1920X1080 short throw projector???

[astron]

So who needs one of these projectors, well pretty much anyone who is building a 3 projector setup for their sim needs one.

Anyone who has been flying for sometime using 3 nice monitors and a triplehead, and has changed over to a 3 projector setup to bring it up to the image size we need for a full size cockpit,will tell you of the initial disappointment that they saw when they first looked at the projected image. OMG look at those pixels,ouch. Now theres no doubt that the immersion factor is much higher,but the image factor,leaves some things to be desired.

I believe that there is a much larger gaming community out there then many people think, im not just talking flight simmers,i have been to several other sites and have seen guys building big curved screen,3 projector setups for all sorts of different gaming applications.

I would like to start campaigning the big projector companys to make one of these projectors,but its going to take a whole lot of people to do it. But if we find the right links to send people to,and everyone would get on the bandwagon and write in,its just possible that in a year or so they might take the hint. I would be glad to write up posts on all of the sim sites i know of,with links to the projector companys, and also start spreading the word to the other gaming communitys,may seem far fetched,but ive seen a lot of other things get accomplished in this flight sim hobby by doing the exact same thing.

But before i get carried away,i have a couple of questions and maybe there are some of the guys here that could answer them.

Will Fsx run on this high resolution of say 5760X1080? You can see in the FSX display settings a list of full screen resolutions,where do these resolutions come from? are they from fsx or does fsx take them from the graphics card,and whatever the graphics card can display, fsx will follow suite? some explantion about this would be helpful.

Also ive recently been talking to a fellow, who is building me some new computers for my 737 sim, so of course he asked me what i want and about the visuals etc... so we got on the projector subject, and he asked how was i going to set them up,triplehead to go or video cards etc... and can the projectors run at 1920X1080 and i said no they wont,i cant find any projectors that will do that,not in the short throw that we need.

And he said thats to bad,because he has built several large visual systems that are running at 5760X1080 and even higher. He said that with the newest nvidea graphics cards,he can take 2 of them and tie them together to give you the 5760X1080 resolution,therefore we can eliminate the triplehead to go,that to my knowledge wont run at that high,atleast mine wont,tops is 5040X1050.  And he also said that with the very newest cards that there will be no framerate hits either. So anyway this all sounds great,however we are still stuck back on the projector problem,no short throw high res projectors that will work for us.

Anyway i would like to get all of the input i could on this subject,and just maybe we can make another hurdle happen in the sim world.

Best regards,Tom

[jonesthesoftware]

Hi Tom
if you search for "short throw 1080p projectors on the internet there are several available. Range as low as 1.5 metres. 1980X1080 is the standard "full HD " resolution which most manufacturers support
I'm sure I saw on the MS FS website in the SDK section that the max resolution of FSX is more than 9000 X 1024 it was on the FSX website in an article about the FSX.cfg file but I can't find it at the moment. I believe the limitaion for projectors is the fact that you can only use 1 video output to diplay the scenery from FSX (if you try to spread it over 2 graphics outputs it stalls or crashes), so you are limited to the max resolution of 1 output of your video card and the TH2Go. So 5760X1080 would appear to be the max at the moment. Most single new graphics cards support this but check the Matrox website for compatibility with the TH2GO.
I was very dissapointed also with the poor quality image of projectors so I went with 50 inch plasma tvs running at 1980x1080(full HD) comparable costand getting cheaper every day, nice crisp images ,but not the depth of immersion of projectors. You pay your money and take your choice
regards
geoff

[Maurice]

I was very dissapointed also with the poor quality image of projectors so I went with 50 inch plasma tvs running at 1980x1080(full HD) comparable costand getting cheaper every day, nice crisp images ,but not the depth of immersion of projectors. You pay your money and take your choice
regards
geoff

I'm glad to read that I'm not the only one disappointed with projectors. I was beginning to think I'm just too spoiled, which I may well be as well 

Maurice

[jackpilot]

Not sure what you are after, but since I use one projector with a modest 1024 X768, I'm pretty happy with it, compared with reg monitors. Big image, fine in daylight (better in the dark of course), projected on a flat 8X4 screen .
Of course I'm planning 3 proj for later to get part of the side views, but the leap is "quantum" enough so far and even if taxiway signs are less readable from a distance, following airport maps makes up for it.
All in all, I like the big screen, but unless you fly VFR, 1024X768 projectors are good enough 4 me. Besides immersion has also a lot to do  with fluidity. A crisp view does nothing for immersion if it runs as a fast slide show.

