New Year Grumble - New Year, and New Trash

[Trevor Hale]

Aww shucks!!  LOL..  I appreciate that Mau..  I just want everyone to understand that this is a different site, and I hope it continues to grow.  None of us want the site to take a turn for the worse, and then it loose its lustre..  Cockpitbuilders is the Elite, and I want to keep it that way..

Trev

[Trevor Hale]

It makes complete sense to me. That's why I'm here instead of 'over there'...  ...and I won't be going back.

Thanks Mike, and I am glad you are here... too.

[jackpilot]

I like the building part of it too, but to me, it's just a means to an end. The flying. That's what I get the most enjoyment out of.

With you 100% on that.
I am really working my A** off to build an airliner cockpit because:
1) I am over 60 and Heavy Iron fun is out.
2) I love flying.(real and sim) A few days ago I had this wonderful experience (you know the kind of moment which pops out of nowhere but you know that you will remember for ever).
3000 feet,crisp clean and still air, the Aerobat flies itself, you jiggle the rudder pedals and the little bird wags its tail in the blue.... stupid hey? but it was being like a bird having fun..well, .some will understand!
3) I live in snow country, days are short, being outside is a challenge  for 5 months a year.

HENCE: the urge to have a full size cockpit to sit in (instead of going to the club/supermarket/ golf course) , prepare the flight, with all documents handy, avionics humming, Elevator music in the background , etc etc...this is my kind of fun ,.

I admit that building is a pleasure, because we have to do it for many components, and because it is the only way to know the beast and be able to fix it when needed, but I prefer to rely on competent vendors for what would take me ages to build myself, as my idea is to reach full flight status ASAP.

[geneb]

Trev, I've run simpits.org the same way.  The last thing I want is some goo brained vendor trying to tell me what to do, especially when I host the damn thing out of my house.

I would be so bold as to envision this review site as the "Consumer Reports" of the flight simulation hobby.  Beholden to nobody and brutally honest. (you know me Trev, subtle as a Daisy Cutter. )

I'd hand out WordPress accounts to those people that had hardware they wanted to review.  That way people would be responsible for their own authorship and would have the option of editorial assistance if they felt they needed it.

Anyway, think about it and get back to me on the side and we'll come up with something that will be guaranteed to annoy just about everyone.

g.

[shaneb]

I like your idea Trevor . . no bias, just the facts about a product.  Also like a site where everyone gets along and is accepted even if they are   "an oddball Lear builder"  among "big plane builders"         . . but I still get a lot of good info and ideas to use in my build, also really enjoy watching everyone's progress . .

[Bob Reed]

Trev, I've run simpits.org the same way.  The last thing I want is some goo brained vendor trying to tell me what to do, especially when I host the damn thing out of my house.

I would be so bold as to envision this review site as the "Consumer Reports" of the flight simulation hobby.  Beholden to nobody and brutally honest. (you know me Trev, subtle as a Daisy Cutter. )



I'd hand out WordPress accounts to those people that had hardware they wanted to review.  That way people would be responsible for their own authorship and would have the option of editorial assistance if they felt they needed it.

Anyway, think about it and get back to me on the side and we'll come up with something that will be guaranteed to annoy just about everyone.

g.

It's really been 10 years??!!! I remeber when you started that thing.. There was what 10 of us? Maybe not even? Time has sprinted by it seems..... I remeber the first thing I saw of yours as far as real parts went. A 747 throttle lever. Nothing else just the lever hanging on your garage wall....

[JWS]

We've seen the number of vendors growing the last years. That is good. When I started my plans on a modest sim in 2004, there was not much of a choice. Now there is a lot more competition. And yes there are vendors that sell products that "serious" builders do not want. But let's not forget that not everyone wants to build a 1:1 full scale, top off the bill, real looking, functioning and smelling cockpit. Apart from that, not every one is blessed with a big budget or a very understanding wife or a large garage.

The product in question would not get into my sim, but if someone is happy with it, let it be so. If some one wants my opinion about it, he can get it. But it is not for me to decide what people should buy. And we all make choices, how much to build our selves and what to leave to vendors.

Cheers,

JWS

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I'm still trying to find 'New Aircraft' air fresheners. 

