How to eliminate the crabbing effect from the captain's side

[Maurice]

Disclaimer: The info below applies mostly to anyone using 3 projectors with a TripleHead2Go, but it could also help when using one projector only.

First, a bit of background:

A year ago or so, when I first set up my 3 projectors, I was amazed by the visuals but the one thing that really struck me when I sat in the cockpit was how weird & unpleasant it felt because of the crabbing effect. So I started reading about this topic and there were many opinions on how to improve it by playing around with the Eyepoint settings in the aircraft.cfg file.

Whatever setting you tried always involved a compromise of some sort; you could make it a bit better for the captain but the first officer was much worse or you could make it equally unpleasant for both captain & F.O. Since I very seldom have visiting pilots, I set it up so that it looked the best for me but the best was definitely still not the correct alignment as you would see in a real plane.

Nevertheless, I got used to the crabbing effect to the point that it became fairly normal for me and I thought I had licked the problem. So imagine my surprise when real pilot visited my sim. Angus was already quite familiar with the crabbing effect but his friend Joe who flies triple 7s was really amazed at the visuals, but when he sat in the captain's seat,  his first comment was how weird it felt because of the crabbing effect.

This really surprised me because I had gotten so used to it that I thought the crabbing effect no longer existed. Anyway, Joe also got used to it and soon figured out how to taxi and stay in the center line.

But this bothered me a lot and I was determined to try again and see if there was any way to make it perfect or at least much better for the captain. I was not concerned at all about how it would look for the F.O. since any visiting pilots would also sit in the captain's seat. So back to the drawing board with the Eyepoint settings but no joy in finding the sweet spot.

I then thought that if I moved/rotated the platform, I could maybe align it so that the captain's view would be correct. So I angled the platform so that the front screen was no longer perpendicular to the shell and this seemed to improve things a bit but having the platform at an angle looked like crap and out of kilter.

The Solution:

And that's when I had my Eureka moment. Instead of rotating the platform, why not try to rotate the cameras in the Views section in the .FLT files. If your setup is like mine, the center view in that file shows that the camera has 0 rotation like this: Rotation= 0, 0, 0

So I started changing the rotation angle (center value) in increments and the crabbing effect got less & less as I increased the angle. Of course, when I changed the rotation in the center view, I also had to change it by the same amount and direction in the side views. So here is what I mean and what my settings look like today. If you choose to try that, you may likely have to change the rotation value to suit your particular setup. In my case, a change of 12 degrees seems like the optimal change in the rotation angles. In my example below, the original rotation for the side views was 80 degrees because my total wraparound view covers 240 degrees (3x80). Your rotation number will likely be different but the principle is the same. Here is what mine shows:

[Camera.2.1]
Guid={B1386D92-4782-4682-A137-738E25D1BAB5}
Zoom=0.57499998807907104
Translation=0, 0, 0
Rotation=0, -68, 0   //Original setting was 0, -80, 0   (left view)


[Camera.3.1]
Guid={B1386D92-4782-4682-A137-738E25D1BAB5}
Zoom=0.57499998807907104
Translation=0, 0, 0
Rotation=0, 12, 0     //Original setting was 0, 0, 0    (center view)


[Camera.4.1]
Guid={B1386D92-4782-4682-A137-738E25D1BAB5}
Zoom=0.57499998807907104
Translation=0, 0, 0
Rotation=0, 92, 0     //Original setting was 0, 80, 0   (right view)

Anyway, as things stand now, I do not see any crabbing effect at all. When I sit in the captain's seat and look straight ahead, the runway center line also looks straight ahead and in line with my nose (big nose at that) and not to the right side . The difference was pleasantly shocking to me and I kept trying it both ways to see if I really licked this problem. Of course, the F.O. view has become totally horrible but as I said, who cares when I'm flying alone. All non-flying visitors were aware of the bad crabbing effect from the F.O side anyway.

