I just replaced my three Optoma GT1080 projectors with the new Optoma GT1080Darbee version.
The new Darbee technology feature is advertised to enhance sharpness, color, and depth perception.
So my initial report:
Pros:
The Darbee feature works as advertised. It does make a very noticeable difference with regards to the crispness of the projection particular for smaller details. It also seems to impart a kind of "depth" perception. All that is definitely an improvement. There is a slick feature where you can evaluate your Darbee setting (0-120) in a split screen format. I have mine running at the nominal 70. Looks fine, not artificial etc., but I will be experimenting with higher settings.
Brightness and Contrast specs are slightly better....and does seem to be an improvement even with Darbee turned off
Same low price.
Cons:
I was hoping the new projectors would eliminate the slight differences I was seeing in color hue and intensity from one projector to the other. Somewhat disappointingly, there is little improvement in that regard. Two of my new projectors are exactly the same, but the one other is slightly different. So I am back to fussing with color settings etc. My conclusion is that this has been and still is an inherent issue with these projectors.
Same low price....you can't expect to get anymore than you pay for.
Fred K
How is the screen door effect Fred?
There is no evidence that anything has changed regarding pixelation.
However the "screen door" effect has never been an issue in my setup....it has to do with projected pixel concentration.
For two reasons in my case:
(1) I am projecting onto a 18' wide x 4' high screen. This is a somewhat smaller screen size than most here use. It serves to concentrate projected pixels.
(2) I am using a 4:3 format with butted (no overlap) projection. As reported previously I have gone back and forth on this one but I have locked into the "butted" method. The issue is that with the overlap method your visible pixel concentration is diluted further due to the lost pixels in the overlap area. Also, I have experienced that periodically my screen calibration will drift requiring recalibration. A butted projection is far more tolerant in this regard than the slightly blurred overlap region that occurs otherwise.
The net is that I lose somewhat in the immersiveness of a larger projection area, but I gain in the quality of the projection with regards to brightness and clarity of detail....with absolutely no screen door perception.
But to each his own on this. It is a matter of preference.
Fred K
Thanks Fred.. I know some screens have it really bad, and you loose the detail of taxi signs etc with the screen door effect.
If I was to go to Projectors, (Which I can't unless I get some really short throw projectors) But If I was, I would also use the butted method. I am not a fan of the projector overlap myself either.
Trev
I use one projector only for outside display (about 15' wide screen) and with the high resolution that the Optoma allows I get no screen door effect.
(https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/923/FBRTgm.jpg)
I spent aeons trying to get the perfect blend and merge and then one day, a long time back, I got it.
Then I continued to have a near perfect merge and blend for about a year of fabulous flying.
Then along came all of the upgrades.
P3d V4 and 4.1, as good as they have been, have wrecked my perfect blend and I am once more, back in the toilet.
I spent near on 3 months toying and toiling to get that same result I had earlier achieved, but could not, due to massive differences in all three projectors.
I took drastic measures and built a single, monster PC and am OC'ing the bejesus out of it, and running my 3 GTX 1080's in it, to see if running from a single PC will give me the blend and warp again.
I've done extensive testing and have all my new Prosim 2.0 set up and ready to go, along with the dreary job of installing thousands of dollars of add-on scenery and utility software.
Next job is to get it out in the cockpit and set it up with Fly-Elise and do a calibration using Calibration Pro and then ultimate installation of the output files into Immersive display pro.
I know that works, quite a few are doing it, but I wanted an environment with traffic, high end graphic scenery, decent weather depiction and a few utilities, such as FS Flight control, without running an overpriced slide show.
So, I will be venturing into the unknown shortly. Hope 2018 returns me to the nirvana of 2016.....
I must also say, that you, Fred, along with other helpful forum guru's, with your wonderful information, led to me originally cracking the earlier state of visual bliss.
Frank
Thanks for the information, Fred.
It's disappointing to say the least that the color isn't consistent across projectors. Having looked at the Darbee version, I was intrigued by the REC.709 HDTV color space the projector uses and was hoping that the reference model would significantly reduce the color/saturation/hue differences.
Maybe some further experimentation is in order?
I am excited that I'll be replacing 2 low-end BenQ projectors with 3 Optima units. I may be able to get more light out of them because with 3, I can get them closer to the screen as light drop-off is a square of the distance.
Quote from: Trevor Hale on January 23, 2018, 04:34:52 PM
How is the screen door effect Fred?
