More (or similar) 836x overheat issues

[blueskydriver]

Hi Jim,

Okay, no worries about misreading his email, as I still believe it is related to the powered hub. I searched Leo's website too find a amperage requirement for the card and there is no data on it, nor in the instructions manual.

Being that your USB Hub puts out or can put out up too .5 amp or 1/2 of amp per port, that makes me think it has been the issue all along. Knowingly, the card uses 5 volts, but it must have an amp range and a limitation. Could you ask Leo what that is for this paticular card?

Furthermore, it does say in his Instruction Manual to plug it straight into the PC and there is no mention of using a powered hub; however, he really should state if a powered hub can be used and what is the limitations of using one, if any...

Best Regards,

John

[Mach7]

John,

I agree, I think the powered hubs were doing something with the board causing it to act this way.

With respect to getting exact values, I have tried to ask these questions, and understandably  they are a bit hesitant to release specific information.

I do know that they upgraded the board in June last year and added additional input protection, so maybe this is not a just a "one - off" issue.

-Jim

[Mach7]

Hello John,

Looks like the problem is back again,

I sent Bodnar Electronics an email, here is the body of the text;

Hello Michael,

Ok...I thought my problem was gone but it's back again, however I have a bit more information.

So at present the 836x board is plugged directly into the computer, bypassing any powered hubs. Whenever I power up the computer, I usually place my finger lengthwise across the board so I am touching all three chips in order to check for heat buildup.

When I powered up the computer, the board began to heat after a couple of seconds following the windows screen booting up. In fact the the only chip on the board that seems to get warm/hot is the first chip inline right next to the usb plugin on the board itself. The other chips do not seem to get warm...at least not what I can tell as I unplug the board quite quickly when the situation begins to happen.

Now with respect to the above paragraph, when I initially turned the computer on, the screen "froze" and displayed "starting widows" whilst at the same time refusing to boot up. I waited for quite a while until I realized the computer needed to be reset, When I did reset it, the system booted normally, however once the windows home screen was established, the aforementioned overheat occurred.

This computer boots quite quicky, and this is the first instance I needed to use the reset button. I am not sure if the cause was the 836x board, however it seems more than likely that it was.

Having said that, it would be good information to know which ouputs that that chip controls so I can better troubleshoot my devices.

Regardless, I immediately unplugged the board, (pulled the usb cable out), and the board cooled rapidly. I then re-inserted the cable, and the board was fine. I rebooted the computer, and brought FS9 online and everything worked perfectly.

I ran the board for a good hour, and no overheat situation was present, and all pots and switches worked perfectly fine.

I tried to reset the computer a couple of times, still everything was fine and the board was nice and cold.

Another thing that crossed my mind was the USB cable itself, I believe it to be a 2.0 cable as it has a white colored plasitc end on the USB-A connection, and I am plugging it into the port on my computer that has a female colored 'blue' input.

I am not sure if that would cause a problem for the board or not, however it still works fine from that port when it is not heating up.

Any thoughts?

-Jim

[blueskydriver]

Hi Jim,

This is rather amazing, too hear that a card is getting overheated during the computer's POST or power on self test. The card is designed for 5v and 500ma, so it should not be drawing anymore then that.

Did you do the firmware update for the card? Not sure this will change anything, because it says the firmware is a name changer for the card when seen in the boot loader. I suggest you do it just too be up too par.

How about trying this, unplug any other add-on cards or USB devices, as well as get a new USB 2.0 cable. Then start the computer and see what happens. If your card heats up during the POST again, it has too be the 0836x card, I would think. However, since we're still troubleshooting, I would try unplugging everything from the card itself (no connections) and then just plug in the USB for it straight too the computer (no other cards) to see what happens during the POST.

You could really go all out and do this: reconnect one connection to the card one at a time, then shut the computer down and not just a restart. Then keep doing this until the overheat starts up. As for the first microchip inline with the USB port being the only one that heats up, can you look at the PCB.dwg to follow which parts of the card are controlled by that chip? If for example, it is for certain connections, then I would track those ones and see if there is an issue with one of them.

