Curved or Flat Screens/Projectors vs TV's (LCD, Plasma or etc)

[blueskydriver]

This is a new thread to address the changeover from Curved Screens/Flat Screens with Projectors to TV's, as well as discuss what was done before with the projectors, and how or in what way you made changes to adapt to the TV's.

Right away, I'd like to know what zoom factors are you using with the TV's or are they even considered with X-Plane and/or FSX? Since X-Plane gives you the three different views per computer, how does it get setup with FSX when going to TV's?

Will it still be a 4 window view operation (like with projectors) or is the view just going to be one window, and not worry about the correct perspectives? Also, since Harry mentioned his new video card, how will that play into the TV's? In other words, will it still be 4 window view or he speaks of surround view; well, that is not going to correct like NTHUSIM (or other) does, I would think...

I think another reason that things are being brought up in the other thread; especially with me asking about rear projection right next to the window frames, is because I am thinking about what would those TV's be like when compared, if they were placed closer. Has anyone ever placed the TV's that close before? In the past, it only has been as it is within real simulators, where the images are more or less up close and personal. With projectors, you have the distance to get the depth, so is it correct to follow the same line of thinking with the TV's? Or, is it possible to pull them closer to the window frames, like the rear projection idea would be?

I know in the other thread we're the question is "Are TV's the Way?", is a good thread, but it also implies as a question in the pretense; thus, that is another good reason to start with this new thread. Although, it needs to have comparison and contrasting examples.

An example is, how are/were the FPS based on each (Projector vs TV's), in the past you got how many on the projectors and what are you getting on the TV's now? Another example; do you have any issues with the TV refresh rates because all three screens are sitting so close too each other?

So, what we really need is a good list of things that maybe only Scott and John Skibo can likely answer at this point. Better yet, you guys could write an After Action Review (AAR). That way it'll answer a fair amount of questions you might get asked repeatedly...


Best Regards,

John

[Maurice]

"how are/were the FPS based on each (Projector vs TV's), "

John, I have no direct experience as you know but simple logic would dictate that fps would be worse with TVs. The higher resolution must come at a cost with FSX and the cost would certainly not be any lower. No way to get something for nothing with FSX . P3D might help if they keep on improving it.

As for getting rid of THG and using a video card with 3 outputs or more, my experience with a GTX 690 has been that it made no difference frame rates wise. If there are differences in fluidity especially in heavy clouds, maybe there is an improvement but I have not been able to detect a difference myself.

Anyway, just my 2 cents but the other John may be able to offer a better insight once he completes his setup.

Maurice

[XOrionFE]

I don't see any difference in my frame rates between projectors or TVs.  Keep in mind though that I was running my projectors at 1920x1080 so I would not expect a difference.  Also keep in mind that I run 3 visual computers not one with a Matrox which would be a lot more pixels to render at a time.  So in short, for me frame rates are not an issue at all.

BSD, I already spoke to the issue of bringing in TVs close in the other thread but basically, yes, I brought my TVs in as close as I could to the cockpit as seen in my videos which allows them to fill up my windshields fully and gives the same sense of coverage out front and to front corners as projection where screens where about 2 ft further out.   Of course I still see the lower rear and back edges of the TVs on the sides but I could bring them in closer to eliminate that also if I felt like it.  As for sense of depth, I feel like the TVs though closer give a better sense of depth because I have 500000:1 contrast ratio compared to 2500:1 on the projectors and I also have a thousand times (not scientifically of course) more clarity plus much better blacks.   No comparison really.

The real debate between the two different visuals is whether you like mediocre clarity and really crappy blacks (night flying) but having much more screen area and no seems versus fantastic clarity, contrast, blacks, and IMHO better sense of depth but with compromise of seeing bezels and needing 5 TVs to offer same wrap around.   

Like Nat said in the other thread, it really boils down to preference.

Keep in mind though that the other major advantage of TVs over projection that cannot be left out or underestimated is the total ease of setup, replacement, alignment, and no need for extra cost of warping software.

