Need help making a decision about a 737 throttle quadrant - please

[kattz]

Hi, new here.

I have the opportunity to purchase a 737-400 TQ from a salvage yard.  It is great shape and everthing is there.  I want to motorize it completely, but can't find a good resource.  Not sure what to do.  I've had the real thing under my hand and don't want a plastic replica; maybe JetMax quad would be considered.  Not interested in the Revolution product - nice but too expensive IMO by about $3K,

Questions:

Where can I find a good resource to convert the quadrant myself?  I don't want to ship it off and it come back with a $10K invoice attached.  I keep hearing referneces to a mysterious Rob or Ron, but don't know how to find him.

Can the JetMax unit be motorized?

Advice?

Thanks,

Kevin

[jskibo]

PM XorionFE (Scott).  He's done the same....

[XOrionFE]

Hello Kevin,

Another Midwesterner!  Welcome.    I converted a real TQ following the mysterious Rob method :-)

It is not too difficult to do but it can be costly.  Not sure what you are able to get the one you saw for but I paid over 3k for mine which included a 3 bay pedestal.   Then I had to buy 3 string pots, 2 large motors for the handles, a small motor for the trim wheels, chain, large servo for spoiler handle and another small servo for the trim.   On top of that you need interface cards including a couple motor controller cards if using Phidgets or the new ne from Open Cockpits perhaps.  Then you need analog axis card for the 4 axis neede, and finally an input/outputs card and a 5 v power supply to the backlighting.   So maybe another $1000 in misc parts.   Finally you need a program to run it all.

In short, the real quad is awesome but gonna run you 3-4 k to complete plus your labor time.    Well worth it if you can.    But with that in mind Revolution seems like a good bargin and many are happy with it.  For them though you are going to pay a dollar to euro conversion along with a lot of shipping dollars.

Your best bet if not wanting to spend on the real one is to look at the TQ from Flightdeck Solutions.  Canadian dollar is almost the same as US and shipping would be much less.  Plus FDS is practically in your backyard.  Heck, you could drive up to Toronto and pick it up in person!    You can't go wrong with their products.

That said, if you end up getting your hands on a real TQ let us know and there are a few here that have done them.

Scott

[kattz]

Thanks, Scott.  My price on the TQ fresh from the salvage yard is $800 complete.  If I could do the rest for $1000, I'd be in like Flynn.  I can tear it down and clean it up without issues... Heck, I restored a F-4C fwd ejection seat from nothing, so I can probably do this!

Thanks - looking forward to asking for help!

Kevin

[XOrionFE]

Note it is very easy to get this working as a basic TQ with manual control of the levers, flaps, reversers, spoiler lever, switches, and parking brake.    Much harder to do the trim wheels, motorize the levers and spoiler and trim indicator.   You will need be ale to write code for that.   There is a program called DVATX that was written by a guy a while back but it only supports servo controlled levers not motorized ones like I did.  My TQ handles are manual for now.

Scott

[jskibo]

RevSim used the Opencockpits motor card in their throttles and program it using SIOC, but their motors certainly aren't as robust as Scott's,  and they don't have to move all the steel that's in the real throttle

[jackpilot]

I'm just rehashing the same song (old age probably) but if you like to fly an airplane as opposed to turning  knobs and dials and watching it fly itself, TQ motorization is not a necessity and close to an eyecandy gadget in a Sim.
Adusting power manually is fun and challenging ,
Taking over the AT at any point is a no brainer.

Could save you X000' and months, repeat months, of frustration.

IMHO
Jack

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I agree. Using A/T right from the start learning to fly these airplanes doesn't teach how to set power for various phases of flight. It also doesn't teach you how to anticipate a slight adjustment that might be needed if a trend is spotted. Well, for that matter even spotting or recognizing a trend.

Now, if all you want to do is run the automation and raise the gear, knock youurself out.

I think the days of the fine art of flying are over.