Here is the link:

http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836X/BU0836Xsmt_RevD.zip

Couple of other things, and here is why. If you had one card overheat and go bad already, I keep thinking it has too do with one of 3 likely problems: the USB power source, which you moved the card from the hub to directly to the PC, the USB cable itself, or any connections hooked up to the card. Now, I know you checked them all before, but two questions: do any of the switches, pots or buttons have metal casings, if so Leo's instructions say to ground the metal casings; the second question is, I know you already unplugged everything and plugged them back in one at a time, but did you shutdown the computer each time? If not, do that this time. Oh, did you change out the USB cable from the other overheated card? I think you said that you did, but I just wanted too make sure.

Lastly, do you have anything plugged into +5v output from the card, either as a power source for something else or by mistake maybe? Here is a link to the pic:

http://www.leobodnar.com/shop/index.php?main_page=popup_image_additional&pID=180&pic=3&products_image_large_additional=images/4BU0836X_04.jpg

look at the blue highlighted area, unplug anything from that port for now.

Best Regards,

John

Ps we'll figure this out sooner or later Jim. I am more intrigued by this now, so I want too see it to the end. 

[blueskydriver]

Hey Jim,

What type of motherboard do you have and what is the model make and number? Also, have you made any firmware changes to it?

John

[blueskydriver]

Hey Jim,

I looked at your pics again, and just to clarify for my sake, here are a few questions:

1. You show a large connection breakout board in front of the card, so are your wires going from the card to the breakout board then the switches, pots and etc, or is this breakout board for something else?

2. If this breakout board is a part of the setup, I am wondering about it's connections. Not to say it cannot be done this way, but I myself would make straight connections from the switches and etc to the card.

3. By chance are any of the switches, pots or etc being used to do multifunctions via hardware? In other words, is anything else connected too any of the switches, pots and etc, that might cause issues. There are examples of people doing this where a switch could be sending the same single to two different places; one example, a switch is used to turn on the aircraft batteries via software and it is hard wired to turn on a computer supply to light up back panels and etc.

4. I see a rather large barrel shaped device connected to the right side of the card, what is this used for? I see it in the breakout board pic as well, is that a meter of some sort?

5. The mounting screws used to mount the card to the position it is in seem a little big, did you have the last card located in the same place using the same screws? I ask because I am thinking about something touching the pins on the back of the card...a long shot, but you never know.

Okay, I will check back with you later...

John

[Mach7]

Hi John,

This is the only time it started getting warm during the computers post self test. I did have the board get hot as well once as I was shutting the computer down as well, so maybe there is a connection there somewhere.

There is no firmware with the card, its basically just plug and play.

My next step is to do as you say. Remove all connections and then try them one at a time.

With respect to the pots. All have metal casings, however they are mounted in a wood holder and are very well isolated from additonal ground sources.

The card that you show on your link must be the updated 2016 version. Mine is a 2009 design that I purchased about a year ago. Again this makes me suspect as Leo advises the new card(s) have extra protection hardware, whatever this means. Also the old cards, or the one that I have, does not have a dedicated 5 volt output.

To answer some of your question;


I looked at your pics again, and just to clarify for my sake, here are a few questions:

1. You show a large connection breakout board in front of the card, so are your wires going from the card to the breakout board then the switches, pots and etc, or is this breakout board for something else?

The breakout board is a bunch of terminal blocks stacked one ontop of another. One strip contains the + side and the other the – to the board. In the case of a pot, one connection is the power, one the control, and the other the ground. I designed it this was for ease of connection as I built my sim up and added more inputs.

2. If this breakout board is a part of the setup, I am wondering about it's connections. Not to say it cannot be done this way, but I myself would make straight connections from the switches and etc to the card.

I have checked and double checked all the connections on the board and they all go where they are supposed to.

3. By chance are any of the switches, pots or etc being used to do multifunctions via hardware? In other words, is anything else connected too any of the switches, pots and etc, that might cause issues. There are examples of people doing this where a switch could be sending the same single to two different places; one example, a switch is used to turn on the aircraft batteries via software and it is hard wired to turn on a computer supply to light up back panels and etc.

