Okay guys- Here's what I'd like to call Thread #3 for this type of visual system. The original 2 threads started by others are here:
Part 1: http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=882.msg6864#msg6864
Part 2: http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=881.msg9274#msg9274
Now on to part 3.
Visuals is something that we are constantly discussing and over the years we've grown by leaps and bounds in this area. More and more builders are able to do a nice 180 deg+ system over curved or paneled screens and they are looking fantastic. The immersion factor is incredible and the current price for such a system is hovering around $4000.00 US. My "hover" price is considering a) 3 Projectors @ no less than $1k each ($3k) + b) TripleHead2Go @ $300.00 or slightly less and c) Nthusim @ $500 or so and then screen materials.
What we are now seeing is that since Christmas, the prices on HDTVs have began to drop like rocks. I suspected the prices would go back up after the holiday season but judging by all the Tiger Direct and Newegg adds I get twice a week or more, this is not the case. The large sets are staying priced low for the time. World-Wide Economy anybody?
Even with the incredible, seamless wrap around systems popping up more and more like Ivar's, Maurice's, Scott, and others we see more builders and vendors going with large HDTVs set up and naturally there are pro's and con's to each method. An area of confusion for me (and Im sure others interested in this type of setup for whatever reason) is how connectivity plays into how useful an HDTV is for a flight simulator visual system.
1) Typical Inputs are listed as PC D-sub, HDMI, Composit.
Q) Which one is best for getting FS from the PC to the HDTV? PC or HDMI?
Q) Can you even consider any other method to get FS from the PC to the set?
Q) What's up with DVI? Has it gone the way of the Dodo now?
2) I see that per the Matrox website, HDMI resolutions are listed per their table to be less than the VGA resolutions. (cannot seem to find this on their document for TH2Go for some reason now)
Q) Is this an error, or am I missing something here?
3) Per most guides I've read, there's not a big difference between 720p and 1080i for sets at 50" or less.
Q) Does this apply to TV/DVD only, or is it applicable to running FS also?
4) I know the Pro's and Cons of Plasma vs. LCD vs. LED-LCD. What about DLP?
Essentially, I would like to have some info put forth here to point out the desireable features for an HDTV that is deemed suitable for FS.
For those that know, thank you for your input. For those that are just as curious as myself, well hopefully we can all learn something here.
Eric,
I don't have the answers you are looking for except one general answer perhaps. No matter what TV you choose (LCD or Plasma), what resolution or what interface it has, one thing I can say for sure is that the image quality will be a quantum better than any wide throw DLP projector and probably LCD projector as well although I have no experience with LCD projectors.
Yes, the wraparound effect with a huge semicircular screen is very nice, but it comes with a big price in my opinion. And the price is image clarity. Looks fairly good from a distance, but as you get closer, not so good. And you have to position yourself fairly close to have the screen wrap around the cockpit.
When you are airborne, the clarity is not much of an issue and things look quite beautiful with FSX particularly, but on the ground, close to buildings and runway signs, I am quite disappointed with the very poor sharpness of the image. Some runway markings are impossible to read until you get very close to them and then they look OK.
Knowing what I know now and having seen both setups, I can't really say for sure which one I would choose if I were to do it again. Or maybe I can...I want a CAE visual system ;D).
Having said that, if you do go a for a TV of some sort, do pick the best one you can afford and don't worry about 720p or 1080i or 1080p. I have a 52" LCD TV and it is capable of 1080p with a blue ray player, but normal HD programs are only 1080i and frankly, I cannot tell the difference between 1080i and a 1080p blue ray program. I'm sure some people can but I can't. The normal HD clarity is outstanding and I would love even half that clarity from my projectors.
Anyway, those are my 2 cents on that matter and I'm sure some will disagree. But I am completely honest when I say that I am quite disappointed with the clarity of the image from my projectors. As I said in an earlier post, I am likely becoming more & more spoiled & nitpicking than I should be, but the facts are the facts. Current TVs will beat current projector's image quality by a mile. There is just no comparison.
