Building A-6 Intruder/EA-6B Prowler Inspired and Enclosed Cockpit.

[Grind and Click]

Hey all,

This is mostly just so people can offer casual advice as i go but i do have a few important questions.

Myself and a friend are going to start building what can resemble for the most part an A-6 Intruder/EA-6B Prowler pit.

Prowler


Intruder




It will be just heavily and as much as possible based on these as we want to do other things like have 3 people in the cockpit as ill explain, but we want to end up calling it a Protruder 

We're into sim games like ArmA and Silent Hunter but this is our first stint over to flight sims besides IL2, but it was only a matter of time.

We've watched videos of A-6 Intruders in Xplane and a couple of other older sims, and assume they are at proper sim level as far as adding all the switches and having them do something goes (?), but that isnt too important as we'll fly other planes obviously.

To cut it short its to be based on an Intruder just so we can sit beside eachother and not have to be seated infront and back like in say a F-14, we also aim for it to be an enclosed box like a real pro simulator. (Will post the google sketchup image so far once have added a few things)

Now i also mentioned the Prowler variant, and heavily emphasise based on as we also want to have a 3rd seat (cant afford 4 like a real Prowler) right behind us facing sideways at a right angle to us like the empty seat closest on the right below (ignore the rear seat to the left)



Just so we can fit an extra guy in, even though it isnt realistic, also advice on a sim with a healthy multiplayer community for flying planes that can carry 3 or 4 guys and have them all busy doing something in the one plane (like a Prowler) would be helpful too as we're as i said quite new to the community as a whole, so maybe a game like this doesnt support that type of play yet for it to be worth while.

Looking to use Fresnel lenses but i hear they can blur the game a bit too much, or maybe a projector, other ideas included using the Vusix goggles ive seen and putting them in a helmet with Track IR, but again heard resolution would be a problem and negate even having a cockpit?

We think its quite an expensive thing to do but what is the sort of cost to make your sim move with the planes movements like some of the videos ive seen?

http://youtu.be/ONjAwKO-IjA

Like that but like 2 side by side and enclosed with more elevation to allow for the width.

Thats most likely something we'll leave behind but thought id ask anyway as the cheapest known way is probably a huge price tag with similar man hours.

The only other thing id ask is if anyone has a link to an A-6/EA-6B Blueprint of what all the gages, dials, switches and buttons on the cockpit actually do, as we'd like to set all of them out where they would really be?

Thank you for any advice and will as said post the google sketchup so far when we've finished the front area at least.

[blueskydriver]

Welcome to the insanity! Alrighty, you're looking for an A-6 Intruder to start with mods. The first one that comes to mind is for FS9 (2004).

Using "Abacus" (www.abacuspub.com) Military Aircraft Collector's Edition (from 2003), it has the A-6 Intruder. You could start with that and FS9, which would be cheap in cost for the software to help determine your next steps.

This is from the PDF page on the aircraft:

A-6 Intruder REFERENCE INFORMATION
The A-6 Intruder is a heavy carrier based bomber that can take-off with 9 tons of weapons. The Intruder played
a vital part during Vietnam. Its primary role was to hunt and destroy the enemies Surface to Air Missiles or
SAMs. With no air-to-air defenses, the A-6 required cover aircraft to fly it's missions. This cover was provided
mainly by the F-4 Phantom. The A-6 is still in service and now uses the same engines as the F/A-18 Hornet.
Length: 54 ft.
Height: 16 ft.
Engines: 2 Pratt & Whitney J52-P-8B turbojets
Thrust: 9,300 lbs.
Empty Weight: 27,555 lbs.
MTO Weight: 58,476 lbs. (carrier launch) / 60,933 lbs. (land-based take-off)
Wing Span: 53 ft.
Wing Area: 529 sq ft.
Range: 1,010 miles with max load
Max Speed: 642 mph
The FS version
The A-6 Intruder will be listed in Flight Sim along with the rest of the default Flight Sim aircraft. To help you
find it easily, set the following when selecting an aircraft:
Aircraft Manufacturer: Abacus Military Collectors Edition
Aircraft Model: A-6
Variation: Intruder
This aircraft model has numerous moving parts:
• rolling wheels
• flaps, ailerons, rudder and elevators
• opening canopy
• tailhook

As for actual hardware, that might be a little time consuming, but not impossible. You can make or try to find them... The parts are out there, you just have to hunt harder.