I actually tried this a long time ago with the board, but it did not work. So all inputs to the board just operate that specific function.

4. I see a rather large barrel shaped device connected to the right side of the card, what is this used for? I see it in the breakout board pic as well, is that a meter of some sort?

That barrel looking device is just a pushbutton switch used to introduce some additional functions and see how they work before wiring back to my simulator.

5. The mounting screws used to mount the card to the position it is in seem a little big, did you have the last card located in the same place using the same screws? I ask because I am thinking about something touching the pins on the back of the card...a long shot, but you never know.

The scews that you see are very small and do not even touch the sides of the drilled holes in the board.

I have now sort of backtracking my steps...that is to say what what was the last item I connected before the board started giving me problems. Although not documented, the nosewheel steering is the only one that sticks out in my mind.

I have since disconnected the steering pot and tried the sim last night after I emailed you. It worked fine last night, I will try again before I go to work and see if the results are the same.

-Jim

[Mach7]

My mistake John,

I do have that 5 volt output on my board, however I have left it blank with no input or wire going to the terminal block assembly.

--Jim

Forth boot up now with the nose wheel steering pot disconnected and so far so good

[blueskydriver]

Hey Jim,

Looks like you might be onto the problem; hopefully, this is it. Consequently, I was thinking of another method to prevent random overheat/over voltage situations. The USB cable could be spliced and you would add in a fuse holder to the +5 volts wire, then place a +5 volt 500mA fuse in the holder; thus, if the card tries to pull more power then that, the fuse will blow and save your card.

Of course this is all piece of mind actions that you normally don't need too do, but there are a lot of builders who do this in one form or another (hint, back lighting panels and power sources). So, once you find the true problem, you could still add the fuse just in case of future issues...

John

[Mach7]

John

That is actually a good idea, it would also give me a huge piece of mind and would allow me to troubleshoot the problem without fear of damaging the board.

Can u actually buy such s  small fuse? And once i cut the cable, how do i determine tge 5 volt wire?

[Trevor Hale]

Likely it will be the red wire..  Usually USB Ports are standard cable colours...  In essence you could buy a usb A Male and USB A Female connector and just make a joiner yourself on a small PCB.

and add your own fuse

[blueskydriver]

Hey Trevor,

Thank you for replying, I had some things come up today that I couldn't respond right away...

Jim, go to Mouser Electronics and lookup 500ma inline fuse or a 500ma circuit breaker. Something like this here:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Eaton/BK-GDA-500MA/?qs=OJFHm2hVE4G8P0JfaXsBEQ%3D%3D&gclid=CKzT5Oy1pNICFZS6wAodVzcGMA

That one you soldier to the wires or a small PCB board, you would have to unsoldier to replace it.

The other way is look for an autmotive fuse holder and buy the fuse to fit it. Here an example of one:

https://www.delcity.net/store/AGC-Panel-Mount-Fuse-Holder/p_800419.h_800420.r_IF1003?mkwid=se6pKVrgO&crid=38094426869&mp_kw=&mp_mt=&gclid=CLz4y-icpdICFY66wAodPrEBFw

John

[iwik]

James,
The chip thats heating up is the microprocessor. One suggestion is to place a
multimeter on the 5v line of the bodnar board and when its o/heating check
to make sure voltage is not above 7.5v absolute max. Should be about 5v.
Although i think the other chips would heat up as well.
I cant see from your wiring, do you use shielded cable for the  analogue inputs?.
Best practice is to use shielded cable.
If you are going to start removing cables i would suggest starting with analogue
inputs.
Are you noticeing this o/heating only on switch or can it happen after the unit has been running?
Just my 2c worth
Les

[Trevor Hale]

I Did a lot of reading on this subject last night to see if I could help you out.  Apparently the USB standard is to have some sort of built in resistors into the cables to prevent your USB's from drawing too much power.  Have you tried replacing your usb cable with a different one?