For me, the semi-ideal system if I could afford to start all over again (aside from CAE stuff of course) would be five 60" LCD TVs with 5 FSX computers and Wideview. But don't get me wrong though...I'm pretty sure I can live with my current system as is since it is so much more than I could even dream of a few short years ago. There is no escaping human nature...you always want something better/more than what you have no matter how much you deny it to yourself or to others ;D. That's why men have landed on the moon and probably on Mars & further later :)
Now, aren't you even more confused about your choices? ;D
Maurice
Not sure I would say 720p or 1080p doesn't make a difference. With a 720p you save a few (very few these days) $$$, but limit your screen to 1366 x 768 per screen. I used several 50" Panasonic 1080p plasmas as my monitor over the past 3 years and have used older 32" 720p's in the past. I wouldn't want to go back to a 720p resolution for flying. Just my 2 Kopecks though
Quote from: jskibo on January 27, 2011, 05:39:13 AM
Not sure I would say 720p or 1080p doesn't make a difference. With a 720p you save a few (very few these days) $$$, but limit your screen to 1366 x 768 per screen. I used several 50" Panasonic 1080p plasmas as my monitor over the past 3 years and have used older 32" 720p's in the past. I wouldn't want to go back to a 720p resolution for flying. Just my 2 Kopecks though
I would still bet your older 720p monitors were a LOT better than my projectors. In fact, I think even old VGA monitors are better. But that's me :).
Kopecks you say...what country is that?
Maurice
And one more thing about monitors. Anyone who has seen Angus's setup with older CRT monitors would attest that the resolution & clarity is IMMENSELY better than any projector.
Maurice
Quote from: maurice on January 27, 2011, 06:09:38 AM
I would still bet your older 720p monitors were a LOT better than my projectors. In fact, I think even old VGA monitors are better. But that's me :).
Kopecks you say...what country is that?
Maurice
1366 x 768 is just too blocky for me in screen sizes above 19". At 50", to me, it looks horrible (Super Mario-like).
Kopecks = Russia :)
I have to say that I totally agree with Maurice and his conclusions. I think the ideal setup woud be 5 60" TVs but I would prefer not to use wideview but to be able to run them with one computer and adjust views similiar to what we are doing with projection. Maurice is correct that you lose tons of clarity and resolution with projection and if you look at early posts by me you can see where I really was second guessing my choice with projection. I still second guess it because I fear the difficulties in pulling down a projector if something goes wrong, warrantie replacements, finding the same model in the future if something goes south, moving.....and the list goes on. Projection is not an easy setup by any means and has a lot of negatives.
The main positive of course is immersion. I dont think you could even come close to the immersion you get with a wrap around projectiion system by using monitors. No contest there. Even with 5 60 inch monitors it just wouldnt be the same (unless the were totally bezelless maybe....and just maybe. Would have to see it...).
Scott
Thanks to all so far. This is good dialogue. Again, I want to focus more on which kind of interface is best for getting our precious high res FS from the PC to the HDTV. I dont really understand HDMI (although I have an AWESOME 42" Panasonic Plasma screen TV with these kind of inputs that I'd love to try FS on for an experiment) and would like to know if we can use a convertor to get the FS signal from a DVI output to the HDMI input somehow, or if there's a better way. Also, a HUGE point here, is that several of these great HDTV displays show that they have PC inputs, but some dont. That is where the issue lies for me right now. If there is no PC input on the HDTV, then what's the best way to get it in there and retain the image quality?
Thanks again for all the good discussion. As you can tell, this is one horse I will beat to death and the main reasons are 1) They are now cheaper, 2) The definition and clarity are to die for, 3) The size fits what I have when combining a small business area with the sim too :-)
I'd like to chime in with my two Drachma's worth. I too have toyed with the dilemma of projectors over HDTV's but now having the luxury of access to a 210 degree 3 projector setup I certainly agree the immersion factor is enormous. Clarity is lost but with the right screen material and covering you can sharpen it to some degree. Most punters flying in it are so blown away by its size and perspective that the increased pixelation isn't noticed, however they aren't discerning simmers always trying to eek out that extra frame rate or screen clarity.
