4 dumb questions by newbie

[zimmy]

As you may or may not know I'm a newbie to Cockpit building.
I have a list of dumb questions to get off my chest to get the ball rolling.
I hoping a few of you could answer as best you can or lead me in the right direction.
I have embarked on a B747 pit and have the option of a retired real world pit or building from scratch.

Dumb Q1. Why is there so many posts and builds on B737 and nearly nothing on B747?

Dumb Q2. How will I get my built and wired pit to communicate with my sim (probably X-plane) ie. how does it all communicate? Ive seen a lot of info on usb boards/ master boards etc by various builders & suppliers but no newbie instructions.

Dumb Q3. How many computers do I need, I've seen 1,2,3,5. What is a good number and allocation?

Dumb Q4. If I build a hydraulic platform how can I get that to talk to my sim?

Thank you for humouring me with a response and please keep watch for my dumb Q II post

[mickc]

No such thing as a dumb question !

Dumb Q1. Why is there so many posts and builds on B737 and nearly nothing on B747?

Several reasons, some are: 
1) Because the 737 is a far more common aircraft - over 7,500 737s have been built over the years, compared to around 1,500 747s, so retired aircraft parts are more readily available.
2) There is a much bigger market available for 737 replica products, hardware and software to build simulators.
3) The physical size of a 747 deck limits a lot of home builders.

Dumb Q2. How will I get my built and wired pit to communicate with my sim (probably X-plane) ie. how does it all communicate? Ive seen a lot of info on usb boards/ master boards etc by various builders & suppliers but no newbie instructions.

Can of worms question there....

Newbie instructions are almost non-existant.  The best way to learn is by scouring forums such as this one, and reading how others have done it.

There are many options for hardware interfacing with your chosen Sim software.
You will find most builders have the hardware talking through interface boards to a 3rd party software package that simulates the complex systems of the airliner.  This in turn talks to the chosen flight Sim software.

Open cockpits offers very affordable hardware, and free software to run it and communicate with your flight sim, but you need to program it all yourself.
It's not that difficult to do, and there is a lot of people that can help on different forums with it.

Other vendors such as FDS also make 747 panels and modules that can be integrated with various software packages

Dumb Q3. How many computers do I need, I've seen 1,2,3,5. What is a good number and allocation?

This depends on how complex your sim will be.  Some builders use just 1 or 2 PCs, others can use up to 4 PCs just for the visuals alone!

For example, I run 7 pcs, 3 for the main visuals, 1 runs the passenger window visuals and IFE System, 1 for the Capt/ FO displays, 1 runs Prosim and hardware interfacing, and 1 for the sound, communications and instructor station.

Also depends if you are using old junker PCs or building new ones, as new ones can do the work of 2 or 3 old clunkers.

Dumb Q4. If I build a hydraulic platform how can I get that to talk to my sim?

You would need software to control the motion hardware by using the motion cues coming from the sim.
BFF design and X-Sim.de both cater for this, but it is designed for electric motor drives rather than hydraulics.
I suggest you might want to add up what the project will cost before you go down that road though.
You can always add the motion later

[Kennair]

Hi Sharif, Mick has given excellent answers for you and I completely agree.  The first thing a newbie discovers in this hobby is there are no clear instructions for newbies    However the aircraft you have chosen has a large following, no aircraft is as large as the 737 but never the less the 747 is fairly well served.  I started out building a Pilatus PC12 and guess how much info or panel support is out there for this aircraft, next to none!  No aircraft precludes you from having to research and research and research some more I'm afraid as every build is slightly different depending on your chosen hardware and interfacing choices. 

For the 747 Flightdeck Solutions produce the best and most supported hardware but at a price.  Then there are real parts converted for simulation or build your own from scratch.  All of these options you'll find here in this forum.  I have a friend here in Perth that has built a 747 cockpit using all 3 of the above options for various parts and its looking very nice indeed.  If you like I can pass on your contact details so you can pick his brains.  He started out 2 years ago and new nothing of FSX, FSUIPC or interface cards but had a dream, now he has an almost fully functional 747 cockpit and currently building a curved screen for his 3 x HD projectors.  The big thing lacking with the 747 is the avionics software.  Currently Project Magenta is the only fully functional addon avionics software until Aerowinx update to FSX, however as my friend is doing, you have the other option of running the PMDG 747 on two computers using Wideview, one displaying the outside and the other displaying undocked panels.  This is what I did for the PC12.

