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CockpitBuilders.com - Main => Builders Discussions => Topic started by: rhysb on September 17, 2012, 02:01:06 pm

Title: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on September 17, 2012, 02:01:06 pm
Saw an impressive setup by Steve Cos that he was working on with 5 60" TV's for wrap around visuals and looked really good. I know the bezels pretty much disappear once your flying as the eye focuses elsewhere,

Then I saw this earlier:

http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/lg-55lm670t-full-hd-55-led-3d-tv-12848058-pdt.html?srcid=369&xtor=AL-1&cmpid=aff~e-tale~&istCompanyId=bec25c7e-cbcd-460d-81d5-a25372d2e3d7&istItemId=qqpxmxaq&istBid=t (http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/lg-55lm670t-full-hd-55-led-3d-tv-12848058-pdt.html?srcid=369&xtor=AL-1&cmpid=aff~e-tale~&istCompanyId=bec25c7e-cbcd-460d-81d5-a25372d2e3d7&istItemId=qqpxmxaq&istBid=t)

Now the fact that off the shelf TV's with that thin a Bezel all of a sudden this could be the way forward? I know the cost is extreme but then again the price of a short throw 1080p widescreen projector is not far off!

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Kennair on September 17, 2012, 02:28:08 pm
Its a great option in my opinion if you don't have the room to cope with projector views and you get full HD for the cost.  The only downside I see is that you really need 5 monitors in order to get the full wrap around effect whereas 3 projectors onto a curved screen will achieve the same wrap.  Those ultra narrow bezel LG's are great too.

Ken.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on September 17, 2012, 03:32:18 pm
Curved screen and projectors are amazing. I have seen some great setups and brilliant work getting to that level. Room size is an issue for sure.

On the TV's, nothing says you can't start with 3 and work up to 5? Just hard to slip them by your better half when they are 60"+ in size. I also worked on a B777 with 3 x 70" TV's. Talk about big screens!  Sharp has 90" now. Just imagine.....
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: 727737Nut on September 17, 2012, 03:55:43 pm
I have done both, TV's have way better picture and resolution and less headaches.  I have one on a motion sim now and it works great.
Rob
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: tennyson on September 17, 2012, 04:07:22 pm
If you look at the size of the windows of a 737, you will discover that the front two windows are almost the same size as a 32" monitor.

The side windows can be both covered by 46" monitors.

I have built my sim like this and have my two forward screens mounted and functional. You need to slant them slightly to achieve the correct result, but it is quite a decent alternative to projectors.

You need to spend good money on your screens, tho. I bought Samsung high def lcd smart TV's and keep the hertz rating down, you want 100khz models.

I've got mine hooked up to a 3960x pc running two GTX 680's and a display port dual head to go, the output is spectacular.

I haven't mounted my 46" models yet,  as I'm still working on my sidewalls, but I'll throw a few pics up when I get close to finished.

Oh, and yes, I went this way, because I didn't have the room and didn't want to be flying with one 55" screen our front.

Here's a few snaps from a video I took a while back:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffsfiles.org%2Fflightsimshotsv2%2Fimages%2F2012%2F09%2F17%2FCF2c.jpg&hash=01ed853ba4704d2f975f00a1358b5efd)

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffsfiles.org%2Fflightsimshotsv2%2Fimages%2F2012%2F09%2F17%2FjdnqT.jpg&hash=3795067ce80afa98911909d6c63abfb2)


Frank Cooper
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 17, 2012, 04:30:54 pm
I went through this decision a few weeks ago too. In my case, it was a matter of space that influenced my decision. I went ahead and purchased a Samsung UN50EH5000 LED-LCD and I am very pleased. The bezel is thin, not as thin as the one on the OP, but it seems that for now, the only TVs with such thin bezels are the 3D ones. If you are not going to use the 3D side of the TV, it's too much of a premium to pay just for a few millimeters thinner bezel. This also goes for the SmartTVs. Do you really need 5 TVs with built-in Netflix and Pandora? lol

Anyway, my goal is to eventually get four more Samsungs unless space becomes available and I might just go back to my 3 projectors plan I had in mind.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on September 17, 2012, 11:40:34 pm
QuoteI have built my sim like this and have my two forward screens mounted and functional. You need to slant them slightly to achieve the correct result, but it is quite a decent alternative to projectors.


Just to confirm that your using 2 smaller 32" screens for the forward view? I take it then that you put the middle bezel behind the window frame?

I love some of the top projector setups and still being one of the few that flies with a single projector setup they seem like nirvana, but Steve really opened my eyes with the TV setup. And especially with the LED tv market so competitive now the prices are coming way down and  200hz motion flow Sony 46" LED TV's under £500 it makes them cheaper than the projector option!

Steve would you think that 60" would be minimum size or could you get away with mid 40" range up to mid 50" as these are coming way down in price?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: tennyson on September 18, 2012, 02:50:59 am
I removed my lcd's from their cases and they are sitting in pre-made window frames.

I also note that you mentioned the 200hz model. I think you will find that you will have better performance from 100hz models, as i stated earlier.

I paid about 700 bucks Oz each, for my 32" Samsung's, but the 46" models now are almost cheaper than that, so the market is just right for lcd sales.



Frank Cooper
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on September 18, 2012, 03:18:20 am
If someone would buy my 3 Mitsubishi's from me at a reasonable price I would move to LCD screens in a heartbeat.   Now mind you I have a pretty nice curved screen setup with 210 degree wraparound right now but I would much rather have the sharpness of the LCDs and the ability to get rid of the warping software requirement.

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on September 18, 2012, 03:57:11 am
Frank, why 100hz? I understand for Tv that anything over 200hz is a complete waste of money as its just filtering the same thing over and over and digital tv is only broadcast in 50hz but why should you only use 100hz for FLightsim?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on September 18, 2012, 05:50:54 am
We have been using 55" on 737's as it fills the windshield nicely. On the 777's we went bigger because of the size of the windshields.

I think it is more about preference and budget.

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: tennyson on September 18, 2012, 06:51:12 am
I'm not 100% sure, but I talked to a lot of people in the know and they said that 100Hz was the best for computer display.

Apparently the higher rating (200Hz+) does not diplay as well, especially with movement.

I have been told this by more than one source.

Scott, you are the first person that I've heard with projectors to say that.
I've seen both systems and think that if you have the money and space and time, that long throw projectors on a single 270 degree screen are almost a perfect medium.

Having said that, the first time I fired up my 2 x 32" screens in the cockpit, I almost fell over (lucky I was sitting down). I wasn't quite expecting the immersion that it gave. The textures were so rich and the clarity of the scenery was truly breathtaking.Even tho I haven't got my two sidescreens in yet, I'm really looking forward to the day that I fire it all up and get that total cockpit immersion with the lcd's.



Frank Cooper
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Trevor Hale on September 18, 2012, 07:37:57 am
Hey Frank, I am curious, aren't you worried that the larger screens next to the smaller ones (For side views) won't look the same at the same resolution?  I am just curious how you will compensate for this.  (Or will you run the side views in an un-docked window to allow you to reposition them?)  I would think that the larger screen isn't going to just display "more scenery" its actually going to take the same view and stretch it isn't it?

Trev
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on September 18, 2012, 07:51:31 am
Quote from: Jetcos on September 18, 2012, 05:50:54 am
We have been using 55" on 737's as it fills the windshield nicely. On the 777's we went bigger because of the size of the windshields.

I think it is more about preference and budget.


Any idea on the A320? This would probably require larger as well I should think as the windows are bigger than the NG.

I see Samsung do a larger small bezel LED screen but a lot more expensive.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Kennair on September 18, 2012, 02:47:05 pm
Quote from: tennyson on September 17, 2012, 04:07:22 pm
You need to slant them slightly to achieve the correct result, but it is quite a decent alternative to projectors.

Frank Cooper


Frank, interesting you say you have your monitors slanted, doesn't this give an odd angular perspective?  I would have thought you'd keep them upright.  Also how do you find the front views with only two monitors rather than using the more common 3?  Is your flying effected with the bezels in the center.

Ken.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: tennyson on September 18, 2012, 03:44:47 pm
Ken,
To answer you first. I have two frames, similar to the size of the real window frame on the 737. The lcd's (minus their original plastic frame) are mounted in these frames.