My½¢.

[Maurice]

Jack, I'm very glad you are happy with your projector as I was when I only had one projector with a 1200x800 resolution but no short throw and a much smaller image. Magnify that image to a size required for wraparound view and see the big difference. I'm sure you wouldn't be quite as happy then.

As far as seeing a slide show with FSX, it seldom happens with decent hardware if you do not try to fly with AI over 20% or vehicular traffic. Even at KJFK or KORD, I'm nowhere near seeing a slide show and the only time it bothers me a bit is when taxiing and making a sharp turn since you will have some 'jumpiness in the image'. Takeoffs & landings though are very smooth, so no reason to ignore FSX except that I would wait for MS flight to see what it offers  .

Maurice

[astron]

Hi Geoff, well i have searched far and wide and i have not found any projectors that are the 1980x1080 with a short throw ratio of .5  which is really what we need, ive seen many mid to long throw projectors though with that resolution.  now the projectors i have currently are the benq mp780st, the native resolution is 1280X800,  now they will accept an incoming 1080P signal but then they down convert back to the 1280X800 resolution.  If you happen to run into a projector like what were after by all means let me know where you have found it.

Best regards,Tom

[Sean]

You'd be disappointed with this...?

[ivar hestnes]

Looks pretty slick to me Sean 

I think people just have to start realizing that when you are building a flight simulator, all aspects is somekind of a compromise. There is nothing like a free lunch in our field. This also goes for visuals. Most people would be very happy with having a large FOV screen, but see a few pixels if you are looking for them. The other option is to lower the FOV, or use 4 or 5  "4:3" projectors with 1280x1024 to make the same view.  Whatever option, it will have its issues. A taxed setup with undocked views will be even harder to run with HD compared to wxga.

The projectors we are typically using is intended for schools, and small offices. I dont think flightsimulation is on the "target list" for the projectors we are using. So when there is a demand for HD shorts throws in the education/office field... the manfacturers will make them. Until then... we are in the shit  If we make a list of 1000 people to ask for production of ST HD beamers, the manufacturer would know that only 5% of the people will actually purchase them when they are launched. They need to sell thousands to be able to sell at a price within the regular consumers market.

There is no problem to get HD short throw projectors today, but it is costly. First you need a expensice projector that allow for lens change... then you need to buy the lens.... You must be loaded with cash to achieve this. But the option is there. If people want a Ferrari they have to pay for a Ferrari... Probably a total start price at 5-6000 Euro each.

The other option, is ceiling height... Increase this, and there is no need for short throws at all. Ceiling height vs FOV is the compromise key here.

Myself, I dont have any problems with seeing a few pixels, as long as I can have a very large FOV. It is a compromise I can live with. It is a very big setup for relatively small money. When I am flying, I am not looking for pixels anyway. I fly... And my friends get motion sickness if I fly like a drunk-driver. Thats an achievement...

[Sean]

I should add...

that's Scotts setup above. My visuals are awaiting the MkII version and I'll be pleased if I can achieve what Scott has.

[astron]

Hey Guys, thanks for your comments and opinions, but i think were getting a bit out of focus on the subject, at this level of the flight sim hobby,i dont think it is about accepting things,i think it is about acheiving things. if we were all happy about accepting things,then we would still be sitting behind a 22" monitor with a ch joystick in our hands. but now we are sitting in a 737 simulated cockpit with all the goodies.

Another good example is, i would bet most everyone of you has some add on scenery why?   because you werent willing to accept the default scenery,who wants to look out at a bunch of brown blotches, not very pleasing to the eyes,and i would think after flying over miles of this stuff,i would have quit flying altogether.


And as far as getting the projector companys to do something like this,i dont think that it is an impossible task,all you need is one company to do it.
A great example of this is, nthusim, they just recently released their new version with (edge blending)  why would they do that, one reason is that many people wrote into them,including myself, telling them ,i think you have a great product here but it would sure be nice to have edge blending included, not to mention,the fact that there were a couple of other companys coming out with edgeblending also.


And i completly understand that each  individual has their own ideas of what they want out of their sim,for me personly i have always said,that 50% of my build was the simulator,the other 50% was the visuals, it just didnt make any sense to me to spend 20 or 30K on a simulator, only to look out the window and see some half A***ed visuals. 

