X-Plane 10 and the home cockpit user.

[blueskydriver]

Hey Everyone,

I decided to go for X-Plane 10 and install it to see where it can go in regards for the home cockpit. So far, it is a rocky road (not in an ice cream sort of way either).

First, I installed from the disc installer of the package (you get 8 discs in a packet), which is dated November 2011. However, I did not check the manual first to find out that the disc installer will not work with this dated version, so after 4 hours of installing, I had to start all over again. Although, I had to download a "download installer", and then use it and the discs in order...four hours later, I still had to download a 500+ Mb update.

Okay, so I am saying to myself "alright here we go X-Plane is going to start-up". NOPE! It hangs on the start-up right away and after restarting several times, I get the same thing. Sadly, all I can do is send an email to X-Plane support for help at this point.

Supposedly, there is issues with Nvidia cards, and I am not sure about the Matrox TH2GO-D being used. Hopefully, they will get back too me right away since they're on CST (my time zone). Otherwise, has anyone else pursued this road yet and if so, what problems have you faced?

Finally, I plan to keep this thread going as I proceed and report the complete install, through to the actual use of X-Plane 10. Thus, for those of you who plan to switch we can bounce here to getting working. Also, not sure if many of you know this, but did you know that FSX Scenery, Airports and Aircraft can been imported into X-Plane 10? I read that yesterday... Oh from this point forward, I plan to call X-Plane 10 just X10 for short.

BSD

[blueskydriver]

X-Plane 10 Update:

This morning I tried X10 without the Matrox TH2GO and it worked! I did get an idea about this being the problem from Bob, as well as the email I got from X-Plane Support yesterday. It doesn't mean the TH2GO will not work, it just has something to do with Power Desktop from what I read. I have to do more research yet... Is there anyone else going down the road with X-Plane 10? If so, please join in with your Pros & Cons.

As for the actual settings and the all important FPS. I did not get a number in the test yet, but let me just say it is smooth as a baby's butt! At least on one projector it was, but let's see what 3 will do too it once I figure out the TH2GO issue.

Finally, this is just day 1. Imagine starting all over with FS9 or FSX like it was your first day and you know zero, zip or notta darn thing about it, that is what this feels like...sort of. I hope it is worth it?!

BSD

[Bob Reed]

I too am waiting to see how this goes. I fear it will end as a flaming hole in the ground though. many folks have attempted to head down this street but the road blocks have always ended up sending them back the way they had come. Good luck and keep us posted.

[Maurice]

Finally, this is just day 1. Imagine starting all over with FS9 or FSX like it was your first day and you know zero, zip or notta darn thing about it, that is what this feels like...sort of. I hope it is worth it?!

BSD

BSD, I don't know if I should love you or hate you. On the one hand, you are a maniac who keeps putting evil thoughts in my head (VATSIM, X-Plane...), on the other hand, you do most of the grunt work which makes it easier for lazy bums like me to jump in later on after you've done all the dirty work. I'm stunned though that you haven't yet jumped on the P3D treadmill  (or have you?) but I'm sure it's only a matter of time.

As I said, I don't know if I should love you or hate you 

Maurice

[Bob Reed]

I am just wondering.... With my sim not even together yet, and I will be using only 1 projector and very little prebuilt gear if I should not give X-Plane a shot.... Looking at the software now....

[blueskydriver]

I know, I know my insanity is beyond measure isn't it! Oh well, I guess it is good for something though; besides, it can't make a crazy person crazy, since I am crazy already.

Maurice, I haven't tried P3D yet; although, I did read up on it. I guess I don't see the point of recycling FSX for the purpose of trying to make FSX better. The only way P3D will make FSX any better is to drastically alter the graphics engine totally. So, for now, FSX is working and thus, I can't see just redoing it through P3D to get the same results.

Likely, the only way to get a better or smoother ride out of FSX is to use three high-end computers (the highest you can get), and just use sol7 and wideview (call it the threeway method). The time and money that is spent trying to do work arounds for FSX would be better spent on going with the threeway method. Although, has anyone actually set up the P3D on a home cockpit yet and posted about it? I'd like to see their results at this point...

Bob, it likely will be all flames and no glory, but as you say, it very well could work for you with a single projector and the B200. You're not using as much resources as the 737, so you could get away with it. You haven't really set up your system complete, so it would be more of an advantage to start with X10 now.

