(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/Images/trashcan.png)
Ok, Maybe it is just me... Or maybe I might actually be on to something here.. But regardless, I really need to ask something from all of you. Am I out to lunch? (the expressed opinions in this post are of mine personaly, and do not reflect those of this website) LOL. I am sure you are all familiar with the phrase "Those who can - DO!" But if we would just stop and ask ourselves one question. Can we paint? or should we just enjoy other people's art. I think that is where this hobby is falling apart.
Perhaps none of the above makes any sense, well let me try to explain. I was just trolling the net, and found yet another person that has decided to "Start Building" Parts to sell to the flight sim community. I mean, It is obvious that some people are just looking for a "Get Rich Quick" Scheme to take our money for the least ammount of efforts. I went by SimMarket, and this is what I found.
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/Images/TQ.jpg)
I mean, for 331. Euro's I can think of a lot better things to buy. Not to mention this followed by a webpage that has been launched incomplete, because the guy just wanted to get his trash out in the open.
Although from a good standpoint when I see this crap, and then I see the quality of Flight Deck Solutions, or Engravity Hardware I am more willing to part ways with my cash for the "Good Stuff" but I guess I just don't quite understand why anyone in this hobby feels that they can build quality parts.
I apologize if I have offended anyone, I am just really getting sick of everyone and their grandmother thinking that the product they build is going to be better then the one his neighbour built. Am I wrong? Please tell me if I am..?
Trev
No you are not....but
There is a handful of serious people in this hobby, producing superb parts priced at an appropriate level which reflects the realistic cost of doing things and the end user purpose.
Design, research,testing, equipment etc have a cost which has to be spread over a limited number of units. On the other hand no lives depend on these parts and high aerospace price tags are not justified.
We are fortunate to have here, at Cockpitbuiders.com, a solid crew of competent, serious and enthusiastic builders, who "have been there done that" and can make the difference between a good and a crappy product.
Would-be builders can be lured in by prices or good looking (from far) parts. And some people can be tempted to cash on that. But...this should not distract us from serious, innovative and exciting products which are constantly improved by some of our best vendors who stay alive and well because they manufacture quality products at a realistic price.
This is true for this hobby as well as for any other market.
Cheer up Trev, what we have collectively achieved is not short of an amazing feat!
Based on a software that was a "game" at first, we have now built very advanced and sophisticated Cockpits and we can share on a daily basis a formidable pool of knowledge.
And there is no room in there for cheap and crappy parts, from any source. Market will make the selection.
My 2 undervalued CAD ¢
Well Said Jack. I completely agree. Good points for sure.
I have a slightly different opinion,
While I dont think I would be interested in the item you just posted I am happy to see others contributing choices in the market. The more competition out there the more we buyers can benefit. What I have found in this market (as you pointed out in the past to me Trevor) is that you really have to be careful who you buy from and make sure you do research. I have been screwed in the past by one vendor that advertises on another site as where a bunch of other people I know yet this guy is still out there pitching his "vaporware". I have also seen some other vendors that look like they have a great product but you can expect to wait months for it. The biggest wish I have is that more vendors with good products would spring up in the US because the Dollar to Euro conversion is a killer as is international shipping.
I will note the vendors who I think are great and will get my business over and over.....Paolo at CP Flight and by association I am sure there will be some engavity purchases in my future. Open Cockpits has excellent service and products and finally, Aviation Megastore has to be one of the best Ecommerce storefronts I have had the pleasure to work with. Nick at APHS is great to work with for real parts. I have also ordered knobs from Nihad and a TQ from Simparts at this point.
In short, I think it is great to have all of these choices but again would warn people to do the research on who they are buying from and make sure to get some references from other folks on this site and others before buying.
my .02
Oh Scott, you too have good points. You do seem to mirror in a way what Jack was getting at. In that, we all as successful builders have been around long enough to know where you can go to get "Quality" but in an effort to "Protect" the new guy in the hobby, I feel that there isn't anything that can persuade someone one way or another. I just wish some people like this individual, would look at their product and compare it to others on the market, and ask themselves, if I saw this product next to someone elses, why would I purchase it. that's it.