BSD

[jskibo]

Welcome!

Lots of A-6's in the boneyard, though I'm not sure you can get any real parts.

Either the A-6 or the EA-6B (Called the Queerbird by some of us having to fix that piece of flying FOD.....oh I miss it) won't have much for anyone but the pilot to do.

In the Intruder, the BN (Bombadier / navigator) got to look at that radar display you see on the right (albeit through a BN hood not shown in the picture...another maintenance nightmare I could discuss over beers).  The BN had no controls.

In the Queerbird, the Pilot was accompanied by three oxygen suckers called ECMO's Electonics Countermeasure Officers, though most times they flew with less than three.  Those guys had even less to do than the BN, though the EA-6B did sport a fancy gold inlaid canopy glass (which most mechs used to make novelties out of such as Gold inlaid motorcycle windscreens after removing them for the slightest scratch).

So other than the guy flying, the other folks would have absolutely nothing to do as nobody models a BN station or the ECMO stations (highly classified)


Good luck though, i do miss my ugly aircraft that were so covered in exfoliation corrosion they were a wet dream for Structures mechs such as I was in a past life

[blueskydriver]

Guess what? You are in luck software-wise, went to the Abacus website (have not been there in a while) and found exactly what you wanted!

Go here:

http://www.abacuspub.com/platinum/catalog/s801.htm

$19.95 US and for FSX. If it works, just remember to tell your friends and others that you got great information from here:

www.cockpitbuilders.com

Your Welcome,

Blueskydriver-Team

[jskibo]

Actually, if you want something that flies better use RazBam's 


Miles ahead of ABacus

http://www.razbam.org/products/intruder/index.html

[Grind and Click]

Welcome!

Lots of A-6's in the boneyard, though I'm not sure you can get any real parts.

Either the A-6 or the EA-6B (Called the Queerbird by some of us having to fix that piece of flying FOD.....oh I miss it) won't have much for anyone but the pilot to do.

In the Intruder, the BN (Bombadier / navigator) got to look at that radar display you see on the right (albeit through a BN hood not shown in the picture...another maintenance nightmare I could discuss over beers).  The BN had no controls.

In the Queerbird, the Pilot was accompanied by three oxygen suckers called ECMO's Electonics Countermeasure Officers, though most times they flew with less than three.  Those guys had even less to do than the BN, though the EA-6B did sport a fancy gold inlaid canopy glass (which most mechs used to make novelties out of such as Gold inlaid motorcycle windscreens after removing them for the slightest scratch).

So other than the guy flying, the other folks would have absolutely nothing to do as nobody models a BN station or the ECMO stations (highly classified)


Good luck though, i do miss my ugly aircraft that were so covered in exfoliation corrosion they were a wet dream for Structures mechs such as I was in a past life

Haha awesome post, thank you. Thank you too to blueskydiver for the info!

Yeah im just trying to get me and my buddies in the same plane somehow, and we're quite keen to go up against others in a form of campaign or combat, but if you say only the pilot really has anything to do and nothing is even models the BN or ECMO stations then maybe a rethink is in order.

I dont suppose your familiar with ArmA 2 (?) but it has a sort of middleground possibility to work but there isnt Prowlers in it or a jet that can task 3 people and online gameplay doesnt always mean you get to be in a plane.

[jskibo]

I've played ArMA and ArMA II.....

Dont' want to discourage you about the A-6 (would really be neat to see one done properly), but it would cost you a ton as you would be making your own panels for everything.  You could use RazBam's pit to get the idea of guage and placement, but again this is only for FSX or Third Wire's Strike Fighters / Strike Fighters Vietnam series.  With the former ((FSX) you could burn holes through the sky but there is nothing to "fight" as its not a combat game.  With the later (Strike Fighters) you would have a combat game, but you would be flying alone as there is still nothing for your friends to do. 