The slant is needed to give the appearance of normal wondows for the cockpit, but strangely enough (and this is where buying good lcd's with non-reflective glass comes in) there is very little distortion.
In the real aircraft those windows are slanted at 45 degrees, but I slanted mine at about 20 degrees.

You gotta remember that those two screens are mounted low and about 1/3 of the screen won't be seen because of the way the windows are positioned. You'l have to trust me when I say, it's very realistic.

The centre separator is the same as the one in the real aircraft.

And Trevor, as long as I use the zoom feature on all of the screens, they will line up.
Obviously the zoom level will be different on the 46" screen than it is on the 32" screen.

You can do this by using two different sized lcd's, run two undocked windows from FSX and adjust the zoom. You will end up with the same perspective.

The only problem is, with undocked windows, the horizon tilts on each monitor, making it unuseable for the front two monitors, hence, use of the double head2go and making them one screen.

Pretty hard to explain here, but I have tried it with the family TV (lcd, 46") and my theory is right.


Frank Cooper

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: ETomlin on September 19, 2012, 05:37:55 pm
Frank


I'm super interested in your setup. I have a concern with you running two displays meeting in the middle; how does your setup not place the runway directly behind the center post and render it unviewable when lined up in the centerline landing?

If that is not a problem I can almost insure that I will go this route vs projection for all the reasons Scott mentions. Another issue I have is that with the Learjet, we have a huge wraparound windscreen, so it will be a challenge.

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: tennyson on September 20, 2012, 05:43:17 am
Eric, the two front screens are run with dual head2go, thus they present as one wide screen.

You use the bezel management software from Matrox to adjust for the centre staunchion. The view is exactly as if you were looking out the front two windows of the real 737.

The sidewalls, (the 46" lcd'sin the two side windows) each show left and right views.



Frank Cooper
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on September 20, 2012, 09:12:28 am
Quote from: tennyson on September 18, 2012, 03:44:47 pm

And Trevor, as long as I use the zoom feature on all of the screens, they will line up.
Obviously the zoom level will be different on the 46" screen than it is on the 32" screen.

You can do this by using two different sized lcd's, run two undocked windows from FSX and adjust the zoom. You will end up with the same perspective.

Frank Cooper


I don't think it is as simple as you say Frank. True, you may be able to adjust the zoom factor to line up the views, but what will happen as you start to move is that the transition of objects from screen to screen will not happen seamlessly. By that I mean that if you see a plane or other object on the edge of the front screen and it moves to a side screen (or you start moving), parts of it will disappear from view because of the different zoom factors. I have seen this with my projectors if the zoom factor is not identical for all views.

Now, whether that bothers you or not is another question that only you can answer. Just trying to help you manage your expectations. :)

Maurice 
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 11:11:49 am
Just wanted to show a couple of pictures of a B737 we did. 3 x Sony Bravia 55" TV's.

Still setting up but once we were done it looked great and flew very well.

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on September 20, 2012, 12:10:19 pm
Fantastic Steve!  Droollllllll......

Want to buy some Mitsubishi projectors at a good price??!!!   LOL  ;D

This is the way I am going someday if one of my beamers burnout....

Scott

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 01:38:14 pm
Doing another one soon with Panasonic 55"  with small bezels. I haven't taken them out of the boxes (wanted to! but you can never get everything back in the box like they pack them) so will get more pictures after assembly.

I just wish I had pictures with the 70" TV's and the 777.

Title: Re: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 20, 2012, 01:55:29 pm
Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 01:38:14 pm
Doing another one soon with Panasonic 55"  with small bezels. I haven't taken them out of the boxes (wanted to! but you can never get everything back in the box like they pack them) so will get more pictures after assembly.

I just wish I had pictures with the 70" TV's and the 777.


Steve, I went with 50" Samsungs (UN50EH5000) which have a very small bezel. You think 3 of these will be good enough to replicate the visuals similar to those you posted with 55"s? I know they are a bit smaller, but was just wondering.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Kennair on September 20, 2012, 02:09:35 pm
Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 01:38:14 pm
Doing another one soon with Panasonic 55"  with small bezels. I haven't taken them out of the boxes (wanted to! but you can never get everything back in the box like they pack them) so will get more pictures after assembly.

I just wish I had pictures with the 70" TV's and the 777.


Stop it Steve, you're giving me heart palpitations!

Just saw in my latest JB Hifi catalog they're advertising 80" LCD's!  A mere $11000 AUD.  Rack 3 of these up and drool!  :o

Ken.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 02:18:18 pm
Hi Ken, seeing TV adds for Sharp 90" TV's...imagine that installed!

50" and 55" are pretty close, with the small windows of the B737 that should work great.


Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 20, 2012, 02:23:10 pm
Actually Steve, I just checked and I have 4 more days to return the 50" and change it for the 60" model (UN60EH6000) for just $300 USD more! You think this would be the better move and by going with 60"s, I ensure better FOV and coverage once I get the other two 60"s?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 02:37:37 pm
60" are better, $300 difference? I would switch

(All the projection guys are probably rolling their eyes now  LOL)   ::)
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 20, 2012, 03:47:05 pm
Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 02:37:37 pm
60" are better, $300 difference? I would switch

(All the projection guys are probably rolling their eyes now  LOL)   ::)


Yup, I will make the switch tomorrow. BTW, at 60", what would be a good distance to have the TV behind your MIP?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 04:23:50 pm
From the front of the nose the front TV is about 12"-14" away. From the MIP they are almost 24" apart.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Kennair on September 20, 2012, 04:29:28 pm
Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 04:23:50 pm
From the front of the nose the front TV is about 12"-14" away. From the MIP they are almost 24" apart.


Steve, how do you find that viewing distance over time?  I mean you wouldn't normally sit that close to your TV and I was wondering the effect after flying for some time, perhaps hours.

Ken.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 20, 2012, 04:37:14 pm
Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 04:23:50 pm
From the front of the nose the front TV is about 12"-14" away. From the MIP they are almost 24" apart.


Thanks
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jetpilot on September 20, 2012, 05:26:01 pm
Hi Frank,
Is there a chance that you post a little video of your setting: I would really like to see how the front view looks like from the captain side.
I am considering to go with tvs instead of projectors.
Thank you
Roberto C
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 20, 2012, 05:33:18 pm
Steve, let me throw an "eephus pitch" and ask this... How about DLP TVs? Can these be used with flight sims?

For the price of the 60" Samsung LED-LCD, I can get this Mitsubishi 73" DLP:

http://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-WD-73C12-73-Inch-1080p-Cinema/dp/tech-data/B007TGKLXO/ref=de_a_smtd (http://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-WD-73C12-73-Inch-1080p-Cinema/dp/tech-data/B007TGKLXO/ref=de_a_smtd)

What you think? Any pros/cons of going with a DLP TV instead?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 05:44:41 pm
Not an expert on DLP TV's but did search around and found this explanation:

http://www.lcdtv.net/guide/lcd-vs-dlp (http://www.lcdtv.net/guide/lcd-vs-dlp)

I am not sure if DLP is the best choice, wonder if anyone is using DLP's now and can comment?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 20, 2012, 06:00:32 pm
Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 05:44:41 pm
Not an expert on DLP TV's but did search around and found this explanation:

http://www.lcdtv.net/guide/lcd-vs-dlp (http://www.lcdtv.net/guide/lcd-vs-dlp)

I am not sure if DLP is the best choice, wonder if anyone is using DLP's now and can comment?


Yup, when I was shopping around for a projector for my home cinema setup, I first tried a DLP projector by Optoma, and granted it was not the top model, I did experience some RBE (Rainbow Effect) with it and thus went with an Epson 8450 LCD projector instead.

I see this as the only real con against going with a DLP over an LED-LCD, especially with a flightsim, where you have so much rapid movement on screen.

I think I will head to BestBuy tomorrow and personally look at their DLP TVs and see if I experience any RBE with them. Like I said, I might have experienced RBE with the Optomo because it was what I believe a 4x color wheel and this was 2 years ago. Maybe these newer DLP TVs have faster color wheels and RBE won't be a factor.

