Projectors or 4K Monitors?

[Captbrian]

Hi, I know this is been posted somewhat before.   I know there will be a better Immersive experience with 180 projector system.  Building a 737NG cockpit in my basement.  Don't have very high ceilings,  maybe 8 feet.  Main FS computer is Processor: i7-4770K @ 3.50GHz (64 bit)
Memory: 16 gigs DDR3
GTX 770 GPU
Liquid Cooled Processor: Corsair Hydro Series 7289
Power Supply: 1000W

I work in IT so I can get as many older CPU's as I need.  Most are used Dell i5 2200 with 8GB.

So getting to my question.  Should I go with projectors using these older PC's running Wieview or go 4K monitors/TV's and plug those into my FS PC's?   Then run my MIP screens on the other PC's with Magenta?  I guess I am looking for the best FPS with each solution.  I know G-sync will be better with the 4K. 

Too much info out there!!! UGGGGG

Thanks!

Brian

[XOrionFE]

Monitors any day of the week.   MY .02.

Projectors are way overrated and a pita.   Everyone talks about immersion but I can say from experience that immersion is no better on projectors than it is with wrap around monitors.   Anyone who says otherwise has not truly experienced both.   Projectors are also more complex and will never never look as high contrast and as much detail as monitors.    Add 4K monitors to the mix and they will completely smoke a projector view.     That said, be aware that running 4K on three from screens with individual viewpoints on each is probably going to crush in the the top 1080 TI card today.  I would buy 4k monitors today but run at 1080p for performance until you can get the right cards or video cards get even better to support 4k on 3 screens at once off a single card.     You would likely need multiple 1080 TI cards and they are impossible to buy right now.    Wideview is also a PITA.  Clouds never sink right, you need to use a special weather connector to try an sync, I believe from past experience that WideTraffic is also not always working for traffic.   I have some older videos up on youtube describing these issues.   Fred is the wizard here in using it but I would say it is not for the faint of heart.   Takes a ton of maintenance to keep all computers running and setup with all the same scenery etc.   

The only way I would suggest projectors (which on the plus side can of course fully wrap a cockpit with only 3 compared to needing 5 screens if using TVs....) would be if you could afford a NatVIS pro setup.   That is probably about the best they can be from what I have seen though never saw one of NAT's setups with my own eyes.   I also think that because of the complexity of wideview (for those using FSX or P3D) running 3 screens is easiest off one computer.   Disadvantage of monitiors is you will not get the same wraparound and immersion with 3 monitors as you would with 3 projectors.   Projects win here.   Finally, switch to X-Plane and networked views on mulitple pcs is built in and works fantastic.   Same weather sync issues as wideview on P3d or FSX though.   X-Plane hasnt solved that yet either.

As for your older computers...they would work fine for your avionics screens (Prosim, Sim-A,or PM).   They are worthless for your outside views though.

Ok projector and wideview folks...feel free to flame....lol


Scott

[FredK]

I think some issues are getting a bit confused here, so some clarification......

Regarding performance:   

Sim performance has nothing to do with projectors vs. monitors...run each at the same resolution and you will get the same result.  That said, if you choose to do a curved projection screen you will need to use a warping program which will degrade your image slightly.  If you go with a flat screen projection there is no difference.

Sim performance is CPU-limited.  The value of a multichannel (multi-computer) visual system is that it provides significantly greater computing power over a multi-display running off a single computer,  and the difference there is no where even close.  As a specific example, in my three projector WideView setup I have Ultimate Traffic Live running at 100% traffic settings at FlightBeam KSFO (order of magnitude...something like 300 planes...I cannot even find an open gate to park at). All the while the performance result is absolutely smooth (no choppiness whatsoever) with frames that never drop anywhere near below 30.  The same at any other payware airport.  That level of performance is simply not achievable in a multi-display single computer setup.

In that regard as Scott points out 4K is not possible with a single computer running multi-displays.  Although I have no experience with 4K panel displays I would venture to say such would be possible to run in a multi-display setup using WideView if that degree of resolution fidelity is your particular interest. 