I am not in any way trying to stir up a debate here, I just wondered what all of your opinions were, and I like what I am hearing.
As for your Vaporware situation... That just goes with my thoughts.. Why should that be allowed, and how can a community help protect against that?
Anyway... its all good, you all have great feedback.
Trev
Trevor,
Scott and I have to be very careful in disclosing our personal issues with the aforementioned vaporware vendor. Let's put it this way- Sometimes folks choose to air the issues and sometimes they choose to sit down and keep quiet. This can be decided by so many factors. If someone chooses to keep quiet about it then it's likely because they are choosing either the 'high road' or trying to avoid causing further conflict.
I find myself often looking at low grade add on scenery with the disdain you expressed over the product shown above a lot more than when it involves hardware items. Building a home sim can sometimes begin with the same attitude that many folks begin learning guitar (and Mike can agree with me here)- " I just want something cheap that I can try to learn on so if I dont really care for it, then it's not a lot of money wasted". The problem with guitars is that if it's cheap, it likely wont be easy to play (physically) and yet the person will likely set it down to collect dust in the corner. Luckily, most hardware (even crappy stuff that's no good for 1:1 scale sim building) can be re-sold to folks that really dont know if they are committed to a single type of aircraft for their projects, and some equipment that's generic (like GoFlight) is EXCELLENT and while it only has an aviation look to it, most here know how durable/easy/reliable it is. This may be the case for the aforementioned TQ shown above. As Scott said, I think it helps folks get into the hobby and naturally if they plop down money for an inferior product and are a part of the community, we will all eventually hear about it.
Good post Trevor, thanks for bringing it up.
Just a note about choosing a vendor based on immediate availability of product.
We are so used to order things and get them overnight that we forget the very special aspect of these products. Especially for the plug and play , which are high ticket items, vendors cannot keep a fat inventory sitting idle.
To get a Sim from CAE or an Airbus from Aerospatiale, you will have to wait months even years and have to plan ahead. Same for our sims.
It is a delicate balance, specific to each situation, but planning must sometimes include ordering an item before you actually need it, which allows time for a good research and compatibility with your setup. In that case waiting for a good product for a few weeks or months is not an issue.
One thing I learned is that if you want to fly a completed sim some day, you have to settle at one point for what is now available and end the wait for (or the rat race to) the latest hard/soft, even if the market offers a new tech that involves redoing a large part of what has been done.. Otherwise it will never be finished.
Bit off topic but that's what a forum is all about,
Cheers Guys.
Oh Trevor. Oh Trevor. 8)
Believe it OR not. Market exists for these kind of products. I know it's sad!
Compare this to looks of Go-flight throttle. I think this looks far more superior. At least I can put my hand on the knobs.
and cheaper too?
Just my 2 CAD cents. (what are they worth)
Ali - 737 Yoke Team
LOL. I understand that, but it just seems one person sees a product, and think they can make something the same.
Hopefully this is much better assembled then their webpage is LOL.
Interesting subject :)
There are a lot of vendors/private people that offers parts for sale. Some make crap for big money, some make top notch for reasonable money, and some are just copycats. It is our choice to take the time to do a research about if the product has a value to the money as we expect.
Many builders dont spend any time at all before they buy parts. They just pop out of the blue sky, and states: Hey I am going to build a sim. Have bougth this and this and this, then asks on the forums if it will work.
Many builders have only themselves to blame, if they get screwed. But also many builders that have spent alot of time researching and still have been screwed by "serious" companies with a glamorous website, which suddenly disappear. Many broken hearts and wallets out there.
I cant remember to have been tricked a single time. One place I had to wait a serious long time, but the parts arrived finally. Not the best product, but it was cheap though.
I select my vendors as carefully as I can. There are a very few on the TOP LIST. High quality, support when I need, good value for money. Parts that help me achieve what I dream about when I am building my crazy sim.
One thing that is becoming more and more common in this very small world of simulator building is that some vendor spend alot of time, money and efforts to make a top notch product. Then the next new big wannabe rich vendor, buys the parts, and duplicates it as if it was his product. I bet many of you builders can see the tendency. Simulatorbuilding is still a very small part of our world. And so it will continue for very long time. Probably forever. I dont give a new vendor a slightest chance if I know that he duplicated a excisting vendors product. There are many examples around of vendors that really do hard work on their products. I choose them, even if it costs more.
