Circuit Breaker Challenge- B737 or other type

[blueskydriver]

Hey Everyone,

Knowingly, this topic has been touched on before and usually gets left in the not doable or pointless category; however, in my view it is the last frontier of building cockpit simulators. Imagine the actual logic and function for tripping of the circuit breakers (CB) on the CB panels of a B737 or any other type of aircraft that uses CB's really working. Already we've seen the working aspects of Engine and APU Start Switches that uses a relay to trip them into position(s), so I can see no reason why the CB's cannot work in the same regard.

Yes, this would need a way to work with current offsets that are used in Instructor Station procedures, but it also needs too be setup for just failures alone. For example, a logical aspect of any particular CB trip is caused by any items line tied to it, so if an item on that line randomly fails the CB should trip, and if it the CB gets reset it may or may not clear that failure, like on the real aircraft in question...

"If it can be done or even why should it be done?" is the general current response to this aspect of the cockpit; especially, with the overwhelmingly amount of CB's on some aircraft. However, I'd like too see this progress beyond "the why?" to the "it's done!" phase in spite of its downward undoable view, and that is why I called it a challenge. Someone needs too see this as a mole hill instead of the mountain it has been made into and thereby come up with a resolution.

Plus, with the amount of hardware options available to us these days, there must be a way to incorporate a piece into the CB function process. Or, maybe it is time to create new hardware in order to move CB operations to the forefront...hence the challenge title again. The question is can someone accept this challenge and come up with the software (and hardware if need be)?

Lastly, I don't know if the real airline simulator companies use CB functions or not, but if they do, we can learn from them. If not, imagine the opportunity for the person or company who perfects this. Thus, that should somewhat answer the target market question along with the home builders being a part of that. In other words, there are customers who could and would use this area of the simulator if it was available to us...we just need someone to take the mantle and run with it, just like other areas of the cockpit that have been done.

Best Regards,

John

[jackpilot]

Watch out John, breathing  JetA fumes...  not good for you !!

You had a peek at the back of the 727 C B panels I'm sure...
Duplicating that in a sim and hooking it to all circuits would be a "Bernardesque"
venture.
Only him can do that !
Just wait, He will chime in, ...he will 

[Trevor Hale]

John, the problem is the CB's don't have solenoids in them like the start switches..  They are a mechanical release when the current goes over the rated current.  so unless you feel like forcing an over current condition, (Which will likely let the majic smoke out of things in our world) I see no way you could "TRIP" the CB.

You could have all the wiring of your gauges running through the CB's though, and when you manually pull them out your would break the circuit going to that item.... Or you could tie each CB into an input card and when they are tripped they software logic would make those items inoperable..  thats all super easy, but having a failure tripping the CB, and likely your going to have bigger problems..  Imagine the size of the wire required to allow 10Amps of current at 24V without causing a fire but tripping the Breaker...  Eyecarumba.

Trev

[bernard S]

lololol at Jack   yup you correct here is the chime ALL of my P6/P7 CBs are fully operational

John , Trev is correct in what has to be done its a huge undertaking should you have simulated parts just figuring out the logic would be a lifetimes nightmare... not to mention getting it wrong makes for BBQ

[blueskydriver]

Hey Guys,

Yep, I agree this is no easy task; especially, using the real CB's. However, I was thinking in two different methods of pursuing this. First, I know the real CB's are based on different amperages that would trip, based on an over-amp situation, so if you think about the smaller 1amp CB's that are seen on the real panels, why not just use those ones only and just change the vauled labels on the front. The labels would be easy enough and buying cheap CB's that work in the same way could be purchased for $2-$10 range or you could even use 1/2 amp breakers.

Thus, the primary thing would be how do you get them to pop out and that is where a relay board could come in. Be it a board already made or someone were too make a new one, and yes, it would need a lot of outputs. Of course you still need a way to provide the state of the CB, is it in or out; in would be the normal state and out would be the abnormal state. So, a micro switch would be needed for each one along with the CB (unless the CB could be read somehow?).

Now, my second method is along the same line, but more mechanical in nature. You just need a low voltage, low amp (like 5v) magnetic actuator, some springs, some aluminum, a micro switch and time to make each one. My point is, this would work in the same manner of the CB and it's just a matter of labels for the amperage representation based on locations.

Next, is the logic and that would be the challenge. For example, let's say you have a random electrical fault based offset or if there are some fsuipc offsets that would work or even ones that might be done using keystrokes. Or, maybe like any other relay function where if x=? then do this or if x=? then do that (basic if/then statements). I know this would be limited at first, but given time and a good programmer, I believe it could be done easier and eventually, much cheaper. Look at the state of using real aircraft gauges, 10 years ago it was a long shot, 5 years ago it got popular, 1 year ago it hit main stream and cards like ardinuos (spelling) aided in this ease of making them work.

Lastly, getting the CB panels working will take time, but almost every aircraft uses some type of CB and may have one or more panels. So, that is why I think it is a challengeable project, that someone might want too take on...even if it takes 10 more years, it's just the idea of keeping the possibilities open and ongoing.

John

I attached some pics of what I am thinking about and I hope too get a video on YouTube to show how the mechanical one works...

[bernard S]

john    bud i hear ya     the kicker is really the aircraft logic... you have to be sure your software immulates the LRUs .. is my two cents

[jonesthesoftware]

another method is to put a relay across each CB and trigger that relay from an output card controled by your script. AN input can be used to monitor whether the CB is tripped.
Obviously the relay needs to be capable of carrying the tripping current of the CB. Best to use 0.5 amp CBs and change the labels
In the attached drawing I've shown Open Cockpits cards  but of course you can use whatever system you have.
regards
geoff

[phil744]

Sounds like a challenging project. want me to have a go?

