VATSIM and Cockpit Builders second thoughts?

[blueskydriver]

First, this is not a bash VATSIM (vas) post at all, instead it is a serious topic about my second thoughts, as well as others, on the subject. The major issue that I see is vas has not changed in the sense of communication amongst non-ATC controlled areas. This morning I see nearly 350 pilots on vas and thats because of the time of day, 0400 CST. Yet, there are only 19 controllers; both controller and pilot counts are worldwide.

Therefore, unless you're in one of the ATC areas, you sit in the cockpit in silence; although, you can look on the TCAS and see other pilots around you. You're supposed to use vas unicom 122.80 for TEXT messages primary and secondary voice, but it's against the vas to really use voice on the unicom freq because the way servers around the world work. Sadly, has anyone tried typing on unicom while flying into an airport inside a home cockpit? It is plain silly!

Second, if there is something new and we're just unaware, there has to be a better way to do this. On Gamespy, it had this ability to use different freq in the same session, so unicom was used for voice and airport freq were used for ATC voice. You could have a private freq to voice chat also. And, text chat was there all along. Thus, why is vas still behind this method? Texting is for cell phones, but communication via voice is for pilots. Yes, texting is a part of aircraft design these days, but in regards to simulation texting is better for desktop flyers...

Third, as I said this is not a bash thread because the vas does have benefits. Look at World Flight and other events on that level, when most, if not all the vas members are logged in, there will be voice communication everywhere. However, the events are not everyday and that leaves the uneventful days to be slow and silent. Again, we hope someone here knows something that we do not, and that is, is there another way to do unicom on vas? Knowingly, there is private channel, but how is it done effectively through squawkbox?

Fourth, back to Gamespy, has anyone flown in the FS-MP or Boston Virtual ATC (BVA) sessions? BVA has a program like a vas program you download to help with flight plans and ATC, as well as FS-MP has ways of doing things better without additional software. The point is that vas would be nice if it worked like these Gamespy sessions. So, why are we not just flying in Gamespy? That is because the 3 projector setups do not stay the same as it does in single player. You know, the .FLT files we all work so hard at getting right, well on Gamespy you get 3 views of all facing forward. You cannot log into a session and then load a saved .FLT either. It reverts to whatever the host has in their settings; unless, someone here knows a work around?

That question brings us to the final point. If someone knows how to get around the Gamespy issue, please post something on this. Also, if you know of a way to voice via unicom on vas (a work around), post about that too. At the end of the day, we rather say "flying was great and we spoke with some new people from the otherside of the world today" That's because we see flying to be about people communicating and enjoying the conversations, as well as being a pilot, real or virtual...

BSD

Ps. We posted here because this is for cockpitbuilders. If we were flying desktop, sitting behind a keyboard, typing messages would be a non-issue.

[saabpilot]

Hello BSD,


Fortunately on this (EU) side of the Pond VATSIM is well and very alive even in Scandinavia.
Weekdays there is good ATC coverage in Central EU between 18:00 GMT to 22:00 GMT (CET+1).
Thursday nights we have excellent ATC in Sweden.

The thing is that you do have to plan the flight a little since there will not be full ATC coverage at all destinations at the same time.
How the coverage and quality is in US I do not know as I generally only flies within EU.

In SE Asia there is less coverage as the bulk of available Asian controllers seem to reside on IVAO.

The use of text only occurs when there are communication problems in Voice OR the ATC want to send you a "private" message.
Since the invention of mini keyboards or a combination of touchscreen/virtual keyboard I see this as a non-problem.
In my sim I have a EFB computer connected with a touchscreen - that serves primarily as a nav tool with all charts but also as an interface for VATSIM with an integrated on screen virtual keyboard.

In my humble opinion VATSIM contributes immensly to the sim experience when you have good controllers online all along the flight.
For EU we are quiet lucky since the controllers generally have high standard.  Some of them are IRL ATC people as well as commercial pilots.

Try out e.g. a flight a Thursday night (Local time) when there is full ATC between ESSA (Stockholm-Arlanda) and ESGG (Gothenburg) and I believe you will be surprised over what can be achieved in regards of on-line ATC.
( Free, previously commercial, FS9 scenery (SWEDFLIGHT Pro) available at www.rbdesign.se )

Best,
Bjorn

[blueskydriver]

Hi Bjorn,

I agree with you that Vatsim is an outstanding online ATC function and when the ATC controller are there, the voice communication is great. Also, the idea behind text with an ATC controller if you do not have voice or as a backup to voice is good.