[Maurice]

I like to fly an airplane the way real planes are flown today by real pilots with the help of automation even though they all have 2 pilots sharing duties at the business end. Doing everything manually just does not make sense as you would never do this in real life if you were flying any kind of high performance passenger jet.

TQ motorization has really nothing to do with flying manually or not. It is simply nice to have and see much the same way that you both like to see real instruments instead of replicates, especially one inch gauges in the overhead, right Jack? 

Maurice

[Boeing Skunk Works]

Well, I think that's where the problem (or maybe misinformation) begins. No one here except Mike really knows how these airplanes are flown. Unless you've been through the 737 course and have hands-on experience line flying these airplanes pushing the button and commanding 'FLY NOW' is as good as any method I guess.

I'll try not to re-hash the experience and learning over the button-pushing and watching as a passenger too much.

In some airplanes though, there is no question about how they are flown since they have little if any automation. You will learn to hand fly these airplanes and learn to work the throttle or you will crash. It's very simple.

One need not ever crash in a 737NG. 

[MLeavy737]

Flying an airplane such as the 737 takes just as much skill on autopilot as it does hand flying.  Especially if you want it done gracefully.  Remember flying around in flight sim on autopilot as alot different than flying real world with real controllers. As im sure you all can tell in real world things planned rarely stay the same.  Especially in the descent and approach phase.  Bunch of hidden traps in that box that can have you heads down wondering wtf the airplane is doing

Saying you dont need autothrottles or automation cause its too easy is a bit misleading i believe.  I challenge anyone who says that to a sim session ! Lol

Mike L

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I didn't say it was too easy.

I think basic hand flying skills should be mastered in an aircraft of this type and complexity before the button pushing begins and the aircraft starts doing something you don't understand and are clueless as how to fix it.

"When I punch the approach button and the aircraft immediately starts a 750 fpm descent, why does it do that???"

Hmmmm, why indeed?

[jackpilot]

Flying an airplane such as the 737 takes just as much skill on autopilot as it does hand flying.  Saying you dont need autothrottles or automation cause its too easy is a bit misleading i believe.  Mike L

No question Mike, real world work load and responsibility are unmatched in a Sim.
This being said, in our sims SOPs are what we make them, we carry no souls, we do not have to save fuel or even be on time at the gate.

So before mimic'ing a full flight from A to B, (with a One man crew), seems to me that we should be able to handfly "ahead" of the aiplane doing uncontrolled circuits, approaches, slow flight, etc for the simple sake of building confidence, competence and "simulated" self esteem (lol).

Never said that automation was too easy, just saying that we are lucky to be allowed to do without it on certain phases of flight like take off, climb to cruise or descent and to enjoy and feel good about doing it succesfully ..in a sim! knowing that it is still far from reality.

[jskibo]

Jack, don't make me get rid of FADECs and add an FE panel now

I get all the decent planning and hand flying I need in the Mooney, and since it only has a wing leveler, I have to hand fly every phase.  Not a 737, but then again Mike gets the luxury of a relatively cloudless FL320, while I had to fly Salina to Muskegon on the panel 15 minutes after departure until breaking out (with ice accumulation) on approach to KMKG.  Five hours in the soup.

I get enough RW IFR time, don't need to sim it to show I can fly it . Nice to push the TOGA once in awhile and monitor the climb

[Maurice]

So before mimic'ing a full flight from A to B, (with a One man crew), seems to me that we should be able to handfly "ahead" of the aiplane doing uncontrolled circuits, approaches, slow flight, etc for the simple sake of building confidence, competence and "simulated" self esteem (lol).

I agree. During the many testing sessions trying to get the most out of FSX by tweaking everything I can tweak, I almost always do short flights without using any instrumentation at all because I can't be bothered loading all the software just to see if the frame rates are better or whether I get fewer stutters.