[blueskydriver]

Hey Guys,

Yes Phil, please do. You, Geoff, Bernard, Trevor, Jack and all the other guys need to go for it and keep it going; this is what I was talking about...I know as a community we can accomplish anything.

John

[_alioth_]

Im new in this forum. I didnt know it.
Im Arturo, from Spain.

I have something to put here in this thread.
I have been working in building a circuit breaker panel last two months.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7u3pdHTc8I


I used some of the solutions I have read now here:
-Solenoids to trigger them with a spring.
-Microswitch.. In my case I have used reed sensor and magnets to read the real state positio of the circuit breaker.

Im using is A2A comanche software. It has functional circuit breakers.
The programming wasnt very dificult. I found the needed lvars. I wrote a lua script to send this values to arduino. I have used I2C protocol in Arduino so I only need two arduino pins for the 14 CB.  I could manage 64 breakers with only one arduino uno.

Arturo.

[blueskydriver]

AWESOME! Welcome to Cockpit Builders Arturo and what a great way to get started!

Please continue posting about your cockpit and more about the circuit breakers (CB). I believe you'll see a lot replies if you can help make this a reality for everyone. Almost all aircraft have CB's somewhere and from just a few to a whole lot of them, so your work will be valuable to all those who want too see operational CB's.

Are you familiar with FSUIPC yet? If not, take a look at that software and read all about offsets. It is the use of these offsets that most cockpits are based around (not all, but more so with the jet aircraft). The biggest hurdle will be triggering out the CB's based on the logic of the aircraft in question; in other words, the faults that trigger the CB's must be working correctly and the reverse logic for when you push the CB back in, must work as well.

However, don't let this hurdle be a road block, see it as the challenge of a lifetime...seriously, if you can make this happen you will become famous in the world of cockpit building (for sure in my world!).

Thanks again for joining and I look forward too seeing more From you.

John

[blueskydriver]

I watched your video and it is very inspiring! To see the CB's triggering and working on the push in side as well...OMG!

Additionally, are those real gauges in your other videos? If so, you need to start postng all about it because you'll be getting some questions for sure.

I notice you do not say anything in your videos, it would be better if you did. Do you speak English at all? Even if it's not the best, do try because there are other members from Spain who will help out with the translation. Or, just type and use Goggle translator.

Best Regards,

John

[navymustang]

I also want to say what a fabulous job you are doing. Very impressive.

[_alioth_]

Thanks for all those words!

Im using fsuipc! the LUA script that sends info to arduino is made with FSUIPC. I use a couple of bytes user free offsets to read and write positiones of the breakers. A2A has CB snatively so is way more easy. Example.. When I trigger HSI one.. the HSI stops wroking.
I dont know exactly when the CBs are triggers from their own. I supose A2A have program them randomly. They trigger time to time. In A2A docs dont say when or why.. I think is random.

So... I dont know why or when they will get triggered (depends on a2a software). But when this happens, the affected gauges will stop working. This programming is already done, in the arduino level.
If Gear motor CB triggers... gear motor doesnt move
If Starter CB triggers.. start motor doesnt move..
I have program a VM1000C engine monitor with air manager. If engine gauges CB triggers... Engine monitor goes off.
etc..
All of this is already done. I will post a vid to show you. I wil try to speak, but my english is really bad  (you can mute if it is annoying..  )


Most of the gauges you have seen in vids are real. Almost all of them come from and old AST300 simulator. I only have the gauges, not the whole simulator. Ok, I also have the yoke and pedals and I will use them.
HSI, vor, rmi, whisky compass are real ones. But I dont use the internal electronics.
The altimeter is a real one too. The "not real" ast300 altimeter "only" goes to 10.000ft. I have bought a real one (vacuum one), change all the inner mechanics, install absolute encoders, pots, dc motor.., and now I have a beautiful 35.000 range bendix altimeter
You can see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIf1hzhhvbQ

I use arduino to read inputs (pots, photoresistors, absolute encoders (which replace original synchro resolvers) and make things with outputs (darsonvals, DC motors, step motors, air cores, leds.. etc).

Arduino talks to the simulator (prepar3d), through link2fs:

prepar3d <-> FSUIPC <-> Link2fs <-> arduinos <-> gauges(inputs and outputs)

Im learning to program lua more and more, and now I am able to go without link2fs


All started one year ago. One year ago I didnt know anything about  Arduino, Lua, fsuipc, electronics, 3d print..
I always used the simulator with a joystick, that was all. I broke my left shoulder in a mountain bike race, and while I recovered I started to read and learn about this beautiful world of simpits..
Now Im hooked on it. I love it because it mixes many disciplines.

as 737...320 are to much for me.. my plan was to make a small (size), but very detailed (real, complex) panel. I first thought about realair lancair. Finally I decided to go with A2A comanche (small but real and complex).

Thanks for reading!

Arturo.

[Trevor Hale]

Im new in this forum. I didnt know it.
Im Arturo, from Spain.

I have something to put here in this thread.
I have been working in building a circuit breaker panel last two months.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n7u3pdHTc8I


I used some of the solutions I have read now here:
-Solenoids to trigger them with a spring.
-Microswitch.. In my case I have used reed sensor and magnets to read the real state positio of the circuit breaker.

Im using is A2A comanche software. It has functional circuit breakers.
The programming wasnt very dificult. I found the needed lvars. I wrote a lua script to send this values to arduino. I have used I2C protocol in Arduino so I only need two arduino pins for the 14 CB.  I could manage 64 breakers with only one arduino uno.

Arturo.

AWESOME!.  I never thought I would see the day.. Nicely done, and a great replica breaker.  GREAT JOB.