Hey all,
I have come to the decision that I really would like to motorize my throttles for my 757 sim. I already have gears being used to turn the pots, so I hope that might be one hurdle out of the way.
I was wondering if anyone can give me an idea of how difficult it is to accomplish this? What kind of servo motor do I need? Do I need one for each throttle or not? What kind of card do I need to be able to interface the motor and the computer and to what degree of difficulty is it to accomplish this?
Also, in terms of motors, is there a type that is better for allowing me to still manually use the throttles on the ground and on approach without breaking the motor?
Any help is greatly appreciated!
Regards,
Matt
David C. Allen worked on that
Check:http://www.737flightsim.com/AutoThrottle/AutoThrottle.html
Also talk to Maurice.
He is a pionneer of "motorization" !
Hi Matt,
You can check out this old post of mine. It has a list of the parts I used to motorize my homemade 737 TQ.
http://www.flightdecksoftware.com/forum/index.php?topic=206.0
Look here for pics,
http://www.mycockpit.org/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=687 (you might have to log in to check my album)
Hope this helps, FLY SAFE!
Regards,
Pedro
ODYSSEYNG
737simulator
"Keep 'em Flying and Enjoy the Ride"
Fortunately we don;t have to login to see the photo's "YET" LOL. Thanks for posting the links Pedro.
Trev
Pedro,
Can your setup as I read it on the other forum be used for FS9 autothrottle? I don't care so much about the speed brake as I do the throttles. Did you use a separate motor for each throttle?
Also, once everything is hooked up, does the Phidget card need some sort of calibration with the autothrottle? I am just a little confused on how it all comes together once everything is set up. Any help? Thanks for all the info already!
Matt
Hi Matt,
I had no problem getting the throttle levers to move with Fs9. I have a servo for each throttle lever, this way you maximize lever smoothness. If you use the program Diego created you have to calibrate the range/travel of the servos/levers, I recommend increasing or decreasing the travel of the servo disconnected from the lever at first to avoid damaging the servo. The program has sliders and options to setup the ranges. I highly recommend reading the post about the software to get familiar with what it can do, just click on this link; http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15935. The program and program .ini pretty much tell you where to connect the servos, sorry don't have access to the files at this time. I believe you have to connect servo #1(Lt lever) to connector zero in the phidgets servo card, servo #2 (Rt lever) goes in connector number 1 and spoiler servo (if used) in connector number 2. Once your servo card is connected to the computer run Diego's program, you should see the phidgets servo card listed, click on calibrate servos and setup the travel ranges. By all means if you have questions let me know.
Fly Safe!
Pedro
Quote from: Eduardo on May 03, 2010, 04:24:23 PM
Hi Matt,
I had no problem getting the throttle levers to move with Fs9. I have a servo for each throttle lever, this way you maximize lever smoothness. If you use the program Diego created you have to calibrate the range/travel of the servos/levers, I recommend increasing or decreasing the travel of the servo disconnected from the lever at first to avoid damaging the servo. The program has sliders and options to setup the ranges. I highly recommend reading the post about the software to get familiar with what it can do, just click on this link; http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=15935. The program and program .ini pretty much tell you where to connect the servos, sorry don't have access to the files at this time. I believe you have to connect servo #1(Lt lever) to connector zero in the phidgets servo card, servo #2 (Rt lever) goes in connector number 1 and spoiler servo (if used) in connector number 2. Once your servo card is connected to the computer run Diego's program, you should see the phidgets servo card listed, click on calibrate servos and setup the travel ranges. By all means if you have questions let me know.
Fly Safe!
Pedro
you're awesome, thanks!
There was or used to be a thread over there as well, where Peter Dawson had helped a member create a FSUIPC "LUA" Plugin that would smooth out the movement of the throttles so they wern't so darn jerky. If someone can login over there and paste that link here as well, that would be great.
Trev
I would definately be interested in some of the software being used to deal with the (Auto) in Autothrottle :) I recently had www.NorthernFlightsim.com rebuild my real ones to NG standard with all the automation. The hard part for me is in the software. The throttles as some may know are belt driven by motors on a slip clutch. A little different than just having a servo drive them.. Nice and realstic but a little tricky to get working..
Mike Leavy
The wheel has been already invented.