However, it's the flying with no ATC controller in your area that lacks the continuation of voice for pilots. Knowingly, a pilot does not have to announce his every move, but the way real world pilots operate, they would announce more around airports; especially, the small GA pilots would annouce downwind, base leg, final and etc... Of course were not flying a GA plane, but in either case it just seems a shame to not have pilots talking to each just because the ATC controller is not in the loop.

As for keyboards and the like, we're using a laptop in the FO seat, if it's just myself. Otherwise, FO would type out the text messages. Still, having to type on a keyboard in a cockpit kind of takes from the simulation factor...you know, removing anything that says or makes you think computer desktop. Okay, sounding a little picky, but the truth is, we're missing that interaction with other people when the ATC controller is not there.

Thank you for the info on ATC for Sweden, we'll check it out soon.

BSD

[rprather]

I've been a controller and pilot on VATSIM for years and agree it's a wonderful system. However, for sim builders I think Pilot Edge is a very promising ATC solution. They have a few features that are quite useful for sim builders:

• All facilities at ALL airports (within staffed ARTCCs) guaranteed to be available 15 hours every day. Even at small airstrips. Right now, I believe they only have this coverage on the west coast of USA (California area) but they're expanding. Their radio model allows you to tune the real frequencies, while at any airport in the ARTCC boundary, and it will connect you to the correct controller for that airport.
• Line-of-site radio simulation allows you to tune any frequency while in flight or on the ground, and anyone within line of site, who's on the same frequency, will hear you. So if you tune to the UNICOM frequency for an airport, you will only hear traffic at THAT airport, even though pilots in other regions may be on the same frequency. So if you tune 121.9 for ground control at an airport, you'll get the controller for that airport even though a nearby airport may use the same 121.9 frequency for their ground control.
• Drone pilots are set on scheduled flights, so that everyone connected to the system will see the same "AI" traffic. So even if you're the only pilot connected to the network, you'll be deviated around traffic and numbered for departure and arrival behind other private/commercial aircraft.

This information is from my understanding of how their system works. It seems quite sophisticated and will be pretty amazing as they expand. It's not a free service, but if they cover your area, it's awesome to have guaranteed ATC at every airport in the area all the way from clearance to center.

http://www.pilotedge.net/

[blueskydriver]

Hi Robert,

This is exactly whats needed! It would be worth paying for to have that type of service. After just joining Virtual Northwest Airlines, it would be perfect because we're flying routes from the KMSP Hub and that only includes so many places. Of course flying other places in the world is fun too, but having a routine helps to learn the art of flying...or just repeating things over and over.

Thanks for the information and we plan to look this up...

BSD

[XOrionFE]

Pilotedge is awesome and worth it but limited flying area.   This is really because they want to ensure a lot of traffic.   Great for GA!

Scott

[Tom_G_2010]

. . . Fourth, back to Gamespy, has anyone flown in the FS-MP or Boston Virtual ATC (BVA) sessions? BVA has a program like a vas program you download to help with flight plans and ATC . . .

I fly with BVA and it has it's pro's and con's but I have to say overall it's a class act.  Here's a little overview from one virtual pilots perspective:

They are much smaller than VATSIM and as such do have a very limited coverage area which is a drawback for many.  However their primary coverage hits the area I fly most often to it works for me.  Their Flight Desk app is really top notch and another enhancement is in Beta right now.   They have also released extensive airport updates with each event they fly so that each location is upgraded to current configuration.  They have a couple virtual airlines, Cape Air and United Regional.  And an extensive ATC training program.  They are in the process of re-vamping their pilot training program and and do quite a bit of shared cockpit mentoring and training for any who choose to take advantage of it,

They only support FSX and they have a handful of freeware and payware aircraft that aren't allowed because some are multi-player hostile.  Unfortunately that includes one of my favorite, the Carenado Cessna 337.  They have a newer app that provides live ATIS that each controller records and updates for the airport they are staffing at the time.  When a towered field is not staffed within the Boston ARTCC center provides all levels of control if on.  If not then Unicom is in use.  If the filed has a controller but is not fully staffed the controller handles everything at his level and below and center picks up the gap above his level.