[Aerosim Solutions]

Hi guys, this has really been an interesting chat and a good read, especially from a vendor point of view. Ivar struck a chord with me when he mentioned builders who become vendors which is basically what has happened to me. I am building high end quality products that the average builder wouldn't even think about buying. For instance, my throttle quads are pitched from US$3000 to US$3500. That's probably way out of reach for many so I think there is a valid market for the flimsy lightweight controllers that are available. My quads weigh about 7Kg (about 15Lbs) and there is about 70 hours of work goes into creating a couple of hundred pieces that make up a very heavy duty machine. I believe that the feel of the physical flight controls are very important to achieving the ultimate in immersion. My products are built with the passion I have for the hobby and the profit factor is a secondary consideration. I am thrilled to see my products appearing in builders pics across all forums, that is worth more to me than a few more bucks in the account!
I think there is a definate market for both types of product and competition is healthy for our hobby in general. I have been making simparts for three years now and I have never placed an ad anywhere!




Happy New Year to all Cockpitbuilder members from Gwyn - Aerosim Solutions

[warvet]

Without question Gwyn I will say, your crafsmanship and products are worth every cent you charge, and the customer is getting far more than they hoped for but to say you never advertised anywhere is not quite accurrate. Everytime you show a pic of your products or show a new one or talk about a customers review you are advertising. And the truly funny thing is you are getting the very best advertising you can because its a niche market and a selected market of your exact demigraphics, so who better. So do you advrtise ? Every chance you get should you? Yup how else will anyone know how to get your projects. Good luck in the New Year Gwyn.
Tim

[Aerosim Solutions]

Without question Gwyn I will say, your crafsmanship and products are worth every cent you charge, and the customer is getting far more than they hoped for but to say you never advertised anywhere is not quite accurrate. Everytime you show a pic of your products or show a new one or talk about a customers review you are advertising. And the truly funny thing is you are getting the very best advertising you can because its a niche market and a selected market of your exact demigraphics, so who better. So do you advrtise ? Every chance you get should you? Yup how else will anyone know how to get your projects. Good luck in the New Year Gwyn.
Tim

Cheers Tim and thank you for the kind comments! What I meant by never advertised is I've never paid for an ad! I keep getting enough orders to keep me busy and away from working on my own sim which is a bit frustrating. If I advertised properly I might get too much work and I'm not about to give up the day job just yet, another couple of years maybe. I have been buying machines and tools all year in preparation for the switch to fulltime but I have to pay off the house first before I 'retire' to the shed!
Next project starting this week - B737 MIPs with all sub panels x 2 (One is for me!)

Gwyn

[warvet]

I agree 100% Gwyn as I have in my Martial Arts instruction, never paid for an advertisement because I feel if you offer a solid quality product or service that exceeds expectations of your customers you will have more than enough business. You certainly are a perfect example of that Gwyn. As Phil is with Panels you are with everything else lol.You certainly would be my first choice if I needed something built, Phil my first choice in panels, Ivar my first choice in shells and putting it all together and Trevor, Gary , Mau, Yourself, Jack, Gene, Mike and all my other friends here to join me in flying it :)By the way whose the 340 TQ for Gwyn, its amazing.
All the best
Tim

[Aerosim Solutions]

Thanks Tim, it is great to be held in such regard and have my work recognised! The TQ was commissioned by a German guy who lives and works in Thailand, his name is Erhard and you can see his sim progress here - http://wallentins.com/Flightsimming.htm

Cheers Gwyn

[XOrionFE]

Gwyn,

The TQ is just amazing.  Truly!   The owner of that will be proud to have it as the centerpiece of their cockpit and I am sure will enjoy every moment flying it.   If I was building the 340 it would diffinitely be on my wish list (as well as Tim's overhead...) and looks like it would be worth every last penny.

I look forward to seeing more of your work and cant wait to see what you do with your 737 MIP.    I am building my 737 mip myself with the help of some top panels by OC (because I think laser engraving looks better than what my cnc router can accomplish).   

Regards,
Scott

[Waynesimstructor]

Dave, Chris and i have spoken about this topic a fair bit, and its "spot on".

I guess one of the overall messages is to keep this site for the builders. I know that as a builder i would want that.

But...remember...high priced gear does bring longevity to the table. (Such as this guys throttle quad that sparked the thread).  Remember nova and elite panels? I used to cringe at the price of that stuff but there was method in that madness (really good method).

Those tq's could be his nova panels?

But...if you get the thing home and its a wonky piece of crap...you wont be happy.