Cheapy Cables neglect the standard to save costs..

[Mach7]

Hello guys.

Again thanks for all of your input.

When i get home i will change out the usb cable.

I am confide t we will solve this problem

Jim

[Mach7]

Hello Everyone,

I have not changed out the USB cable as of yet, however I did disconnected the nosewheel steering pot, and for the past week, after I get home from work,  I have been booting up the computer for 5 mins or so checking the  836x board for heat , (as this problem usually occurs on initial start up).

So far everything is working normally, however I am not breaking out the champagne as of yet.

The nosewheel steering pot is the only variable as it is from an RC Servo motor and would be the only odd man out when it comes to pots fixed to my sim.

Although the ohms seem reasonable, maybe there is something I am overlooking with this particular device.

Anyway, I will keep checking and testing and update when I have more information, good or bad.

Thanks again guys for your help so far

-Jim

[blueskydriver]

Hi Jim,

Glad too hear things are getting narrowed in... So, I must ask why are you using a RC Servo for the nose wheel steering? Are you motorizing the nose wheel for simulated movement (thinking like the trim wheels here)?

I always thought the nose wheel steerng handle did not move on it's own, but it only moved when the pilot uses it too steer during low speed taxi, just prior to TO and right after landing.

Since I am majorly into RC planes, I can tell you almost for sure that has too be your problem; assuming, you're powering the servo from the 836x card. I see this in RC a lot...you have a bad servo and it keeps drawing the max voltage/amps from the receiver battery, killing the battery pretty quick too only end up in a plane crash (dependng on which servo it is). Also, if the servo is not bad, but it's trying to hold a position for whatever it's hooked up to and that hold position is right at the torque/load rating, you'll be sucking a lot of amps through the card.

Just to check, what is the model name and number of the servo?

If you believe it is this servo causing the problem, but you still want to use it, just place a fuse between the + side of the servo and the + side of where you've made the connection to card. Make sure the fuse voltage is only 5volts and .5 amp (500ma), that way you stay within the limits of the card.

Best Regards,

John

[Mach7]

Hello John,

I should clarify...

I am only using the pot from that servo motor (Hitec). nothing else.

My original engine gauge set up was using the RC chip and DC motor to modify my mechanical engine gauges using Open Cockpits DC servo boards, this left me with a handful of potentiometers. as I was using the  existing pot in the mechanical engine gauge for operation.

The tiller steering is connected to one of these extra pots for nws operation.

-Jim

[Mach7]

Hello Everyone,

For troubleshooting, I have since disconnected my nosewheel steering pot, and the problem seems to have gone away.

This pot was removed from an RC servo, so it was always the 'odd man out', my gut always suspected this to be the issue as the other pots where the sliding type, or the rotary type removed from an old joystick controller.

I have checked the pot and the ohms reading seem to be fine, but who knows.

I started my computer over 10 times yesterday trying to duplicate the board overheat, and it stayed nice and cool.

I also moved the 836x boards USB input directly to the computer. This caused some unexpected issues with windows start up, (the "starting windows" message would appear and the windows logo above it would freeze as it was forming).

In conversation with Jetline systems, (the manufacturer of the computer), they advised too many USBs plugged directly into the computer would most definitely cause this issue, and advised moving the board back to a powered hub...which i did and the problem went away.

I will do more testing today, but so far so good!

-Jim

[Mach7]

Just an update on my 836x overheat problem,

By removing replacing the pot for the nosewheel steering, the problem has vanished:)

Although the RC servo pot seems compatible when checked with an ohms meter, there must be something that gives the board a bitter taste, or maybe the pot itself was suspect.

Nonetheless, since my last report everything is working fine. I replaced the pot with a spare one I had from an old microsoft joystick teardown and everything is working within tolerance.

On another note, I have recently had some computer boot issues, and in conversation with Bodner Electronics this seems to be a known issue with the joystick board.

There is a fix using an additional USB output upgrade, however I have relegated to unplugging the board and then plugging it back in after the boot process is complete.

