Boeing 727 Not Welcome in European Airspace above FL095

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I was quite surprised to learn this at the IVAO forum from German controllers. It was not stated in so many words as my title would suggest, but the jist of the title is correct.

I started a thread politely requesting that controllers check not only the equipment listing for an IFR flight plan, but also the remarks section for aircraft capabilities. I was met with mostly remarks concerning pilots who do not check ATIS before contact and stating that they will check the remarks section when pilots start checking ATIS.

There were a few intelligent responses such as a response about new European airspace regulations covering BRNAV and PRNAV, which I'm not too crazy about given the type aircraft I fly. It essentially states that they do not have to allow a non-compliant aircraft airway access or radio navigation access above FL095. In fact, according to regulations, I must fly at or below FL095 if I cannot comply with any type of RNAV procedure or routing.

The reason for my thread was to get the attention of controllers who either don't read or cannot understand what the equipment listing is for a 727 on the flight plan. They all just assume I can push a few buttons and fly this damn thing anywhere they tell me to. I honestly believe none of these contollers fly, and if they do they have no idea how to really navigate an aircraft.

I will fly the aircraft anywhere they wish me to go if they will give me a vector to fly to wherever that is instead of having to ask for a vector and explain to each and every controller why I need a vector and "Unable to comply"

I can:

A.) Upgrade the aircraft with GPS or some sort of RNAV capability.

B.) Stay at or below FL095 with a KC-10 leading the route.

C.) Say the hell with IVAO and return to the States and fly on VATSIM.

None of the choices are appealing to me.

Bitch Mode off. Thanks EuroControl!

[Trevor Hale]

Mike,

That is very disappointing to hear indeed.  Wow.. I mean we all know that Vatsim is Large over here, and IVAO is larger for europe, however.  One thing I have seen is that these guys want to start turning people away form their network..  Not a smart move..  Although there is one person I would suggest you could write to, but.. due to personal reasons maybe not such a hot idea.

Regardless what I have seen is that VATSIM is busy in Europe during certain times of the day.  With your flexible schedule, that may work in your favor. Here is my prime suggestion..  Let these idiots get over themselves, (Because as you know in the real world if John Travolta took his 707 in European airspace nobody would say he would have to fly that low) Just because he wasn't RVSM Certified or whatever.  Download "Servinfo" and connect it to the network and just observe the European traffic.  I think you might be surprised at the amount of traffic and controllers that occupy that airspace.  Maybe even write Vatsim and ask them to schedule some more European "Fly-Ins" Regardless, they still run controller exams and you will get to partake in those as well.

I am just really disappointed to hear that IVAO has chosen to go that route.  What a shame.

Trev

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I'm not sure that even though it is a firm regulation in the real world, that it's carved in stone at IVAO. I guess I may find out the next time I file. I've been filing conventional procedures above FL095 ever since I've been flying on line.

The first tip off that no one has read the remarks section or even the equipment list is they want me to change my departure to something I can't possibly fly. The next time they do that I'll amend it and just fly straight out on the runway heading. I'm sure that will get their attention. Probably make an enemy or two along the way as well.

I have Servinfo on this system so I'll start having a look again at VATSIM and see how many controllers pop on at various times.

You'd think that they would allow for legacy aircraft where everyone was welcome to participate. I may have to re-think my alegiances. I guess except for John Travolta, that the 707, 737-200, and any other old aircraft isn't welcome above FL095 either.

[jackpilot]

Michael
Why not posting your legitimate grief on all available forums...Could rock..
So stupid . who do they think they are! they totally lost focus on the purpose of the whole thing...next on the agenda, they could go on strike !!
Nuts

[Boeing Skunk Works]

That would be like trying to 'fight city hall' I'm afraid.

I am in quite the minority of legacy aircraft flyers who haven't adapted to new navigational equipment. I'm sure even a Constellation now has a GPS for those who don't care about authenticity.

My complaints would fall on deaf ears.

We'll see what happens the next time or two I fly.

Just to be clear on the matter, I was not told directly that I cannot fly the 727 above FL095 without the correct equipment. This was alluded to in not so many words, but not very subtley either. Such as, "ATC could also ask you to obey a small little rule in German airspace telling us: If you are not B-RNAV equipped, maximum cruising altitude is FL 95."

At any rate, after that remark I automatically felt like an outsider and a rogue.

[jackpilot]

Probably an over zealous little brat (or old fart) showing off his recently acquired knowledge.
Well, next flight,  load a few Amrams ...

[ETomlin]

I am going to try to add my thoughts on this in as sensitive and open minded way as possible (and I realize that saying alone may seem like Im about to say something NOT sensitive, etc. but hear me out).

