Cockpitbuilders.com

Hey guys,
Been doing some work on the IRS switches located on aft ovhd this evening.

For those who are unsure of the real IRS switches they are locked to the OFF and ATT positions meaning that you need to pull the knob to turn the switch to OFF and ATT. To turn them from OFF and ATT, you will not need to pull the knob.

http://youtu.be/Gy7vTcFmZZk

Best wishes,
Anders

Hi Archen

Should fit fine on a Simworld Aft Ohead with about 3 mm to spare.

The width isn't a problem, its the distance between the annunciators and the bottom of the panel.

If its any help,  i have a full Autocad file of all the 738 panels i can send you.

Hello

Thank you very much for your fast reply.

I would love to have that file if you don't mind. Please email me at the email above in the first post.

Many thanks!!

Anders


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File is on its way :)

Having a think about it, if you could orientate the switch so that the flat sides were at the top and bottom, it would give more room to move.

Thanks!!

I was also thinking about that solution. I might add a few holes holes so the user can use which suits their Ovhd best.

Thanks for your input! Much appreciated .

Anders


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Hi Anders

I can check my Engravity overhead tomorrow for you.

While your here, do you have any autobrake rotarys in stock?

Sean

Thanks a lot Sean! Looking forward to your report.

I have one auto brake in stock Sean.
After this one I will not be able to deliver any for some weeks if my supplier don't get more rotary switches faster than expected. The last information I got from them was early February :(

I'm looking at alternatives but doesn't look to good.


Edit: found two more rotarys. Will make two more auto brake tomorrow.

Best regards,
Anders


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I'll buy that switch. I will speak with you tomorrow.

Ok. I'll keep that switch for you. Thanks!




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Hi Anders,

They will fit in a FDS Aft OVH. In the z-direction however they have to cope with the rims of the mounting frame and a bracket, in total 3 mm in height. See pictures for details.

Edward

Fantastic Edward! Thank you very much!

It will clear the the bracket. Actually it is the same mounting as the autobrake. Do you think the autobrake fit in at depth also?

I'm using the autobrake housing, just another mechanism in the bottom part.

Anders


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Quote from: archen on January 06, 2014, 01:39:16 AM
Fantastic Edward! Thank you very much!

It will clear the the bracket. Actually it is the same mounting as the autobrake. Do you think the autobrake fit in at depth also?

I'm using the autobrake housing, just another mechanism in the bottom part.

Anders


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Anders I cannot confirm the available depth since I did not assemble the FDS nose section yet. But if required it's always possible to make a hole in the shell.

Sorry I missunderstood you regarding the z depth about the bracket. The switch has exactly the same measures as the autobrake so it's not that long so that would not be required I guess. If I recall correctly Steve told me there is quite much space in the shell.

As mickc proposed, I have now added more selectable mounting postions. Now the switch can be mounted in different orientations if needed.

/
Anders

Short demo of the first switch

http://youtu.be/Gy7vTcFmZZk


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Edit: new video

Archen, are you good with the simworld Aft overhead or do you need more dimensions?

Any news on the Yaw Damper switches?  I know you're busy, just wondering.

Warren

Hey Warren,

At the moment I'm good, thank you for offering your help. Looks like the switch will fit without problems.


Regarding the yaw damper I have bad news. I don't feel comfortable with the heat the solenoid is generating so I'm looking at another solution. When I decided not to manufacture the version I showed you guys I was well into these switches so when IRS switches is official I'm going to redesign yaw damper. Sorry, but risking anyone's cockpit due to the overheat problem does not feel good and I would never risk that so this was the only option.

I do have an idea how to achieve the same result (solenoid not kicking the toggle back) without having to power the solenoid at all time.

I'll post this in that thread as well.

Anders


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No issues Anders.  Understood and appreciate the update.

Enjoy your progress to your PPL.  One of the best days of my life when I solo'ed for the first time!

Many thanks Warren!


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Hi Anders

Here are a couple of pics of the back of the current Engravity performance line (DIY) AFT overhead. Very uncluttered, the switches should fit okay. The locating holes are in the 2 o'clock position when viewed from the back. Just need a little clearance for the backlighting, if that can be incorporated (or modified).

Thank you very much Sean! Perfect pictures. Now we can confirm it will fit in simworld, FDS and engravity. I guess they will fit all scale Ovhd's.

Big thanks to everyone!

Regarding the backlight, it is 4mm space between panel and switch so it should not be any problems to fit a few leds or point a led strip in under. Same for the starters, autobrake and n1/SPD ref switches.

Anders


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Anders


I have simworld aft overhead.   I'll check for you tomorrow.