In any case, I will continue to post as I go along. Hopefully, if X-Plane does pan out, I will go with it totally and drop FSX. With the ability for X10 to import FSX Scenery and othe add-ons, it's that much more tempting to continue on rather than quit. As long as I get the speed and smoothness, plus have the better visuals, I see no reason not too. Of course, that is an early on statement.

BSD

[XOrionFE]

Every one I have ever talked to that have used Xplane 10 say it is not worth it.   I myself tried the demo on my desktop sim and frankly was not impressed enough to make a switch but nonetheless I am still interested in reading about your journey BSD and seeing where it leads you.

For me FSX works great and I rarely have any problems with smoothness so Ther really is nothing to make me want to switch.   I am interested in Prepar3d just because it is being supported ongoing but will also be slow in traveling those waters.   

Keep your posts and experience coming...so long as you don't lose your sanity in the process   

Scott

[abrenna]

I've started building a cockpit for X-Plane. It's to early to show something of, but I've been testing the integration og switches and electronics, and it looks good. The good thing with X-Plane is that everything needed for integration with external software and hardware is built in, and it seems to be well documented.

[Kennair]

The problem I see with X-Plane is the fact you can't split off separate views as you can with FS.  To do anything with multiple views or panels you need multiple PC's and therefore multiple licenses to accommodate (at least as far as my investigations went).  I bought XP9 last year to try it out but like Scott, was less than impressed.  P3D holds much more promise for my mind due to its FS legacy and ongoing support.

Ken.

[blueskydriver]

X-Plane 10 Update.

Spent some time working on X-plane 10 again and I got past the issues with it not working with the Matrox TH2GO box. With the box connected, X10 will not boot up. I tried updating the Matrox Software and the SGU program, but come to find out X10 has the TH2GO settings native now and you can adjust the settings, as well as the DOF within X10.

The problem that I found is you have to remove (uninstall) the Matrox SGU program from the computer completely, which is no big deal though since you can always reinstall it for FSX.

Next, the big issue to solve is NTHUSIM, as it is supposed to work with X10. I'll have to research more on it. Still the image is now across three projectors, but not corrected as of yet...

The story will continue.

BSD

[blueskydriver]

Update: Found info regarding why the NTHUSIM is not correcting and that is due to X10's most recent update caused problems for the NTHUSIM stack of the OpenGL, so NTHSUIM is not loading up correctly. It is being looked into now... Good news is it has worked in the past for X9 and X10.

More to follow later...

BSD

[blueskydriver]

X-Plane 10 Update:

Before I start, I just wanted to point back to an earlier post that started me with X-Plane 10...here:

http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php/topic,1991.0.html

Now, for the latest news. As you know I have X-plane 10 working on the three projectors, but the problem still remains with NTHUSIM and correction. I have been getting emails from X-Plane Support and they're saying fixes for Nvidia and/or Matrox are coming in update 10.10 in the next week.

Prior to yesterday, I tried installing the latest Nvidia Drivers 296.10 for Windows 7 to see if that would change the OpenGL source and fix what is happening with NTHUSIM; especially, since X-Plane is OpenGL driven. Well, that didn't fix NTHUSIM, but it did something worse. It changed all my settings for FSX and thereby, screwed up my visuals so much they looked like MSFS version 1...okay, not that bad, but horrible looking.

Now, I am a big fan of System Restore, but this time I forgot to make a restore point. Even more so, I have System Restore turned off on the FSX machine because it was/is some tweak I used to stop windows from monitoring for restorations. Well, you get the point...no restores to use and all is screwed up, and not only that, I removed the SGU for the TH2GO to add insult to injury. Thus, all the settings went bad, as well as PowerDesk to make it possible for windows to open across the screen and not in the middle where you can't see them due to the cockpit shell.

After all the fixing, I remembered I was using Nvidia Inspector (updated to 1.96.5), so I had to make changes for that. If you're not using Nvidia Inspector with your Nvidia Card, you should, as it makes a huge difference to everything visually, and I mean huge! I flew on VatSim earlier today and realized Nvidia Inspector had FSX set to Global, so it just looked okay, but that is what made me go check it. What I found out was to reset it to the MS FSX profile and make adjustments as per Nick Needham's suggestions...here:

http://www.simforums.com/forums/settings-for-new-drivers-updated-v1959_topic36586.html

Finally, in doing all this I ran across a link to a guy on youtube that has his system setup to the max like the most of us builders do and what he came up with in regards to tweaks is just totally amazing! You need to watch his videos as it is just crazy, but more importantly, he also provides settings and other info on how he did in the info section...go here to watch:

PMDG 737NGX - Hints For Smooth Running

Do take this video and tweaks with caution, as you could use them, but the user named "PrivateCustard" does not state if this is for a single screen or a multimonitor setup. He states that his Nividia Settings is for one display and not multi. However, he does not say he is using TH2GO on this single display setting. Thus, even though his videos look great, TH2GO and 3 projectors would bring it too it's knees I think. Also, I don't see anywhere that he edited the youtube video on video editing software as most people like to do on youtube. Of course, what you see there most the time is unrealistic because of video editing, if he didn't use it, then he has reached the holy grail for FSX!