Regarding WideView:

Very assuredly there is no issue at all with weather synchronization using WideView.  What Scott is referring to is the WideView of many years past.  All weather including individual clouds sync 100%....absolutely!

WideView per se requires no special weather programs...you can use your favorite.  However I choose to use FS Global Weather with WV since it is the only weather program that will transfer weather over a network outside of the WV program.  This serves to maximize overall performance for a multi-core computer since the program is running in a separate thread.

Very assuredly also,  AI traffic syncs 100% even given the busiest situations that I have referenced above.

There is always a price to pay though........I do agree that WideView is a beast to setup and maintain given the fact that you are dealing with multiple computers and the cost thereof (although the WV program itself is very easy to setup).

As I mentioned in the other thread I had high hopes that P3Dv4 64-bit would finally release me from the WV beast.  My hopes were dashed though when I tried using it in a single channel using the best possible combination of CPU and GPU. Possible yes, but not at the performance level I am used to.

All this said I am the first one to say that Scott has a very impressive and admirable setup.  This hobby comes down to a matter of trade-offs in terms of what is most important to you.

Fred K

[Ed]

I think some issues are getting a bit confused here, so some clarification......







As I mentioned in the other thread I had high hopes that P3Dv4 64-bit would finally release me from the WV beast.  My hopes were dashed though when I tried using it in a single channel using the best possible combination of CPU and GPU. Possible yes, but not at the performance level I am used to.


Fred K

Hi Fred,

When you tested  with P3D4, did you test with View Groups (professional License) or the Multi Channel that is offered with the Professional Plus License?

I myself have decided to go with 60 " Samsung TV's but have not yet decided whether to go WideView or Professional Plus Multi Channel.

[FredK]

Ed - I am using WideView with Fly Elise,  View Groups,  and the P3Dv4 Academic license. 

I have not investigated the P3D Pro version for multichannel.  Previous reports claimed it did not work as well as WideView....that may have changed with P3Dv4.  I really do not know though.  I have queried that question on the P3D forum a couple of times without a response.

Fred K

[Captbrian]

Thanks all for the Reply and the info! 

Fred,  When you run WideView what are the computer specs you are running it on?    Also the Warp software you are using I looked at.  What version?   It says PC Lock or USB dungle.  So does that mean you can only run fly elise on one PC when using WideView? 

Can someone explain what you mean Multi Channel?   

Thanks guys!  I am sure I will have more questions.   I owe you all a Beer! 

Brian

[navymustang]

Brian, I also want to second Fred's post. I get it that people love LCD monitors - they are crisp and clear. But I argue that you will feel the immersive difference.

And I also agree that WideView and WideTraffic is the way to go. Incredible software. Turns out my rig is nearly identical to Fred's with a PC driving each of the three projectors and a master visual computer and host computer.

I have the Professional Plus license for P3D, and still have not got Multichannel working correctly. So will stay with WideView for the near future.

Multichannel simply means that there are multiple copies of P3D on different computers synchronized to the same visual scene.

[XOrionFE]

Will still disagree on the comments about immersion.   No difference between the two as long as your windshield is full all the way around....none whatsoever.  But you have to judge for yourself with your own eyes.   Don't take my word or anyone elses.....visit a couple examples before spending your hard earned dollars to see what looks and works best for you...the travel expense will be worth it..

Fred, great to hear that Wideview and Widetraffic are working now.  I had given up on them.   I have a question for you.   If you install P3d for instance on the main computer along with all of your cloud textures (AS or Rex, etc) then your scenery such as ORBX, Aerosoft airports, or Gex and the like, and things like GSX or other utilities...do you have to go through all those same install steps on each visual client pc or is there an easy shortcut such as install P3D but then just copying certain folders?    This was perhaps always my main frustration with wideview and netowrked PCs which is why in the end I settled for the simplicity of 3 screens on one computer with view groups.   Yes performance was not going to be AS good but was still very good to me.    In X-Plane one can literally just copy folders off the master and your done...really simple.