So, for my home sim I am definitely going down the track of 60" HDTV's. After using piddly 22" LCD's for the past few years and comparing the clarity against the projectors, I am willing to lose that full wrap around view and cope with the larger bezel size in order to be able to read the runway taxi signs! As for whether I use 3 or 5 thats yet to be decided. I'm also not too keen to add more PC's and configure wideview so might just use 3 until systems and video cards are able to cope with 5 hanging off one PC.
As for connections go for HDMI. Full HD support and much more reliable on longer runs (if that's an issue). And Eric you just need a DVI to HDMI adapter to get your PC into your TV. These TV's are just glorified computer monitors after all, no difference. I plug my laptop (which has a HDMI out) into my 42" LCD TV and it automatically configures for full HD (1920x 1080). I have also run Falcon4 on this TV and its awesome!
Cheers,
Ken.
With respect to the "PC" connection found on some of these, be careful using the VGA input (PC input) as I have used panels in the past that limited the resolution available via VGA.
For HDMI to DVI, head on over to monoprice.com and grab a cheap cable there.
To add to this....and I am sure Bob can chime in is that HDMI is no better than DVI or VGA. It is just a different interface because HDMI carries Audio as well as Video. The video signal is still the video signal. I run DVI out to the TH2GO then from that I use DVI to HDMI cables going to my projectors. My projectors dont have DVI inputs, only VGA and HDMI. I tried with VGA as well just to test and there is absolutely no difference in resolution, clarity, or anything. So IMHO and based on what I know...just get the appropriate adapter and dont get wrapped up in the particular input type.
Scott
Quote from: Kennair on January 27, 2011, 07:03:02 AM
however they aren't discerning simmers always trying to eek out that extra frame rate or screen clarity.
I would disagree with the 'discerning simmers' part. I think we are more like ridiculously spoiled brats ;D
Maurice
Quote from: XOrionFE on January 27, 2011, 07:51:55 AM
To add to this....and I am sure Bob can chime in is that HDMI is no better than DVI or VGA. It is just a different interface because HDMI carries Audio as well as Video. The video signal is still the video signal. I run DVI out to the TH2GO then from that I use DVI to HDMI cables going to my projectors. My projectors dont have DVI inputs, only VGA and HDMI. I tried with VGA as well just to test and there is absolutely no difference in resolution, clarity, or anything. So IMHO and based on what I know...just get the appropriate adapter and dont get wrapped up in the particular input type.
Scott
Well with these setups you wouldn't likely see any difference, but if you went over to AVSForum they would have a hissy over that statement. :)
DVI / HDMI / Display Port is Digital to Digital, no conversion. VGA is not a digital signal.....some claim a softer less clear picture
That may be true John but I also read that digital is limited on frequency response. Anyway....I am certainly no expert. All I can say is that I have tried both and to my 43 year old eyes....I could see absolutely no difference so to me that is the best truth.....to me.
You also have to remember that there is nothing digital about running FSX is there? Not like it is a blueray movie or something. Probably makes a much bigger difference to a home theatre person than a flight simmer.
Scott
Again, THANKS a million. We are getting down to brass tacks now and it's more helpful than you know. All of this info has got me going red-hot to get some large HDTVs as I just really think that for me this is going to be about the best way to go for so many reasons. Besides, Ron (a fellow LJ45 builder 1.5 hours down the road) already has a full wrap around view in the plans, so variety may be a good thing here. Now that I know I can simply plug that convertor cable into my 42" plasma, Im about to order a cable to see it for myself.
Please feel free to keep this going.
Of course the other thing to consider (particularly if there's a "significant other" involved) is space. You need quite a bit of realestate around your sim to get the best out of a 3 projector setup but less if you use TV's. Also you can happily fly in broad daylight, no need for a darkened room. Both are a major plus for me as I tend to feel like a mushroom on long flights. :laugh:
Ken.
Hey Ken
Yeah, thankfully I have a building dedicated to the sim but since the building is not the size of a warehouse, then I still have a space issue (17'x17') as I have to have it also for my small business too. HDTVs are the best solution for me considering space. I think that it's very interesting to see so many folks say that, knowing all the work and worry involved, the only reason they would choose projection over HDTV is the 'immersion'. That tells you that the HDTV method is a very serious contender now that the size is available (large) along with the fact that the only con I can trul think of is the bezels.