The other problem with anything outside of FS9 / FSX is getting your switch to do what you want it to do.  Without FSUIPC, or a card than can emulate keystrokes or a series of keystrokes you won't be able to talk to the sim.  Worse yet, not many sims outside of FSX will talk to your guages, so you will have fancy "stickers" in your pit without them really showing you anything.  The only partial exception to all of this that I can think of is the old Falcon 4.0, or Falcon AF / FreeFalcon 5.0 or whatever other mod is out there now.

Good luck whatever you decide to do.  There's a wealth of great info here and with the people that make up this board, so if it can be done, they will surely help you out.

John

P.S.  Thanks for making me think of my old beautiful bird again......I kind of miss her!

[Grind and Click]

I've played ArMA and ArMA II.....

Dont' want to discourage you about the A-6 (would really be neat to see one done properly), but it would cost you a ton as you would be making your own panels for everything.

Already lugged some wood home from my workplace that was idleing, but is that what you mean by panels?

You could use RazBam's pit to get the idea of guage and placement

Yeah ive got enough pics of A-6 and Prowler cockpits i just need to find out what they all are/do.

The other problem with anything outside of FS9 / FSX is getting your switch to do what you want it to do.  Without FSUIPC, or a card than can emulate keystrokes

I think my friend said he'd found some USB hub that some guy made that had radio fixtures you could attach to the switches?

Worse yet, not many sims outside of FSX will talk to your guages, so you will have fancy "stickers" in your pit without them really showing you anything.  The only partial exception to all of this that I can think of is the old Falcon 4.0, or Falcon AF / FreeFalcon 5.0 or whatever other mod is out there now.

I was going to use monitors to display the guages but use small ones for guages that were seperate from any group that wouldnt fit on the 15"?

Good luck whatever you decide to do.  There's a wealth of great info here and with the people that make up this board, so if it can be done, they will surely help you out.

John

P.S.  Thanks for making me think of my old beautiful bird again......I kind of miss her!

Good to know i came to the right place then, and glad to serve you a fond memory, i cant believe my luck at finding someone that knows what you must about these great aircraft chief.

All the other forums arent taking notice or havent allowed my post to be seen yet. As i said i know we're making a sort of Prowler variant but theres other aircraft out there we dont mind flying and they have plenty use for a gunner and navigator through experience.

http://youtu.be/gQ_gJTAj_cA

The gunner in that vid is fully tasked with fireing those missiles and navigating the area while the pilot bobs and weaves. Games are coming along all the time, so by making an A-6/EA-6B hopefully it wont be before long we actually get one in some game to the level of detail we're after, meantime im sure we'll find some game that has us all in the same vehicle ( even ArmA's tanks could do for now, driver, commander and gunner all have valuable jobs).

Also any idea on actually making it move with the movements of the plane? I saw the Roger dodger aviation guy on youtube had a quite cool way for a Y and X axis movement using weights but....?

Another idea we have is we're thinking on using this setup for the monitors. (apologies for the roughness of the drawing, im at work on a touchpad laptop)



Being you worked on these planes in real life you'll get what my scratchings mean, but problems with multi monitors of differing ages can mean colour problems and other compatibility issues, as were just looting ebay for whatever we can really of all ages. Still not sure the differing sizes would work either would they? They're all the same height at least right?

[jskibo]

I'll tackle the last one first.....

You might be better off with Projectors for an outside view if you have at least a 10 x 10 or better size space to work with.

Running a span of 6 views is going to crush the frame rates on even a high end card an capable PC.  To get there today you would need either two Matrox TripleHead2Go's and a couple video cards, an eyefinity AMD card (I think it does 6), or multiple PC's and vid cards (with this you're back to FS9 ro FSX and WideView as I don't know another game that supports that. 