It appears to me that the most serious vendors out there is the guys that actually spend some time on helping others in one way or another
:)
Hey Trev,
I kinda had the same impression you had when I first saw this product. To me the product you mentioned looks like a beefed up knockoff of the GF throttle quadrant with a couple switches added.
.. but I remember eighteen months ago I started in this hobby not really knowing what I was getting myself into. I started out with a joystick stuck to the top of my desk, then added GoFlight modules, then built a very crude enclosed cockpit and I was hooked.
Eighteen months later I am working on a full scale Lear 45 . . all of the parts thus far have been made by myself or members of Hangar 45, or are actual Lear parts . . a lot different from the GoFlight products. The GF products served their purpose at the time and sparked an interest that eventually led me to start building an exact copy of a Lear as is possible. I think the GF modules and other generic addons like the Saitek radios etc are what I call "in between" hardware . . you have moved up from flying with mouse and keyboard but not yet made it to building a full scale sim.
Good quality "in between" modules/parts may serve to introduce new FS addicts to the hobby and maybe that is their role. But I have issues as you do when you see people introduce inferior products / don't deliver / overpriced for what you get junk to the hobby. I think sometimes that we also forget that full scale cockpit builders are not the only FS junkies . . others may really enjoy just flying their desk, or just having GF modules, or Saitek products and those type products may suit them perfectly.
As others have mentioned, you need to do some research and ask others for their experience before throwing down the money!
My 2c worth as an eighteen month newbie and still wet behind the ears! ;D
Ivar and Shane, you guys hit the nail on the head. this is exactly the way I was hoping this discussion would go. Education is the key to a successful purchase.
And if we do our research, and we still get screwed then we know we did our best, and feel better about ourselves in the long run.
I couldn't agree with Ivar more with regard to purchasing products copied by others.. I am a loyal customer to the people who have serviced me over the years, and I too have to say that if they have been good to me, then I need to be good to them. For those companies out there that would do, that.. they have to be able to sleep at night somehow.
At the very least, the Big names FDS, ENGRAVITY, SIMKNOBS, and ACE, have a very good reputation that follow them, and of course if you are unsure about a vendor, you can always ask in a forum like this.
Great conversation guys.
Trev
I also want to say that I welcome new vendors that spend time making great products. It is always good with competition. Also in our "market segment". It keeps rival vendors sharpened, and we builders benefit in better and even more innovative products. Many new vendors have great ideas, that has not been done before.
And many builders that turn into vendors, really do a nice job.
But for the builders, a very few lines to think about.
1. Spend some time to make up your mind about what you want. And have fun with that for a while.
2. Research. What parts, vendors, software do you need to succeed with your project. Have fun with that for a while.
3. Buy, build, make in a "smart" way, so you always have something to do. This works good cause of step 1 and 2.
All stages of a simulator build is fun when you have a rough knowledge about the way you are going to achieve your goal.
For me the building is still more fun than the flying. Many hours of build, and then a bonus-flight. And I discover something to do, and keeps on going. It never ends, lol. So much to do that I barely take my time to update the website. Thats the way I like it. Things to keep me busy. In the end, thats what this is about :)
I better stop writing now, before someone calls the man in white coat :idiot:
I'm like Ivar, I really enjoy the building. I do what I can, and other complicated parts are left to the "Pros". I also like seeing new vendors . . unfortunately not to many vendors for Lear parts. Hopefully in time that will change. If I ever finish the Lear (is a sim really ever finished?) and I'm not too old I may build a 737 . . by then I should know exactly where to get parts or at least you guys can point me in the right direction! Can you imagine what will be available in the coming years! :idiot:
Nothing like sitting in a chair with a warm mug of coffee, and at the same time looking at a piece of wood, trying to imagine how that will turn itself into a aircraft part;D
Selfmade parts is the most fun. No doubt. I really enjoy working with wood. And as Shane states, the hardest parts are usually available from a vendor :)
I like a mix of it all. Some homemade, some replica and some real parts. Now I am really eager to install the new oxy panels from Nihad. Always something to look forward to :)
When I started out in this hobby in 1995, there was only one commercial offering - the ISA version of the EPIC board. Your choice of simulator was Flight Simulator 5.1 and a 747 simulator that was insanely expensive.
