White is Not White

[NeoMorph]

One thing I noticed on my panels is that some of the buttons were not showing up the text logos as well as others.

So before I put my order in for my large sheets of perspex that will make up the rest of my cockpit I ordered some samples... and omg, the number of shades of white.

Running the various samples through my tests show that the really pure white looks great when unlit but performs poorly when backlit. As you go down the scale the white colouring goes towards the opal colouring but increases the backlighting functionality. Took a bit of umming and ahhhing but finally went for the Opal 028. Best of both worlds. If it was not going to be backlit I would choose Opal White 069. If pure backlit I would choose Opal 1T04.

I used to think white was white... guess not.

[Bob Reed]

There is truth to what you are saying here. When I ordered my panels from Ruscool, his question to me was, are you going to backlight these? And when I told him yes, he told me he needed to use the Opal material and not the White.

[NeoMorph]

Got to admit that I was partially disappointed with my panels readability before I added the lighting and then they came alive. I tried the same levels of light behind the perfect white panel and you could hardly see it.

So I went over to my real panels and fudged up some power to it (it includes the backlighting) and OMG the lights are so damned BRIGHT to get through the pure white perspex. These aren't LED's. These are incandescent bulbs. To work with the pure white they have to make the panels thin and then use really bright lights.

I'm glad my setup is as it is... will probably save on the electricity heh.

[hexpope]

I had the same issue also regarding white. I am using some form of opal aswell in my laser. Backlighting looks great through them, but when not backlit, it's not as white as you would like.

[phil744]

Thats because the paint is casting an internal shadow inside the plastic, not really much you can do to get around that apart from machining the rear of the panel out so engraved areas are 1mm thick then paint the underside white.

[NeoMorph]

Actually Phil it is due to something called "Light Transmission Levels"... yeah, news to me too.

Found a site that actually lists the various LTLs...

http://www.theplasticshop.co.uk/plastic_technical_data_sheets/perspex_sheet_opals_light_transmission_values.pdf

It's definitely useful when deciding what you want for your panels. It's not a linear number scale by any means.

[jonesthesoftware]

Hi Guys
I just dismembered a real piece from a 767 cokpit MIP. The backlighting is done via a clear piece of perspex which is then sprayed white then sprayed brown and the engraving only cuts throught the brown paint . This gives white clear lettering with no backlight and beautiful backlighting with the incandescent lamps fitted. I've tried various types of opal acrylic and HIPS (polystyrene sheet) and both give dull letters when not backlit. I must try the original method but with LED's and see wht the results are like
regards
geoff

[BABA767]

Hi Guys,
I've try several method for my panels (white perspex empty inside, polystyrene sheet, etc..) and after all I find the best method like real boeing panel are made. At now I'm remaking all my panels with 6mm clear perspex then white layer, black layer and final brown..all matt paint of course. So no secret and as Geoff wrote this give best result with clear white letter and beautiful backlighting with lamp then just see the "Phil panels" simply amazing .
Follow my last test of new panels..
cheers,
Valerio

[phil744]

Actually Phil it is due to something called "Light Transmission Levels"... yeah, news to me too.

Neo you teaching me how to suck eggs? 

Light transmission level basically represents what % of light is lost when travelling through the material, a common mistake most people make, including me, when setting about panel making is using this opal plastic is when you hold it in front of you it looks white, that's the ambient light reflecting back at you, its just a diffused plastic, the second you paint and engrave it you stop the ambient light getting into it.  So when you look at the engraved text your actually looking into the shadow cast void below.

Sticking an LED behind it and it lights up like a Christmas tree, because you have illuminated the void inside the panel with light.

using white plastic means the engraving looks great when lights off, because its reflecting light from the surface, not through the body of the plastic when using opal, problem is then the backlighting, getting a bulb to shine through 6mm acrylic is not easy.

Common way to get around this is to laminate a very thin piece of white acrylic over clear acrylic, or apply a very thick layer of white paint or even powder coat the clear acrylic in white, the problem we have is our CNC machines and Gantry CO2 laser cutters/engravers just don't have the accuracy to engrave to a depth of a single layer of paint, so thicken the white layer up to overcome this, if your white layer is 0.5mm or above then you can make panels exactly the same as on the real aircraft.

The additional black layer acts as a light block layer, bit of extra security to avoid un wanted light bleed through on non engraved areas and also means you don't have to piss about placing light shields on the underside of the panel.

And if you use matt paint for the black layer it has a nice effect on the finish on the top layer.

and Valerio, simply stunning mate, better than what i make, i will get you a return ticket so you can come and and give me a hand

2 pics below, currently having a run of 747 and 767 stuff, you see the panels are clear acrylic, they may look opal but that's because they have been sandblasted, then first coat is in white, then they will go black, then brown, the first layer of paint is what is exposed when engraved.

Hope it helps

[NeoMorph]

Sorry... Didn't understand what you meant and it really was baffling me.

So basically using opal is the wrong way to go. It's tutorials like these that would really benefit others. I just could not figure out why my real panels had such clear labelling.

And Phil I wasn't teaching you to suck eggs... Just wasn't understanding.

[phil744]

hehehe don't worry i was pulling ya leg.

Top and bottom is simple, the holy grail of panel making is a brilliant white plastic that light can pass through, but that will never happen so we have to find other methods..

Opal is a fine way of getting what you want, might be wise to ask for a swatch from your local plastic store, its basically a key chain with 2" X 1" sample of every type of acrylic available, then you cant test until you find what works best.

Its very easy to become fixed on one panel for your Sim, in the grand scheme of things its only a small part to an entire Sim, this is the question you need to ask yourself, will you ever fly your Sim with the backlighting off? truth is you probably wont, even in day light hours a Sim is a very dark place, invest in a very good dimmer control instead.

[NeoMorph]

In gaming parlance "I R Teh Suck" lol. Oh and when you pulled I fell over so I'm suing you. :p

I got some samples but they aren't 1" ones... They sent 6" x 6" ones. They are actually probable going to end up as back plates to some of my panels.

I mistaken I could afford to build a CNC machine. I could probably do it if I had the space and the cash. It's something I would like doing. I am getting a small milling machine and a lathe soon as there are parts I want to fab for my sim and my home automation setup. Maybe sometime in the future I will update them with CNC controls.

[BABA767]

and Valerio, simply stunning mate, better than what i make, i will get you a return ticket so you can come and and give me a hand


Phil,
I should learn a lot from you...and at now I'm wainting at Fiumicino (LIRF) ready to board for London LOL..
ciao V.

[phil744]

Phil,
I should learn a lot from you...and at now I'm wainting at Fiumicino (LIRF) ready to board for London LOL..
ciao V.

Manchester EGCC mate not London you will be waiting for a long long time

[Atomic_Sheep]

0.5mm or above then you can make panels exactly the same as on the real aircraft.

That's a lot of layers!