And here is another bonus good side effect (to be confirmed still). Previously, no matter how good I was aligned with the runway on short final, I always had to do last minute corrections when I passed the threshold because it always looked like the plane had drifted to the side. But now, the plane stays perfectly centered and landing on the center line seems appreciably easier. If the center line is straight ahead on final, it remains straight ahead as you near touchdown assuming there is no wind of course.

In the pictures I attached, I positioned the top down view so that the plane seen from the top is aligned with my nose in all the pics when I look straight ahead. As you can easily see, the F.O. view is totally out of kilter but the captain's view is pretty close to perfect as far as I can tell. 

I hope some of you try this simple test and let me know what you think. Perhaps I have overlooked something and this has created some bad effects somewhere else so the more opinions, the better.

There may be crabbing relief after all  .

Maurice

Note: Odd numbered pictures have crabbing correction and even numbered pictures are not corrected. In both cases, the settings in the aircraft.cfg file are the default settings:
[Views]
Eyepoint = 48.2, -1.55, 1.9

[ivar hestnes]

Very good thinking Maurice.
To compensate for the FO side that now got worse, you could try to move the visuals sideways in the FLT file. Might do the trick for FO side. Cant remember the key command, but a quick google and you will find it.

[blueskydriver]

Awesome! Going to set this up now, but before I do I have a suggestion/question? There is a way to setup Camera views and assign them to keys, so how about the setup for Captains side, and then setup for FO side, both with assigned keys. Thus, when you're flying with both, you could just press a key to change sides. Would that be possible?

BSD

[Trevor Hale]

Mau, thanks for taking the time to post this.  It really will be a big help to everyone.  Thanks a bundle.

Trev

[Maurice]

Very good thinking Maurice.
To compensate for the FO side that now got worse, you could try to move the visuals sideways in the FLT file. Might do the trick for FO side. Cant remember the key command, but a quick google and you will find it.

Not sure I understand what you are saying here Ivar, but I did make my changes in the .FLT file. I don't see how I could improve both the captain's view & the F.O view at the same time. However, if I missed something and you are able to do that, I would love to hear exactly how you did it.  If there is a better mousetrap, I want it

Maurice

[XOrionFE]

I was wondering what you were getting at here.  I actually changed my rotations a long time in the .flt file.  You can also mess with the other values there to shift left or right or even up and down.   I ended up wanting mine centered on the center post as viewed from the cabin door so I shifted the view and rotated until the runway centerline was perfectly aligned to the center post.  Yes for mine I have the crab effect still but only because for 737 flying I specifically chose to have same view for capt or FO.   But when I fly a ga plane in the sim I do more like what you did and center on the captain.   Sorry as I thought the flit file angles and shifting was already widely known or I would have posted a year ago :-).    Glad you found a nice setting for yours Maurice.   Now you can enjoy.    Good point about guests always generally getting the capt seat though.  I may just decide to do that also. 

Scott

[Maurice]

See my comments in blue below.

You can also mess with the other values there to shift left or right or even up and down.

Shifting up & down works a little bit only but if I shift up too much, the views no longer align properly (at least that is what I found)

I ended up wanting mine centered on the center post as viewed from the cabin door so I shifted the view and rotated until the runway centerline was perfectly aligned to the center post. This is exactly what I have too if I leave 0 rotation in the center view. I did not need to rotate anything to align the runway centerline with the center post and I assume this was because the center projector is perfectly aligned with the center of the screen, but maybe it was just luck 

Yes for mine I have the crab effect still but only because for 737 flying I specifically chose to have same view for capt or FO.   But when I fly a ga plane in the sim I do more like what you did and center on the captain.   Sorry as I thought the flit file angles and shifting was already widely known or I would have posted a year ago :-). No problem. At least more people will know about this now    Glad you found a nice setting for yours Maurice.   Now you can enjoy.    Good point about guests always generally getting the capt seat though.  I may just decide to do that also. I know that Angus has the captain's monitor setup so that the view is perfect for the captain only. Since he is using wideview with separate PCs each running FS9, I wonder if he could also setup the F.O. monitor so that the F.O. view is perfect as well. I will be seeing him next week, so I will discuss that with him

Scott

[FredK]

I have a three projector setup onto a curved screen using WideView and Nthusim. To eliminate the crabbing effect I elected to offset my curved screen so that it is positioned at a constant radial from the pilot's eye position (that is, it is not concentric with the cockpit but is positioned to the left of center). This totally eliminates the crabbing effect from the pilot's perspective, but of course exacerbates the effect from the co-pilots position.