In xplane I have each TV doing 50 degrees.  You do not need to adjust zooms.    In FSX I did similiar in Wideview for FOV but I had to zoom each up to 1.35 zoom in order to make them align.  Again, I am using three computers so this is different from what others like John Skibo will do with only one.

Hope this helps.

Scott

[Kennair]

I too bit the bullet and went down the TV route but had to limit to 42" due to sim room size.  The reasons are the same as Scott's (along with many other TV users), clarity and depth perception over physical expanse.  I also use our commercial sim with 210 degree projector visuals and yes the immersion factor is hard to argue however clarity and definition is way lower.  John you still need to configure 4 views the same as with projectors in order to get the field of view without the horrible stretching effect.  Mau, I'm using P3D and although I haven't done a direct comparison with FSX, its a struggle to get smooth frame rates in heavy airports however I am pushing 5760x1080 pixels around.  I recently upgraded to the latest i7 and a GTX680 video card and was surprised at the low frame rates managed from the system even after all the mandatory tweaks but I figure the 3 HD screens add a lot more pressure. 

I'm also running XP-10 but with only one PC so I'm restricted to a single stretched view, although its dead easy to configure the FOV to compensate i.e. adjust the FOV until you get acceptable compromise between stretching and side view.  Honestly though I have to say the only way presently to conquer the dreaded frame rate and sim smoothness issue is to run 3 separate PC's.  Certainly has to be that way for X-Plane but as Nat can attest to, the same will apply to FSX/P3D particularly once you move to Full HD regardless of using projectors or TV's.  I think Scott has proved that and we all look on with envy 

John you also asked about placing the monitors close to the window frames.  There's someone here already doing that.  I remember asking the builder about this when he posted (can't remember his name nor find the post).  He'd removed the bezel frames from his monitors (32" I think) and angled them against the windows.  My question to him was about the skewing effect of having the monitors angled, but he assured me it made little difference and looked natural.  Might be helpful to find that post or builder?

And Scott, thanks again for your informative videos and congrats for moving to TV's.  Also a big thank you for your monitor stand idea.  I was struggling to come up with an adequate solution and certainly didn't want to pay the $400 or so dollars each for commercial stands.  I've order the wall mount brackets and I'll get to the hardware for the other bits next week.  For now my monitors are standing on narrow book shelves.

Ken.

[blueskydriver]

Hey Guys,

Thank you for posting the information about the differences. I can tell you that we'll be going the path of TV's for Karen's F16 real soon. After seeing the results of the fore runners it is hard to not switch the B737 over. Then again, I am going to wait to do the B727 this way down the road, that way I have both...

Although, once I can get into Scott's playhouse...hint, hint...I'll likely be persuded into changing over. Not by Scott, but by my own excitement of seeing his, as well as that drool coming from my lips does funny things to one's self and it will effect my brain!

Okay, being serious now, is there any cross interference from one TV to the other and what are the TV's set at in regards to Hz? Is it 60Hz or higher? Also, do you have any glare or reflection issues; most likelynot, but I figure too ask? What about plexiglass ghosting, if you have plexi on your shell? With the projectors, the image is at a higher to lower angle light reflection so it's not seen, but with TV's straight on, I am curious does any ghosting show up on the plexi because of this?

Ken, sorry I forgot about your setup. With you having one and access to the other, can you judge a viewing fatigue time frame based on using both? In other words, when watching video there is a said amount of viewing time before eye fatigue begins, which becomes eye strain later, and leads to an end or dead point to where what you're viewing is useless. I know this is a stretch of a question, but from projectors where you watch reflective indirect light from the screen, as opposed to the TV's where it is direct light. Therefore, between the two you'll have a time frame before you hit the end point and that will give you the amount of time you can sit in the sim doing flights or training.

Most of us might not care, but if you notice wanting to fly less with TV's, that suggest the direct light is making you reach the end point sooner. Of course there are a lot of other "human" factors involved, but it is valuable to know this because you would know to adjust your TV's too make it better. For example, you might reduce the brightness or the distance of the TV from your eye point. Or, you might add a solid color light behind the TV's to affect the end point or the flicker factor.