Mike, you have an incredible project and I think it's fair to say that nearly every member appreciates your hard work put into the venerable 727 as well as all the time and effort to fly it appropriately, but it's also fair to say that the network has established rules that are intended to mimic operations as they really are (if they are in fact based on real-world procedures for their airspace). You made the comment last week that your sim is still in 1978. The problem is, the rest of us are not and seeing as you are a very hard core simmer I dont see why you would shy away from adding GPS to your sim if you needed it on occasion. Afterall, FED EX, UPS, and a slew of other 727 operators have updated their flight decks well beyond simple GPS. This isnt saying you have to use it all the time, and I can appreciate your philosophy of "Yeah, you have to fly this one", but GPS is here to stay and it's a neccesity in this day and age of highly congested airspace and the bureacracy of government. Not to mention, it really does make flying much easier (although not as enjoyable for some that really like stick and rudder and VOR). All I'm saying is that if they are truly implementing the airspace rules like they are in real life, they are being 'hard core' too and you cannot fault them for that. The fault lies with any attitude or the tone in which they conduct themselves, for as mamma always said, "It's not what you say but how you say it." I hope you take this in the way I mean it because I understand that the purpose of building a sim the way we want it is because we CAN do that (and it would be hard to add GPS to your setup unless it was an on-screen mouse and click device, which beats the purpose of our sims) but we need to remember that the vast majority of the controllers love to control and they want it to be realistic for them too, and we are about to be in 2010. That's all. Again, I hope that a suitable compromise can be had.

[Trevor Hale]

Actually Eric, that is the issue.  They aren't implementing rules that are used in real life.  In Real Life, Mikes 727 would be fully allowed to follow his flight plan as he writes it.  IVAO has created their OWN rules that contradict real operations.  "Only to make life easier" for their controllers, and thus ruining the "As real as it gets" Experience.

Just my tidbit.

Trev

[ETomlin]

Thanks Trev. If that is indeed the case, then they are not being very realistic then and I would likley seek out using the other service.

[Bob Reed]

I understood it as "the way it is in real life" as well. If that is not the case then....... Wel, VATSIM anyone?

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I'm going to be digging through ICAO regulations tonight to see what I can find out about this.

The bits and pieces I've read from EuroControl and ECAC indicate that this information may be correct. However, I haven't yet come across any specific wording indicating that I'm in direct violation. Only the word of the German controller that was replying to my thread.

I don't know of any real world operators flying without the alleged required equipment at those altitudes but I'm going to try and research that as well.

Eric has a good point, and looking at it from their shoes they probably wonder why anyone would want to work harder than is neccesary to navigate. Anything worth doing to me has never been easy.

[pdpo]

Hi there,

I am flying already a long time on IVAO and I am very satisfied with their services they provide us. All of us are doing this as a hobby but some people, as well controllers or pilots
make mistakes, forget to fill in the equipment list, remarks section or forget to read it.
Its still a hobby .. not a profession... we all just try to get as close as possible to the reality.
Anyway, when I read this post I felt I needed to do something to help as well the 727 flyer among us as ivao so I have send an email to the belgian IVAO director and the belgian FIR responsable as they are friends of mine to take a look at this post and to
see if there is something to solve here.
I received a respons and he has forwarded my mail to the german ivao responsable since its a friend of his.
I hope this might lead to some solution...
Anyway, lets keep on flying and enjoying the ivao network. We are all part of a community and there will be always some differences in mindset to bridge.

Greetz Peter Depoortere

[Trevor Hale]

Hi Peter,

Thank you for attempting to create a solution to this dilemma.  What a wonderful community that is willing to assist each other in this kind of situation.  Please let us know how you make out.

Best regards,

Trev

[Boeing Skunk Works]

Thank you Peter for mentioning this to the FIR chiefs. Maybe something good will come of it.

[G-BVOB]

Hi guys,

As a European I'll jump in with both feet  and say in the real world all the requirements brought in over the last decade have been a headache. We're currently importing some aircraft into Europe, which have been flying in the livery of a major US legacy carrier and we're having to get special dispensation to bring them into European airspace for the ferry flight over to go straight into the hangar and be modded with (amongst other things) the extra kit required for European ops. When my F27 was still flying for real she had a GPS etc installed to make her BRNAV compliant and legal, and I'm going to fit it with the Project Tupelov KLN90 in it's FS2004 incarnation. Changes in the regulations and the very high cost of fitting new equipment are one reason why it becomes uneconomic to continue flying older aircraft - spending several 100Ks on new avionics in an airframe which is worth just a few million or so and built when computerisation was the stuff of science fiction doesn't make much sense. No RNAV, no fly.

However that's the rule-laden real world. We fly in the virtual world, so there should be leeway for us to do our own thing, even those of us driving classics; because I want to soar up to FL210 without a Magenta Line in sight

Jon
(head back under the parapet  )