My logic is that most of the time I am flying alone so the copilot seat is not an issue, and when I do have guests over it is the guest that is in the pilot seat while I am busy with the controls and not looking out the window anyhow. It works for me.

I believe what Maurice has described in essence gets at doing the same thing by shifting the camera view perspective to the left. But no matter what you do with adjustments the issue will always be a compromised view perspective when your eyepoint is not at a constant radial to the screen.

Fred K

[XOrionFE]

Ok, you guys are really convincing me to move the eye point to captains side.  Just another quick question then?

I wonder if you have split yokes or yokes that are linked?  So as not to derail this thread I will post in a new topic.

Scott

[Maurice]

Well it appears there is no such thing as a free lunch when it comes to FS  . With the rotation values I mentioned above, the view is perfect for the captain, but the side views are now much too skewed and not quite where they should be since everything was rotated.

So I reduced the rotation to 8 degrees instead of 12 and this looks like a very reasonable compromise. The captain view is still very good and the side views are better as well. So these are my current settings (subject to change with or without notice of course  )

If you try this, you may want to experiment & find the values that work best for you.

And by the way Scott, I do have linked yokes.

[Camera.2.1]
Guid={B1386D92-4782-4682-A137-738E25D1BAB5}
Zoom=0.57499998807907104
Translation=0, 0, 0
Rotation=0, -72, 0   //Original setting was 0, -80, 0   (left view)


[Camera.3.1]
Guid={B1386D92-4782-4682-A137-738E25D1BAB5}
Zoom=0.57499998807907104
Translation=0, 0, 0
Rotation=0, 8, 0     //Original setting was 0, 0, 0    (center view)


[Camera.4.1]
Guid={B1386D92-4782-4682-A137-738E25D1BAB5}
Zoom=0.57499998807907104
Translation=0, 0, 0
Rotation=0, 88, 0     //Original setting was 0, 80, 0   (right view)


Maurice

[ivar hestnes]

When you rotate all the views, you also change the main axis of your centre view. So... what I mean, if you then move your views slightly sideways, to move the centre view closer to FO side, it might give the FO a increased realism.

When you on the tarmac... try to press ALT-enter/back, ctrl-enter/back or something like that. (cant remember the command exactly) The command you use in a "virtual cockpit" for moving sideways inside the cockpit. This will move your views sideways. Do it for one window, save it, and check the FLT file which parameter has been changed.

An other thing you could try for the heck of it, is to set up your visual with 4 views. Dont bother with the borderlines that for sure will appear then... Just for experimentation     Set one view to the left, and one view to the right as normal. Then two fwd wiews, which points slightly to the left, and one pointing slightly to the right. But for sure noe you must master the sideways movement. The slightly left angle must be adjusted offset to the left. And the FO side, must be moved sideways to the right.  Also now the sideviews must be adjusted sideways to move the "basepoint" further away from our centre of radius, since we have done that with the fwd views.

And at the same time implement your rotation sequence for capt side, and rotate it slightly the other way for FO views. Basically you angle/rotate the two capt windows for capt side best experience, and then angle/rotates the two FO views for FO best experience.

Hard to explain my ideas here. But hope you get it 
Not 100% sure if it works though, but I am pretty confident it does.

[Maurice]

When you rotate all the views, you also change the main axis of your centre view. So... what I mean, if you then move your views slightly sideways, to move the centre view closer to FO side, it might give the FO a increased realism.

............


An other thing you could try for the heck of it, is to set up your visual with 4 views.