Honestly, I think the best bang for the back would be that 73" DLP.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: ETomlin on September 20, 2012, 06:37:58 pm
Already thought about the projector TVs. The main issue is the viewing angle is very narrow compared to the LCD/LED screens.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 20, 2012, 06:43:55 pm
Quote from: ETomlin on September 20, 2012, 06:37:58 pm
Already thought about the projector TVs. The main issue is the viewing angle is very narrow compared to the LCD/LED screens.


hmmm Wouldn't the viewing angles be head on, if using three 73" DLP TVs? Obviously, the middle TV would be facing you and the two corner ones would be slightly angled which would also put them almost head on to your view?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: nicd on September 20, 2012, 07:51:35 pm
Interesting discussion!

A few years back I toyed with the concept of mounting back-projected screens onto the 737 frame so that each projected image appeared "on" the window surface, and within each physical window frame. Had some encouraging results with that but couldn't resolve the issue of how to present the central image properly (i.e. what you see looking through the front 2 windows). That is - with those two windows at around 40 degree angles to the view, the singular projected image was seriously warped inwards from the centre. It's like having a widescreen monitor and bending it in half around the centre pillar of the cockpit.

I wasn't aware then of being able to split the one virtual view over 2 displays (projected or TV) using the DH2GO. Would be keen to see pics/video of how this works for people who have tried it.

The cheapness and quality of TVs means this concept might be worth a revisit. However, for me I'm not a fan of the stand-off approach where TVs are mounted away from the cockpit and bezels are visible (even if they are small).

What I can envisage is having 5 TVs - each one mounted to the outside cockpit frame so that eachTV screen "becomes" the window glass, and the TV bezels are hidden behind the cockpit window frame elements as much as possible. Might be dreaming here, but if the right size TVs can fit each window space then it might work. Think the difficulties would be finding the right TV sizes, mounting so bezels are relatively hidden, and how to handle zooms for smooth perspective if different TVs are used.

Interested in anyone's thoughts or experience with this or similar...
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on September 20, 2012, 08:04:00 pm
Quote from: Kennair on September 20, 2012, 04:29:28 pm
Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 04:23:50 pm
From the front of the nose the front TV is about 12"-14" away. From the MIP they are almost 24" apart.


Steve, how do you find that viewing distance over time?  I mean you wouldn't normally sit that close to your TV and I was wondering the effect after flying for some time, perhaps hours.

Ken.


Ken,

On a flight you probably spend 70% of your time not looking out the window. I certainly do anyway :)
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: edward57 on September 20, 2012, 08:23:33 pm
I too have gone down the 3 TV route...

I use 3 X (cheap) 40" LCD TVs on Eye-Infinity 1920X1080 resolution presented as 1 large! window view but have found some issues. (with bezel adjustment 6188X1080)

Running FSX - Framerates!..  I have had to go to a monstorous! computer to get reasonable framerates, currently the specs are:
I7-990X (OC to 4.34GHz), 24GB DDR3, Vertex3 (sata3) 240GB SSD (1 each for System & FSX drive) and an ATI7970 3GB graphics card and still it jerks around busy scenery (FTX is really bad!) particuarly running REX Essentials.

Also setting up eye-infinity with TVs is a nightmare in itself as using the Display Port (as required) to HDMI is different than DVI-HDMI and the Display port gave you overscan on one TV so nothing lined up.  After months of trying it worked with hardware that ATI said it wouldn't work with..  DVI-HDMI cables X 2, and a PASSIVE! Display Port to VGA! adapter.. and the overscan problem was gone.

Now the TVs I used must be the worst in the world for setting up this type of sim as I have bezels 2" wide!..
So I am researching the projector options, possibly with 2 short throws and a 135' screen (don't have room for a full wrap around) then maybe I can recover the framerates - Athough reading what other people have done, maybe there are other issues at play here.

There is no way I could consider 5 TVs (even though the video card supports 6) as the death in framerates would make it un-flyable.

here is a video of my sim in action with the TVs.. ( I dont have windows yet..) but it will be enclosed eventually.
Hand Flown approach into St Maartens (FSX) in my 737-800 Simulator (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy7yaAOCo6g#) 
(jump to about the 6min mark for the landing.)
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Nat Crea on September 21, 2012, 03:13:43 am
Quote(All the projection guys are probably rolling their eyes now  LOL) 


Nah...rolling over in my grave! And you have seen my work first hand Steve...shame  ;D

Seriously...TV's?...Come on...

FDS B777 220FOV with Sol7 by Nat Crea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZxpsbMBisg#ws)

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 21, 2012, 03:29:36 am
Quote from: melnato on September 21, 2012, 03:13:43 am

Quote(All the projection guys are probably rolling their eyes now  LOL) 


Nah...rolling over in my grave! And you have seen my work first hand...shame  ;D

Seriously...TV's?...Come on...

FDS B777 220FOV with Sol7 by Nat Crea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZxpsbMBisg#ws)


Do you have a blog or website where one can see your build and how it's setup?

You know, you guys now have me on a bind on whether I should stick with TVs or simply go with projectors! hahaha Regardless, I will return my 50" HDTV today and put the money away until I make my mind on whether it will be TVs or projectors. lol
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jackpilot on September 21, 2012, 04:23:57 am
My grain of salt
I tend to agree with Rhys.
Except for the airports eyecandy/take-off and short final I am busy inside.
Nevertheless I was spoiled with some "far North" 180° view and loved it..lol
My 2¢:
1)Concentrate energy and budget on the inside until it is "finished and 100%flyable"
2) Then only spend your cash on a "visual on steroids".
I do all my building and testing with a one projector 8 feet front view which is quite satisfactory for the purpose.
I have seen the latest ultra thin bezel TVs and I think the results would be awsome as I flew with a 3TV setup at FDS some time ago and I was favorably impressed.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Boeing Skunk Works on September 21, 2012, 02:13:22 pm
I am probably going to use the TV method for the rebuild. I experimented with a 32" for the side view out the left side of the cockpit and I was most impressed with the view. This was about 10" from the side windows with the angles of the sidewalls, but it left a bit of blank space below the window frames. Not good if you're looking out and down. Other than that they would work fine.

A 42-47" would be much better for the look-down views as of course they cover more area. For the front views I haven't decided yet, but will probably stay with 32" monitors up close to the windscreen as they more than fill that area of opening.

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: ETomlin on September 23, 2012, 11:00:54 am
Quote from: melnato on September 21, 2012, 03:13:43 am
Quote(All the projection guys are probably rolling their eyes now  LOL) 


Nah...rolling over in my grave! And you have seen my work first hand Steve...shame  ;D

Seriously...TV's?...Come on...

FDS B777 220FOV with Sol7 by Nat Crea (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZxpsbMBisg#ws)



If projectors had near the same resolution and contrast, I'd say the tv route is nuts if price and room size are negated. However, tvs are superior in several ways in addition to these. Just ask Mauruce who has three projectors that are now discontinued and one is going bad. Replacing a bad tv might be far simpler. In addition, as much as I'd love a wraparound screen I think for the amount of time that you're looking outside flying jets that the tv route is a sound choice all things considered. The best thing for building these visual systems to me would be a flexible 92"+ LCD screen.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on September 23, 2012, 01:16:45 pm
Quote from: ETomlin on September 23, 2012, 11:00:54 am

Just ask Maurice who has three projectors that are now discontinued and one is going bad. Replacing a bad tv might be far simpler.



You've got that right Eric. Bad pixels on a TV screen are barely noticeable but when projected, they are quite magnified and depending on whether they are black or white, can be quite annoying. Once you start losing pixels on a projector, it goes bad very fast. I started with 3 bad pixels and a couple of weeks later, there are probably over a hundred and growing in numbers.

I still love the big wraparound view but if was to do it over, I would forego the full wraparound for better clarity and less hassles with installation, repairs or replacement if necessary. My 2 cents of course  :)

Like I mentioned above, I do think the monitors/TVs need to be the same size. You cannot compensate for a size difference with the zoom factor (see my reasons in earlier post)

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 07:48:20 am
Quote from: ETomlin on September 23, 2012, 11:00:54 am
In addition, as much as I'd love a wraparound screen I think for the amount of time that you're looking outside flying jets that the tv route is a sound choice all things considered.