Many options but usually not enough time to investigate them all, just do your best and keep asking questions, and I agree, the only dumb questions are the ones you DON'T ask.

Ken.

[sagrada737]

Hello Sharif,

Yep...  It's absolutely true that there are no dumb questions.  Additionally...  Vision and perseverance knows no boundaries, and can move you to new heights - despite levels of information and the difficulties associated with the road less traveled.  If you truly desire to build a full-scale cockpit, whether a 747 or a 737 - nothing will be able to stop you from proceeding with what is truly in your heart.

That said, there are significant practical issues.  Much of the comment thus far is sound and should be heeded.  To add to the mix, I thought I would throw in a slightly different thrust and perspective.

To state it bluntly, one simply can't get to a completed full-scale Sim Project without the funds to support such a project.  With that in mind, you will not be able to come to a budget number until you establish the full specification for such a project, and deeply consider what you will buy, and what you plan to build.  In this regard, a lot of these kind of projects get started as a dream and end up in a nightmare for failure to properly plan. 

In addition, taking a sectioned 747 cockpit and converting it into a Sim is not without its own issues, which can be directly translated into time and money.  In many ways, it is far easier to construct a "purpose-built" Sim from scratch, than to hack-out an existing shell to realize the form-factor.  Each have their merits and compromises.  As the road signs state...  "Proceed at your own risk."   ...and we haven't touched on the complexity and expense of a full-motion platform!

Also, if you have a family, know up-front that such a full-scale Sim Project is a time-hog.  It can sap your resources, including precious time with family and friends - so be forewarned, and take care to balance your priorities.

Planning a full-scale Sim Project is key!  I speak with a degree of experience in building my own Sim Project (still underway), in addition to having personally built full-scale experimental aircraft, to include a helicopter and a complex turbine airplane.   Planning requires a lot of research and time to yield detailed information.  One of the best ways to gain perspective and knowledge before you jump in with both feet,  is to pay a visit to someone who has already built up a full-scale Sim, like what you desire to build.  If its a 747, then find someone on the planet that has successfully accomplished building such a Sim that actually works, and physically go visit them to see the project in person and explore as much detail as possible.

Forums like this one are nice for fellowship and some aspects of planning/design/construction detail, and so on...   It is good you have come to this place for some replies to your questions.  But forums alone will not get you there.  You will have to dig for information at every turn, and unless you have done a similar large scale project like this, you will almost surely run into some pot-holes along the line.  This is why it is so important to connect with someone in your local area if possible, to explore the myriad aspects of building and operating a full-scale Sim.  Frankly, I would say that it is different than what you might imagine it to be.  I say this because there is a certain amount of glamor and associated with such large projects, and they tend to mask reality, and take on a life of their own - at least in our minds.  In this regard, if you don't research carefully and fully understand the scope of such a project - you may find yourself with a bunch of parts and a great deal of frustration - along with a lot less money in your wallet.

I think it is a true statement, that everyone that has built up a full-scale Sim Project does not come completely clean with all the heartache and difficulty that it took to get a properly working Sim - I too am guilty of this.  It is human nature that we want to encourage others to take-on such big projects without too much mention of the downside.  It sometimes becomes difficult, if not impossible to communicate to someone the emotional side of going through the years of planning/design/construction associated with completing a large-scale Sim Project.  Therefore, encouragement and best intentions aside, understand that you will still have to go through the trenches if you embark on such a Sim Project.

If money is not object, then you might have an easier time, as you can buy various goods and services to help speed things along and get where you want to go with a Sim Project.  However, money never takes the place of personal challenge and hard work.  But this too has its limitations, as you still need to come up to speed on the technology in order to integrate and get all the systems operational, with potentially huge learning curves.  You will need planning skills, computer systems skills, software application skills, system integration skills, construction skills, and the list goes on.  This is why you don't see too many completed full-scale Sim Projects.  They do exist however, and as I said, you would be wise to visit someone's Sim Project that is underway, as well as one that is complete and has been operational for a period of time.

In addition, working with another person on such a Sim Project goes a long way to increase motivation and problem solving.  When one falls down, the other can pick him up - and two people tend to sharpen each other.