I am sure most understand why you leave a light on when watching TV's or why (some) movie theaters have the sidewall lights on at a very dim level, or you've seen the new LCD TV's with color lights on the backside? All of this is to reduce the end point time, strain, and for some people, to keep you from developing headaches from long term viewing. As I said, most of us homebuilders might not care, but in a training enviroment it is very important.

Hey Scott, do you think you might go with 5 monitors? Or, I know this is the same for projectors, but what about repair and replacement with TV's? With a projector you just box it up and out it goes, but what about a TV and would it be wise to buy an extra one for backup; especially, since the turnover sales rate of TVs is more frequent then projectors...

John/BSD

[jskibo]

Nice thing about TVs is another 60" of any brand fills the hole just fine.  No need to fret over having a spare.

And for repairs?   John I have five Panasonic plasma's in my house, one Panasonic LED and three Westinghouse LEDs.  The sim makes that 8 Panasonic plasma's.  never had an issue with any of them, some going on 5 years now. 

[nicd]

The real debate between the two different visuals is whether you like mediocre clarity and really crappy blacks (night flying) but having much more screen area and no seems versus fantastic clarity, contrast, blacks, and IMHO better sense of depth but with compromise of seeing bezels and needing 5 TVs to offer same wrap around.   

But that's the thing though .. I'm not seeing medioccre clarity or crappy blacks with close-in projection to a high quality back-projection screen. In fact, I've had good blacks with a previous system front projecting to 3 x 4-metre walls.. used to night-fly regularly. As I've said in the other thread ... I don't think the degree of difference between TVs and newer projection methods that is being put forward here is necessarily realistic. Conclusions like "No comparison really" does not give a fair view of the breadth of the debate. Let's not forget.. some people here are making decisions to buy new things and throw away things based on what we're saying. Talk up TVs and their benefits for sure, but let's keep some balance .. which is why I chimed in a few days ago.

In reference to an earlier question.. I tried back-projecting to screen material mounted directly on the windows. It had some plusses immersion and clarity wise, but there are wierd angular effects - particularly from using two screens across the two angled front windows to show the single relatively flat field of view that the sim software is putting out. Just wierd really.. a bit like flying into a corner. So I dropped it a long while back.

If the front view could be split in half and angled properly (there must be a way), and TVs made so the bezels fitted the window shapes exactly .. then maybe!   

[Kennair]

Ken, sorry I forgot about your setup. With you having one and access to the other, can you judge a viewing fatigue time frame based on using both? In other words, when watching video there is a said amount of viewing time before eye fatigue begins, which becomes eye strain later, and leads to an end or dead point to where what you're viewing is useless. I know this is a stretch of a question, but from projectors where you watch reflective indirect light from the screen, as opposed to the TV's where it is direct light. Therefore, between the two you'll have a time frame before you hit the end point and that will give you the amount of time you can sit in the sim doing flights or training.

John, I've currently had more sim time on projectors than my TV's and there are definitely significant pro's and con's to both, all of which are very subjective.  I really haven't flown enough with the TV's to tell but I think there is a higher possibility for eye fatigue due to the higher contrast ratio over projectors so you may prefer to sim with some sort of ambient lighting for longer flights, and with TV's you can easily do this without effecting the view.  Projectors pretty much have to be flown with as little ambient light as possible but in my experience long flights don't provide much fatigue possibly due to the ambient lighting in the cockpit.  I have found this to be a very personal experience however and you notice this with customers reacting quite differently.  The same applies to the apparent effect of movement.  Even though our B777 is a fixed base, many customers comment on the movement they felt while banking and turning.  We of course play along with it and agree    Only time will tell whether TV's result in greater fatigue or not.