It's been a while since I've delved into the projection world, but back when I built my home theater, "screen door effect" (SDE) was always associated to LCD projectors.
Did that issue also moved on to DLP? I've never seen SDE on any of my DLP PJ's unless I was a foot from the screen. I do recall the big thing about DLP was the "rainbow" effect, which I wasn't susceptible to.
Fred. That is disappointing to say the least. Can a professional calibration get the PJ colors close enough? Wonder what the colorimeter readings on each PJ would be?
With low cost projectors, the manufacturers aren't going to spend a lot of time tweaking. As long as the calibration falls within certain range, that PJ is going out the door.
This was literally my first look at the projector performance, and to be sure, the difference across projectors that I am seeing is better than what I had previously. I do plan to investigate color uniformity tweaking further of course, however the first priority is to do a Fly Elise screen recalibration. The color uniformity may be something simple to get perfect in this case, but I know from experience that one can get lost with the many interacting variables involved what with individual color settings, gamma correction etc. doing it in the typical "trial and error" method. Using actual colorimeter measurements and related software is something I have not pursued. Has anyone actually done this and can recommend such? I think I will have a look at all that.
Fred K
Quote from: FredK on January 24, 2018, 03:12:32 PM
Actual colorimeter measurements and professional help is something I never thought about. Is there a specific step-by-step process one can follow for colorimetry rather than grunt "trial and error"? I have to look into that.
Fred K
Fred. Its been a while for me and I don't want to steer you wrong. The folks over at AVSForum might have the answer you seek.
Brian Williamson from the Gold Coast put a post up here about colour calibrators a while back. Maybe he can chime in here, as to the results he achieved.
Frank
Speaking of Optoma GT1080Darbee projectors - I also have them.
Here is a couple of quick HD videos demonstrating the dynamic Darbee test mode on ORBX Innsbruck scenery.
Darbee mode ON from left to right and OFF otherwise.
https://youtu.be/TXE4x3Y6YoM
https://youtu.be/gCLuFIg3cpw
:2cw:
Nick
Nick,
From the two video's, I see no difference as (I presume) the swipe goes one way or the other. As there is no audio to tell us what is happening, it is hard to tell if this is the point you are trying to make, especially as it's a static shot with no movement.
If that is the case, I see no discernible difference with the darbee turned on.
Frank
If you see it firsthand you will see a definite difference...it is just difficult to capture such nuances in a video.
Fred K
Quote from: tennyson on January 24, 2018, 09:35:08 PM
Nick,
From the two video's, I see no difference as (I presume) the swipe goes one way or the other. As there is no audio to tell us what is happening, it is hard to tell if this is the point you are trying to make, especially as it's a static shot with no movement.
If that is the case, I see no discernible difference with the darbee turned on.
Frank
Hi Frank,
If you watch video full-screen at 1080p, look at these areas circled red. Darbee swipes ON from left to right and you should see areas getting more contrast and clear. Sim was in Pause mode.
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/KrOWzvUIaP8bl9blBHezrSSrEWC-pvOQGBZFctwn4AwskfG8KsUGpYq7-TjMny6ojEJqHyP74_4Mab_lZ8BJgwEu2JFWlY9ugLLWmjRKZl2iajqhlIXpIgS8ShUIrIFVMUwXenrp2ni1SNw6CxvmwlBhPp34282neGXTzgpVbwLtBCj8Ud5hVGKlNfUgB_f_vgeYTuymprVqhujB390gQ8tqzXauae-5gkrlhLLErP6GtVbRjcvMJ35mYrO1OYeDUGpDVoJYlOtmA4mg40WxeNJgJZQOQYui9sJ8qJKlZVFhzB7UFqI2vYsZ1lfOMTSpgRGpMjIH3M5SLnT8Bky5Qe2R9o1e5pMgdFRMPuBBSVntWkp86CE6q_5Rgl2oQ5cj7ikUhdldQ6XxqoLLPV7-m1rs9LEqqVJwWEiZL9kXebO_AgL-nU1y-GpKVsBZQSEOjFBb0PMrHajp_nVnOoSAOpIWsNXweWA6PzZ7YHqa_V85w8UYUIqoDq1E9IZ6OhDLKxwrbpryNg6xFU-kq8nvi9iLKiWj9FgUG4sRGLRw_04XiFKi7O7zAwUtC16l4MP2dXHLFrMZvKSoDXptJFjlXzVQgVd7a_5Ktlzqvx0=w961-h542-no)