Scott

[727737Nut]

This topic is a no brainer at today's low tv cost.  Hell you can buy 4K TVs for less than 400 bucks.  Sorry fellas, once you fly the clarity you would never go back to flying the day out dark in fuzzy dull no black night having projectors.   And yes. I am qualified to say that.  I am a former projector junky. Lol.   Make it easy on yourself fellas. I have one PC running my entire very complex Sim and 2 50" 4K TVs    I turn in the power  start the LC and I fly.  No dicking around with stupid stuff.   We all have our opinions but Scott was right! Do yourself a huge favor. Spend a little money and visit people with each option and see for yourself!  Oh and 100$ reward for the first projector night scene photographed with full room lighting on and I can still make out the VASI at 10dme.  Lol

[FredK]

Thanks all for the Reply and the info! 

Fred,  When you run WideView what are the computer specs you are running it on?    Also the Warp software you are using I looked at.  What version?   It says PC Lock or USB dungle.  So does that mean you can only run fly elise on one PC when using WideView? 

Can someone explain what you mean Multi Channel?   

Thanks guys!  I am sure I will have more questions.   I owe you all a Beer! 

Brian

"Multi-channel" means "multi-computer".

Listed below are my computer specs.  They are arguably the best combination of CPU and GPU for flight simming right now.  However, mid-range computers will work fine for WideView (I was using four year old I7-4790K / 980 GPU computers with P3dv3).

Computer Specs:

WV Server (main P3D computer, not used for an outside view): I7-7700K / GT1080
WV Client (left view): I7-8700K / GT1080Ti
WV Client (center view): I7-8700K / GT1080Ti
WV Client (right view): I7-8700K / GT1080Ti
SimAvionics Server: I7-4790K / GT1080 (my old WV computer re-purposed)
SimAvionics Client: I7-4790K / GT 980 (my old WV computer re-purposed)

Fly Elise:

I am using the PC lock version.  No problems doing it that way.  It never fails. You will need 3 separate licenses for the display software, and a single license for the calibration software.  If you replace a computer or change a video card, etc. you will need to get a new software code to match that hardware.  Fly Elise has been excellent in responding rapidly for new software codes....always within 24 hours or less.

And Yes...There is an expense factor going this route, but it results in the best possible performance by far.......for either projectors or flat panels.

Fred K

[FredK]

Fred, great to hear that Wideview and Widetraffic are working now.  I had given up on them.   I have a question for you.   If you install P3d for instance on the main computer along with all of your cloud textures (AS or Rex, etc) then your scenery such as ORBX, Aerosoft airports, or Gex and the like, and things like GSX or other utilities...do you have to go through all those same install steps on each visual client pc or is there an easy shortcut such as install P3D but then just copying certain folders?    This was perhaps always my main frustration with wideview and netowrked PCs which is why in the end I settled for the simplicity of 3 screens on one computer with view groups.   Yes performance was not going to be AS good but was still very good to me.    In X-Plane one can literally just copy folders off the master and your done...really simple.

Yes....There clearly is a significant extra effort to load each WV computer.  Just about everything needs to be reloaded, not copied.  There are some exceptions like AI traffic files, but suffice it to say everything has to be reloaded.  Typically it will take me about 2-3 days of work to build a new computer from scratch, load Windows, and load P3D with all my add-ons etc.  Times that by 3 or 4 computers and you are talking two weeks of work...once every 3-4 years which is the typical obsolence cycle.  That of course is without factoring in do-overs along the way.  I am retired so time is not critical....it is good therapy to keep my brain neurons firing.  This hobby is a time consuming black hole anyhow.  But that is what a hobby is all about.

Perhaps the easiest way to do it would be via cloning.  Set up one computer as you normally would and then simply clone it.  The clone would also come in handy if you needed to do a rebuild down the road.  I have not investigated any of that, but I am told it is doable.  I prefer the grunt therapy method.

Once it is all setup it is really not much more complicated to run than a single computer setup....just a few extra clicks of a mouse here and there.

And YES.....No one is denying that a multi-channel setup is clearly more of an effort to setup and maintain.  But it does deliver the best possible sim performance.....for either projectors or flat screens.

Fred K

[Philip]

Hey Brian,

I'm in the same boat as you, and getting close to start planning out what I'm going to do for visuals as well. A lot of great feedback from the ones with it up and running already....Decisions, decisions.....

