yet? Maybe, the problem will be fixed by the update you did and everything will be back too normal. If not, you do have a replacement card coming soon, so hang in there...
Best Regards,
John
I Knew Leo would sort you out..
I really am glad to see he logged in to help you. Good on him.
Keep us posted with your overheat issue.
Trev
Jim,
Good to see you are getting things back to where you were.
Had a thought, you seem to be on good terms with Leo, how about
asking him if he could incorporate some logging into the firmware on
the 386x card for the Analogue inputs. If the problem is here then
it may help to pin point it.
Have you ever tried putting all levers connected to analogue inputs to min that is to ground at power up and in idle. This would show if there is some strange phenomena then it may be a way of isolating the fault.
Les
Hello Les,
To be honest, over the last 5 years or so Leo has given me so much without asking for anything in return that I would consider that, but only as my last option.
Words cannot describe the admiration I have for Mr. Bodnar, his company, his employees, his customer service, and his attention to detail.
Top shelf for sure..
I still think that the overheat issue has to be derived form the wiring or the pots...but having said that the update might have solved my issues...time will tell...
I am also forever grateful for the help I am getting here on this forum, it is invaluable.
To answer your question, I have tried different thrust lever and flap/spoiler positions, and the problem is that the overheat does not occur all of the time...just occasionally.
I have arranged my wiring now that I will be able to read the voltage on each pot when it does occur again. Like I said in my last post....I ran it for over 9 hours with no issues whatsoever...restarting the computer and Fs9 over and over and over again.
This aforementioned marathon of troubleshooting imediately proceeded the previous day's overheat situation when the board overheated a handful of times after Fs9 was brought online...My clue to the overheat was the unintentional start of engine 4...followed by a hot chip).
-Jim
My only concern Jim is that once it overheated the first time, no matter what you do, the damage may have already been done.
Keep us updated please.
Jim,
You said earlier that is started at power up and in idle. So what i was meaning was that if something was occurring on any analogue input then having ALL pots grounding the inputs at the same time this would effectively prevent any strange input signal causing your problem.
I would also make sure you have your meter connected all the time to at least one input. It may take some time this way but as you know this is going to take a little more to sort out.
Keep at it as we are all interested and you will succeed.
Les
Hello Gents,
Just an update to my problem.
I changed out all the wires from the thrust lever, flap, and airbrake/liftspoiler pots.
All in all about 45 feet of wiring when you take into account the ground, control, and power wires.
I checked all the wires under a magnifying glass and found only one that had insulation removed exposing about 1mm of wire on one side only...it looked as though it might have rubbed up against something sharp as most likely when I was feeding the wire(s) though the simulator.
Anyway, I have not had the chance to do some indepth testing, however I have started the simulator about 5 times so far and it has worked fine.....that is to say no overheats.
Another problem has seemed to vanish as well following the wire change out. As I stated in previous posts, I had to (on occasion) unplug the 836x board before booting up the computer or else it would freeze at the "starting windows" page.
This problem does not occur anymore, and the computer will boot normally with the card plugged in.
I will keep the updates coming
-Jim