There you have it! A rather long update about X-Plane 10, but more so as to how things will get changed for your FSX setup, so be careful and always make backups and RESTORE POINTS (Good God for me to forget geesshh!)

BSD

[Kennair]

Thanks for the update BSD.  Both X-Plane and P3D are of great interest to me for the future of this "hobby" and I really appreciate you detailing your efforts even though it sometimes results on pain.  I know Nick recommends turning off System Restore for optimising Windows for FSX but I think this is a necessary option even with today's hardware, but it does leave you vulnerable.  I'm in favor of plenty of system backups as the ultimate system restore.

Ken.

[blueskydriver]

Hey Everyone,

It's been over a month since I really did anything regarding X10, and that is due to it not being able to warp in the NTHUSIM program. After waiting for X-Plane to release X10.10 (which they haven't yet), NTHUSIM goes and releases version 3.1 Plus (downloaded last night), which addresses the issue with X10, NTHUSIM and TH2GO.

So, GREAT NEWS! X10 is now working in warp mode, BUT it's no cake walk. From what I can tell, I set the settings for 135 degrees (in X10) and the warp does work; although, I think the degree settings may or may not affect the view like we all think it would. At this point, it's way to early to tell; I mean it looks right, but I have to do more testing.

Now for the not so great news, when you try to setup any joystick or button functions, or anything to do with the menu screens, the mouse pointer is way off from the actual point and click locations. Some of you may know about this with NTHUSIM and seeing two pointers (white and red). Well, there aren't two pointers this time, but it could be a settings issue in NTHUSIM. Furthermore, there is something I discovered today, that I don't believe I have seen in X10 before.

Looking on the menu under the X10>Settings>Joystick and Equipment>Equipment Tab (Accessories), you will see a selection for Matrox Triple Head To Go. The funny thing is that I have no idea what this does. I first tried X10 with NTHUSIM 3.1 and it worked fine, and then I checked this box. I got the same warping but it was off somewhat. So, that means this box is doing something to the warp. However, if I just use that box without NTHUSIM there is no warp correction.

Next, is the setting of the joystick and buttons themselves. The good news is I have the FDS joystick card and X10 reads it just fine. Also, I have an Plasma MM2 card on the TQ and it is being seen by X10 just as well. Although, I still have to go in and set each one, the problem and bad news is, it is really hard to do because you do not see the selection boxes change to what you selected. In other words, you fix an input, but you do not see the item from the drop down list that you chose change for that input until you start on the next input; much like you need to hit a refresh button or something of that nature.

Finally, at this point, X10 does not come with a B737 (any model of it), you do get a B747, B777, KC10, and a C130 for "Heavy Metal" In addition, I am not seeing any airport buildings... Therefore, I will say that there is a long way to go to get this working on par with FSX and the type of Cockpits' we all have, but then again, X10 is like an infant girl for Home Cockpit Builders who have all been living with a grown FSX woman for so long now...oh well, nothing like training another woman...lol!

BSD

[Bob Reed]

Well Blue, you should have been at the gathering this weekend. James Price and Matt Ford are both using X10 in their sims and James said the graphics where pretty good! Said there is a learning curve and yes it still needs work but so does MS and unlike MS IS being developed still. Not saying it is for everyone. I was planing on looking at it and now I know I will.

[XOrionFE]

Thank you BSD for testing that today more after we spoke.   Sounds like progress but like you said...a long way to go.

Bob, I need to point out to you and everyone else that while James and Matt are both using it (and maybe they will kindly chime in here if they happen to stop in), neither of them are using them on curved screens with warping like most of us are doing right now.   Matt doesnt even use the XPlane visual system at all and James is not using a curved screen with projection or warping yet either.    I believe he is just using three projectors stretched view but not warped onto curve with three seperate views but I can't recall.   He expressed that he was just starting to work out a good visual system for use with it as well.   