(https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/I-1vEUuxjSTwjTpdukKeaUxUPsI70cQGkvQDZy5MIx3Jx8Ii5HQEFhXoIFcOmM6WjKiy8q6USEulqp94BYWDOBP3dA_2ImDJ6pIDAUG686ZkDhZvv6fpUe02wKxPKyPJhfGKpH5a6LeqokyArPALZnSGdmL_a29-01AlsSC77jreN4sgeNuHKk4P3_wG1OBWKFaZjq0uXOMbyMOp6W5owxP5J5Ns4COfM7xqO5v4-TUh0K88-Wtqb2r98O3N84cjIMs0mGfQBcQDWQJQB6UoAK2nahqcDWbYvzmX2YFG2zVviJPdZr6u2tkNOg08MLSEKSDtmkUEVXAJPogrgSmpKRjFRMHxkPWTa2YkPxlSBQ09WOS2qqawWVxycjl-iJthnr5-LQOAIey-9c1yuSvdOhbV1LuAAPbQEYq2H8im8zO9rOKc-vhv3IZDBrR2dj-Tl3bw_EnvoY-U2T2QaSQ2b-oeU5pdjGaP30XgU8bT07P-MDeVHHzw63-QneoBe1Hkr7poDb8_7NNFWMMNnxR3nGx_jvCOmWcgGE_CX1XDwIYyRILKgFZgQHBxXLsanvECOfUgekuDoofkX9X8zKkl7UlHR5SzeduxdMCesqU=w960-h571-no)
The effect is noticeable and could be compared, like, you a wearing dirty glasses and then clean them up. :)
Nick
Hi guys, impressive! I have thee unopened Optoma GT1080, my screen is 16x4 projection area. I am upgrading all my systems for P3D4.1 and ProSim2.0.
Having said that, can you guys shime in with recommendation to keep current PJ or to get the new version.
Cheers
Luis
If it were me, I'd upgrade. Because as you're flying with the old ones the thought will always be in the back of your head "This could be better"
8)
Wise advice Ray! What could I ask for the 3 brand new unopened ones
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Quote from: RayS on January 25, 2018, 11:32:41 AM
If it were me, I'd upgrade. Because as you're flying with the old ones the thought will always be in the back of your head "This could be better"
8)
LOL. Ray will spend your money guys.... ;D
I'd weigh the pros and cons between the plain GT1080 and the Darbee. Then decide if your $$/performance is worth it.
This is my first HD curved 200 FOV screen, so I might not know what I am missing. For sure a laser projector for 5k a pop will make a difference
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
LOL. Ray will spend your money guys.... ????
You are right, last time Ray showed me something special looking like an OEM, I end up spending money with his preferred Australian vendor.
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Hey Luis,
The current price for a Darbee, from Amazon, which is where I bought mine, is $696 US and the older one is $679. This is without shipping.
Bear in mind that "old mate" FredK is selling his as well, so don't undercut him....haha, but if you are reasonable and put them on some other forums I don't think you'll have too much trouble shifting them and upgrading.
Good luck....
Frank
Quote from: Ridgenj on January 25, 2018, 03:23:05 PM
LOL. Ray will spend your money guys.... ????
You are right, last time Ray showed me something special looking like an OEM, I end up spending money with his preferred Australian vendor.
...just keeping the tradition alive. A friend of mine on this forum likes to spend my money as well. ;D
QuoteBear in mind that "old mate" FredK is selling his as well, so don't undercut him....haha, but if you are reasonable and put them on some other forums I don't think you'll have too much trouble shifting them and upgrading.
My old ones are sold....so get what the market will bear!
Fred K
Just to clear things up, Fred, I used "old mate" as a colloquial term and not referring to your age.
Hahaha....to be politically correct!
Frank
QuoteJust to clear things up, Fred, I used "old mate" as a colloquial term and not referring to your age.
Hahaha....to be politically correct!
Frank
Well...I just turned 70 this past week....so "old mate" actually suits me fine!
Fred K
I just completed my Fly Elise screen recalibration including some color adjustments. It all came out pretty well. I am satisfied.