Ask David, he used motors and clutches.
http://www.737flightsim.com/AutoThrottle/AutoThrottle.html
Ahh cool.. I should have known he had it done already!
btw..Hes awesome! lol.. I cant wait to see how his sim is when its done.. He has been asking me questions about the real airplane that i actually had to be in the airplane with a video recorder to record the info he wanted lol.. Details and more details!
Thanks,
Mike Leavy
Hi Guys,
I've found this thread most interesting, but I see conflicting views about the way to go. Having built a manual throttle some time ago, I've been working on a new design that I intend to motorise. However I see that some people use DC motors, some use servos and some as discussed here are going with a clutch/brake design.
Can anyone say which is the best option, I'm told that with servos you can't touch the levers when they are under servo control. is that correct? The brake/clutch option looks quite an engineering feat for those without access to the necessary machines, so I've sort of leaned towards DC motors, but any advice would be welcome.
Cheers
Joe.
Hey Joe,
Maybe I have not been paying attention to details, but what is the DC option?
Matt
I guess it is DC motor versus servos.
Jack,
Pardon my ignorance on the subject, but what exactly is the difference between the two?
Matt
With servo motors you cannot move the throttle handles when they are being driven else you will likely strip their gearing. Also servo motors generally have circa 170deg of rotation - this does not lend itself to smooth movement through the gearing. DC motors are more flexible in gearing, smoother and can be controlled via simple and inexpensive Pulse width modulation controller boards which in turn can be driven from an I/O board in both direction and speed. I would have thought that the construction of a friction type clutch should not present major difficulties, unless you opt for the magnificent arrangement done by Jack :)
I will be converting my Symulatory throttle from servos (very jerky movement !!) to dc motors, that is after I have finished the overhead :-\
Matt,
DC Motors take a constant voltage to make them operate in one direction, and generally reverse the polarity to make them go the other direction.
Stepper motors take a series of pulses to make the device move, reverse the pulses to make it go the other direction.
Basically a stepper motor is part of a (Servo) but as a servo in that reference it generally knows where its position is all the time with a reference potentiometer generally and counts the pulses to make it move to another position.
Hope that helps you.
Trev
Matta
Servo motors are highly geared motors (generally used in model cars/airplanes) with an integral potentiometer - inside a boxed package with the actuator arm on top. Generally, the servo will move through a rotation angle of 170deg only to a position set by the signal value given to it by the control software often in a range of 0 to 1024. DC motors are free running so your gearing can be much more flexible - the motor can rotate as much as you want. Positional feedback is via a separate potentiometer
David
David and Trevor,
Wow am I glad I asked... I guess I really actually need a DC setup. I already have potentiometers that are connected to a BUO836X board to relay the position to flight sim, and it sounds like a DC motor and some sort of card or two is all I need to make it all work, right?
Where might I be able to procure the materials you mentioned, David? Are the Phidget boards the type that I need? If you have any sources or anything I would be most appreciative!
Matt
Matt,
Going the DC motor/slip clutch way also adds to the realism factor! I am constantly overiding or helping the autothrottles respond quicker in the real bird.. Also picture performing a rejected takeoff in a sim with servo coupled throttles.. You would wind up tearing the servos apart when you reach up and yank the throttles to idle!
Mike Leavy
Matt
Sadly, there is no real "plug and Play" solution here! The simplest probably would be to purchase a ready made controller such as the Opencockpits dc motor card. Link
http://www.opencockpits.com/catalog/electronic-cards-iocards-motors-c-21_34.html
This will control directly the motor speed and direction, though you will need to programme it all in their associated programming language SIOC, which although powerful, has a steep learning curve. I suggest that you research the Opencockpits site for using SIOC to control dc motors to gain an appreciation of what is involved. Alternatively you could buy a low level dc motor controller such as the BUV05 (currently out of stock) on this link
http://www.byvac.co.uk/mo_home.php
However, you will still need a programmable digital output board to send the control instructions - this is a much harder option than the Opencockpits solution. You pays your money etc etc
When I build mine, I will share the information
Regards
David
I guess the question I should be asking before I move forward with this is:
Is the ability to motorize throttles dependent on the aircraft software? Can any aircraft be programmed to have a motorized autothrottle? I know that the PSS 757 software sucks for most of the people on this forum because it can't be interfaced to show responses in the simulator (for lights and stuff) but at the moment, it is really the only quality piece of software for the 757 for FS9 (I wish Level-D would make their software compatible with FS9...). Since the only thing I really am trying to have the game control in my simulator are the throttles, I was hoping this might actually be possible.