So I just take off and land back at the same airport with a blank MIP and no MCP. I am almost always able to have a successful decent landing by just remembering the various power settings and by how the airplane feels, in other words, no automation at all and not even a speed indicator. Try doing that if you really want to know whether you can fly the airplane or not (within FS limitations of course) 

But I never do that while on a 'real' flight with a 'real' destination. At that time, I want to feel like I really am at the controls of a sophisticated airliner and I use all the help that is available, especially to a single pilot.

Maurice

[jackpilot]

Hey Guys
This is Hi-jackin' Kevin's topic big time!
Assuming full responsibility!
Lets go back to TQs  after this interesting exchange.

[MLeavy737]

Of course,  i hear ya guys.. Autopilot should never take the place of some good hand flying skills for sure!  Just adding my 2cents on autopilot reality i was counting on someone taking me up on the challenge however lol.

As far as the TQ automation i can give NorthernFlightSim the credit for mine and i think its top notch.  Like others mentioned before, you still need the software to drive it "correctly" however. Whatever you do i suggest a dc type motor driven system with a slip clutch instead of direct servo driven. 

Mike L

[fsaviator]

Of course,  i hear ya guys.. Autopilot should never take the place of some good hand flying skills for sure!  Just adding my 2cents on autopilot reality i was counting on someone taking me up on the challenge however lol.
Mike L

I wouldn't take you up on it as I agree.  The one thing none of these sims can do for you (except maybe Sam's) is give you the feel in your seat, and trim.  I can hand fly my cherokee or my comanche all day long as I feel it in my seat, and I can trim it for feel.  As much as I love my sim, I can't truely trim it so hand flying for any length of time really isn't realistic.  There is a slight difference hand flying for three hours in a sim on the ground, and hand flying three hours in a plane that's up in the sky.  One feels like you've been sitting in your seat for three hours, and one can make you feel like you just went three hours with Mike Tyson

[kattz]

Northern flight sim can convert throttles.

When I contacted them they said $10K.  I don't think Household Six would approve...

[kattz]

I agree. Using A/T right from the start learning to fly these airplanes doesn't teach how to set power for various phases of flight. It also doesn't teach you how to anticipate a slight adjustment that might be needed if a trend is spotted. Well, for that matter even spotting or recognizing a trend.

Now, if all you want to do is run the automation and raise the gear, knock youurself out.

I think the days of the fine art of flying are over.

I can hand fly the sim all day depending on the aircraft.  I've got considerable RW yoke time in the Tomahawk (flying AMC Pacer), and lots of RW stick time in the F-4D, F-4E, F-111A, F-16B, -D, DG, and DJ, and about 300 hours of F-16A, C, and CG sim time in USAF simulators.  About 30 hours at altitude in USAF birds - not bad for a crewchief.  The one aircraft that stays on AP all of the time in my FSX collection is the MD-11 - a beast to fly.  My hat is off to the guys and gals that fly those in real life.

No, I can't afford a full-blown sim, but the eye candy on just the TQ would be nice.

Kev

[jackpilot]

Good for you Kev.
We all have our bias.
And the nicest part is sharing ideas

Great hobby
Jack

[blueskydriver]

Hi Kev,

Just curious why you're not doing an F16? Look up Simlady and see what she has got going...

Otherwise, get the real TQ for $800 no matter what and while you're at it, if they have another one for sale for that price, PM me!

John

[kattz]

Hi Kev,

Just curious why you're not doing an F16? Look up Simlady and see what she has got going...

Otherwise, get the real TQ for $800 no matter what and while you're at it, if they have another one for sale for that price, PM me!

John

Honestly, I flew Falcon4.0 with all of the mods and a Cougar system, MFD's etc, for about 6 years.  Tired of it.  BTW, the guy that was getting me the TQ emailed me tonight and raised his price to $1300.  So much for that one.

Kevin

[jskibo]

$1300 is still a good price......

[kattz]

It is when you can afford it.    Right now I can't drop that kind of $ in one shot.  The one in question is a rope-start -200.  He just emailed me and said he'd find me another one at a better price.

Kevin