Since then I've seen dozens of companies come and go. The companies that failed can be split into two categories.
The first is the "monetized hobbyist". This person is a sim builder and wants to finally make some of the money back they spent on the sim. :D
Unfortunately, like R/C pilots that open hobby shops, they're doomed to failure because while they know the community and know the product they're selling, they don't have two clues to rub together when it comes to running a manufacturing business. These folks burn brightly for a short period of time and then end up broke and resentful because things they didn't plan for ate 'em for lunch. The sub-set of this group has the business acumen, but not enough experience in the community. They'll take product interest at face value, invest in a lot of expensive R&D followed by a large production run and then get broke & pissed off when it doesn't explode off the shelves. They often end up more bitter than the poor folks with no business sense. A couple of stunningly (and I mean _stunningly_) good product lines have vanished forever because of this.
The second category is full of people that have the skills & the money to bring a good product to market, but they don't understand the community. Flight simulator builders by their very nature are an odd lot. :D Most of us have been abused by part sellers that have gouged us for parts simply because "the original invoice on this component was $megabuck$". When you need a part and they're the only game in town, you usually end up sucking it up and spending the money. It's made a lot of us (myself included) pretty jaded and cynical about the whole hobby.
Unfortunately, these second category types tend to prey on the newbies because they can. These are the guys that put together glitzy websites and ship crap product. Fortunately for the hobby in general, these types are shorter and shorter lived with each successive generation.
One of the things that makes it hard to protect people from these sim "predators" is the total lack of reviews for the products they sell. Sure, we've got reviews of software add-ons for the most part, but nothing for the hardware. I'm not talking about "professionally" produced stuff from well known names like CH Products or Saitek, but the cottage producers. These are the guys that produce some great stuff, but either no one knows about them, or their product is expensive enough that people are reluctant to spend the money just for curiosity's sake.
We all hate to see newbies get mugged by shady operators and our friends get fed into a chipper-shredder because nobody knows about them until it's already too late to save 'em.
I think what we really need is a buyer's guide for home built simulator hardware. Something that can provide the potential customer with a no-nonsense, honest review of a product or manufacturing service.
Here's my thought - I've been running simpits.org for almost 10 years (February 9th is the 10 year anniversary!) and while it's always been a good meeting place for the hard-core sim builder, it hasn't done so well in the content department. I attribute this to my own lack of ability to keep the troops whipped up at a fever pitch for long enough to produce much content. :D What we did get was top notch.
Cockpitbuilders.com has a good handle on the discussion side of things - why not match the two sites? Simpits.org to hold in-depth product reviews and Cockpitbuilders.com to discuss them?
Does my suggestion make sense or am I talking out my hat again? :D
(thanks for reading to this point *laughs*)
g.
I like the building part of it too, but to me, it's just a means to an end. The flying. That's what I get the most enjoyment out of. Sure, I like reproducing a part that looks like it came out of a 727, but isn't that the point? I wouldn't build anything if I couldn't get it to look authentic. Or at least close enough that a visitor couldn't tell it from the real part.
I do like the building when I have to build what I can't buy. Fortunately, I don't have to rely too much on the authenticity or build quality of what I do buy from third party suppliers. Boeing and their contractors make some pretty tight stuff that can't be matched by anyone.
I use regular sellers that I've been buying from for five + years and all have treated me right in regards to shipping and price. No complaints from me about authenticity. ;D
Quote from: ivar hestnes on January 04, 2010, 03:16:34 PM
Nothing like sitting in a chair with a warm mug of coffee, and at the same time looking at a piece of wood, trying to imagine how that will turn itself into a aircraft part;D
True, unless your life expectancy is limited and you want to fly while you can still recognize the difference between a yoke and a cane ;D
Maurice
Quote from: geneb on January 04, 2010, 07:07:20 PMCockpitbuilders.com has a good handle on the discussion side of things - why not match the two sites? Simpits.org to hold in-depth product reviews and Cockpitbuilders.com to discuss them?