On that note, you are limited in other games by what the developer coded for views, or what you can tweak a config file to give you.  Beyond that you just end up with a stretched version of a normal view (not what you want I'm sure).

With a few PJ's and some warping software and a TripleHead2Go or Eyefinity card you can get closer to this:

[jskibo]

To get to some of you other questions:

Here's my 737 in its current state:



The area you see that are backlit are different panels, made usually of plexi, painted and etched (laser) so the light shows.  there's different ways of doing the backlighting, these are with real A/C 5v bulbs, however LEDs are more cost effective for a home project.  Helps to have the switch or knob legend lit up when you are flying in the dark or a dark room so you know what you are reaching for.

The displays are actually two 19" widescreen for the Captain and F/O PFD and ND displays and a 15" 4:3 for the EICAS (center).  So your idea of using a monitor and cutting a faceplate to sit in front of it and dividing the guages across that monitor are very doable, however you need to find a plane (if using FSX) or a game (if using some other program) that allows you to undock your guages and move them, else you're stuck with the way they appear on the screen and have to work your monitor cover around that .  Not as easy.

To run what I have in the above picture, I use a i5-650, 8GB with two vide cards, one output for each 19", one for the 15" and another for the CDU not shown in the picture.  I will add one more PC to drive the Lower MFD (note shown) as well as the F/O CDU.  Visuals and the sim itself are driven by another PC.

[Grind and Click]

Sorry i should of clarified.

The left 3 monitors are my friends PC. The right 3 monitors are my PC. They will be seperate views and indeed maybe look a bit off if hes behind me in game for an Apache ride lets say, however meantime we have the SU-34 in ArmA 2 with side by side seating, but yes we're making exceptions in that if one of us uses freelook it will detach the screens and go crazy, but we dont mind that as most of the time it will be a proper linked view at least.

If we get a plane that carries 3 the third guy in the back will have yet another seperate PC of his own and have his own setup again.


For your last post,  thats a really ace looking setup, and i understand ArmA doesnt allow undocking of guages (as an example of a game we play), but if you see here this is a mod in the works we're hoping gets finished-

http://www.armaholic.com/page.php?id=9640

We're just sort of making a pit in hope games and more importantly sims go the way they are already seem to be and support for features like this becomes more standard, meantime we may make the faceplate detatchable for when compatability means we need the whole monitor clear.

p.s yeah we've already been looking at a tripplehead 2 go, very interested, but if a projector isnt too expensive we would consider it.

[Sean]

Hey John, who's projection setup is that, it's fantastic!

Sean

[jskibo]

It's either Ivar or Nat's, can't remember where I poached the example from

[Grind and Click]

Everything begins- at the beginning.





The stick is a- to be fair quite cheap one we had sitting about made by Genius that we extended the shaft on.



But has great functionality, landing AH-6's on a penny, however as you may see I think its a bit lop sided (or so it looks as its my friends pics and i just noticed now), but can always put it in another more tighter joystick base like a Logitech extreme 3d pro we have lying around, otherwise that looks the most like the Intruder stick, was looking at a TopGun stick just to detatch the handle



But read its quite small and more for kids, plus ive decently large hands.

[jackpilot]

Fighter MFD - Mark I - Demo
Not sure they still do it but they used to, check the demo at
www.projectmagenta.com

also:

[ebay]380331989508[/ebay]
[ebay]380331761863[/ebay]
[ebay]250802440201[/ebay]

[Grind and Click]

Fighter MFD??

Those sticks look great, bit on the pricy side, might grab one over time, going to get the pit up and going with what we have for now. But thanks alot!

I did see some real navigator switches on there for not too bad a price, so may get those

http://cgi.ebay.com/USN-Grumman-A-6-Intruder-Tacan-Navigation-Console-Box-/370498483855?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item56436e368f

-edit- in hindsight i think i didnt make sense, the stick is perfect, but if theres a cheap joystick that looks a bit like the real thing were going with that for now is all, but prob will in future, its just so it looks the part for now, seeing as we have that gear lying around as well.