This seems to work fine for now.

I want to thank everyone on the forum who gave me positive input.

My advise to 836x users is stay away from pots taken from RC servo motors!

So this is a bit of a pivotal moment for me, as simulator progress was stopped until a solution could be found to this problem....

So for now, I only have about 4 more overhead panels to interface and the rest will be cosmetic, and maybe some upgrades along the way.

-Jim

[Mach7]

Ok...thought I had the problem fixed but I guess not.

At least I have an idea when the overheat starts!

Fired up the sim tonight, just sitting idle for half an hour or so...all of a sudden engine 4 begins to start all by itself...i check the board and it starts getting hot.

I unplug the board..let it cool, then plug it back in.

Engine 4 shuts down and everything is back to normal.

Ran the sim for an hour and a half with no board issues.

Now Bodnar electronics and everyone else is telling me that a bad or shorted switch will not cause the overheat.

The chip set that is getting warm supposedly is the control chip for the pots.

so.....WTF!

I have been chasing this for over a year now...and its getting the better part of me.

My only solution now is a total strip down and rebuild using brand new pots, switches and wires.

-Jim

[Mach7]

I should also point out that, in reviewing my troubleshooting notes, it is not always engine 4 that begins to start prior to the overheat.

once the elevator trim started to move full aft while the board began to overheat.

In other words, something is producing a signal to the computer in order to activate a flight control, or function that would otherwise be controlled by the 836x board prior to to the overheat.

Once the board is disconnected, and reconnected, everything is back to normal.

I dont think this is a computer issue, as I had the same symptoms with my previous computer.

[Mach7]

Hello Guys

I did some additional troubleshooting tonight, and I think my problem may have something to do with the computer itself....

Let me try and explain.

When I first bring flight sim online, everything works as per normal. I check all the inputs to the 836x board by cycling the spoilers, ailerons and elevators, and nose wheel steering etc..

After a short time, anywhere from 2 to 10 minutes, and without moving any lever, switches, or doing anything with the computer...engine 4 will start and the board will begin to get warm. I then disconnect the board, reconnect it, cycle the the engine back to fuel off, (to shut the engine down), and everything is back to normal.

The interesting thing here is that it seems as though the overheat occurs when the computer is 'dormat', or rather the aircraft is sitting at the button of the runway with all the engines off and not moving.

I first thought maybe the screen saver was interfering with something, but I changed the time from 5 minutes to 400 minutes and when I brought flight sim back online, engine 4 basically started right away with the associated board overheat.

I reset flight sim again and the same thing occurred, with engine 4 starting right away.

I  thought I was on to something, however on the third attempt I could not get the board to overheat.

I subsequently reset the screen saver to 30 minutes.

So...here is what I know for sure. When engine 4 starts all by itself, the board will begin to overheat, (more specifically the first computer chip on the board located next to the usb plug in). The other two chips stay nice and cold.

When the USB plug is removed and re inserted, the board does not continue to heat, (and I can now select thrust lever 4 to on and off and shut the respective engine down).

I am not sure yet if this aforementioned sequence of events will happen a second time without stopping and starting flight sim, (following the first overheat and USB plug cycling manuever).

It seems that the board does not have any issues when the simulator is "in motion"...that is to say, when the computer is 'active' and you are in flight mode, or moving, there does not appear to be any overheat issues....The issues seem to stem when the simulator is not in motion.

I am thinking there is something that the computer is doing after flight sim is online that is causing this issue....but the question is what....

Does this make any sense to anyone?

-Jim

[iwik]

Jim,
Do you have another analogue input board?. If so temp connect some pots  so you can still basically use it  and configure. Then see what happens. It seems you dont have to wait long before it faults.
Les

[Mach7]

Hello Les,

If you mean another 836x board?

I do have one, but it overheated and fried a long time ago from the exact same problem.

At least now there is some consistency associated with the overheat...ie computer idle....engine 4 starts automatically...board overheads...

There has to be a solution to the problem now that I can positively identify the symptons

-Jim