Mark

Hey Mark,

Simworld, FDS and engravity is confirmed so I think I might have all I need at the moment.

I'm now waiting for some information to be confirmed from a couple of real world pilots before I officially finish them and add them to my products on the website.

Thanks for offering your help!

/Anders


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Sorry, just read whole thread, came in a bit late didn't i : )

Hi Anders

My AFT OVHD is from Sismo and your switches would fit here, too.



I didn't do the backlighting yet. Will wait for your switches first...

:-)

Thanks for another great hardware addition!

Cheers,

Andreas

Guys,
Some update regarding the switch.

I've been given the information that there is two different IRS MODE SELECTOR switches available. One for 2/300 series and one for NG series.

The difference between these two switches is that the detented positions looks different. As you can see on the movie this IRS switch have detents between ALIGN->OFF and NAV->ATT. This is the 2/300 switch.

*Below is only confirmed by Boeing documentation and a video of a 600NG real switch.*

It appears that the NG's have the NAV position Guarded, in practice you will need to pull the knob to get out of NAV. You will not need to pull the knob to go to NAV though. So the difference is that you not have to pull the knob to go from ALIGN to OFF like in the 300 series but instead you will have to pull the knob to go from NAV to ALIGN or NAV to ATT.

This is not yet confirmed in the real aircraft though, could be other options but I have two real-world NG pilots who will confirm this for me.

Necessary changes to the mechanism have already been done, just waiting to get this confirmed.

Any NG pilots here who have any information in this matter?

Made some research and found some incidents where pilots accidentally turn IRS out of NAV so logically I find it more likely that the NAV should be guarded in both direction.

I'll keep you updated


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This is a pic of the Ryanair cockpit companion. Also mentions pulling out the knob to get to OFF.

Oh god, a third version??? Looks like I have to go with the most common option. I'll post back tomorrow when I got the report from my pilot friend.

Boeing NG documents doesn't tell anything about a detent between ALIGN and OFF, only NAV. RYR option maybe? Wrong in FCOM? Can it really be so many different versions of a switch?

Anders


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I couldn't see any video links in your post, but I found a one on YouTube which looks like the classic version, and this one on aviafilms...

http://www.aviafilms.com/boeing-737.php (http://www.aviafilms.com/boeing-737.php)

Scroll to 4th video

I was referring to my video (works like the 300's.

I just checked my FCOM from TUIFly 2010. That does only have an detented NAV.

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fimg.tapatalk.com%2Fd%2F14%2F01%2F08%2F7eru9e9a.jpg&hash=277210e7bd343b5e5f84e68d0104942022a8ab61)




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Bill Bulfer's 737NG Cockpit Companion says OFF-knob must be pulled out which decreases risk of accidental selection and NAV is detented.

ATT has a two second delay to prevent accidental selection

Ok thanks. Looks like there are some versions out there. I don't really see the usage of a detented off position. In flight it's important not to get out of NAV, not important you don't go to off.

This just got even more interesting :) I hope get a report from my friend tomorrow. He is flying yr 201* NGs. He's report will weight heavy in my decision.




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Got this video from Phil. From an NG.

http://youtu.be/AM1qtXa0bYw

Big thanks to Phil for this video!


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The more I read about them the more convinced I get that they work like Phil's NG switch. Almost every documentation I've found tells NAV is detented, nothing more.

Have anyone seen the other switch documented in RYR FCOM and Bill buffler? Video or real life, please share all your experience from the real switches.

No report from my friend yet.


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Quote from: fsaviator on January 07, 2014, 01:54:10 PM
Bill Bulfer's 737NG Cockpit Companion says OFF-knob must be pulled out which decreases risk of accidental selection and NAV is detented.

ATT has a two second delay to prevent accidental selection

Warren, this is exactly what can be seen in the Ryanair FCOM photo.

And this makes absolutely sense. When switching from ALIGN to OFF accidentially you will loose aligning immediately.

Best,

Andreas

Can you see any date of published on the FCOM or Bill bufflers? Trying to sort out when this could have been changed or if this is an option available which RYR have. TUIFly don't have this feature in 2010's FCOM.

Mickc: thanks for your input! Based on real world experience or documentation?


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Just to throw more confusion into the mix  :P :

Here is the extract from the 738-800/900 Maintenance Manual:

QuoteThe mode selectors have a feature to decrease the risk that the
flight crew will accidentally put the ADIRU in a mode that will
disable its operation. When the selector is in the NAV position,
the operator must pull the knob to put it in the ATT mode. When
the selector is in the ALIGN position, the operator must pull the
knob to put the selector in the OFF position. All other position
changes do not require the operator to pull the knob.