Now the good news is that the technology already exists, we just need to get it into a projector that works for our situation, and to be honest with you i have no idea,what that entails, but i do know that there are lots of mid to long throw projectors using 1080p already that are within the price range of the hobby consumer.


So if anyone is still interested in this subject let me know,as i will research the various links of the projector companys,and post them here,all you would have to do is write them a short note telling them what you would like to see and what it is being used for,you might be surprised.

I do know one thing though,if you give up before the battle starts,you will never win.  you have every thing to gain and nothing to lose.

Anyway those are some great cliche's

take care guys,Tom

[Maurice]

And i completly understand that each  individual has their own ideas of what they want out of their sim,for me personly i have always said,that 50% of my build was the simulator,the other 50% was the visuals, it just didnt make any sense to me to spend 20 or 30K on a simulator, only to look out the window and see some half A***ed visuals. 

I absolutely second your opinion here. Half-assed visuals were quite OK in the early days when projectors were a real luxury item but now that we can achieve 180+ degrees visuals, then visuals take a much more predominant role. Let's not forget that the only really busy times when flying is the takeoff & landing sequences. Other times is mostly just looking out the window & enjoying the scenery if the visuals allow you to enjoy the scenery. That depends on the projectors and on FSX & FSX scenery with several must have add-ons of course.

Once you get past the WOW! factor of seeing a big wraparound image (& that did not take very long for me), then you start noticing the image fuzziness which is most annoying when you are on the ground and can't read taxiway signs until you are practically on top of them, or when you are trying the see the runway in the distance when doing a VFR landing and all you see is grey mush until you get much closer. Knowing what I know now, I would have picked 3 large LCD or Plasma screens instead.

To compound the resolution limitations of current projectors, another big issue in my opinion at least is that any image warping software you use for a curved screen adds further degradation to the image sharpness. I can see that degradation quite well by switching from warped to unwarped as objects get shorter and fuzzier when the image is warped. Add that to the visible pixillation and the results are quite short of spectacular.

I'm very tempted to experiment with 3 large & flat angled screens instead of a curved screen. That would eliminate the need for warping but I have no idea about how easy or hard it would be to align the 3 projectors. Projector distance from the screen would have to be exact to get same size projections but of course this is not an issue when you use warping software. Food for thought (for me anyway).

I know that I will get replies saying that once you get busy really 'flying' & following procedures, the visuals will not matter as much but I seriously doubt that. Visuals are the MAIN reason why I got 3 projectors. 180+ degrees field of view was just an added bonus for me. As for the pictures that several people have posted of their curved screens and that look quite spectacular, I too can get spectacular pictures from a distance when you can't see the fine details. Not quite as spectacular inside the cockpit where it really counts.

Maurice

[astron]

Maurice,i couldnt have said it better, your feelings mimic mine exactly.    And i dont want you other guys to think that im whining about this subject,because thats not the point at all. The point is that there is already much greater projector technology out here,we just dont have it in the package we need.   I guess part of my problem is that ive been sitting in front of 3 52" viewsonic monitors on a triplhead to go, add some killer scenery to that and crank up the lod radius in fsx,and you are looking at  some mind blowing visuals, so yes when i went the 3 projector route,on 3 8ft wide screens, i expected things not to be as good, but also not quite this bad.

As with Maurice,yes the visuals are important to me, but there not to everybody and thats ok too.

And Maurice,for your information,you had mentioned going with 3 flat screens, well that is exactly how i built my setup,   the center screen is 8ft wide ,allowing you to park the whole simulator in front of it.  the 2 outer screens are angled in at about 60 degrees, so you can still look to your left and right and still see all screen.  and the main reason for building it this way,was that i do not have to use any warping software,  as far as aligning the projectors to the screens, it can be done manualy with some patience . but i found it much easier to just use some edge blending software that i found,  I got in on some beta testing with the fly elise-ng   people and i find that it works just great for me, you can download there software for free, try it out and if you like it,   it costs around 50 bucks,  i havent seen any where else you can get warping and edge blending software for that price.

Best regards,Tom

[matta757]

I'm gonna pick my side and go with Maurice and Tom. I have not tried the projector setup for this very reason. I want my visuals to be spot on. I have completely realistic AI traffic and tons of addon scenery, why would I want to have it be blurry? I love the idea of the wrap around 180 FOV, but the way it is now, I know I wouldn't be pleased and thus have not invested in it.