The main reason to have a wraparound screen, is not for bragging rights or for looks. It's for peripheral vision when you need it the most when landing and also useful for looking for traffic, flying visual approaches, taxiing, takeoff roll, etc. To say that it's not needed because most of the flying is done by instruments is nonsense. If this was indeed the case, you know how much money Level-D sim operators would save by just slapping one large HDTV in their simulator and calling it a day? lol
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on September 24, 2012, 09:24:12 am
Quote from: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 07:48:20 am

The main reason to have a wraparound screen, is not for bragging rights or for looks. It's for peripheral vision when you need it the most when landing and also useful for looking for traffic, flying visual approaches, taxiing, takeoff roll, etc. To say that it's not needed because most of the flying is done by instruments is nonsense.


Well, I do have a wraparound screen and I could not disagree with you more. I don't know how many times I have landed or taken off somewhere and did not even see that there was a plane on the runway (not flying on VATSIM of course). I would have seen them with an LCD TV. So, clear vision is much more useful than peripheral vision safety wise as the many casualties on my landings would testify if they were still alive  :)

I will soon post a movie of 2 commercial pilots flying my sim on a short flight from Zurich to Geneva. I can say for sure that the only time they were even aware of the wraparound visuals were while taxiing. The rest of the time, they were looking down at their charts or doing cockpit preparations. Even on short final, they never looked to the sides; they were either staring at the instruments or looking straight ahead at the runway.

Wraparound visuals are strictly a luxury for home cockpits. Yes, they are very nice but it all depends on your real purpose for building a flight deck. If you are just or mostly doing VFR flights, wraparound definitely is the way to go but it's just eye candy for normal IFR airline operations. Depth perception on the other hand like they have in collimated displays would be so much more useful.

Having said that, I'm not trying to convince anyone one way or another. This is just what my experience has been and what I think now that I do have wraparound visuals. The anticipation was way better than my actual experience after I got past the initial WOW effect  :)

Maurice

Title: Re: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 10:47:10 am
Quote from: maurice on September 24, 2012, 09:24:12 am
Quote from: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 07:48:20 am

The main reason to have a wraparound screen, is not for bragging rights or for looks. It's for peripheral vision when you need it the most when landing and also useful for looking for traffic, flying visual approaches, taxiing, takeoff roll, etc. To say that it's not needed because most of the flying is done by instruments is nonsense.
I don't know how many times I have landed or taken off somewhere and did not even see that there was a plane on the runway (not flying on VATSIM of course). I would have seen them with an LCD TV. So, clear vision is much more useful than peripheral vision safety wise as the many casualties on my landings would testify if they were still alive  :)


Of course, if you are running projectors on 640x480 or even 800x600, going with a higher resolution LCD will make a world of difference in making out details such as small aircrafts on the runway while you are on approach or taking off. If you can have wraparound visuals using 1080p LCDs for at least a 180 degree view, then we arw talking. lol


Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on September 24, 2012, 10:59:51 am
If the wrap around is not as important and the fps is, why are we all trying to use the multiple undocked windows? With just one large window the fps are great in FSX with the projectors. Yes, LCD would likely still look better, but there has always been a debate over fps vs resolution and LCD vs Projectors. Too me, the fps is the most important because you can have a low or high resolution, but slow fps is just a better looking slide show with higher resolutions.

Maybe, the 3 projector folks could all switch back to one large view; especially, since the point is being made that not a lot of time is spent looking out the windows while in IFR. If that is the case, then one large faster view over the slower 3 undocked + background views would be the better choice.

Hey Maurice, the next time the real pilots visit, setup just one large view and see what they think? Not to make a point or side one way or the other, but just to see what they like or dislike about it. Next time I fly I will do the same. Actually, I was flying like that at first and had no real problems with it...really loved the 50-100fps everywhere.

John
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on September 24, 2012, 01:28:50 pm
Maurice is right and have to agree with him. I probably only spend 30% of the time on a flight looking out the window at the view and with the point on the visuals within the level-d sims again I would say less than 20% of the time I'm looking out the window!

Just speaking from experience :)

I still think multiple TV's is the way even though people like Scott and nat who are using the multiple computer and projector route make it look so good.

I also visited an office today that had smaller 27" monitors with no bezels (1mm) mounted together in a quartet showing one large image (4 TV's in a rectangle so effectively 1 tv made of 4 quarters. Make sense?) this is a great idea as you can use smaller TV's but then these will give a more effective 'curve' round the cockpit!
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 02:04:08 pm
LOL So now we should use 4 smaller TVs to make up the same size as that of 1 larger TV, ending up with more than 12+ monitors for a nice wide view?

Sometimes I think people just like to argue or contradict just for shits and giggles. LMAO :-)

If looking out the window makes up for less than 30% of our flying, why do we even try to make full size cockpits in the first place? Let's just slap a 19" LCD for landing and takeoff.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on September 24, 2012, 02:20:24 pm
Quote from: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 02:04:08 pm
LOL So now we should use 4 smaller TVs to make up the same size as that of 1 larger TV, ending up with more than 12+ monitors for a nice wide view?

Sometimes I think people just like to argue or contradict just for shits and giggles. LMAO :-)

If looking out the window makes up for less than 30% of our flying, why do we even try to make full size cockpits in the first place? Let's just slap a 19" LCD for landing and takeoff.


Efrain, you seem to be pretty abrasive in your comments.    Everyone is entitled to an opinion aren't they?   I have the full screen and I must say I am just as happy with three 22" lcds if not happier.   There are pluses and minus to every setup.   Look at Angus's setup with old style CRTs and wideview wraparound on 19" crts.   It is about as immersive as I have ever seen.     Anyway, just pointing out that many of us have experienced both or all of these possible setups and again, there are pluses and minuses to each setup.   Lets all just be informative about it and not rip into other people for sharing their thoughts one way or the other.

Scott
Title: Re: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 02:47:12 pm
Quote from: XOrionFE on September 24, 2012, 02:20:24 pm
Quote from: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 02:04:08 pm
LOL So now we should use 4 smaller TVs to make up the same size as that of 1 larger TV, ending up with more than 12+ monitors for a nice wide view?

Sometimes I think people just like to argue or contradict just for shits and giggles. LMAO :-)

If looking out the window makes up for less than 30% of our flying, why do we even try to make full size cockpits in the first place? Let's just slap a 19" LCD for landing and takeoff.


Efrain, you seem to be pretty abrasive in your comments.    Everyone is entitled to an opinion aren't they?   I have the full screen and I must say I am just as happy with three 22" lcds if not happier.   There are pluses and minus to every setup.   Look at Angus's setup with old style CRTs and wideview wraparound on 19" crts.   It is about as immersive as I have ever seen.     Anyway, just pointing out that many of us have experienced both or all of these possible setups and again, there are pluses and minuses to each setup.   Lets all just be informative about it and not rip into other people for sharing their thoughts one way or the other.

Scott


How am I being abrasive? Of course everyone is entitled to their opinions and I agree 1,000% with you. What I just can't comprehend is how can we say wide, wraparound displays aren't really necessary because we spend 30% of the time or less looking at our instruments.

It's all about immersion and the feeling of really being at the controls of a B737-800NG jetliner. Why do you think some people have linked controls, dual CDUs, dual seating, etc, when in reality, they fly 99% of time ALONE? Like I said, it's all about inmersion and for someone to say here it's not needed, it simply doesn't make sense and it's contradictory to what they have been doing all along.

As for thinking I'm being abrasive, that's just the way I am. I'm in no way trying to disrespect anyone but at the same time, I'm not here to win popularity points. I just say things the way I see them as I think we all are adults here and shouldn't get easily offended over disagreeing point of views.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: ETomlin on September 24, 2012, 05:09:58 pm
Efrain, the point I think myself, Scott, and Maurice are trying to make is that we have discovered first-hand that better quality visuals in the direction that you're looking most is more desirable than a huge (and admittedly awesome) wraparound visual that to some folks is more trouble than the effort to build, setup, and maintain considering the amount of VFR ops you fly in a sim. If I had a sailing sim or a C172, etc, then I would hands down go with a wraparound system. Would it be nice? Yes. Is it neccesary for myself? No.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jackpilot on September 24, 2012, 05:23:58 pm
Guys

I've flown Mau's undocked 180 visual (BTW not 800X600 at all!) Immersion and sense of motion unparalled in a fixed base sim. FSX,  High res and very smooth ...yes very smooth.