Lol Gene, you always make sense.. A good idea in its self that's for sure...
*May require some Exploring* :huh:
LOL..
Quote from: maurice on January 05, 2010, 05:26:23 AM
True, unless your life expectancy is limited and you want to fly while you can still recognize the difference between a yoke and a cane
Hmmm,, sounds like you might be getting to that point there Mau.. LOL
Quote from: Trevor Hale on January 05, 2010, 06:01:44 AM
Quote from: geneb on January 04, 2010, 07:07:20 PMCockpitbuilders.com has a good handle on the discussion side of things - why not match the two sites? Simpits.org to hold in-depth product reviews and Cockpitbuilders.com to discuss them?
Lol Gene, you always make sense.. A good idea in its self that's for sure...
*May require some Exploring* :huh:
LOL..
Me? Always make sense? Dude, you need to tell that to my wife! *laughs*
If you think it's worth pursuing, why don't you start a new thread where the details can be hammered out. Reviewing guidelines, material return policies, etc....
g.
Well, you have my vote for sure on that!
Tell you what, I will think about this and get back to you.. I am going through some personal stuff right now, and as soon as that is sorted out, we can throw it around and see if everyone can feed input into it.
I worked with other individuals to create that process at the other site, but there are politics involved in such a thing, that myself and this site do not want to get involved with.. This site needs to remain for the members, and I want to keep it that way. No favoritism to any vendor..
My plans and goals with this site were going to be that.. If I purchased a product and liked it I would review it based on my personal opinion of it. and If I hated it, I could safely say I hated it. Like I have done with the 1st Generation ACE Yoke.. I Loved it and I fully and full heartedly support ACE, ALI and his Products based on my personal experiences.. Knowing that I actually pay for the equipment to be reviewed, there is no pressure to have a biased opinion..
If any of you can understand.. This site has and will remain a non commercial platform for our community to have fun and share ideas.. I do not wish to take the path that other sites have in the past..
I hope that makes sense.
Trev
It makes complete sense to me. That's why I'm here instead of 'over there'... :idiot: ...and I won't be going back.
Quote from: Trevor Hale on January 05, 2010, 08:40:48 AM
I hope that makes sense.
Trev
It DOES NOT have to make sense. This is your baby and you can run it the way you see fit, but in this case, your way makes perfect sense anyway. I'm sure that the current membership will have no issues whatsoever with the way this site is evolving. You've done a hell of a great job so far, so why mess with success?
Maurice
Aww shucks!! LOL.. I appreciate that Mau.. I just want everyone to understand that this is a different site, and I hope it continues to grow. None of us want the site to take a turn for the worse, and then it loose its lustre.. Cockpitbuilders is the Elite, and I want to keep it that way..
Trev
Quote from: Boeing Skunk Works on January 05, 2010, 08:53:11 AM
It makes complete sense to me. That's why I'm here instead of 'over there'... :idiot: ...and I won't be going back.
Thanks Mike, and I am glad you are here... too.
Quote from: Boeing Skunk Works on January 04, 2010, 07:10:17 PM
I like the building part of it too, but to me, it's just a means to an end. The flying. That's what I get the most enjoyment out of. ;D
With you 100% on that.
I am really working my A** off to build an airliner cockpit because:
1) I am over 60 and Heavy Iron fun is out.
2) I love flying.(real and sim) A few days ago I had this wonderful experience (you know the kind of moment which pops out of nowhere but you know that you will remember for ever).
3000 feet,crisp clean and still air, the Aerobat flies itself, you jiggle the rudder pedals and the little bird wags its tail in the blue.... stupid hey? but it was being like a bird having fun..well, .some will understand!
3) I live in snow country, days are short, being outside is a challenge for 5 months a year.
HENCE: the urge to have a full size cockpit to sit in (instead of going to the club/supermarket/ golf course) , prepare the flight, with all documents handy, avionics humming, Elevator music in the background , etc etc...this is my kind of fun ,.