So provided that the PSS 757 autothrottles can be motorized, does anyone know how to write scripts? I would love to use the Opencockpits card, as it is the cheapest, but I have no idea how to write scripts and after searching through their forum, I cannot find any codes written for the PSS autothrottle.
You guys have been SUCH a huge help already, but if anyone can answer these all important questions I would REALLY appreciate it.
Best regards,
Matt
Matt
If you are seeking simple movement of the throttles to reflect autothrottle commands then I would have thought that standard FSUIPC offsets would provide that information as you are only seeking to mirror what the plane is commanding, and which is reflected in the FSUIPC offsets. As you have found out, there is not likely to be any SIOC scripts for the PSS 757, but this should not matter as you will be taking the info from FSUIPC and not PSS 757 directly. There are plenty of autothrottle scripts out there using FSUIPC, however, the majority will be for servos and not dc motors. If you wish to puruse this option then you are in for some extensive study of SIOC programming!
David
David,
Phew, I am glad to hear that it is still possible. I was beginning to worry my hopes were going to be crushed by my dependence on a certain piece of software!
So I was checking out Opencockpits... besides the DC motor controller, do I also need one of their master boards?
Thanks,
Matt
Hey Matt
You are really courageous, to go through all that to replicate a Boeing gimmick!
Same for the motorized yokes!!
Mike himself said that he has to override it quite often.
I really do not see the point to sit back and look at the Invisible Man taking over your fun!
When you disconnect the AT it is either to slam the TQ forward (to evade whatever threat) or to retard, mostly on very short final or for some VNAV settings, and anyway, when you disconnect, the engines stay where the AT left them , then it does not take much thinking to adjust the lever to the desired power setting....
Well I had to say it!!! lol :P I hate automation as you probably guessed
Cheers Guys!
;) ;)
Hey Jack,
I think Mike was posing that as an "imagine if you need to abort takeoff" type thing... I don't want these so I can sit back and watch them move instead of me moving them... but that being said, it is realistic that from the moment you engage A/T on takeoff and the levers move themselves forward they remain under the control of the A/T usually until landing, at which point you disengage and manually operate.
The reason I want this feature is so that when the aircraft finishes climb, begins descent or makes any other autothrottle adjustment my thrust levers are ALWAYS where they are in the game, so that when I do disconnect them, the thrust settings are in the same spot and don't all of a sudden jump up or down when I begin to use them manually, if that makes sense. I think it will be quite awesome to see the levers retard slightly when the aircraft levels at the top of climb... and being that it's what the real aircraft does, wouldn't that be the epitome of realism?
I do understand your desire to manually control things, and I too love that and am not giving it up, but being honest, once I engage the A/T on the runway, I don't manually operate the throttles again until landing!
Matt
It is of course a never ending debate but what a kick to fly manual!!!
Well I am an oldie, probably, used to engage the AP well over 10K, when it worked, and always watching and not trusting that alien gizmo!!!
(was another planet, because one of the reason to engage it was to put the feet up and light up a Camel !)
Have fun Matt, that 's all it is about.
Jack
:laugh:
Jack,
Did you fly commercially? What aircraft(s)?
Matt
Jack, Not much has changed other than the fact that we usually have the autopilot on below 10k and you can trust it.. oh and forget about smoking lol. :)
Yeah i didnt mean that you have to constantly override the autothrottles as if they didnt work correctly. They really work perfect but the times i override them is usually a matter of technique and or staying just a little bit ahead of the airplane.
I think the servo idea would definately work fine. My biggest concern would be the damage that could be done if you or someone else reached up and yanked them around without realizing. I could just see myself sitting in the instructor cab setting the crew up for a Rejected Takeoff.. Aotothrottles engaged, TOGA, power comes up nicely, 100k... (Boom, engine fail).. captain reaches up and slams the power to idle then disconnects the autothrottles.. I can hear the servo gears crunching away!!
If your just doing it for looks and you keep that in mind i think servos would be fine. If you plan on doing any kind of training or have other people fly your sim then i would try and go the dc motor/clutch route.
Mike Leavy
I often times fly up to even 18,000 manually... I love handling the plane, so no need for automation there.