I think the first part you mentioned can be done with the eyepoint setting in the aircraft.cfg file. I'll have to check it and see how far I can go with that.

As for the second part of your suggestions, there is no way on earth I am going to touch that with a 10ft pole unless they come up with a cheap 10 Ghz CPU. I don't think seeing a slide show with perfectly aligned views is worth it  . And besides, as I said earlier, the F.O. seat is empty 99.9999% of the time, so who cares? 

Maurice

[jackpilot]

I'm with Mau on that one.

PS: just a thought, but real easy to experiment on your setup Mau
If, instead of turning the plateform at an small angle , you just "translate" it slightly closer to one side of the screen. (left or right , I'm not sure)
Probably does not work but easy to try with the casters.
Jack

[carlos hermida]

   Just my suggestion in this topic...
   I was flying like Scott using the center post as reference but a few months ago I found that using EZDOCK Camera I was able to configure CAPT VIEW, POST VIEW and FO VIEW configuring each one for the point that really makes crabs effects out and the best is that you could configure a key or button ( in my case HORN CUTOUT from my TQ ) to cycle views as desire from CAPT/CENTER POST / FO just pressing the button when desired the right view.

   It is working like a charm in my sim for any of these views...

Here is the link of the program:

http://www.flight1.com/products.asp?product=ezdockcam

Carlos

[Maurice]

   Just my suggestion in this topic...
   I was flying like Scott using the center post as reference but a few months ago I found that using EZDOCK Camera I was able to configure CAPT VIEW, POST VIEW and FO VIEW configuring each one for the point that really makes crabs effects out and the best is that you could configure a key or button ( in my case HORN CUTOUT from my TQ ) to cycle views as desire from CAPT/CENTER POST / FO just pressing the button when desired the right view.

   It is working like a charm in my sim for any of these views...


Carlos

Hi Carlos,

Can you quickly describe your visuals? Are you using 3 projectors as well with 3 undocked views? I'm asking because the program description only refers to "easy navigation throughout the virtual cockpit" & I am wondering what this program would do with 3 distinct 2D undocked views with 180+ degrees visuals.

Thanks,
Maurice

[XOrionFE]

Me too..

If it works with undocked views on a three projector system it sounds like just what the doctor ordered.  Any way you could do a quick video of it Carlos?

Scott

[blueskydriver]

This is what I'm talking about, but with three views not sure it will...

[Maurice]

This is what I'm talking about, but with three views not sure it will...

Not a chance in a billion I would say, but I would love to be wrong 

Maurice

[carlos hermida]

Hi all,

   I am out of home with family until next saturday , but I will try to explain how it works with my visual system until I could make a video or post some pics that talks better than words.

   I my case I am not using projectors but 3 LED TV's with matrox triplehead2go digital and not any undocked view,  so I am afraid that my solution could work with undocked views.

   What  EZDock program makes is to set ANY  position of an external camera in a easy interface, just using your keyboard to move it on  all directions and then after reaching the camera position view , you could save it like CAPT VIEW for example or any other that you want like WING VIEW, GROUND PUSHBACK VIEW etc...to a easy menu interface in the program. After saving this cabin views in this menu you could set a keyboard key to change the views. Each  time that you press the assigned key it wil cycle the views that you saved in this menu and in my case, CAPT SIDE VIEW, CENTER POST VIEW and FO SIDE VIEW. I  have used the TQ horncutout button to do this job using FSUIPC to be easy to change on any time of the flight.

    The programs allows you to activate a lot of other functions for each view like shake your view in turbulence and others that didn't test it yet.

     For now I am very happy just to have the right view for each pilots side  when someone arrives to enjoy the sim but as I said I really don't know if it works with undocked views. 

      I think that I have the manual of EZDOCK here in my iPad, if you want or others I could send it for a more detail information of it, just send me your email via private and I foward it ok.

      So, I expect that helped in something...