Anyway, it will be interesting to see it progress.  My interest is definitely peaked about it especially since hearing it works well with XFUIPC and Sim-Avionics.    I think X-Plane just has this unexplainable "realness" to the visual environment that I have not been able to duplicate yet with FSX, REX, and ASE but working on it.   Either I will figure out how to get FSX to my liking or hopefully at some point XPlane, NThusim or Warpilizer, and TH2Go will all work nicely together.   

Keep working on it BSD and keep us informed!  I know I will be watching.

Scott

[Bob Reed]

Ahh Scott but right now that is my plan as well. One projector and one screen. I am talking more about the graphics and flight model and no Matt is not using the visuals at all. All I am saying is I think with some patience and some work it is about all that is left out there as nothing else is being developed now.

[XOrionFE]

If I was going with one projector and one screen I probably be right behind you Bob.  I have flown the Xplane demo and I am just totally in love with the graphics.  I havent tried anything but the Cirrus yet as I only have the demo but I decided I am going to buy a copy of it for my desktop simulator and get the X737 addon for it so I can continue enjoying, learning, and testing.   Your right...FSX is dead when it comes to future dev and the best choice in that is Prepar3d but I dont see that they can do too much with it.   

Scott

[MLeavy737]

Thanks for the Xplane work BSD! I think its a great sim and like i said before, i definately plan on taking a good shot at getting it going with my sim.  The flight dynamics are just soo much better than any FS in my opinion.  I remember turning up some winds and shooting a few landings. Its was actually a nice workout just like the real ones, something i was never able to reproduce in FS. FS is just way too easy to fly, too stable i should say.. 

Anyway, i dont want to turn this into Xplane vs FS war like so many other threads however im just looking forward to seeing sims develop with Xplane in them and lets see where this goes! New challanges are always fun! Right? Lol

XPUIPC does work great btw! Also theres a real nice SDK that can be used to do almost anything with it.. Also X737 is a real nice airplane.

Mike L

[Bob Reed]

So Mike, will my B200 gauges work in X-Plane?

[blueskydriver]

Great News! I actually got the curved screen setup correctly and it looks exactly what I have for FSX for the curve itself, and that is with one view and not three. Also, I actually flew it after crudely setting up the yoke, pedals (although I don't need these), the TQ, the Speed Brakes, the Flaps, the parking brake, and the TOGA. Of course I did this while in three projector mode, so it was tough.

However, I do like the graphics and how smooth it flew! Plus, I did a few things that made me feel somewhat woozy:

1. I throttled back and set flaps full, and in doing so, I saw and it made me feel as if an uplift occured and the feeling you get when flaps go down quick. It just seemed that way.

2. While taxiing it was nice and smooth, no rockets on the wheels, and the cool thing was the height to ground distance (eye point). I did not change it because it already looked natural, and it made feel as if I was sitting in a cockpit, where in FSX it didn't matter where the eye point was I never had that roundness feeling; FSX feels flat like a 2D plane, where X10 seemed more 3D plane (that's best way I can describe it).

3. On the take off and landing the runways are for sure following the terrain. You can see the dips and non-even surface out in front of you. It certainly added to that feeling of what is illusional and what is not.

4. The biggest thing is about night and day times. X10 will need some scenery updates like FSX has received over the years, but the night scenery is like what you expect to see in regards to volumetric pins of light, and not globs of it. When you get higher, the lights stay the same size and when you get lower they still the same size, but look natural. In other words, a light on ground looks like a light and the air it looks like a pin prick of light. Where as in FSX the lights look like a big map grid of light from higher, and lower they sometimes look like balls or globs of light. So, this is improvment over what I have seen...

4. I can say that X10's interface menus are a learning curve and they seem somewhat old in design. They remind me of Lightwave 3D vs Maya 3D Graphic Animation programs. Lightwave is textural and Maya is graphical icons. So, you read Lightwave and look at Maya. Yes, FSX is also textural, but it has a somewhat iconic interface feel to it, where X10 is all text boxes, buttons, radial dial buttons, sliders and number tickers. If you can get use to that, then X10 is easy. Let me say, I chose and use Lightwave, so that says I chose text over icons years ago, but doing it in a sim is a little different; especially, when you use Lightwave 24"-36" from your eyes on three LCD Displays, and you use the Sim that is on three 8'x10' (8'x29' total) DLP Projected images. You think bigger is better...nope, not with the textural intefaces (it's because they're made to be read and not displayed; it's a difference between Arial over something like Times New Roman or Serif vs Sans Serif). My point is this, you will have to setup your entire X10 sim on one LCD Display, and then do the three projectors/curved screens last.

