1920X1080 short throw projector???

[jskibo]

Not completely spherical, but with a curve side to side and a gentle bow at the top and bottom.

[ivar hestnes]

Your question has been answered Jack 

HD projectors will not cure the pixelation, but it will make the pixels approximately 50% smaller, so it will certainly help.

[astron]

Hey Ivar, if i could reduce the pixel size by 50% i just might be happy with that.   i think the facts are that unless they come out with an incredibly high resolution,that you will never be able to completly eliminate the pixels.     i am running my 52" monitors at the same resolution as i was the projectors,which is 1280X1024      now if you sit back 6ft away from the monitors and fly,you see absolutly no pixels because they are so small,   if i walk up to the monitors and look at them from 6" away you can see the pixels small as they may be.

Now increase that image size to an 8ft wide by 5ft tall screen, and voila there are the pixels, its all starting to make more sense to me now.

Tom

[jskibo]

Building my home theater and using a Cinema Scope 130" 2.35 screen.  With a 1920 x 1080 Panasonic HD projector there's a bit of pixels at 10ft, but I can easily live with that given the immersion with that screen.

Now its not 22ft of linear wrap around viewing, but I'll bet we would still have pixels given the screen would be 6ft or so from the captains seat.  Even spreading that 22ft across 3 PJ's

[jackpilot]

Question for those who have a 1:1 shell:
Assuming a 6-8 feet distance from eyeview to screen what is the required height of the screen so that the front window is filled up vertically. ?

[astron]

Hey Jack, i think i see where you are headed here, as im having the same thoughts,now that i understand things a little better, if we could reduce the image size to just fill the window space,we would also reduce the pixel size, now i have one of petes shells assembled out in the shop its still being worked on,and my screens are in the house,so i cant really do alot of testing just yet but i can get an idea of measurements from out in front of the shell with a tape measure, im going to work a little more on that as soon as i can.

I guess then my question would be how small is to small, i mean we dont want to look out onto a runway that is 2ft across, now we also have some zoom factor to work with in fsx, i think Ivar would know more about this then anyone

Ivar im curious just to see if my screens are to big, what is the vertical height of your image onto the screens, that way i can figure out if im too big or to small, i know youre running curved screens and i am using flat screens,  the screens are 8ft wide,so i have filled them to that width and it gives me a 5ft tall image.

Tom

[jackpilot]

From my own one proj visual, with screen at 7feet distance from eye, I had a 5 feet vertical image filling all the window, when seated properly

The extra image (unseen from normal eye position)being placed  more down than up

If I leaned forward I still could see the runway, limited by the AC nose slope, (ie: full picture )
If looking up at MCP level I could see over the edge of the screen but usually you do not do that since the passing ( FL650)  Concorde retired!

Here is a quick and bad drawing of what I mean.

Bottom line, how small can the image be vertically so that we can lean forward , look down and see the runway or landscape, or sit normally and have a full vertical window.

[ivar hestnes]

Definitely interesting.

My screen is total of 2,4 meters tall, and the image is approx 1.8 meter, but I am also using the "curves" down to the floor so my image is basically 2.1 meters tall, except for in the projector joints. But the joints is in the "corners" of the sim, so I cant see the bottom of the screen there anyway. My radius is 2.35 meters. People have tried to increase the radius, but the pixelation would appear worse, so it makes sense to make the screen smaller. For the "immersion factor", I think my radius is pretty good. But for a smaller sim, like a cessna, 2.35 meters radius will result in a huge "floor view" when looking out the window, as the screen is so far from you.

When I sit in my 737, the pixelation is worst on the left side, as I am closest to the screen there. Looking to the right, the issue is a lot smaller of course.

Reducing the image size will also reduce the pixel size, but you will also get closer to the screen. Still I believe that it will appear better for your eyes. The tricky part is  where to place the projectors, as they have to come down also. Could get issues with the simulators roof. Some drawingwork to be done for sure.