This being said, I flew big screen TV too. All good also, crisp but not fooling your senses as much as 3 proj do.

Just to say that "immersion" is also between your ears, a combo of sounds, instrumentation, ATC rushing instructions, feel/look of credible hardware, weather, and God knows what...not only visuals.

I'll stick to what I said above, better spend your money and energy on the inside of the sim to make  it as "real as it gets" before investing in a visual because on heavy jets the fun is inside!

Some of you my age will remember IFR training in sims without ANY visual NOR sounds... sweating on the steam gauges  as you had to get to cruising altitude ,transitioning to a bumpy approach, lining up the ILS, slowing down , fighting the glide, etc etc, The idea was to master scanning , reacting with small inputs, flying in front not behind the machine...

So today we are spoiled brats, building what would have been a dream then....
Maybe this is why I like my 8 feet single proj front view...for now :D

Jack
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 05:28:19 pm
Quote from: ETomlin on September 24, 2012, 05:09:58 pm
Efrain, the point I think myself, Scott, and Maurice are trying to make is that we have discovered first-hand that better quality visuals in the direction that you're looking most is more desirable than a huge (and admittedly awesome) wraparound visual that to some folks is more trouble than the effort to build, setup, and maintain considering the amount of VFR ops you fly in a sim. If I had a sailing sim or a C172, etc, then I would hands down go with a wraparound system. Would it be nice? Yes. Is it neccesary for myself? No.


See, now THAT makes complete sense! lol  ;) It's all about compromises and how each person uses the simulator. I am a good personal friend of Jose "Joe" Maldonado (Project 727) and have been to his home in Puerto Rico several times. Even helped him a few times with his Project 727 build and I can tell you that he is one of those that loves to FLY the aircraft and not just program a flight into the FMC and watch it from the sidelines. And this is on a real, 727 flightdeck with most instruments completely wired!

Personally, if I am spending so much money on building a full-size cockpit, I want to fly it, manually, as much as I can. Yea, it's awesome to fly by instruments and the sense of accomplishment is terrific when you can fly from point A to point B in complete IMC conditions and still be able to land that sucker, but I leave that to the big boys who do this for real. Me, I want to enjoy the view outside the cockpit as much as I can.

What I'm trying to say is just because we are simulating a very complex aircraft such as a B737NG, doesn't mean we have to fly it by instruments only. Doesn't mean that good, wraparound visuals should be limited to just gliders or single engine, GA planes.

Heck, this topic has been dragged along too long and we can agree to disagree till we are blue in the face!!! At the end of the day, we all can do whatever we please with our sims. LMAO =)
Title: Re: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on September 24, 2012, 06:04:48 pm
Quote from: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 10:47:10 am

Of course, if you are running projectors on 640x480 or even 800x600, going with a higher resolution LCD will make a world of difference in making out details such as small aircrafts on the runway while you are on approach or taking off. If you can have wraparound visuals using 1080p LCDs for at least a 180 degree view, then we arw talking. lol


My projectors actually run at 1280x800 and that is nowhere near enough resolution for a sharp image when using wide throw projectors. I used to have just one projector (not wide throw) on a much smaller flat screen and the resolution was quite good then I thought.

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on September 24, 2012, 06:24:42 pm
Quote from: blueskydriver on September 24, 2012, 10:59:51 am

Hey Maurice, the next time the real pilots visit, setup just one large view and see what they think? Not to make a point or side one way or the other, but just to see what they like or dislike about it. Next time I fly I will do the same. Actually, I was flying like that at first and had no real problems with it...really loved the 50-100fps everywhere.

John


I will do that John but I am 100% sure they will prefer the wraparound visuals even though they seldom look out (it's just more impressive).

In fact, the reason Angus brought the 2 pilots here is because he likes my visuals better that his and yet, I like his better than mine because I was shocked at the level of details I could see on his small screens. Angus does not care about the lack of details, he prefers the immersion factor which is undeniably better with a wraparound screen.

Like I said, there really is no right or wrong here & unless you can afford  CAE type visuals, you will have to compromise one way or another depending on your finances, space and/or whatever else is important to you.

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 07:58:53 pm
Quote from: maurice on September 24, 2012, 06:24:42 pm
Quote from: blueskydriver on September 24, 2012, 10:59:51 am

Hey Maurice, the next time the real pilots visit, setup just one large view and see what they think? Not to make a point or side one way or the other, but just to see what they like or dislike about it. Next time I fly I will do the same. Actually, I was flying like that at first and had no real problems with it...really loved the 50-100fps everywhere.

John


I will do that John but I am 100% sure they will prefer the wraparound visuals even though they seldom look out (it's just more impressive).

In fact, the reason Angus brought the 2 pilots here is because he likes my visuals better that his and yet, I like his better than mine because I was shocked at the level of details I could see on his small screens. Angus does not care about the lack of details, he prefers the immersion factor which is undeniably better with a wraparound screen.

Like I said, there really is no right or wrong here & unless you can afford  CAE type visuals, you will have to compromise one way or another depending on your finances, space and/or whatever else is important to you.

Maurice


Good post, Maurice! And I sure am glad you did not take offense to my prior post as someone seems to have, because I definitely did not mean any disrespect to you or anyone. I simply post what I think and don't have time to look up a thesaurus to make sure I say things eloquently or to sound nice. hahaha I guess 15 years of law enforcement will do that to anyone. Like I said, didn't mean any disrespect to anyone.

Since you have already ventured on the projector side of things, what's the highest we should aim for when setting up the screens? What I mean is, the top edge of the image, how high should it be from the top of the windshields, so that you don't see them when looking at them?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on September 25, 2012, 06:30:59 am
Quote from: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 07:58:53 pm

And I sure am glad you did not take offense to my prior post as someone seems to have,


No need to keep dragging it on there Efrain.   Maybe I am a little more sensitive to others feelings when I post and was merely pointing out that when you use words like "nonsense" and "lmao" and such in response to people's ideas it may come off wrong.   Eric didn't seem to mind your response and neither did Maurice so perhaps I shouldn't have spoken for them but if you responded to me the way you did I would not care for it much.    Take it how you want.....I won't say anything more and don't want to be in a flame war with you.   You are right, we are all adults so lets move on.....peace.

This is a good thread....

I still want 5 50 inch monitors so if anyone loves projection that much I have a great deal on 3 lightly used Mitsubishi Short throw DLPs.....just sayin... ;D

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on September 25, 2012, 07:39:15 am
Quote from: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 07:58:53 pm

Since you have already ventured on the projector side of things, what's the highest we should aim for when setting up the screens? What I mean is, the top edge of the image, how high should it be from the top of the windshields, so that you don't see them when looking at them?


That's a hard question to answer because it very much depends on the type of projector and how far the screen is from the windows. All I can tell you is that you will always be able to see the top or bottom of the screen if you lean over and look up or down. If you just swing your head, you don't see the edges & obviously, the farther the screen is, the higher you have to go so as not to see the top edge. In my case here, the screen is just over 4 ft from the left window and the top projected image is 78" from the floor

But don't lose sleep over this :-). I was a bit disappointed at first because I could still see 'the room' if I really tried. But trust me, before long, you will not care anymore

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Boeing Skunk Works on September 25, 2012, 09:36:00 am
Quote from: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 05:28:19 pm



See, now THAT makes complete sense! lol  ;) It's all about compromises and how each person uses the simulator. I am a good personal friend of Jose "Joe" Maldonado (Project 727) and have been to his home in Puerto Rico several times. Even helped him a few times with his Project 727 build and I can tell you that he is one of those that loves to FLY the aircraft and not just program a flight into the FMC and watch it from the sidelines. And this is on a real, 727 flightdeck with most instruments completely wired!
[/quote]

Where did you get the idea that Joe is using instruments in the MIP? His instruments are represented on monitors same as mine. His SP-50 wasn't even wired last time I spoke to him.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: nicd on September 26, 2012, 03:09:02 am
Immersion.. ah the golden egg of sim building. I'm with Jack on this.. it's very much about what's between your ears.. the human brain has an amazing ability to "meet" the simulation somewhere in the middle and create reality. When that happens, the user is immersed. And to get there, yes good visuals are important, but equally so are sounds, vibrations, air movement, beeps, tactile things, even smells (no.. not those smells!), and keeping the outside real world "out".