The following are some pictures of the results. Please note that the color shading differences between the projectors are actually a lot better than what you see here....such is an artifact of my photography ability. So I post these simply as an illustration of the fidelity of the Darbee projectors and as an example of what can be achieved with "butt" projection. Color uniformity is not perfect, but a lot better than what you see, and it all looks much more brilliant in person.....you will have to trust me on that.
Fred K
Amazing... Looks beautiful, Butt Projection in my opinion looks the best.
Trev
Same here with the butt method. Far less complicated .
I prefer overlap, but I understand why some choose not to do that.
Just had to balance out the vote :)
2 votes for Overlap, without a doubt.
Nat
3 votes for the overlap...even if it kills me,
Frank
Used butt method for 5 years. Now on overlap.
:2cw:
Nick
Just spent all day finishing up the setup on my Optoma GT1080's.
Got the colours a lot better as well as the overlap, which is a lot better than before.
Couple of problems to note. When using Dynamic Mode, depending on your Brightness and Contrast settings, there is a very slow Automatic Gain Control in these projectors, which when you raise or lower a wing, there will be some slow changes to the image on the side projectors.
Also had a problem with heat and it stopped the colour wheel spinning. Also noticed another projector flickering occasionally, all due to heat, so the big fix from our local Bunnings Store:
......................Brian W.
Brian -
Make sure that you are running the projectors in "high altitude" mode. That simply serves to increase the fan speed in the projectors significantly. The downside is that they are more noisy, but that is the way you need to run them.
Fred K
Fred,
How good is the digital zoom on the darbee? I really wasn't a big fan of digital zoom when it first came out. Always liked optical zoom, manual or motorized.
I had to stop using the "Dynamic Mode". If it was brighter on the left side of the aircraft than the right side (Like flying a N/S heading during sunrise), the projectors would try and compensate, completely throwing overall image uniformity out the window.
4 votes for overlap, Optoma Darbee, Natvis screen plus Truview...priceless.
Dave
I'll probably get kicked off here for this but my .02, having built several sims and ALL having used projectors until the latest sim I have which is 4K TV's I can say this, i will never fly in a dark cockpit in the daylight on the sim again. Pitch black rooms, heat, spare bulbs, constant adjustments, gone. Sorry... I put 2ea 5000k LED bulbs in the sim to simulate daylight and it is awesome. No need to run backlighting all the time, no need for a dark room, no maintenance anymore, no more stubbed toes walking through a pitch black room, and best of all, and can see the VASI lights like im flying in real life. The night time is a real looking environment and not dull black with light bleed from the PJ's. Seeing your pics of dark cockpit and room and daylight sim time brought back the memories i'd soon forget. Don't understand how we do all this work to get realism then ruin it by flying at night in the daylight. LOL looking in the mirror here..... guilty myself.
Rob
Great points Rob. I can deal with the pain of all the projector drawbacks, for the immersiveness of the projectors.
I guess that's why we love this hobby, cos we all have different opinions and respect each others thoughts.
Frank
Quote from: 727737Nut on January 29, 2018, 04:30:06 PM
I'll probably get kicked off here for this but my .02, having built several sims and ALL having used projectors until the latest sim I have which is 4K TV's I can say this, i will never fly in a dark cockpit in the daylight on the sim again. Pitch black rooms, heat, spare bulbs, constant adjustments, gone. Sorry... I put 2ea 5000k LED bulbs in the sim to simulate daylight and it is awesome. No need to run backlighting all the time, no need for a dark room, no maintenance anymore, no more stubbed toes walking through a pitch black room, and best of all, and can see the VASI lights like im flying in real life. The night time is a real looking environment and not dull black with light bleed from the PJ's. Seeing your pics of dark cockpit and room and daylight sim time brought back the memories i'd soon forget. Don't understand how we do all this work to get realism then ruin it by flying at night in the daylight. LOL looking in the mirror here..... guilty myself.
Rob
Get three Barco or Christie projectors with 13,000 lumen and add some Ultra Short Throw lenses. ;D :o
Quote from: ifeliciano on January 29, 2018, 09:16:32 PM
Quote from: 727737Nut on January 29, 2018, 04:30:06 PM
I'll probably get kicked off here for this but my .02, having built several sims and ALL having used projectors until the latest sim I have which is 4K TV's I can say this, i will never fly in a dark cockpit in the daylight on the sim again. Pitch black rooms, heat, spare bulbs, constant adjustments, gone. Sorry... I put 2ea 5000k LED bulbs in the sim to simulate daylight and it is awesome. No need to run backlighting all the time, no need for a dark room, no maintenance anymore, no more stubbed toes walking through a pitch black room, and best of all, and can see the VASI lights like im flying in real life. The night time is a real looking environment and not dull black with light bleed from the PJ's. Seeing your pics of dark cockpit and room and daylight sim time brought back the memories i'd soon forget. Don't understand how we do all this work to get realism then ruin it by flying at night in the daylight. LOL looking in the mirror here..... guilty myself.