Please don't take all this as negative.  Quite the opposite, as I too encourage you to join in the fun!  I started my 737 Sim Project a year ago and it is one of the best projects I have ever undertaken - not without many of the issues I have already mentioned, but great fun and a wonderful learning experience.  The idea of building up a full-scale Sim Project has caught many of us to the fullest of our capability, and we are all pretty much in the same boat, with the same dreams and aspirations - some of which have actually come true.

So...  If none of this has detoured you, then full-steam ahead.  We are all here to help as much as such a forum like this practically allows.  Keep us posted on your decisions and planning progress toward building up your very own full-scale Sim Project.

Keep your airspeed up!

Mike

[milezee]

Hi,
as above, there are no dumb questions!

I'm a relative newbie, I'm in the early stages of a 737NG, first panels being built, flightdeck frame work being built, a couple of PCs up running systems and interfaces. Visuals are still a long way down the road. If I fancy some fun before that I fire up FSX/PMDG737 on my laptop.
My point here though is that I spent 12-18 months trawling websites like this (I like this one ;-) )
I've got a pretty clear plan now, although I make a fair bit of it up as I go along. Do your research, it will save you some headaches later, although there will doubtless be headaches along the way, thats part of the trip.

[zimmy]

Well guys I'm gob smacked at all the replies, thank you so much.

Inline with your advice I'm spending the next few weeks researching. I'm a project manager by training so feel compelled to research and set time & budget targets.

I appreciate everyone's advice and honest opinions.

The idea all started when my mates and I where approached to relocate a complete retired 747 (less engines) halfway across Thailand and turn it into a floating restaurant. Common sense prevailed when we worked out the cost of chopping it up moving it and re-assembling it verses building a replica on site. This was a couple of years ago and the plane still sits there waiting for a useful existence. The latest idea was to dismantle and sell the scrap and keep cockpit for personal use and maybe down the track as a tourist attraction. The tourist attraction idea stacks up well but in the space of less than a week I'm leaning more towards a full cockpit build from scratch.

I'll be there late February to do something with it if anyone has any ideas!

Anyhow enough of my rambling, Thanks again.

Here is some photos of the bird in waiting!

[bernard S]

Hi   if can add my 2 cents worth..

Australia is the "Mecca" of 74 builders there are more 74 builders there than anywhere else and most are not using real parts. my suggestion is as follows...( talk to Aerosim solutions and ask to be put in contact with Blake and Greig).. Matt Sheil is also there and his sim sings and dances this is depending on the level of how much airplane you want...or think you want!

Software.... Do not bother with anything else other than PSX why? Because it is its own dedicated "Office" and only requires the out the window view thus you pick which program to use for your visuals  i.e X Plane,MSFX or PD3...

Then you have to decide are you going to use the aircraft wiring or pull it all out if using the aircraft wiring do you have the WDM? no point going anywhere near the aircraft wiring without that!  (and that's like finding rocking horse do do)

Now that's the easy part of a 74 build.. You wanted to know why there are limited 74 builders as opposed to to 73.. Money money money money did I mention money? you just have to look at it and it will demand you pay her a 1k for the pleasure very expensive bit of kit....  A 74 build is really expensive lets take your flight deck as an example (bare)

Lets say on a good day you get a deck for 10-20K depending on who supplies it.. then you have to ship it that's another 20k.

what should you get in the deck for lets call it 40K with shipping and taxes.

MIP ( main Instrument stand) not populated might include the landing gear if lucky)
Glare  not populated but might include the wing plates
Throttle Unit ( might have the lightplates attached flaps and spolier
Yokes and Rudders
Carpet
Trim ( but some bits will be missing) but may not have the lights etc etc
P7 and P6 curcuit bkers
Overhead
bookcase

dont even think about windows :-)

and you are going to have to cut it to fit in container just aft of the windows now its lost its size and you will have to add back lenght to go past the overhead frame  will the deck include the clutch with the TQ will it include the reducers in the TQ? etc etc plus a trip to see what you are actually purchasing then there is space constraints  a 74 does not fit a car garage so you will need its own space.

And all that before you start populating the office, then if your project all goes south what are you going to do.. the 74 market is small and limited...You will find yourself so heavily invested in your build that you will have to complete it.. how much time to build a 74 on a do it yourself basis 3-10 years to have it complete.

You said you wanted motion oh OMG  I have gone down that route and thats a nightmare compared to the the stuff above.. then there is visuals etc etc

Not to put a stop to what you want but its a huge undertaking if you want limited trouble go with a 73 its fully supported and way less expensive.