I have been thinking about trying out VATSIM but haven't gotten around to it yet.  The primary reason was greater coverage.  I read about their text use but have been told that voice coverage is fairly good and text is really only used for hearing impaired pilots or the occasional comm outage.

Pilot Edge sounds real promising, but at the moment that would be $20 a month less that I could put towards my cockpit build.  I may take advantage of the 14 day trial though to check it out.

[blueskydriver]

Thanks Tom for replying and giving more insight on the BVA. Agree with you on all aspects of this ATC resource, as well as helping to lead a another way in doing ATC in general. I did check out Pilot Edge and it is as Scott says "limited flying area".

Pilot Edge covers the LAX area ARTCC, so airports within that area will be staffed during the times of 11AM-2AM PST; albeit, that tends to be better for GA pilots for a smaller, but scenic area. Cannot see paying $20 per month for it, not when you can get the same from VatSim, even though it may be limited at times, it will cover more areas.

Tom when discuss about the text usage on VatSim, it seems to be a multi-year topic, but in general it is as you say. However, that seems to follow the trend of an ATC being in the loop and if he or the pilot cannot voice communicate, they would fall back to text. Now, what about non-ATC controlled areas or where an area is just busy with pilots only; you get the buzz sound if you try to use PTT, so it is useless for unicom. Although, I am not sure what happens if you use a freq like 118.50, will it buzz then?

Hopefully, there is way to do this in the end or the Gamespy visual issue can be solved. Does anyone know about connecting to BVA, FSMP or other site through direct connect (not using Gamespy) and what happens to the visuals then? Do they stay as set in the .FLT file or will it revert?

Finally, thanks for keeping the conversation going, as it usually leads to a resolution. Heck, never heard of Pilot Edge until Robert spoke of it, so conversation is always good...

BSD

[Tom_G_2010]

. . . Does anyone know about connecting to BVA, FSMP or other site through direct connect (not using Gamespy) and what happens to the visuals then? Do they stay as set in the .FLT file or will it revert?

Finally, thanks for keeping the conversation going, as it usually leads to a resolution. Heck, never heard of Pilot Edge until Robert spoke of it, so conversation is always good...

BSD

BVA does not require Gamespy.  I believe they support Gamespy as an alternative since that it where I first saw them.  However after I applied and got a BVA ID I never again used it.  It's a direct connect arrangement.  I launch their Flight Desk for flight plan and alternate ATIS purposes and connect via server IP address directly with FSX.

I don't believe comm's are range sensative but they do support multiple discrete frequencies including unicom and when I am on at a field at a towered field with no controllers Unicom is the established standard.  As soion as we see controllers come on in Flight Desk we switch over to the appropriate freq. and establish contact with ATC.

. . .  Now, what about non-ATC controlled areas or where an area is just busy with pilots only; you get the buzz sound if you try to use PTT, so it is useless for unicom. Although, I am not sure what happens if you use a freq like 118.50, will it buzz then? . . .

I am not familiar with the buzz sound that you are referring to.  I take it that's an issue on VATSIM?  With BVA PTT works normal on all freq's with or without controllers on line.

[coma24]

A quick note, the operating hours for ATC on PilotEdge are 8am-11pm PST/PDT (15 hours a day, 7 days week). The radio system and 550+ VFR drone aircraft are available 24/7.

The venture just launched on Oct 1, so it's fairly quiet, but there are a number of commercial customers in the works that have the potential of adding a considerable amount of traffic in the next couple of months.

For now, though, retail usage tends to peak in the evening hours, by and large.

Lastly, the Los Angeles ARTCC is the only staffed facility right now, providing coverage for ~30 towered airports and considerably more non-towered airports. The Oakland ARTCC is the next facility that will be covered, hopefully by Q1 2012.

Pilots are encouraged to conduct their flights within the coverage area to receive guaranteed door-to-door ATC coverage. Additionally, there is no text on the network, it is 100% voice. This should be good news for 'pit builders!

Disclosure: I am associated with the PilotEdge venture.

[jackpilot]

Was somehow obvious, and nothing wrong about that.
Please feel free to intoduce yourself and tell us more about the whole project.
We are all ears!
Jack

[coma24]

Alrighty, will do. I'll start a separate thread if that's ok, since it is a completely different service.

[jackpilot]

Go 4 it