Only cons I can think of are Power draw (Plasma vs. PJ???), building a sturdy stand (so one of my 6 kids don't knock a 50" to the floor), and in the case of LCD's and a TH2GO, finding a panel that runs at 59Hz if you intend on the 5040 x 1050 sizing
Quote from: ETomlin on January 28, 2011, 08:58:54 AM
I think that it's very interesting to see so many folks say that, knowing all the work and worry involved, the only reason they would choose projection over HDTV is the 'immersion'. That tells you that the HDTV method is a very serious contender now that the size is available (large) along with the fact that the only con I can trul think of is the bezels.
I don't think 'immersion' is quite the right criteria here. Three large monitors would be very 'immersive' as well and the only thing missing is a full left or right view.
As far as the bezels are concerned, unless you have edge blending, you also have 'mini bezels' with projectors with the black line between views and so you are still aware that there are different views as opposed to one seamless view. The bezel problem in my opinion is over stated and your mind will ignore it very quickly.
And one more reason not to worry about bezels is the fact that FSX and probably FS9 as well do not display the scenery with exactly the same colours in the different views. This showed up very strongly when I started a flight at dusk. The center image had a much different colour balance than the side images. I was sure that was problem with the center projector but it wasn't. I proved it by starting the same flight with only one view zoomed out and the colour balance was pretty much the same on the 3 projectors.
I also switched the center view with left view and the colour balance followed the view so the projector was definitely not causing the balance shift.
I am pretty sure you would have the same issue with LCD or plasma screens, but in that case, the bezels would really be a plus rather than a minus since the colour shift should be much less obvious than on a big screen with no separation between the views.
Bottom line, there is no perfect system, so pick the one that makes the most sense for you and I'm sure you will be quite happy with it.
Maurice
Maurice
I would love to sit in the FDS one or another one with 3 60" TVs just to see how it is and feels. I have only had 3 22" lcds before. Hopefully someone will build something like this close to me so I can check it out. And of course, if anyone wants to see the projection and can make it to Chicago area my door is open.
Maybe I will shoot some video tonight or tommorrow now that the mip is in. :-)
Scott
Scott,
If you do, would love to see a night approach at either KORD or KLGB :)
Ok, i can try that
Good screen example:
http://www.youtube.com/user/AngusWighton#p/u/3/392TVEN0zzs
Quote from: Ricardo Carvalho on January 28, 2011, 11:33:14 AM
Good screen example:
http://www.youtube.com/user/AngusWighton#p/u/3/392TVEN0zzs
I was going to say this looks very much like Angus' setup until I heard his voice and indeed, it is his sim. He does have Wideview though with 5 PCs & full wraparound views and last I saw him, he was still using VGA monitors with fantastic resolution (hard to see that in the video).
Angus is a professional corporate pilot and watching fly his sim is a real joy. No autoland for him and when he follows the glideslope, there is barely any motion on the yokes or elevator. He trims it so perfectly that it looks like an autopilot landing every time. It's a marvel I tell you.
Maurice
Yep. That's a classic example of how a generic sim can be terrific still. Also, EVERYONE that's been in a multi view sim like this (that I know) have repeatedly told me that your brain ignors the bezels and I still would question that, but then I finally realized I was so fixated on them performing the approach that for just a moment I started to ignor it too :-)
Angus is a great guy. I met him last summer at the FDS Open House and he gave some great pointers on preparing for takeoff and approach briefings. Also a great presentation about his sim and how he uses it to help young pilots get going. It would be nice to see him over here on Cockpitbuilders. If anyone has his email perhaps send him an invite!
Scott
Quote from: ETomlin on January 28, 2011, 12:15:20 PM
Yep. That's a classic example of how a generic sim can be terrific still.
It's not generic...it's strictly a 737 with a few 'liberties' like the throttle which is home made :)
Maurice
Angus is already a member here ..... he's posted in the past.