And similar in the 737-300/400/500 Version:

QuoteEach mode select switch has detented positions. The detented positions prevent accidental
movement of the switch. In a detented position, the switch must first be pulled out of the detent before
selecting another position to prevent damage to the switch. In the NAV position, the switch must first
be pulled out of detent before selecting the ATT position. In the ATT position, the switch must first be
pulled out of detent before selecting the NAV position. In the ALIGN position, the switch must first be
pulled out of detent before selecting the OFF position.

I'll disregard the information about 300/400/500 as this is not what I'm trying to simulate but according to the information given in the NG manual it appears to work like my switch does today. Have I understood it correctly?


If we try to learn more from what happens with the different modes maybe we can figure out how it should be.

What happens if the pilot in-flight turn the knob from NAV to ALIGN and then back to NAV? Will they lose reference? I know that they will lose reference if turned to ATT for more than 2 seconds (therefor the detent)

But if there is no harm in moving the switch to ALIGN in-flight the detent should maybe be to OFF?



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Looks like it!

Mickc, updated my post. Any thoughts?


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Edit: Found this: http://www.37000feet.com/report/794992/B737-700-captain-selected-both-IRS-switches-to-align-in-flight-believing (http://www.37000feet.com/report/794992/B737-700-captain-selected-both-IRS-switches-to-align-in-flight-believing)

Looks like moving the switch from NAV -> ALIGN causes IRS to lose reference. In that case, guarded NAV, like in Phil's video feel like the best solution. The detent to OFF does not help much if you lose everything by moving it to ALIGN if there is no detent between NAV-> ALIGN.

I agree, that sound like the best option. 

Ill dig out my other docs and see if theres any more info.

I did Sean. Interesting video! But I could only see the switch operated from OFF to NAV. All versions works the same that way.

What's I'm looking for is how the switch operates when moving from NAV to ALIGN and ATT. Also from ALIGN to OFF where RYR (Unknown year) FCOM actually tells you to lift the knob to go to OFF. I haven't seen that anywhere else except RYR manual and bill buffler. Bill buffler is dated 1998 so that can be outdated.

I Asked a friend who knows a guy flying for RYR to check this in their fleet next time.




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Quote from: archen on January 07, 2014, 11:06:40 PM
If we try to learn more from what happens with the different modes maybe we can figure out how it should be.

What happens if the pilot in-flight turn the knob from NAV to ALIGN and then back to NAV? Will they lose reference? I know that they will lose reference if turned to ATT for more than 2 seconds (therefor the detent)

But if there is no harm in moving the switch to ALIGN in-flight the detent should maybe be to OFF?

This is the only other reference in the AFMM about what happens when changing modes:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi.imgur.com%2FYG3xjqK.png&hash=1c77fc5d5f25a2cd5897b6b62fad0dfe62da2c30)


Although the NAV to ALIGN is listed, it states "Aircraft not moving"

Thanks! I guess they did not list NAV-> ALIGN in-flight because that is not normal operation.


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OK,

I've attached the pertinent page from Boeing's FCOM (Not Airline Specific) on the 737-800 for the IRS.  It only mentions detent on NAV.

Thanks warren. Looks like my FCOM from 2010 (tuifly branded).

Looks like that is the most common. Still, would be interesting to know why they differ to others. Options or revisions?




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Just did the other mechanism.. To compare.


http://youtu.be/LPc_h31PKr4


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I like them!  Have you decided on a price range?

Thanks, just tested the switch in prosim and it worked perfect. I like this one more when NAV is guarded. I'll probably offer both versions though. In prosim you are able to regain the IRSes when turning them to ALIGN. Don't know if that's correct or not but it would definitely explain why some airplanes have the other version I did with detents between ALIGN -> OFF. If ALIGN don't hurt you midair in NG, I guess that detent does more sense to protect the pilot from turning it to OFF rather than ALIGN.


Haven't decided if I should price them as a pair or single. Pair?

The switch has the same costs and manufacturing time (CNC machining, assembly) so they will be priced like the autobrake switch is per each.


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So I just got one of two reports from real world pilots. Looks like there are quite many different IRS switches out there.

This one is a Norweigian 738.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=UPwVBzfomIc


http://youtu.be/dqYsv3prqqo


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Outstanding!  I like that one.

+1 for me. We are coming closer. Thanks for the instructive video's!

Me too. The last one is my favorite. Maybe it's because it has so many detents :-)

I'm just waiting for the last report now.

Anders


Really like to two detent version (Norwegian) and I guess the detents don't really concern prosim as I know the irs switch already functions in all positions.


My personal preference would be the two detent switch ( more work for you!)