I admit that building is a pleasure, because we have to do it for many components, and because it is the only way to know the beast and be able to fix it when needed, but I prefer to rely on competent vendors for what would take me ages to build myself, as my idea is to reach full flight status ASAP.
Trev, I've run simpits.org the same way. The last thing I want is some goo brained vendor trying to tell me what to do, especially when I host the damn thing out of my house. :)
I would be so bold as to envision this review site as the "Consumer Reports" of the flight simulation hobby. Beholden to nobody and brutally honest. (you know me Trev, subtle as a Daisy Cutter. :D )
I'd hand out WordPress accounts to those people that had hardware they wanted to review. That way people would be responsible for their own authorship and would have the option of editorial assistance if they felt they needed it.
Anyway, think about it and get back to me on the side and we'll come up with something that will be guaranteed to annoy just about everyone. :D
g.
I like your idea Trevor . . no bias, just the facts about a product. Also like a site where everyone gets along and is accepted even if they are "an oddball Lear builder" among "big plane builders" ;D . . but I still get a lot of good info and ideas to use in my build, also really enjoy watching everyone's progress . .
Quote from: geneb on January 05, 2010, 11:47:18 AM
Trev, I've run simpits.org the same way. The last thing I want is some goo brained vendor trying to tell me what to do, especially when I host the damn thing out of my house. :)
I would be so bold as to envision this review site as the "Consumer Reports" of the flight simulation hobby. Beholden to nobody and brutally honest. (you know me Trev, subtle as a Daisy Cutter. :D )
I'd hand out WordPress accounts to those people that had hardware they wanted to review. That way people would be responsible for their own authorship and would have the option of editorial assistance if they felt they needed it.
Anyway, think about it and get back to me on the side and we'll come up with something that will be guaranteed to annoy just about everyone. :D
g.
It's really been 10 years??!!! I remeber when you started that thing.. There was what 10 of us? Maybe not even? Time has sprinted by it seems..... I remeber the first thing I saw of yours as far as real parts went. A 747 throttle lever. Nothing else just the lever hanging on your garage wall....
We've seen the number of vendors growing the last years. That is good. When I started my plans on a modest sim in 2004, there was not much of a choice. Now there is a lot more competition. And yes there are vendors that sell products that "serious" builders do not want. But let's not forget that not everyone wants to build a 1:1 full scale, top off the bill, real looking, functioning and smelling cockpit. Apart from that, not every one is blessed with a big budget or a very understanding wife or a large garage.
The product in question would not get into my sim, but if someone is happy with it, let it be so. If some one wants my opinion about it, he can get it. But it is not for me to decide what people should buy. And we all make choices, how much to build our selves and what to leave to vendors.
Cheers,
JWS
I'm still trying to find 'New Aircraft' air fresheners. ;D
Hi guys, this has really been an interesting chat and a good read, especially from a vendor point of view. Ivar struck a chord with me when he mentioned builders who become vendors which is basically what has happened to me. I am building high end quality products that the average builder wouldn't even think about buying. For instance, my throttle quads are pitched from US$3000 to US$3500. That's probably way out of reach for many so I think there is a valid market for the flimsy lightweight controllers that are available. My quads weigh about 7Kg (about 15Lbs) and there is about 70 hours of work goes into creating a couple of hundred pieces that make up a very heavy duty machine. I believe that the feel of the physical flight controls are very important to achieving the ultimate in immersion. My products are built with the passion I have for the hobby and the profit factor is a secondary consideration. I am thrilled to see my products appearing in builders pics across all forums, that is worth more to me than a few more bucks in the account!
I think there is a definate market for both types of product and competition is healthy for our hobby in general. I have been making simparts for three years now and I have never placed an ad anywhere!
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/gallery/albums/userpics/10011/normal_A340TQ_053.JPG)
Happy New Year to all Cockpitbuilder members from Gwyn - Aerosim Solutions
Without question Gwyn I will say, your crafsmanship and products are worth every cent you charge, and the customer is getting far more than they hoped for but to say you never advertised anywhere is not quite accurrate. Everytime you show a pic of your products or show a new one or talk about a customers review you are advertising. And the truly funny thing is you are getting the very best advertising you can because its a niche market and a selected market of your exact demigraphics, so who better. So do you advrtise ? Every chance you get should you? Yup how else will anyone know how to get your projects. Good luck in the New Year Gwyn.