Maurice, apparently he's waiting on a 777 style throttle from FDS right now.
Eric, I can assure you that the bezel will "disappear" as you are flying. Considering that Angus is using CRT's instead of LCD, and CRT's have a slightly bigger bezel, I was not in the least bothered or even noticed the bezel when I flew his cockpit. By the way, this has been a very interesting thread as I also will have to resort to using HDTV's instead of projectors due to space. Thanks for starting it.
Regards,
Henry
Have to admit that I am using a single 43" plasma atm and the visuals are pretty amazing as they are... I decided that because of space I would have to use monitors rather than projectors.
Then today I read about the fact that they are working on glasses free 3D monitors. They are not there yet but the TV's lock onto a single users eyes and create the 3D effect. If they manage to make them work for 2 users it will make cockpit building that much easier.
Progress on video tech has lept ahead with definitions higher than 1080P definitely on the way... I just wonder what it will be like in another 10 years. One thing is for sure... by the time you finish your cockpit it will already be out of date, visuals wise. :-\
Quote from: NeoMorph on January 28, 2011, 02:44:06 PM
Have to admit that I am using a single 43" plasma atm and the visuals are pretty amazing as they are... I decided that because of space I would have to use monitors rather than projectors.
So, I finally made one more step closer to deciding that I may just go with HDTVs for visuals vs. the projectors (the point of this whole thread series). What was it? Like Neo said above, I got a chance to connect my FS PC up to our 42" Panasonic plasma screen and MAN o' MAN how incredible that looked. I can now see why everyone loves the graphics of FSX. Ive been using it mainly on my sim's projector system and it looks not so great, but on the 42" plasma, the details were incredible. Still not a huge fan of FSX, but can definately see how great it looks on these high def screens. Here's the great part (and I know you guys think Im crazy) but FS9 with REX, Ground Enviro, Ultimate Terr., the Russian bloom effect, etc. looked incredibly better than on my ancient projectors. As Maurice said earlier, with today's tech. there's no way that any projector can match the detail of an HDTV and I see how that's so now. Anyhow, Rant OFF, but I do have a question:
I connected an HDMI cable that has a DVI input from my DVI video card output to the HDMI input on the TV. I then selected 1280x720 on the video card settings and made sure that the format on the TV was set to FULL. However, the desktop or anything else was always cut off on all 4 sides of the screen, meaning the Windows Start button, along with any folders or menue bar was partially cutoff/hidden. Now, I do not have a VGA input into this TV, only HDMI and component. A friend has the same TV as I but it's a 1080p version (mine's 720) and his has a VGA input. He had the same problem until he perused the "PC Adjust" function that I dont have.
So- Is it imperitive to purchase a screen with the VGA input to avoid this issue with part of the screen hidden at the edges? Im hoping that any input from those that know will help others that are contemplating the same thing for their visuals.
Quote from: ETomlin on February 14, 2011, 04:43:51 AM
Quote from: NeoMorph on January 28, 2011, 02:44:06 PM
Have to admit that I am using a single 43" plasma atm and the visuals are pretty amazing as they are... I decided that because of space I would have to use monitors rather than projectors.
So, I finally made one more step closer to deciding that I may just go with HDTVs for visuals vs. the projectors (the point of this whole thread series). What was it? Like Neo said above, I got a chance to connect my FS PC up to our 42" Panasonic plasma screen and MAN o' MAN how incredible that looked. I can now see why everyone loves the graphics of FSX. Ive been using it mainly on my sim's projector system and it looks not so great, but on the 42" plasma, the details were incredible. Still not a huge fan of FSX, but can definately see how great it looks on these high def screens. Here's the great part (and I know you guys think Im crazy) but FS9 with REX, Ground Enviro, Ultimate Terr., the Russian bloom effect, etc. looked incredibly better than on my ancient projectors. As Maurice said earlier, with today's tech. there's no way that any projector can match the detail of an HDTV and I see how that's so now. Anyhow, Rant OFF, but I do have a question:
I connected an HDMI cable that has a DVI input from my DVI video card output to the HDMI input on the TV. I then selected 1280x720 on the video card settings and made sure that the format on the TV was set to FULL. However, the desktop or anything else was always cut off on all 4 sides of the screen, meaning the Windows Start button, along with any folders or menue bar was partially cutoff/hidden. Now, I do not have a VGA input into this TV, only HDMI and component. A friend has the same TV as I but it's a 1080p version (mine's 720) and his has a VGA input. He had the same problem until he perused the "PC Adjust" function that I dont have.