[jackpilot]

Tom
I'm glad you mentionned Fly-Elise.
I asked these guys to post here but they never did for whatever reason.
Please comment on the product as your feedback could  help some of us here, including me.
(can you use the edge blendig without the warping? )

http://fly.elise-ng.net/

[XOrionFE]

Well my turn to chime in on the subject.     As many of you recall when I first setup my projectors I had the exact same realization that most here have described.  Oh my gosh.....the clearity and crispness is gone!   Yes, this is a fact using the projectors compared to LCD screens for sure.  But for me I have decided that the immersion factor is worth it (much like Ivar stated).   I wish the technology was better and when it does get better (probably within a few years) I will probably change out my projectors for the next big thing.    That said, I am completely happy with the results I have achieved thus far (and really need to thank Ivar for pioneering the idea of the wraparound visuals for FSX and anyone else that helped).   I still fly on a desktop PC with a 32 inch LCD whenever I want to enjoy my Orbx Scenery and a small light twin doing some bush flying in the Pacific Northwest and love the view and that kind of flying.    When I want to fly on instruments and with all procedures required that is where the 737 comes in and IMHO the visuals are still really secondary to the eyecandy in the cockpit largely from FDS.    I mean, there are still times I sit in my captains chair and just stare at the beautiful MIP, CDUs, etc.....   The outside visuals in this case to me really have to allow for a hand flown landing and in flight need to supply that ambiance and sensation of movement through space which I just dont think you get without wraparound visuals.   Today we are stuck with the projectors we have and their limitations IF your want that wraparound visual and the real sensation of movement and immersion you get.   You just have to give up the detail for now and be happy with it until something new comes out.   Tom has a great idea in lobbying the projector folks.   My guess is that with the way technology moves we will see some higher resolutions soon anyway.    When that time comes I will definitely as I said make the swap but for now I have so many hundreds and hundreds of hours to finish the simulator as it is and can have a blast flying in the visual enviroment I have which I only could have dreamed of just two short years ago.  Sometimes we just have to be happy with what we have I guess and remember that  many others would kill for it.    I know that everyone who has come over and flown in my sim with the projected visuals so far have simply been blown away and for that I am happy.    When my wife first sat in it and said she was getting dizzy I knew it was something special.

Scott

[Nat Crea]

As most of you know, Ive played with a few visual set-ups myself...
and Id love 3 ST HD projectors one day...but It wont happen for a while unless you
want to spend 10K each at least I think.

If you focus on the pixels outside of course you will be disappointed, I am too sometimes,
but when you get in the "groove" and get immersed in a flight its awesome.
The same reason I turned "frame rate" counter off now...I used to stare at that and forget what i was doing.

What we have in terms of Sims and visuals is not LevelD but a whole lot better than what
some professional aviation companies have...beats the  CH Yoke i had a few years ago

A few years ago there was no such thing as curved and blended 180 visuals for us...so the time will
come that HD short throws will be common place too...fingers crossed.

Nat

[Maurice]

/quote]


My wife gets dizzy if I just pull a U turn in the car  .

I'm also very much aware that others would dearly love to have the same visuals I have now. Unfortunately, that does not compensate for seeing blurred images. I did not go through that much effort & expense to impress the occasional visitors. I did it for me, myself & I

And I say what's wrong with not being happy about fuzzy projections? That certainly does not mean I can't fly under those conditions. My only purpose in saying what I said was to help others make a choice based on facts rather than on seeing beautiful pictures taken from far away which do not show the inherent limitations of FSX & current projectors. If you know what you are getting into, you will be much less likely to be disappointed when you see the results.

Having said all that, it's still amazing that we have such choices thanks to the pioneering work of Ivar, Nat & a few others. I am definitely grateful to them as well for having expanded our choices. But the key word here is choices. Choose whatever makes sense for you & don't be seduced by pictures of 'sexy' stretched projection screens with lots of make-up (read warping software). When you get to live with them, you may regret overlooking the not so sexy but very lovable plain Jane smaller screens. 

And yes, I am definitely a spoiled brat at the age of 66. I waited all my life to be spoiled and I don't apologize for that. 