Sometimes you get your sim parcel and feel kinda ripped off...(as we were last year by one vendor...it was an absolute joke he might aswell have filled the box with mud and sent it to us) but then sometimes you instantly fall in love with the $2 piece of plastic that you just paid 500 for... why did you pay 500?...because its a part that would cost you $500 to develop and make yourself i guess. Or you have never stepped foot in an aircraft to make a copy.

At the end of the day its like evolution. The crap vendors are going to be found out and the good ones will keep getting bigger. Guys will get stung along the way sadly.

Immediate response?....a forum to subconsciously grade and discuss?...hmmmm scary stuff on so so so many levels. Theoretically it would be a great thing....if kept real.

Wayne, Dave.

[warvet]

Wayne,
Absolutely no disrespect meant here at all whatsoever and I 100% agree that bad crap is cheap and you get what you pay for but...WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AND WHAT DOES IT GOT TO DO WITH GWYN'S INCREDIBLE SKILLS AND QUALITY TQ? Sorry maybe Im just dense but to me what you had to say was pretty much syphoned down to this,
Dont buy crap yada yada we bought crap and got ripped off yada yada and crap is not the way to go! Yada yada more yada and say no to bad crap thats why we have a website to show the good from the crap is that pretty much correct? If so Im glad I get it and if not maybe it needs to be re explained in another area to better define your concerns. Sorry Ive never been known for my tact or diplomacy thats Trevor and Ivars dept, Im just trying to figure out what is it your really trying to say and why was it important enough to hijack Gwyn's TQ thread? Just askin
Tim

[dnoize]

Actually Gwyn Hyjacked Trevs topic about new vendors and the 'quality' that some of these vendors throw on the market.

I think thats what Wayne and Dave were referring to: Trev's original post ;-)

Stef

[Bob Reed]

Wayne,
Absolutely no disrespect meant here at all whatsoever and I 100% agree that bad crap is cheap and you get what you pay for but...WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AND WHAT DOES IT GOT TO DO WITH GWYN'S INCREDIBLE SKILLS AND QUALITY TQ? Sorry maybe Im just dense but to me what you had to say was pretty much syphoned down to this,
Dont buy crap yada yada we bought crap and got ripped off yada yada and crap is not the way to go! Yada yada more yada and say no to bad crap thats why we have a website to show the good from the crap is that pretty much correct? If so Im glad I get it and if not maybe it needs to be re explained in another area to better define your concerns. Sorry Ive never been known for my tact or diplomacy thats Trevor and Ivars dept, Im just trying to figure out what is it your really trying to say and why was it important enough to hijack Gwyn's TQ thread? Just askin
Tim

Easy Tim, no one is talking about Gwyn's throttle. They are talking about the original post by Trevor!

[warvet]

hahhaa Actually your right guys, Sorry Wayne my bad I was dead wrong! it was late when I replied an only saw the Gwyn post and was totally confused at what you were talking about, still no excuse. Thanks Stef and Bob for squaring me away. Bad Gwyn hijacking a thread, getting me in trouble shame on you!! Now go to your corner and make me a TQ as punishment for your behavior lol.
Tim
*In doghouse *

[dnoize]

Now go to your corner and make me a TQ as punishment for your behavior lol.

Or even better (having seen the pictures of Gwyns throttle):  Make us all an a340 throttle.....

oops....me...??  an airburp throttle   did i really say that         

Stef

[Waynesimstructor]

GULP!! ...thought a hand was gunna pop out of my hard drive and strangle me for a second there!

WayneK

[Trevor Hale]

ROFL. Wayne..  You and me both

[Aerosim Solutions]

Me hijack a thread....naaahhhh, wouldn't do that! Did I mention my awesome TQs somewhere I can't remember!!!

Trev, as soon as I get a decent commercial website happening, you'll have my sponsorship!!!

Cheers, Gwyn

[Trevor Hale]

Hey Gwyn,

I appreciate your enthusiasm.  And thanks for the offer.  However, This site will not be holding sponsorships.  We may (if needed) create a donate button that anyone who feels they would like to support the site could help, but we are not going to turn into a commercial site.  we have and always will remain a open community site, where people can feel free to share their stories without the worry of upsetting any vendors.

Just by you being a member of our community you are supporting our site.

Best regards,

Trev

[Boeing Skunk Works]

Thank God...