So- Is it imperitive to purchase a screen with the VGA input to avoid this issue with part of the screen hidden at the edges? Im hoping that any input from those that know will help others that are contemplating the same thing for their visuals.
Just keep changing picture format on your remote until you find one that fits, my samsung hdtv needed to use the adapted mode to solve that.
Quote from: Ricardo Carvalho on February 14, 2011, 05:27:40 AM
Just keep changing picture format on your remote until you find one that fits, my samsung hdtv needed to use the adapted mode to solve that.
I was just going to tell Eric the same thing. My remote has a button to stretch or zoom the picture to fit the screen, so that may be your answer as well Eric.
Maurice
Richard, if you have an nVidia graphics card you can shrink/stretch the image to fix the screen. Open the nVidia Control Panel and under Display there is an entry called "Adjust Desktop Size and Position". That should fix your problem straight away.
Hey, thanks guys. Actually, I cycled thru the Format button and none of them work to fit the entire desktop on the screen. However, I do have an Nvidia 9800GT and although I didnt see the adjustment that Neo suggested, I will go back and look again as I cannot see how it doesnt have that option since it's just a new card (well- two years ago.)
I did read after posting this morning that it could be an issue due to the card having DVI out and then running into the HDMI convertor, and that others had this same issue vs. running into a VGA/PC input or straight HDMI. Since my card doesnt have a HDMI output and the TV has no VGA/PC input, then if the desktop stretching via the card's software doesnt work, I know for certain to look for TVs that have a PC input just to be safe.
Eric
I've been using NVIDIA cards and tv displays for several years now. With the exception of a 32" that was vga, i had to adjust desktop size on all (40" lcds and several 50" plasmas) was fairly easy, just drag and align the corners using the NVIDIA control panel. DVI to HDMI hasn't been an issue except wake from sleep on one Panasonic panel.
Thanks John. I will connect it up again and take another look.
I'm running straight HDMI from my GTX460... Maybe that's it.
OK, went onto my Flight Sim PC that outputting to my Pioneer plasma screen and two LCD's via analogue and got this...
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi277.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fkk52%2FNeoMorphUK%2FFlight%2520Simulator%2520Cockpit%2520Project%2FAdustDesktop2.jpg&hash=81ac096826f2fddfd82fe01cf01fe6f2f242d4f2)
Notice it has "Resize Desktop"... Now look it it on another machine that is outputting via a DVI to an LCD...
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi277.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fkk52%2FNeoMorphUK%2FFlight%2520Simulator%2520Cockpit%2520Project%2FAdustDesktop.jpg&hash=fbf7b8878729b70433e33f3a6f19995c93471315)
... and now all you can do is move the desktop about but not resize it.
Hmmmm.... ???
Hey Eric, you will get it all figured out, not sure if you were using fs9 or fsx for your tests with the tv set,but dont forget there is also a setting in the fsx cfg file called (wide aspect) it must = true not sure if that has anything to do with your situation. but anyway like i told you on the phone the other day, i think the 3 60" sets will work just fine for you beings as you are using them with the lear,like i told you the only reason im getting projectors for the new 737 sim is the airplane is much bigger and the big monitors i have just wont do the job for that airplane,im sure i will be somewhat disappointed when we first set it up as compared to the 3 52 lcd monitors we are using now, but the immersion factor will be huge. and also there are some other settings in fsx itself that can bring out better clarity you just have to play with them a little bit. but when we get the lear pit done i will use the 3 52 monitors for that cockpit. you were asking me about the angle of the monitors, its not so much a certain angle that you set them at, you really want each monitor to be the same distance away from your eyepoint,this way they will all look the same to you.
anyway good luck with your endeavor,Tom