Have had 1000s (literally) of people fly my sim, including many pilots. Nothing better than seeing them get immersed and lost in the environment.. sweat on the brow, white knuckles on the yoke, wide-open eyes and even swaying into the turns (and it's a fixed base sim!). I encourage all builders to get people in their sim and see what works.. what immerses people / what doesn't. When you've built something yourself it's difficult to have an objective perspective of how you're going immersion wise.

Somebody a posts back mentioned just using 1 wide view and not undocked windows. Yeah FSX does that smooth and nice, but as far as I can remember the perspective is all wrong. The one continuous view continues at a 180 degree flat plane to the eyepoint into infinity. Wrap that view around the eyepoint in any way and the world goes crazy.. objects that should be left and right in the far distance become up close and warped. Wish it wasn't true but.

Personally I think good visuals are an important part of why I want to fly a sim. If I really was all heads down like commercial pilots in the real sims then yeah - that wouldn't be the case. But then why build a sim?.. may as well build a sophisticated desktop sim - more like a procedural trainer. But it's easy to get absorbed in FMCs and high-end procedures. We found that with our world flight crews and so brought in the rule "all flight below 10,000 feet is hand-flown". This keeps the pilot engaged at a greater level and keeps hand flying skills sharp. And good visuals are then both important and appreciated, not just something you look up and see when you disengage the autobrakes! Mind you, this is with  a well trained crew of 2.. it's not so easy to keep your hand off the AP engage when flying all on your own!
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: ETomlin on September 26, 2012, 04:47:52 am
Nice perspective Nic. As always, great to see you around.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: sluyt050 on September 26, 2012, 06:34:43 am
Inspired by what I've read so far, I would go for the best of both worlds (quality TV and immersive projection) for my sim. That means a 210 deg. wrap around screen composed of 3 home-made flat 90" (diagonal) projection screens. The outer screens are angled 110 deg. with respect to the centre screen. They are "powered" by 3 Optoma HD87 home cinema full-HD 1080p projectors. Besides the standard lens (Throw Ratio = 1.54- 1.93), an optional short throw lens (TR = 0.77) is available!!!
Ref. http://www.optomaeurope.com/projectordetailshe.aspx?PTypedb=High%20Definition%20Home%20Cinema&PC=HD87 (http://www.optomaeurope.com/projectordetailshe.aspx?PTypedb=High%20Definition%20Home%20Cinema&PC=HD87)
These animals are not cheap but neither is a 90" full HD LED TV.

So I like to keep it relatively simple: no different sizes TV's, no bezels, just 1 scenery PC, no warping needed (so no vertical resolution loss) and just 3 x 70 deg. "undocked" views (FSX - Prepar3D 2.0....).

I tested this setup with 3 x 27" 1920x1080 (scenery only) displays (FSX, PMDG 737NGX, AS2012) and for me it was satifying (besides the hot ears after a while). Frame rates at this resolution are still a bit low sometimes but that should improve with Intel Haswell and once Prepar3D 2.0 is there.

As an alternative I consider to start with 3 (cheaper) BenQ MW851UST 1280x800 projectors (Throw Ratio = 0.36!) and go for the higher resolution when the prices come down. So for the time being, TV's are not my first choice.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: phil744 on September 26, 2012, 05:04:39 pm
heheeh could you imagine using these? http://www.eyevis.de/index.php?article_id=200&clang=1 (http://www.eyevis.de/index.php?article_id=200&clang=1)
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on September 26, 2012, 11:03:52 pm
Phil,

That's exactly what I saw and referred too in the earlier post, looks awesome doesn't it! You should be able to create quite a cool curve too!
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: MLeavy737 on September 28, 2012, 12:49:57 pm
Hi all,
  Well I'm finally coming back around again into building after a short break.  I had my sim check and I always take a few weeks and do nothing else but CBT's and review for the check-ride.  All turned out great and as usual I leave the sim building wondering why I felt like I didn't know anything and wasn't ready when I went in.

Anyhow,  I was thinking after I read these posts about visual systems and had to laugh.  I just flew a checkride in a brand new CAE Electric motion state of the art visual system sim and I barely remember what any of the scenery looks like.  First off we started the checkride in 500 RVR, then anytime we were flying we were on top of a low level layer of clouds. Any landing made when we actually landed and didn't go around, the weather was 600 RVR. Point is we didn't see any scenery except for a short time for a few maneuvers.

I guess my opinion on visual systems is that is really depends on what you the builder consider important in your sim and how you fly it.  Sounds a bit obvious I know however I think what would help is if you ask yourself what kind of pilot you are? Do you enjoy real world procedures? do you get a kick out of flying as precise as you can?  Where's you mind when your flying? Is it on the procedures and techniques or is it on the pretty visuals outside?  I do know for a fact that if we all had a 6+ million dollar CAE visual setup with their scenery there would be builders here who would would not be satisfied! Lol it's just the way we are!

Anyhow setup wise I must say I was very impressed with Scott's (XOrionFE) visual setup! I really think the seamless wrap around system is the way to go over seeing a bunch of borders on TV's that wrap around the pit. regardless of resolution. To me seeing those borders would just kill it.  Would feel like in standing in a Walmart TV section picking out my next home TV :)  also it's easier to pretend you have a $6+ mill setup with projectors.  Just put the RVR down to 500 or so and fly around.  Will look just like a CAE setup.. Believe me!

Good luck everyone!

Mike L

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: sluyt050 on September 28, 2012, 01:49:41 pm
Quote from: MLeavy737 on September 28, 2012, 12:49:57 pm
.... I really think the seamless wrap around system is the way to go over seeing a bunch of borders on TV's that wrap around the pit. regardless of resolution. ....... Just put the RVR down to 500 or so and fly around. Good luck everyone!

Mike L


I fully agree. No matter how bad the visibility is, on TV's the bezels stay clear for sure.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jackpilot on September 28, 2012, 05:13:18 pm
Mike, I'm with you on that.
Periph vision is important because if you have it you do not notice it (proof that it is OK)
With a 120° you feel someting is missing and it is annoying and distracting.
Hi definition seems  less important and more eyecandy, (especially over the top.)
Just to say that  180° is the way to go, wether TV or Proj.
HD may not be a real necessity if $$$$
And with a ¼ mile vis. fluidity improves considerably  :D

Just talking about trade-offs if you cant have it all :laugh:
Jack
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Joe Lavery on September 28, 2012, 10:54:20 pm
I think this forum is great for getting different viewpoints on any aviation related subject. For me personally the visuals are important, I love the approach to one of these highly detailed airports; where all sorts of things are going on around you. But I fully accept and respect that this is not important to everyone.

Incidentally just adding some more fuel to the fire. Have you all seen the new Samsung range of HD TVs, they don't have a border at all....  ;)  But they are expensive at the moment.  :-\

Joe
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on September 29, 2012, 03:45:51 am
Quote from: sluyt050 on September 26, 2012, 06:34:43 am
Inspired by what I've read so far, I would go for the best of both worlds (quality TV and immersive projection) for my sim. That means a 210 deg. wrap around screen composed of 3 home-made flat 90" (diagonal) projection screens. The outer screens are angled 110 deg. with respect to the centre screen.


This is an idea that we talked about in the past which I still want to try.   I am not convinced that the screens need to be curved.   As long as the three flat surfaces can make it around nose and the projectors chosen can fill them properly I think the view will still be great and believable.  And as mentioned by Maurice in the past, if the warping neccesity is removed then the images should be a lot better with the warping software only really used to fine tune the edges.  This may in fact represent the best of both worlds right now as Edward pointed out.    I think I need to try this once and for all so I can see for my own eyes how this would look.   Sounds like a trip to home depot is in order to pickup some sheet goods :-).