Tim
Quote from: warvet on January 09, 2010, 02:12:49 AM
Without question Gwyn I will say, your crafsmanship and products are worth every cent you charge, and the customer is getting far more than they hoped for but to say you never advertised anywhere is not quite accurrate. Everytime you show a pic of your products or show a new one or talk about a customers review you are advertising. And the truly funny thing is you are getting the very best advertising you can because its a niche market and a selected market of your exact demigraphics, so who better. So do you advrtise ? Every chance you get should you? Yup how else will anyone know how to get your projects. Good luck in the New Year Gwyn.
Tim
Cheers Tim and thank you for the kind comments! What I meant by never advertised is I've never paid for an ad! I keep getting enough orders to keep me busy and away from working on my own sim which is a bit frustrating. If I advertised properly I might get too much work and I'm not about to give up the day job just yet, another couple of years maybe. I have been buying machines and tools all year in preparation for the switch to fulltime but I have to pay off the house first before I 'retire' to the shed!
Next project starting this week - B737 MIPs with all sub panels x 2 (One is for me!)
Gwyn
I agree 100% Gwyn as I have in my Martial Arts instruction, never paid for an advertisement because I feel if you offer a solid quality product or service that exceeds expectations of your customers you will have more than enough business. You certainly are a perfect example of that Gwyn. As Phil is with Panels you are with everything else lol.You certainly would be my first choice if I needed something built, Phil my first choice in panels, Ivar my first choice in shells and putting it all together and Trevor, Gary , Mau, Yourself, Jack, Gene, Mike and all my other friends here to join me in flying it :)By the way whose the 340 TQ for Gwyn, its amazing.
All the best
Tim
Thanks Tim, it is great to be held in such regard and have my work recognised! The TQ was commissioned by a German guy who lives and works in Thailand, his name is Erhard and you can see his sim progress here - http://wallentins.com/Flightsimming.htm (http://wallentins.com/Flightsimming.htm)
Cheers Gwyn
Gwyn,
The TQ is just amazing. Truly! The owner of that will be proud to have it as the centerpiece of their cockpit and I am sure will enjoy every moment flying it. If I was building the 340 it would diffinitely be on my wish list (as well as Tim's overhead...) and looks like it would be worth every last penny.
I look forward to seeing more of your work and cant wait to see what you do with your 737 MIP. I am building my 737 mip myself with the help of some top panels by OC (because I think laser engraving looks better than what my cnc router can accomplish).
Regards,
Scott
Dave, Chris and i have spoken about this topic a fair bit, and its "spot on".
I guess one of the overall messages is to keep this site for the builders. I know that as a builder i would want that.
But...remember...high priced gear does bring longevity to the table. (Such as this guys throttle quad that sparked the thread). Remember nova and elite panels? I used to cringe at the price of that stuff but there was method in that madness (really good method).
Those tq's could be his nova panels? :huh:
But...if you get the thing home and its a wonky piece of crap...you wont be happy.
Sometimes you get your sim parcel and feel kinda ripped off...(as we were last year by one vendor...it was an absolute joke he might aswell have filled the box with mud and sent it to us) but then sometimes you instantly fall in love with the $2 piece of plastic that you just paid 500 for... why did you pay 500?...because its a part that would cost you $500 to develop and make yourself i guess. Or you have never stepped foot in an aircraft to make a copy.
At the end of the day its like evolution. The crap vendors are going to be found out and the good ones will keep getting bigger. Guys will get stung along the way sadly.
Immediate response?....a forum to subconsciously grade and discuss?...hmmmm scary stuff on so so so many levels. Theoretically it would be a great thing....if kept real.
Wayne, Dave.