It could be interesting to make a small doublecurved screen, and see if it would work.  The projectors have to be "angled" downwards, so doublecurved is a must I think. Not sure, but I would believe that a setup like CAE is using would be the ultimate. Make the projectors project the image to a small doublecurved screen on the top of the shell, and have a big screen that will reflect the image of the smaller. Tricky optical calculation to do though. But I do wonder how a setup like that will "handle" the pixelation. Maybe it will not be so obvious... No idea actually. But something is telling me that the pixels could become less obvious.

I think this is a very good discussion. Many different subjects coming up in this thread. And the idea of making a regular "large-pixel-beamer" setup, but at the same time remove the Lego feeling is very interesting. At the end of the day, it is optics, but hey, they were on the moon in the 60s with less datapower that matches my cats digital tag... lol, so we should be able to do something interesting here.




@Jack
I think a doublecurved screen would be your answer Jack. Your eyes might see the screen instead of the floor. Attaching a link here... Look at the image on the right side a few pixels down the page.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Collimated_light

[Maurice]

I think the front projection could definitely be much smaller since the front windows block out most of the view anyway. The main problem is with the left side window. You are very close to that window and therefore you see much more of the screen. So if you can live with not filling the side windows, you could indeed place the projectors closer to the screen. 

That would increase the image sharpness but unfortunately at the expense of total field of view since you also need a large horizontal projection for a full 180+ view. Still, this could be a very good compromise to increase the image sharpness and well worth investigating.

Maurice

[astron]

Yes you are right on the money about everything you just said Maurice,  i dont have my sim  finished yet but did stick the mip section in place and put the 737 seat where i think it should be,the closest i could come to the center screen if i stuck the nose of the shell against the wall,would give me an eye point distance of about 5ft, at this point i dont really know if that is to close or not, i think once we get everything in place in the house,we will just have to play around with it and see what we come up with, pretty much all guess work at this point

Tom

[jackpilot]

Distance and angle are major factors.
Has someone tested or figured out a 180 setup using mirrors and/or backscreen projection?

[Nat Crea]

Has someone tested or figured out a 180 setup using mirrors and/or backscreen projection?

I think you should be the first Jack? 

Nat

[jackpilot]

Not now.. , I have a new DSTD to build. Like some others I Know!   
So far I agree with Scott on the visual issue.

But after all, pro sims are full of mirrors!
I found in my "archives" an old concept which could be interesting, assuming the screen is set a bit further from the windshield and the reflected image path  is in fact wider than shown

[Maurice]

Not sure where you are going with that Jack. What is the problem you are trying to solve? In my opinion, introducing 2 more variables like mirrors and rear projection screen makes things much more complicated and unless you have no room for regular projection, I wouldn't even think of trying that since there is really nothing to gain except space perhaps. But that's me 

Maurice

[astron]

Hey Guys, well i decided to do some research this morning,as i couldnt get this projector business out of my head.   since at present there is nothing in front of my sim screens,i decided to grab one of my benq mp780st projectors and stick it in front of the center screen.

First thing i wanted to check ,would it look as good as my 52 monitor set at the same width and resolution,and the answer is yes it does,well alsmost as good,my screen wall isnt quite profeesional grade but pretty nice.  So the next thing i thought,was ok go and measure the length across the front of the simulator nose,it comes out at about 68".     Now back downstairs,pull the projector back to 68",  does it look good , why yes it does,about a 100% better, then at 8ft across, you would really have to look for the pixels to see them,and amazing difference.

So i parked my chair back at 5ft, which is exactly the same distance,as my eyepoint would be with the sim shoved right up against the screen wall, does it look good yes it looks fabulous, and i also had no eye strain looking at it for a long period of time,actualy it seems easier on my eyes then being back further.

Ok so with the image at 68" wide that put the vertical image at about 42".   so back into the sim,  with my helper holding a tape measurer up against the nose,straight up,i was able to view about 31" of screen,so good there, off to the right,about 34" there,   Now out to the left 41" basicaly the vertical height of the screen, Now my left screen wall is also flat it comes off the center screen wall at 60 degrees,   so the 68 inches of that image actualy end back about 5" into the back side window which is great,    if i turn my head left 90 degrees i am looking right into the center post between the 2 side windows, i really dont think i need to turn my head any further than that unless you want a neck ache.   i going to black out both side rear windows anyway i personly dont see much value in them.