Carlos

     
 

[Maurice]

Thank you Carlos. It looks like this would also work with 3 projectors but only if using one view spread over the 3 projectors much like you are doing with your 3 LED TVs.

However, with 3 undocked views, this would not work since they are in essence three separate views. You could actually easily test that by opening 2 more views (right & left for instance) & placing them on top of your existing view in the right & left TVs.

You could then use EZDock to change from captain view to F.O. view & see if the views in the right & left TVs change as well. My guess is that the right & left views will remain the same, but that would be an easy way to confirm my suspicions.

I suppose that changing all views would be possible if the program was smart enough to know that the view has to be changed for any additional opened window. In theory, this looks totally feasible but I doubt that the developers had this functionality in mind.

Anyway, thanks again for taking the time to explain EZDock,

Maurice

[Angus Wighton]

Maurice, you wrote:  "I know that Angus has the captain's monitor setup so that the view is perfect for the captain only.  Since he is using wideview with separate PCs each running FS9, I wonder if he could also setup the F.O. monitor so that the F.O. view is perfect as well.  I will be seeing him next week, so I will discuss that with him"

My design, with 7 wrap-around PC monitors, represented my desire for a more realistic visual system - a more immersive sense of movement and banking turns.  At the time most sims had a single projector & screen out front ... long before the spectacular 3-projector systems of today.  I was immediately unhappy with unrealistic "crabbing" flight path when on approach and soon centered the visuals on the Captains monitor. 

Feeling bad for the First Officers view now experiencing an even-more exaggerated "crabbing" effect I did consider matching the runway-centered view on each side - until I realized a minute later - that during a banking turn the horizon would no longer be "continuous" across all 7 monitors (or full 180 degree view) .... who wants to see a jagged horizon?! 

So, in my sim, by choice its all about the left seat!  Those that want to fly it, all want to fly it from the left seat by preference anyway - so those in the right seat are just "crabby" until they get to move over to the left seat themselves.  Also, my experience has been that - from the jumpseat - the visuals also look perfect, so its really just a right-seat issue, which is most noticeable on taxi, and approach.  Once in flight you really don't see the effect at all because of the depth of field and distance to the horizon.

However, as with anything to do with your simulators - its all about YOUR personal preferences.  So keep in mind that there is no right or wrong way to build or design your sim .... make it best suit your needs and desires!

[Flying_Fox]

Thank you Carlos. It looks like this would also work with 3 projectors but only if using one view spread over the 3 projectors much like you are doing with your 3 LED TVs.

However, with 3 undocked views, this would not work since they are in essence three separate views. You could actually easily test that by opening 2 more views (right & left for instance) & placing them on top of your existing view in the right & left TVs.

I can confirm that EZDok camera works only with single wide front view window. I already experimented with it last week. EZdok works with only one active window, and it was specifically confirmed by the EZDok developer here:

http://www.simforums.com/forums/multiple-monitors_topic34032.html

Seems there are no current plans to support undocked views for EZDok. Pity. 

In addition, I've read some speculations (on Russian AVSim forum) about that with the approach used in EZDok software  it's not possible to work with anything but active window. Don't know if this is true or not.

Nick

[neuman5022]

Hello Guys,

I am running FSX with Matrox2 on one big screen. All was good and I was quite happy until a real world 737 pilot came to visit, and he was complainig about not having the center line like it should. Hence me getting into the "crabing" problem.


Tried for hours all the data I could put my hand on, but no joy, it's eithet or. ..

I have noticed when changing the eye view in the Panel.cfg file, it is also changing the FLT file data - so this seems to be all the same.

Got me real good one for the cpt, reversed the numbers for the F/O, but for flying as a crew, I guess the dafault view will do. (I have aligned the centre  post with the runway)

Had some trouble to land with the crew option but when I tried to align the aircraft not with my nose but with the post, it got quite easier.  For ref, I am using the left hand side of the runway to aim it, and this usually gets me in better position then before.

My two bits.


Thank you guys for your ideas, was nice to see I am not alone in this :-)

cheers

Isaac