I see you are in Berkeley. Would that be in California by any chance? If so, I'm right down the road from you in Walnut Creek. Maybe we can put our heads together and figure it out one day. I sent you a PM.

Philip

[RayS]

My $0.02 worth...

The 'world' isn't a 4K super-contrast, 4000 lumens, 120,000:1 contrast ratio. In my opinion, projectors render a better outside view than any LCD tv. The realism is in a projector's shortcomings.

...and go!

[XOrionFE]

Fred, great to hear that Wideview and Widetraffic are working now.  I had given up on them.   I have a question for you.   If you install P3d for instance on the main computer along with all of your cloud textures (AS or Rex, etc) then your scenery such as ORBX, Aerosoft airports, or Gex and the like, and things like GSX or other utilities...do you have to go through all those same install steps on each visual client pc or is there an easy shortcut such as install P3D but then just copying certain folders?    This was perhaps always my main frustration with wideview and netowrked PCs which is why in the end I settled for the simplicity of 3 screens on one computer with view groups.   Yes performance was not going to be AS good but was still very good to me.    In X-Plane one can literally just copy folders off the master and your done...really simple.

Yes....There clearly is a significant extra effort to load each WV computer.  Just about everything needs to be reloaded, not copied.  There are some exceptions like AI traffic files, but suffice it to say everything has to be reloaded.  Typically it will take me about 2-3 days of work to build a new computer from scratch, load Windows, and load P3D with all my add-ons etc.  Times that by 3 or 4 computers and you are talking two weeks of work...once every 3-4 years which is the typical obsolence cycle.  That of course is without factoring in do-overs along the way.  I am retired so time is not critical....it is good therapy to keep my brain neurons firing.  This hobby is a time consuming black hole anyhow.  But that is what a hobby is all about.

Perhaps the easiest way to do it would be via cloning.  Set up one computer as you normally would and then simply clone it.  The clone would also come in handy if you needed to do a rebuild down the road.  I have not investigated any of that, but I am told it is doable.  I prefer the grunt therapy method.

Once it is all setup it is really not much more complicated to run than a single computer setup....just a few extra clicks of a mouse here and there.

And YES.....No one is denying that a multi-channel setup is clearly more of an effort to setup and maintain.  But it does deliver the best possible sim performance.....for either projectors or flat screens.

Fred K

Thank you Fred.    If I ever end up switching back to P3D I surely will end up setting up wideview in the end and having to domthe work as it would be difficult to go back to 3 Screens and lose my wrap around and immersion.   At least I know now that it would work and dont have to do all the work only to find out clouds and traffic dont.     I appreciate the insight.

[Bob Reed]

  I am running a far from perfect setup. I am using mis matched screens. By this I mean I am using 2 50" plasma screens for the front view and 2 42" Viso tvs for the side views and they are not the same model.  1070ti for my GDU and an old i7 gen2 for a computer. All 4 screens run off the 1070. The 2 50" screens set up as 1 100" screen. I have flown many projector setups and having done so would not trade my hodge podge setup for any of them. Night is the biggest difference and with the improvements made by P3d v4 for night flying.... There is no going back. This is of course just my opinion! Your milage may differ....

[XOrionFE]

My $0.02 worth...

The 'world' isn't a 4K super-contrast, 4000 lumens, 120,000:1 contrast ratio. In my opinion, projectors render a better outside view than any LCD tv. The realism is in a projector's shortcomings.

...and go!