I am actually leaning towards DC just because it appears to be smoother movement.
yeah it is fun to actually fly once in a while :)
Mike Leavy
I was just wondering if anyone knows whether the embraer 170/190/175/195 aircraft use a similar DC clutch/break setup for their authrottles?
Quote from: Atomic_Sheep on April 03, 2011, 06:01:49 AM
I was just wondering if anyone knows whether the embraer 170/190/175/195 aircraft use a similar DC clutch/break setup for their authrottles?
I dont think there is much variation in how real autothrottles work in different airplanes... (Airbus not included) I dont know what that thing does with its clicks.. But you always need to be able to override, engage, and disconnect an autothrottle. Only so many ways you can do that. Anytime you override it, it has to come back to its calculated position. To me the motor/slip clutch method is the absolute best. Direct servo driven autothrottles are a disaster waiting to happen.
Mike Leavy
I totally agree with you when it comes to servo solution. I've been involved in RC airplanes as a hobby when I was younger so I know what servos are. I've dismantled them, broken em, fixed em etc... and I totally agree that it's an absolutely inappropriate tool for the task.
In terms of the Airbus one... it's quite simple, I don't know 100% but from what I understand and experienced in a real flight sim (only had the chance to do so once... I'm no pilot unfortunately), from idle all the way to the max that the levers go, you select the thrust you want... simple enough... same idea when going in reverse... have to pull some stuff to allow you to get into that range. So all this is pretty straight forward so far. Now the gates. All the gates are, is bumps that you feel and a click that you hear when you reach one. If you're in it, I'm guessing some button gets engaged inside which tells the computer that the thrust levers are in a gate. If they are in a gate, then the computer controls the thrust. The fact that there are different gates simply means that in order for you to tell the computer to execute certain commands, you need to put the thrust levers in appropriate gates otherwise the computer is locked out of those commands. It's pretty confusing if you have never used them but once you get used to them, it's actually a very intelligent system. But yer in terms of confusion, lets say you are travelling at 250 knots and you are currently in manual mode i.e. not in any gate, then you decide to crank the speed up a bit so you push the throttles forward but you don't realise you've hit a gate (very hard to do because it's so obvious so I would say impossible but lets say for arguments sake that you did not notice that you entered a gate)... lets say that gate is active and the airspeed setting chosen by the computer is 220... therefore... despite perhaps moving the thrust levers forward, since you've entered the gate, the computer will actually decelerate the plane. So that's one example of where one might get confused. The other cool thing about the airbus system is that when you put the thrust levers into a gate (lets say CL) which is the climb gate and the gate in which the levers are in 99% of the time, well... in that gate, you don't even need to control the airspeed of the aircraft manually i.e. you don't need to touch the airspeed selector knob from the moment that you take off to the moment you are on final as long as you've programmed the route with all the airspeeds in before the flight... it does it for you. Very simple and powerful system.
I will admit, it was all so easy that I got quite bored! Very awesome fool proof design however, great respect for it and honestly believe it's a very safe system which we'll be seeing a lot more of in the future. Very intuitive once you get used to it... like anything I suppose.
Regarding the Airbus system, your summary is on point. And for the most part, it is an amazing system you are correct. But at the same time, and seeing as the wreckage was just found, I have read and spoken to some pilots who feel that the lack of a motorized autothrottle could have contributed to the Air France 447 A330 accident. The thought is that given the reports about false speed readings and all that, the pilots may not have noticed a reduction in engine power that they might have noticed if the autothrottle was indeed motorized.
I also am not sure if the Airbus non-motorized throttles will ever take off. Embraer and Boeing (and I believe Bombardier) still use a motorized throttle system. I feel like this is probably because pilots can use the levers as a reference for what their engines are doing. But I could be wrong. I don't want to start an Airbus vs. Boeing argument here, I think both designs have their merits.
Interesting points, I hadn't considered some of the things you pointed... about to look up news of the 447 findings... have been eagerly awaiting more news about it.
EDIT: Another question just popped up. Since I've never experienced autothrottles before in a real aircraft, I was just wondering a little bit more as to what they feel like? The way I understand it, whether the autothrottle is on or off doesn't change the feel of the throttle levers? i.e. the friction level is the same regardless of whether the autothrottle is on or off? Also, I take it that the only thing that the autothrottle switch actually turns on is the DC motor which is connected to the throttle levers? And that is in turn controlled by computers. So basically this second bit backs up the first one if I'm correct in my assumptions?