Finally, I took a few photos in warped mode, but I think a video will be better. However, I want to go through the XPUIPC setups next, as well as tweak X10 to death before making a video. Right now it feels like I just went from "oh man is this ever going to work" to "OMG this is really working!" So, it's a big jump, and to actually fly it...it's like having cake and eating it too (although, it's a messy cake right now).

Thanks Scott for calling me today as that was the nudge I needed to look at it and try to do something with it!

Bob, you should get an X-Plane 10 order in now, as Scott checked into some retail places that use to carry it, but nothing on the shelves. Plain to spend $80 or so for it...

One last note for everyone; you've all heard of using 3 computers, with three projectors and with three copies of Sol7. Well, guess what, X10 includes what Sol7 does, so X10 times three equals around $240 and Sol7 cost how much per copy? Yes, you still need three computers and three projectors, but look at all the money you'll save without buying Sol7. Sol7 is great in all regards, but I am just saying that X10 has this aspect designed and included within X10...for less cost.

BSD

[MLeavy737]

 Bob, they actually will.. Or should! Lol.  There based on FSUIPC  variables so anything based on them will work using XPUIPC. 

I need to get some better graphics for ya for them. Im not happy with the bitmapped image that yours uses at all! Im just going to have to make them in straight procedural Opengl.  Too many projects and not enought time! Ill get on it again though!

Mike L

[blueskydriver]

Hi Bob,

Got caught in the middle of postings, but your gauges should work and that all depends on the method of the interface. If the IO Cards you use work with FSUIPC, then they'll work with XPUIPC because the latter is exactly the same as the former in most respects from what I've read. I don't think it'll be that hard...

In fact I see Tyler is on right now, and that he had those IO cards he made. Tell him to do two things, one send me a set to test out for him in X10, and two, he needs to design and market them for X-Plane 10 (or higher). After reading the Sim Magazines and other online news, X-Plane 10 is for sure going to be the next big thing. Even though Austin is an update freak, he'll slow that down after a lot of third-party developrs get onboard. FSDreamTeam joined X-Plane at the beginning of the year, as well as one or two other big names. Therefore, what we've seen in FSX will be seen in X-Plane but better because X-Plane does take advantage of Multicore CPUs and GPUs more than FSX ever will...which is never.

I'll end with saying that I did not even turn on the SLI mode on my video card, nor changed any settings of my Nvidia 580 card that is setup for FSX. So, I wonder how that will play into things. Like turning a GPU from the "hey, I am doing nothing here" to "HOLY COW BUD THROW SOME ICE ON ME"!

BSD 

[blueskydriver]

I attached some photos of the X10 across the 3 screens. Planning to get some better ones, as well as some video footage later.

Otherwise, I did some checking over at X-Plane and found the X737 link here:

http://www.eadt.eu/index.php?aircraft-for-x-plane-9

It says version 9, but the webpage has version 10, as well as liveries and other aircraft. Oh, by the way, it's FREE!

Here is the link for XPUIPC (which is also free):

http://www.tosi-online.de/XPUIPC/Home.html

Finally, I know a lot more people will likely be following this thread (at least I hope so), but all I ask is this:

-Pursue X10 for yourself, post your findings, and help all of us together to make X-Plane better for the community has a whole.

BSD

[fdspcos]

Update: Found info regarding why the NTHUSIM is not correcting and that is due to X10's most recent update caused problems for the NTHUSIM stack of the OpenGL, so NTHSUIM is not loading up correctly. It is being looked into now... Good news is it has worked in the past for X9 and X10.

More to follow later...

BSD

I think you will find that this has been one of the long running complaints about XP. Updates that arrive and things not working any longer, not a lot of detail and a lot of work for the other vendors to sort.
I know Enrico you used to struggle with this and in the earlier days avoided XP for this reason. I am not up to speed on PM these days so that may have changed.
It would be fantastic to have more options for visuals.. there are some compelling reasons why XP is an intersting option. Those that attended the FDS Open House found out quickly that XP played a role in both Matt Ford and James Prices setups. Matt using the flight modelling to cue a high level image generation (IG) system.. James using XP for flight modelling and visuals....
I think this is a great path that JC is on here.. he needs others trying as well.
I know Steve and I will take a run at XP this year in our Demo Sim.
Peter