Technically speaking...anyone using projectors should salivate at the idea of someday perhaps getting a 4K projector.   When you blow an image up to the size typically done on projectors and bring the image in as close as we do for our sims, 4K would yield much much smaller pixel size thous making the view look much smoother and better than a 1080p projected image.    On TVs one would have a hard time realistically noticing the difference on a smaller screen (say less than 50") especially at any distance.   However bring it on the desktop 2-3 ft from your eyes and it would be a noticable difference though much more noticable if on a 60 or 70 inch display at 3 ft.   I believe 1080 P is fine for a 60 inch TV at 3-4 ft because any possible notice of pixel size (which my eyes personally cannot detect) is far outweighed by the increaseed performance and framerate at the lower resolution.   If however I was running projectors I would long for more resolution.   I ran 1080 P projectors in a wrap around setup for 3 years.   I hated the screen door affect and from an outside view look...@Ray....it looked like washed out crap.   Could never clearly read taxi signs until right up on top of them and not moving....vasis were washed out looking on approach, details in things were always subdoed.    In fact I went over to my friends house last fall who has projectors with a 210 degree curved screen setup (he is a CB member here and also the proud owner of Maurices old NG sim) and we flew a little.   It looked like crap again to me and only served to remind me just how awesome the tvs looked in contrast.   Btw- after flying in my sim he is currently tearing out his custom built curved screen wall and going to TVs.

Like I have said before...seeing in person for ones self is best.

Scott

[727737Nut]

My $0.02 worth...

The 'world' isn't a 4K super-contrast, 4000 lumens, 120,000:1 contrast ratio. In my opinion, projectors render a better outside view than any LCD tv. The realism is in a projector's shortcomings.

...and go!

Having met you Ray and knowing your knowledge and skill set that was a very disappointing statement.  But since Scott already ripped it to shreds I'll refrain from further comment.    Also I think maybe you ought to visit a local bestbuy or something and look at an LED TV built in the last 2 years   Clarity. Clarity clarity    One more joke.   Oh how I miss the days of announcing airport not in site when I'm only 5 miles away looking through my screen door 120" projector screen   Lmao

[Bob Reed]

I agree with what is a common theme here. Go see some of the sims out there and see what it all looks like in person. Most folks would love to share their setups with you. Spend a little time and money and do the leg work. That will allow you to make an educated decision on what YOU like best and make a new friend or 2 along the way!

[FredK]

The welcome mat is always out here in Williamsburg Virginia!

Fred K

[727737Nut]

I agree with what is a common theme here. Go see some of the sims out there and see what it all looks like in person. Most folks would love to share their setups with you. Spend a little time and money and do the leg work. That will allow you to make an educated decision on what YOU like best and make a new friend or 2 along the way!

Very well said Mr Reed!  My door is open to anyone to visit.  I get the same comments over and over, the pics and video's online don't do it justice!  Hence the reason to visit fellow builders in person. 

[iwik]

C'mon guys, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Les

[Trevor Hale]

C'mon guys, beauty is in the eyes of the beholder.
Les

you mean  "BEER-Holder"

[Ed]

Ed - I am using WideView with Fly Elise,  View Groups,  and the P3Dv4 Academic license. 

I have not investigated the P3D Pro version for multichannel.  Previous reports claimed it did not work as well as WideView....that may have changed with P3Dv4.  I really do not know though.  I have queried that question on the P3D forum a couple of times without a response.

Fred K

Thanks for info Fred. I see later in the thread that Jim has tried with the Pro Plus Multi Channel and to date has been unsuccessful, so wideView still seems the best way to go. Apparently X-Plane works well with multiple screens but I use Prosim for my Avionics so that's a no go for me. I think I will still give the Pro Plus a try before I discount it completely.

[RayS]

I think the comparison suffers from technical inequality. Pit a $3000 4K 75" flatscreen against a $800 1080p projector and the winner is clear. I would offer that if you invest the same amount into a better projector and some of those quality differences start to equal out.

Will a projector ever compete with a 4K OLED TV? Probably not, unless you're willing to invest upwards of $25,000 for pro projector rig.

At some point though, diminishing returns take over.

While a projected screen may never reach the quality of a 4K tv, I'll enjoy my slightly diminished 3-projector 220-degree seamless wraparound screen and you TV guys can enjoy your hyper-realistic 4K displays interspersed with a few giant black vertical bars.

typed with love 

[Flying_Fox]

I currently have 220 degree view with three GT1080 Darbees and single 4790/980Ti.
For me the immersion is more about the ability to look down from the side windows and see the scenery below you.

Not going to play a devil advocate here.
Besides, who cares about the opinion of an old ElephantAir737 ?