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: tennyson on September 29, 2012, 04:57:39 am
Joe,
That's what I'm running in my cockpit.
I have two Samsung Smart TV's @1920 x 1080p running off a GTX680 via a matrox Dual Head2 go. My side windows will be 46" LCD's @1920 x 1080p as well.

I'm still building, but have the forward two screens operational at the moment.
Will post a few screeny's soon.

Frank Cooper
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: sluyt050 on September 29, 2012, 01:42:21 pm
Quote from: XOrionFE on September 29, 2012, 03:45:51 am
I think I need to try this once and for all so I can see for my own eyes how this would look.
Scott


Good to read Scott that you are thinking in the same direction. I'm anxiously awaiting your experience and opinion with a flat screen approach. I plan to start building second half of 2013.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: ETomlin on October 01, 2012, 04:07:37 am
A 5-screen wrap around of bezel-less hd TVs at 65" apiece. That's what I want. What I get is entirely up to what's affordable when I upgrade from my current single projector setup. ;-)
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Garys on October 01, 2012, 05:09:22 am
Now that this topic has died down a bit, I think its been humerous to sit back and watch all the arguments for TV's. 5 years ago, before short throw projectors and image warping software, seamless wrap around visuals were the "Mount Everest" of cockpit building. Every builder would have given anything to have what we have available at our disposal today.

Also dont forget, Level D simulators are for training pilots for aircraft type ratings, simulating failures and aircraft ops in adverse weather conditions. Lots of head down stuff. In the real world pilots look out the window alot. A great video that was posted here awhile ago should be a reminder of that.

Gary

http://youtu.be/nYDba1UsgHc (http://youtu.be/nYDba1UsgHc)
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on October 01, 2012, 07:12:48 am
Awesome Video Gary.   I never saw that before.

And I agree that the Mount Everest was wraparound projection which many of us have.  The problem is that we get greedy and now want wraparound projection with the HD quality of LCDs.    That would be the new Utopia.   Either via projectors or bezeless large format LCDs.    I think having had the projection wrap around for over a year now I just would love not to have to deal with the warping (hence LCDs) and I would like the contrast and clearity that LCDs have.  If I could have those to things out of projectors I would be in heaven.  But alas....it aint going to happen any time soon I am afraid.  At least not at a reasonable price for the home builder.

Again, nice video, thanks for sharing it.

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: MLeavy737 on October 01, 2012, 10:06:49 am
Sweet video :)  i just got one of those GoPro HD cameras for riding motocross a few weeks ago.. I  think i'm gonna have to take it with me to work!!

Mike L
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: fsaviator on October 01, 2012, 11:14:23 am
Quote from: MLeavy737 on October 01, 2012, 10:06:49 am

Sweey video :)  i just got one of those GoPro HD cameras for riding motocross a few weeks ago.. I  think i'm gonna have to take it with me to work!!

Mike L


Mike, does that mean we might look forward to some great NG cockpit videos?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: MLeavy737 on October 01, 2012, 11:50:09 am
Well see Warren, have to see what kind of trouble that could get me into lol. Not sure who that was in the video however i know most airlines outside the USA are a bit more relaxed with stuff like that.

Mike L
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on October 01, 2012, 01:28:44 pm
Quote from: MLeavy737 on October 01, 2012, 11:50:09 am
Well see Warren, have to see what kind of trouble that could get me into lol. Not sure who that was in the video however i know most airlines outside the USA are a bit more relaxed with stuff like that.

Mike L


Europe is just as stringent mike, I know it's against company policy for those I have worked for and speaking to an easyjet pilot the other day one of their pilots was kindly asked to take down a load of videos from YouTube before clearing out his locker!
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: fsaviator on October 01, 2012, 01:50:54 pm
Quote from: rhysb on October 01, 2012, 01:28:44 pm
Quote from: MLeavy737 on October 01, 2012, 11:50:09 am
Well see Warren, have to see what kind of trouble that could get me into lol. Not sure who that was in the video however i know most airlines outside the USA are a bit more relaxed with stuff like that.

Mike L


...one of their pilots was kindly asked to take down a load of videos from YouTube before clearing out his locker!


Well we definitely don't want that to happen.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: MLeavy737 on October 01, 2012, 02:06:32 pm
Well ya'll will just have to come over and fly with me in my sim someday then instead.  Will be just like the real thing anyhow :):)

Mike L
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: tennyson on October 01, 2012, 02:11:29 pm
Quote from: Garys on October 01, 2012, 05:09:22 am
Tv's are neanderthalic.

Gary



So, all of the people who use TV's for their visuals are neanderthals? Or the inanimate TV units are neanderthals?



Frank Cooper
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Garys on October 01, 2012, 04:32:10 pm
You've certainly taken what I wrote out of context. I dont know how long you have been on the building scene Frank but many of us here remember the trials and tribulations of those experimenting with seamless projection setups and the reasons for doing so. And for the record, I meant Tv's in there current large and bulky form are still primitive. Judging by the comments, I believe your the only one who didnt get that.

Gary
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: fordgt40 on October 02, 2012, 12:17:45 am
Quote from: Garys on October 01, 2012, 05:09:22 am
A great video that was posted here awhile ago should be a reminder of that.

Gary

http://youtu.be/nYDba1UsgHc (http://youtu.be/nYDba1UsgHc)


Gary

Those visuals were good enough for me - were they generated by TV or projection?  :)

David
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Garys on October 02, 2012, 12:20:23 am
Quote from: XOrionFE on October 01, 2012, 07:12:48 am
Awesome Video Gary.   I never saw that before.

And I agree that the Mount Everest was wraparound projection which many of us have.  The problem is that we get greedy and now want wraparound projection with the HD quality of LCDs.    That would be the new Utopia.   Either via projectors or bezeless large format LCDs.    I think having had the projection wrap around for over a year now I just would love not to have to deal with the warping (hence LCDs) and I would like the contrast and clearity that LCDs have.  If I could have those to things out of projectors I would be in heaven.  But alas....it aint going to happen any time soon I am afraid.  At least not at a reasonable price for the home builder.

Again, nice video, thanks for sharing it.

Scott


No Problem.

I think the loss of clearity of our projectors currently is due to trying to project an image across a surface area that really should be covered by 5 projectors and not 3. Adding the extra 2 projectors would enable us to move the projectors closer to the screen, decreasing individual pixel size therefore increasing picture quality.

Gary
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Garys on October 02, 2012, 12:22:45 am
Quote from: fordgt40 on October 02, 2012, 12:17:45 am
Quote from: Garys on October 01, 2012, 05:09:22 am
A great video that was posted here awhile ago should be a reminder of that.

Gary

http://youtu.be/nYDba1UsgHc (http://youtu.be/nYDba1UsgHc)


Gary

Those visuals were good enough for me - were they generated by TV or projection?  :)

David


Thats virtual reality Dave. We will have that someday  :D

Gary
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Trevor Hale on October 02, 2012, 03:16:45 am
That video freaks me out.  I cant believe how such little movements on that side stick make a big difference on the aircraft position.  Great video.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: nicd on October 03, 2012, 03:47:13 am
Quote from: Garys on October 02, 2012, 12:20:23 am
I think the loss of clearity of our projectors currently is due to trying to project an image across a surface area that really should be covered by 5 projectors and not 3. Adding the extra 2 projectors would enable us to move the projectors closer to the screen, decreasing individual pixel size therefore increasing picture quality.
Gary


Precisely!  working on it :)
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: tennyson on October 04, 2012, 02:51:17 pm
I see that a good few people are worried about the size of the bezel and opting for the more expensive units with the smaller bezels.

It is also an option to remove the screen completely from the bezel. They are just intact flat panels and can be removed quite easily.
Of course, there are considerations for some, about warranty being voided...

They work just as well without the added plastic case and for builders who have constructed elaborate screen set-ups, a frame to house 3 or 4 screens without bezels would be a breeeze.

Just a thought...