Wayne,
Absolutely no disrespect meant here at all whatsoever and I 100% agree that bad crap is cheap and you get what you pay for but...WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AND WHAT DOES IT GOT TO DO WITH GWYN'S INCREDIBLE SKILLS AND QUALITY TQ? Sorry maybe Im just dense but to me what you had to say was pretty much syphoned down to this,
Dont buy crap yada yada we bought crap and got ripped off yada yada and crap is not the way to go! Yada yada more yada and say no to bad crap thats why we have a website to show the good from the crap is that pretty much correct? If so Im glad I get it and if not maybe it needs to be re explained in another area to better define your concerns. Sorry Ive never been known for my tact or diplomacy thats Trevor and Ivars dept, Im just trying to figure out what is it your really trying to say and why was it important enough to hijack Gwyn's TQ thread? Just askin
Tim
Actually Gwyn Hyjacked Trevs topic about new vendors and the 'quality' that some of these vendors throw on the market.
I think thats what Wayne and Dave were referring to: Trev's original post ;-)
Stef
Quote from: warvet on January 11, 2010, 12:47:55 AM
Wayne,
Absolutely no disrespect meant here at all whatsoever and I 100% agree that bad crap is cheap and you get what you pay for but...WHAT IN THE HELL ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT AND WHAT DOES IT GOT TO DO WITH GWYN'S INCREDIBLE SKILLS AND QUALITY TQ? Sorry maybe Im just dense but to me what you had to say was pretty much syphoned down to this,
Dont buy crap yada yada we bought crap and got ripped off yada yada and crap is not the way to go! Yada yada more yada and say no to bad crap thats why we have a website to show the good from the crap is that pretty much correct? If so Im glad I get it and if not maybe it needs to be re explained in another area to better define your concerns. Sorry Ive never been known for my tact or diplomacy thats Trevor and Ivars dept, Im just trying to figure out what is it your really trying to say and why was it important enough to hijack Gwyn's TQ thread? Just askin
Tim
Easy Tim, no one is talking about Gwyn's throttle. They are talking about the original post by Trevor!
hahhaa Actually your right guys, Sorry Wayne my bad I was dead wrong! it was late when I replied an only saw the Gwyn post and was totally confused at what you were talking about, still no excuse. Thanks Stef and Bob for squaring me away. Bad Gwyn hijacking a thread, getting me in trouble shame on you!! Now go to your corner and make me a TQ as punishment for your behavior lol.
Tim
*In doghouse ;)*
Quote from: warvet on January 11, 2010, 11:28:48 AM
Now go to your corner and make me a TQ as punishment for your behavior lol.
Or even better (having seen the pictures of Gwyns throttle): Make us all an a340 throttle.....
oops....me...?? an airburp throttle ??? did i really say that :o :-[ :-X :angel: ;D
Stef
GULP!! :'( :'( :'( :'(...thought a hand was gunna pop out of my hard drive and strangle me for a second there!
WayneK
ROFL. Wayne.. You and me both :)
Me hijack a thread....naaahhhh, wouldn't do that! Did I mention my awesome TQs somewhere I can't remember!!!
Trev, as soon as I get a decent commercial website happening, you'll have my sponsorship!!!
Cheers, Gwyn
Hey Gwyn,
I appreciate your enthusiasm. And thanks for the offer. However, This site will not be holding sponsorships. We may (if needed) create a donate button that anyone who feels they would like to support the site could help, but we are not going to turn into a commercial site. we have and always will remain a open community site, where people can feel free to share their stories without the worry of upsetting any vendors.
Just by you being a member of our community you are supporting our site.
Best regards,
Trev
Thank God...
8) LOL Mike, That is my vision, and will continue to be. Over my Dead body.. Which by the way things are going.... LMFAO Just kidding.
I am sure many people feel as you do even if they aren't willing to say it. This is just the way it should be.
Trev
The beauty of it is that no page space is wasted by ads for crap we don't want. :D
g.
Quote from: Trevor Hale on January 14, 2010, 08:03:29 AM
8) LOL Mike, That is my vision, and will continue to be. Over my Dead body.. Which by the way things are going.... LMFAO Just kidding.
I am sure many people feel as you do even if they aren't willing to say it. This is just the way it should be.
Trev
You know.. I never even thougt about that!! Good point!