Maurice 

[astron]

Hi Mr Scott, i knew you would make an appearance sooner or later lol.    And Jack, yes you can use just the edgeblend feature of the software,and the cool thing is this stuff is so easy to use even a 4 year old can do it, lucky for me im atleast 5.

And guys dont get me wrong,im not here to downplay your visual systems,as i have the exact same thing,can i fly with it and  live with it for now, sure i can i dont have much of a choice at this point. 

My whole intent with this post,wasnt really to debate visual systems, it was meant more to gather a group of voices,to begin  campaigning the projector companys  to see if they might listen to us and build us a projector that might work for our situation.   And the way i look at it,is maybe there is no one out there asking them, but if we start bothering them now, and start spreading the word to the rest of the gaming community,and others start writing in also, just maybe one day we can have our cake and eat it too.

I know many of you are saying that the visuals are a secondary issue next to the cockpit, why should it be? what if it didnt have to be?  I really dont think there is one guy here,that given the opportunity, to be able to buy a 1080p projector with the short throw we need and the price range we could afford,wouldnt do it.

The sim world changed,the minute you went from a desktop sim,and climbed into a full size 737 cockpit simulator, therefore the visual system had to change also,3 monitors out in front of a 737 just dont cut it today,  and yes thanks to Ivar for really getting the ball rolling, now i think it is time to take it a step further, and enhance the wrap around screens with some beautiful images.   i know it can be done, but if nobody starts the ball rolling in that direction, then yes we might be waiting for ever to get this part accomplished.

As i have time i will do some research on getting us the correct links to some of the projector companys, it may only be as good as a customer support link,but i will have to look into it as i go.   Then all you have to do is write a short note to them, it might sound something like this.

Dear sir, i am very much interested in buying one of your projectors, however i dont see anything here that will work for my application, myself along with a large group of people,are building airplane flight simulators, and each setup requires 3 projectors, we would like a high resolution 1080p projector,with a short throw of .5 or less, if you have anything like this or are intending on building something like this,i would very much appreciate it if you would let me know, there is a rather large gaming community looking for this type of projector.

thanks again best regards,Tom

[jskibo]

I think the problem remains that the gaming community is nothing but noise to the PJ manufacturers.  They represent little in the overall numbers of projectors sold.  You'll see a decent priced 1920 x 1080 short throw when there is a business need (they being the largest market for Projectors) for such a projector.

When the board room needs an HD short throw, you'll likely see it in a portable device first.  Perhaps by then, LED's will have gotten bright enough to power one.

Better to write them and say "I'm the buyer for XYZ, Inc and I'm interested in one" than "I'm a gamer and interested in one".  Gamer conjures up 16 - 30 year olds with no disposable income in the minds of the business community

[astron]

Hey John, not a bad idea,we could all pretend to be deans from upper class colleges:
Hi this is dean so and so from Yale,and we are in need of this particular type of projector,lol  that might work until they caught on to us.

Or maybe we just send them some mindblowing pictures of our simulators,and they would realize these arent 10 year olds playing with this stuff.

[ivar hestnes]

For sure, when there is HD ST available, I am in for it too. By then maybe we have MS flight (hopefully working for our visuals need...),
and better computers to run the show also.

I dont have any problems to understand what you guys are saying. You can see the pixels for sure. And I wish I could be without the pixelation. The alternative is beamers with longer throw, and more ceiling height + a double curved screen. Or playing with mirrors and stuff... There are options. The only reason for using ST beamers is to prevent the cockpit from making shadows. But I dont think it is too realistic to think about low-cost HD ST yet. The demand must come from source that requires a few thousand items. Then it will happen. And I believe it will happen. The ST wxga have been around for a while now... But if some people gather to try to influent the manufacturers, I really wish you good luck, and hope it will help. I am not against the idea, but it is not realistic in my opinion.

But considered the amount of money spent in the sim already... 15.000 Euro for high end beamers with special lenses is not that bad... They are out there. If visuals are a main priority, the option should be considered. 15.000 Euro is approx the same as a complete MIP+TQ with all the stuff in it.

[jskibo]

...and with the current value of the Zimbabwe, err, I mean US Dollar, $15K Euro is equal to $7.8 Million USD

[jackpilot]

Ivar
What is a double curved screen.   

[Efe]

Ivar
What is a double curved screen.   

I'm guessing a spherical screen. Curved horizontally and vertically

[Sean]

Would an increase from 1280 to 1920 pixels cure the issues under debate here?