So anyway my eyepoint out to the left screen 4ft is closest, anyway, once we can get the sim into the house and set it up ,we can do a little further testing to see how it comes out,but so far things are looking up.

It was quite amazing at what taking  2 ft off the width of the image could do, i personaly think its quite workable now,if all goes well setting the sim up.


Tom

[Maurice]

That's great info & great news Tom. I'm just wondering though if the shell might get in the way of the projection surfaces that you can actually see. You may want to try & place one projector in position and see if there is any interference.

Thanks,
Maurice

[astron]

Hey Maurice, i dont know for sure yet,it may be a little while before i can get the sim down into the basemant,  but the good news is that the projectors have to be moved closer to the screen walls away from the simulator,so im hoping were good there i think we will be. and its hard to say how everything will look to you,when its up and running.    And to be honest with you i think there is probably a little more room left to increase the screen size before it starts to get real bad,we will let you know when we get there.

Tom

[Maurice]

Great, please keep us updated.

Thanks,
Maurice

[jackpilot]

Not sure where you are going with that Jack. What is the problem you are trying to solve? In my opinion, introducing 2 more variables like mirrors and rear projection screen makes things much more complicated and unless you have no room for regular projection, I wouldn't even think of trying that since there is really nothing to gain except space perhaps. But that's me 

Maurice

Was just a thought.

Might help on two fronts
1) no need for super short throw, which means more resolution available at a decent price
2) no more problem with the shell shadow, less keystone, better sharpness...

Just a thought!

[Maurice]

Was just a thought.

Might help on two fronts
1) no need for super short throw, which means more resolution available at a decent price
2) no more problem with the shell shadow, less keystone, better sharpness...

Just a thought!

I think the price of rear projection screens at that size would probably make the projector savings less attractive, but that's just a guess.

Maurice

[Nat Crea]

I was starting to think maybe my eyes are gone, but I flew last night and I was honestly
happy with my image. Like I said if you look for pixels you will find them, but until HD ST's
come out I'll survive.

My image size is 6.5ft tall and 26 ft wide if that helps.
I know things look better in little pics but heres one early shot...
If you guys werent on the wrong side of the world Id invite you all over!

Nat

Click on the pic:

[Maurice]

Like I said if you look for pixels you will find them, but until HD ST's
come out I'll survive.

Nat

Click on the pic:

I don't know about that...I may just shoot myself  . Of course this is nice from a distance but from the cockpit...not so nice.

However, I finally got to do a few 'serious' short flights as opposed to sightseeing flights and I was so busy, I barely looked outside so the pixels were not even in my consciousness.

Moral of the story, do flights of max 1.5 hours and the scenery will not be an issue anymore. That's what I was always planning to do anyway as I cannot stand the boredom of long flights. So all & all, this is still pretty amazing. I had really forgotten where I was just a couple of years ago, so no more whining from me about the visuals

Maurice

[Sean]

My image size is 6.5ft tall and 26 ft wide if that helps.
I know things look better in little pics but heres one early shot...
If you guys werent on the wrong side of the world Id invite you all over!

Nat

Ah, so it was your setup I saw in another thread.

Nat, do you have a website or somewhere I can see more pictures of your setup. I'm particularly interested in your screen and visual setup.

Cheers.

Sean

[Nat Crea]

Hey Sean,

I havent taken many pics this year, but theres a nice thread on my WideView visuals,
including progress pics from last year at FDS:

http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=4209

I dont own a TH2Go anymore, so the guys here are more help if you go that way...
but if its Wideview your after,  Ill do my best... 

Nat

[XOrionFE]

If you guys werent on the wrong side of the world Id invite you all over!

Nat

We're on the wrong side of the world?!!!!   Hmmmmm....I think its the other way around Nat! 

Scott