Navigation Help

[Joe Lavery]

 A question for you knowledgable 737 jockeys, in particular those using PM.

I was flying with a friend last evening (incidentaly he's a Lear captain) and we input a route to Frankfurt using Vroute with charts and plates from Navigraph. The rest of this are questions I coud not answer, so I thought I throw them to the forum.

We were using ILS runway 25L and my friend commented that there is no DME associated with this ILS, so he said he would normally use the NDB on the field which in this case is 119.5 FRD. However there doesn't seem to be any way to assign this to the NAV1 radio, (I don't think) without losing the ILS of course. So I suggested setting NAV2 to FRD which will work but he said it would be normal practice for the first officer to monitor the ILS on his instruments so Setting NAV2 in this way would be incorrect.

Please remember these are not my words and all this may be due to my limited knowledge of the 737, or PM systems, but if anyone can correct me or suggest a solution I wold be grateful.

Cheers
Joe.

[dharrison]

My IFR is rusty but... Most if not all NDB's are out of commission or were being taken out of commission in the US, Europe is a different story. Many modern airliners don't even have ADF's installed. That said, common practice would be to program the waypoints of the ILS into the CDU and track DME that way. In this case the the OM is 5NM from FRD. You add FF as a waypoint in the legs page or you can create a radial/distance waypoint from FRD with 063 as the radial and 05DME as the distance. It's figuired off of the back course of the inbound course of 249.

I see however, no reason you could not use the Nav2 to identify the OM. then switch it as soon as possible to the primary ILS freq.  Excerpt from my ops manual that I got from MC.org that is from a US airline. Probably mostly airline procedure stardardized and each does it different.

"The VHF NAV unit on the same side as A/P in use or side with the illuminated
Master (MA) light, must be tuned to the primary approach facility. The
remaining NAV unit may be used for determination of intersections and
continued enroute navigation when necessary. Both units should be tuned to the
primary approach facility as soon as conditions permit."

Mike? How would CO handle an approach like this?

Don

[saabpilot]

This is what we did in SAS (Scandinavian Airlines), much the same as Don:s answer,

On Final Approach:
NAV 1 on the ILS
NAV 2 on the ILS
ADF 2 on the Outer Locator NDB     ((or when 2 NDB:s in the procedure #1 on OL and #2 on IL))

If there are navaids in the go around procedure you set those as Standby on respective NAV / ADF
On the ND (NAV2) or RMI PNF (Pilot non flying) check for the needle to turn and the altitude over OM/OL to be as published, then call out "OM/OL xxxx feet".

An ILS without associated DME is very common in the world, and the procedures are valid without one.
As said the approach NDB:s are getting more sparse now even in EU and when decommissioned the related ILS will be upgraded with an DME.
Usually you will also have a Marker beacon associated with OM

You have mixed up NDB and ILS frequencies.   
119.5 is not an NDB frequency. 

FRD 115.9 in Frankfurt is an DME only which you set on NAV2 and use for DME readings until passed D 5.1 when you need both NAV on the ILS freq. 110.95
As Standby You set 114.2 FFM on Nav1 and 2 (for a possible go-around)
Regarding the ADF - you should set them on freq. 382 FW
and monitor until crossing. (= D 5.1 and OM)

PM have dual ADF:s - if you do not have "hardware" you can also set their freq. in the CDU radio page.

Best,
Bjorn

[Joe Lavery]

Thanks very much both, you have answered my question in great detail. I will pass the information on to my friend, who incidentally was also my instructor many years ago when I took my PPL.

Bjorn, thanks for pointing out my mix up with the NDB - ILS frequencies, It's a wonder I arrive anywhere I set out for  , which is why my old instructor is sitting in for a few navigation lessons with me. Happily he's enjoying the different experience in the 737, when compared to the aircraft he normally flies.

Thanks once again, Bjorn and Don, I appreciate you taking the time.

Best Regards
Joe.