To really compare apples with apples however I think you'd need full wrap around views with TV's i.e. 5 screens.  Scott's setup comes very close to that comparison and it would be interesting to see the results once he's blacked out the side windows.  Two extra TV's would really complete the experience (Scott?  ).  Once the eye's see nothing but outside views and no walls or ceiling, the immersion is complete and the brain tricks begin.  I plan to eventually box my TV's in with black lining so all you see is view, and there maybe another 2 TV's added for 90 degree viewing.  Perhaps Steve Cos could chime in with his customer experiences as they seem to be using TV's more and more.

My TV's are running HD at 50hz but this is due to the TH2GO which runs 5760x1080 at 50hz.  I've tried unsuccessfully to get nvidia's surround working on my TV's but even then it would only allow for 60hz as this is the max for these TV's.  No cross interference between TV's and also no glare but this might depend on the model and the ambient light source.  Mine have a matt finish to the screens and being LED backlit they are very light and maneuverable.  As for replacement and longevity, I have an LCD TV in the house that is beyond 6 years old and still going strong.  The sim TV's only cost $400 each so replacement is comparable to projector globes however I expect a much longer life out of them.

Ken.

[Nat Crea]

Ben (no not BenQ LOL) and I were discussing this over at FDS...
Nice move forward in HD Short Throw from BenQ, but unfortunately throw ratio is 0.69....so close!
Still usable, but with some short comings in image size compare to 0.5

Nat

[tennyson]

Ken,
I was the one who mounted the two 32" samsung TV's in the front screens.

I only had a few flights with it, before I decided to scrap the idea and go over to a 3 projector curved screen build.
I've since bought an FDS shell and am busy moving it all to a new house before setting upagain.

I took the TV's from their bezels and mounted them in the window frames. Even tho the two front screens looked good and flew well with little distortion, it was the complicated set-up needed to follow up with the side windows, that was it's undoing.

I've also considered 3 65" high def tv's which are pretty cheap at the moment, but I'll wait until these new batch of HD projectors hit the market before making any final decisions.

Besides, I got lots of building to keep me busy before then,



Frank Cooper

[Kennair]

Ah yes the boy from Brisbane.  I thought it was a mad Aussie who would try that sort of thing 

Thanks Frank, as I said pros and cons to both projector and TV's and ultimately up to your own desires.  Cost wise I think it's much of a muchness but installation is much simpler with TV's.  Anyway, I'm very interested in the new batch of HD projectors coming out for the commercial sim.  There really is nothing like 10m of view out your window to wow the customers.

Ken.

[Nat Crea]

Honestly Ben...a bit small compared to a "normal" screens
I set up of 1900-2000mm H. But not to say you can't use them.

Nat

[fordgt40]

Ben

I think the best way to find out is to draw it out yourself. This link has the majority of the dimensions you will need for the cockpit.

http://www.markuspilot.com/page42.html

Use graph paper and do a cross section of your cockpit. Then having positioned where you think the projectors are best sited, use the "throw" dimensions to plot out the angles of projection. Just bear in mind that the projectors cannot all occupy the same central point. This exercise will answer most of your questions.

David

[HarryZ]

Having gone the 3 tv screens, single projector, 3 projector/TH2G and Surround View (Nvidia 660), my preference at this time is the projectors vs tvs.  But as pointed out, it becomes personal preference and space availability.

At this time, tv's have an advantage over projectors in the resolution/clarity department. Projectors give a better depth perception but they come with logistical problems (warping software, space, quality etc).  In the commercial world, projectors are king, especially the very high end units which can cost upwards of $ 10,000.  At the I/ITEC conference in Orlando FL in December, I saw a projector image provided by CAE and it would blow you away!  And it was shown in normal lighting...I can imagine how it looked with proper lower ambient lighting.

Projectors are becoming better as we have seen with the latest BenQ units but their set-up and warping software take time and patience to get it right.

I've used both TH2G and Surround View and the frame rates are pretty much the same.  But Surround View gets rid of some latency  from the TH2G and gives a clearer and crisper texture depiction (at least in my experience)

Night flying still needs some tweaking with projectors but there is Deep Black from Univisual which addresses that issue. Hopefully in the not too distant future I'll work with that.

Harry