Rob
Get three Barco or Christie projectors with 13,000 lumen and add some Ultra Short Throw lenses. ;D :o
I had a Barco 808 on one of my sims. :)
Quote from: 727737Nut on January 30, 2018, 06:17:53 AM
I had a Barco 808 on one of my sims. :)
Rob, that was a monster projector.
Rob, you are absolutely right about ambient light in the cockpit. I am working with the FAA on one of their research sims and they are wanting controllable ambient light in the overhead for the cockpit to light it up during the day.
Once I figure out how to make that look ok with regards to mounting the lights in my 737 overhead, I will move in that direction also.
Jim. Here are a couple pics of mine with just 2 bulbs
Second pic
Did you mount them in the overhead speaker ports?
Quote from: navymustang on January 30, 2018, 09:11:33 AM
Did you mount them in the overhead speaker ports?
They are on the back wall just in front of CB pnls and just below roof trim
Another overlap vote here as well.
As a side note - I recently spent time in a sim that had 3 75" 4k tv setup for visuals. The clarity was superb, stunning actually. But something just wasnt quite right. I finally figured that even at 75", everything outside of the cockpit was disproportionate to the size of the sim. Terminal buildings where to small, vehicles where to small, even clouds where to small. So I think the preference of projectors over TV has something new to ponder over and the larger the sim the more it needs to considered.
Things being too small is a visual system set up issue that could include things such as zoom.
One should be able to set up very nice visuals with LCD displays that are scaled realistically.
Zoom is certainly a factor. Size of display also. And they are related. With flat screen LCD displays it is a matter of positioning the screens close enough to the cockpit. Perhaps that is actually better done with smaller sizes rather than a 70 inch.
Consider this.....with VR game goggles you are looking at a tiny screen positioned just two inches away, yet the spatial size perspective is just about perfect, for example when you are looking down at your feet. Not that I am suggesting that VR will work for a cockpit.
And there are certainly issues involved with getting a projected screen close enough as well, unless you resort to large factor zoom settings or going with a backlight projection setup.
Perhaps the best solution would be LCD display inserts in the cockpit windows.
Please excuse my babbling and dreaming here!
Fred K
Quote from: FredK on February 01, 2018, 02:10:15 PM
Perhaps the best solution would be LCD display inserts in the cockpit windows.
Fred K
Actually Fred, that doesn't work either... I have done that for my side views, and I actually am too close to focus on whats out the pilot side. I almost have to lean away when I look out the pilot side. The LCD's need to be at least a foot and a half out of the view to allow your eyes to focus..
Be like putting VR Contact lenses in.. Don't think it would work LOL.
I can attest that 5 60" screens are the perfect fit around an fds shell. Buildings are all fine and yes, zoom factor must be correct to match the desired fov. Each of my screens does a 50 degree slice for a total of 250 degree surround. Awesome views. Total immersion. Screens are big enough to fill your entire windsheilds with exception of screen on your direct side where if you get close to the window you can see top and bottom...but that happened to me with projectors as well. And bezels....well after a minute in the cockpit your brain forgets about them.
Of course the projector versus lcd debate has been had a thousand times here and Frank is correct, it is all up to one's own tastes and preferences and what is important to them. What I will say is that before making investments in the next gen projector one may want to at least try to visit a good LCD based visual setup themselves and weigh thenlros and cons of each before choosing. My door is always open to anyone wanting to see in person. Unfortunately pictures and videos never do justice to any of our setups so in person is the only way to judge. In turn, I would love to experience a NatVis quality setup someday.
Scott
Since most of us are not "desk top" flyers you may not be watching what is happening in that world. But MSI has an LCD panel that is curved and can be stacked horizontally around the desktop to give you a very good immersive feel. Great thing - the bezel is less than 1/8" wide. So as Scott said, you will forget they are even there in a moment. I hope they start making them in large sizes soon. Currently 35" seems to be the largest.