Nice videos.


Cheers


Mark

Sorry, just saw this thread, our fleet of over 100 Ng's use the same config as the Norwegian video shown on the previous page.

Gary

Gary


Good to know that other operators use this option


thanks




Mark

Thanks Gary! Sounds great! I liked that switch the most.

I'll be back with more info soon


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I heard back from my mate who flies Thomson (UK) NG's. The IRS switch on the a/c he flew yesterday works exactly like the Norwegian one.

I heard from my friend who is flying very new NG's that they also work like the last one.


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Ok, so guys, here is what I'm going todo.

I've gathered information from real-world pilots, full flight simulators, users that have the real switches available and youtube realworld videos.
This research got me three different types of switches. And of course most of this information come directly from you guys so thanks for improving this switches.

1.   The first one from a -300 is option 1. Detented positions: NAV->ATT, ALIGN->OFF
B737 IRS MODE SELECTOR (OPTION 1) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8zRdAG482f0#ws)

2.   The second one is from an unknown airline, probably from an United -600. Detented positions: NAV->ATT, NAV->ALIGN
B737 IRS MODE SELECTOR (OPTION 2) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yz0hitKhGYc#ws)

3.   The third version is confirmed on Norwegian B738, Thompson B738, TUIfly B738 (2010+). Detented positions: NAV->ATT, ATT->NAV, ALIGN->OFF.
B737 IRS MODE SELECTOR (OPTION 3) (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dqYsv3prqqo#ws)

A fourth version was also in discussion and is found in RYR FCOM but I have no proof that this version exists IRL and I have never seen a video with this type. This version is therefor disused for me.

I will initially offer all three versions at the same cost, these will be priced at SEK1490 for a pair of IRS switches.

I'm missing hardware to start assemly switches. The hardware is on backorder and is estimated 10th of february. I hope to get it sooner. As you guys know I'm beginning to study for my PPL very soon so if you wanna get a switch from the first batch I'll need your pre-order during January at latest to have a chance to make all parts in advance and then just assembly when I get the hardware. I'll ship pre-orders within 24hours after I receive the hardware.

If you prefer to pay prior to shipping select "invoice" as payment type. You will then receive an invoice when your order is ready to be shipped.

I would like to thank everyone participated in this thread. Without your feedback these would not be this good for sure so THANKS guys. Good discussions.

http://archensimparts.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=66&product_id=59 (http://archensimparts.com/index.php?route=product/product&path=66&product_id=59)

Best regards,
Anders

Ordered :)

Ordered.  : )

Thanks guys!


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Just an headsup. Next week (1th of February) is the deadline of preorders. All preorders up until this date will be delivered in the middle of Feb (as soon as I receive the hardware which is on backorder).

I've now started my PPL study and it's great fun but also time consuming like I thought. When study allows I will make more switches but that could be a few weeks away from first delivery.

Other products that is out of stock is of course also 2-4 weeks lead time depending on workload on the studies.


Anders


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goodluck for the PPL Anders : )

Thanks Mark :) really looking forward to start flying now


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Ordered  :-)

Tack, Anders!

Andreas

Quote from: andthiel on January 26, 2014, 08:10:52 AM
Ordered  :-)

Tack, Anders!

Andreas

Danke schön Andeas :-)

Hello guys,
Some updates for all of you that are waiting for your orders to be shipped.

My supplier received the rotaryswitches yesterday and was sent to me this morning. They will arrive in the middle of next week so very soon (probably on Thursday) I'll be able to send all pre-orders.

Regards,
Anders

That's good news, Anders!

I am looking forward to receiving mine...

Cheers,

Andreas

All orders is now packed and labeled. Will be handed over to postal service tomorrow.

Thanks to anyone! Hope you will enjoy the switches.

One note to all which is not in the manual. When attaching the shaft. Adjust the shaft with the two grab screws. When installed correctly the switch shall operate very smooth.

Looking forward to your feedback.

Best regards,
Anders

Cheers Anders.

I received the switches today and mounted them in my FDS panel. They are operating very smooth. Thanks Anders for this great product!  :)

Received mine yesterday, thanks Anders.

OFF-ALIGN-NAV-ATT is the correct order. The ALIGN mode in never used anymore due to higher precision demands today than when the IRS system was developed which has made a full alignment before every flight mandatory and that is only achieved by switching the knobs to OFF and then NAV again. The ATT position is only used in case of a malfunction, so disregard that one.

      //Peter

@Anders


Received, installed, very nice thanks.


Mark

Great to hear guys! Thanks for the reports. Hope to see some videos someday :-)

Got mine today in Australia, top job as usual mate!!