Frank
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: ETomlin on October 06, 2012, 04:57:47 pm
Thanks Frank. Great ideas.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: ETomlin on October 07, 2012, 07:21:35 pm
Okay, a few questions. I understand that the TH2Go typically just expands the forward view when used normally, but the way most builders use them is to have the center screen showing forward then the left/forward left and the right display as right/forward right. Do I have this right?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on October 08, 2012, 05:27:46 am
Quote from: ETomlin on October 07, 2012, 07:21:35 pm
Okay, a few questions. I understand that the TH2Go typically just expands the forward view when used normally, but the way most builders use them is to have the center screen showing forward then the left/forward left and the right display as right/forward right. Do I have this right?


Not exactly Eric. Normally the forward views do not show you the right & left sides. So all the views are actually expanded using the zoom factor and the side cameras angles are adjusted to match the expanded views so that you end up with true peripheral vision of 180+ degrees depending on your settings. Clear as mud, right? :)

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: ETomlin on October 08, 2012, 06:00:34 am
I think that's what I might have been saying/thinking but I'm not sure. Hmmm...let me think on it.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: nicd on October 08, 2012, 06:23:37 pm
It's black art this stuff!  :)

I haven't tried Maurice's method so have no idea if one method is better than the other. Perhaps FSX provides better options in this regard?

The original 3-window method in FS9 was to use left-forward view, forward view, and right-forward view - with the left-forward view and right-forward view screen surfaces angled in at 45 degrees (to the forward view in the centre). Camera angles are not adjusted with these. This generally gives you proper perspective for what you can see out to the left and right.

This is the brain-ache bit... with this method you are actually seeing a combination of forward and side vision to the left and right. So, with the left-forward view for example, that view is a combination of 50% of the extended forward view and 50% of the extended left view (hence its name). So that's why, when you angle the screen/monitor/TV that is showing the left-forward view in at 45 degrees, the wrap-around perspective looks right.

To induce further brain injury, this can be optionally expanded by adding the LEFT view and RIGHT view to the ends of the wrap around - both at 90 degrees to the forward view (i.e. the centre screen/monitor/TV). This also gives proper perspective, but right through 270 degrees.
    _
/     \
|       |      (a rough diagram!)

I imagine that with curved screens and warping/blending the fundamental maths of this approach would be the same.

Just another way of tackling it .. hope that doesn't muddy the waters too much further!  ;D

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on October 08, 2012, 07:01:17 pm
What really puzzles me Nick is why you would even consider 5 projectors when 3 is all you need to get full wraparound visuals. Or maybe you don't intend to use projectors. In that case that makes more sense but you had better have a big budget for computers to handle all these views if you do not want to see a slide show.

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: nicd on October 08, 2012, 07:22:16 pm
Yeah, 3 is "all you need", but with 3 projectors doing 270 degrees the pixelation and general quality are just not that great. That's why I agree with Gary's point above that 5 projectors would go a long way to addressing that issue.

Can you drive 5 screens successfully on one PC? .. don't know yet, but we'll see! Certainly not with FSX, but maybe with FS9. With extensive tweaking/experimenting I managed a stable 35 fps on a dual core with 5 views and 3 outputs, so I think it's worth a shot.

So what the heck... I'm going to die trying, not wondering :).  If I succeed I'll report back, if not I'll fly rubber dog s**t out of Hong Kong lol.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on October 08, 2012, 07:51:19 pm
Quote from: nicd on October 08, 2012, 07:22:16 pm
Yeah, 3 is "all you need", but with 3 projectors doing 270 degrees the pixelation and general quality are just not that great. 


Then the real question is why do you think you need to have 270 degrees? Do you really need to see what's behind you? But don't answer that question...you've obviously blown your last bit of sanity, so I don't expect to hear a rational explanation  ;D

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: nicd on October 09, 2012, 02:36:10 am
Anybody who decides to build a home cockpit and then attempts it is not rational. Being a freakin nutter is a prerequisite :)

I don't need 270 degrees, I just want it. I do a lot of visual flying in the sim and hand-flying with accuracy is a specialty I work on. Plus, I'm used to looking behind me in real life flying .. judging downwind, base turn etc etc. So in the sim I don't want to look behind me for the threshold and see a black void or a wall. It's an important part of flying immersion for me.

Now.. where did I put that medication ....
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on October 09, 2012, 07:16:32 am
Let's face it Nick, you started this whole mess (multiple projectors) and you will never be happy until you take it to its logical conclusion, i.e. a full motion CAE type simulator. :) After all, 270 degrees is just not enough, you need to be able to see all way up & down and maybe part of the wing as well :)
But hey, maybe it's just jealousy talking and I just don't want to hear about anyone having something so much better than what I have ;D

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: fsaviator on October 09, 2012, 09:34:46 am
Quote from: Maurice on October 08, 2012, 07:51:19 pm

Then the real question is why do you think you need to have 270 degrees? Do you really need to see what's behind you? But don't answer that question...you've obviously blown your last bit of sanity, so I don't expect to hear a rational explanation  ;D

Maurice


How else can you look back and see if the engines are turning? ;D

Seriously though...  I am in this process right now...  I have spent the weekend working on my visuals so I can get the projectors and screen mounted before I pack the room with the sim.  I forgot how much I forgot about this process
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on October 09, 2012, 04:33:53 pm
Now, this makes me think...just get another curved screen, 3 more projectors, another TH2Go, and a good FSX computer to run the behind you images. Right now, all I would need is the screen and uh...the room, but that might be possible, if I move out all the computers and racks. Then again, you guys would hate me and Maurice would likely fly down too kill me!!!

Oooohhhh! If only I had the money I would get Scott's projectors since his are the same as mine and that means I'd have 6 matching projectors... Uhhhhhh...okay, my Oxy intake might be a little higher then normal lately, so don't take me serious...uhhhhh, well if I had the money...

Nick, you're right...I am a "freakin nutter" and proud!

John
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Joe Lavery on October 11, 2012, 04:35:08 am
John, you have to stop smoking that stuff you know it's not good for you.... ;)
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on November 26, 2012, 05:02:21 pm
Beginning to think 3 50" or 55" HDTVs might be the way to go for me.  Space wise the projection is just not going to work well. 

I have a smaller version downstairs with three 40" LEDs on a custom mount for driving and GA simulation and I like it.

Might be selling off the PJs I have and start TV shopping
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on November 26, 2012, 06:04:00 pm
iPilot B737 in Dubai

3 x 55" Panasonic LED TV's
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on November 26, 2012, 06:28:21 pm
Steve that looks awesome!  Such a tease!

How's the feel from the seat?  Pretty good?

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on November 27, 2012, 07:30:49 am
Hi John,

It looks good, you have a full view and very crisp.

But having flown our devices with full curved screens (Nat set it up) and proper visuals to flying with 3  (or even 5) TV's it is a tough call.

I seems to be all about space and budget.


Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Nat Crea on November 28, 2012, 02:05:32 am
Steve!

Hopefully I can convince you once and for all in KL!  ;D

Nat
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on November 28, 2012, 04:39:56 am
Looking forward to it Nat.

Heading to Brisbane to see a 2 projector set-up for one of our B737's this week. Wondering how that will look? Will try and get pictures and fly it.

2 projectors....hmmmmm

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on December 03, 2012, 03:56:05 am
Well over the past day or two I have been working hard on my rebuild of my cockpit.    I will post some pictures and a thread about it soon but in light of this thread I have also been playing around with my projectors, FSX/Wideview, and the new X-Plane 10 64 bit which just came out.    I am fortunate to have options and with my current 3 computer visuals setup I have been testing both FSX and X-Plane to try to find the best fit.    I was disappointed to find that my warping software (Fly Elise Immersive Desktop Lite) was not 64 bit compatible and was told by Nikola that I had to purchase the Pro version in order to support 64 bit.   Well, I felt that if I was going to spend the money I would go back to using Nthusim instead as it was always more stable to me with my graphics and so I downloaded demo copies of the standard single projector version for my left and right displays and reloaded my old license of the multi-projector license for my center screen but only using one channel.  The results with X-Plane 10 64 bit were stunning to say the least.   With 64 bit I am able to crank up the rendering higher taking full advantage of my 16 gig of memory in each PC (you can only use 4 gig max in FSX...).

Anyway, I liked it so much I bit the bullet and bought the two extra licenses of Nthusim and setup the initial warping (no edge blending, just butting).   With my projectors running at 1600x1080 each and my rendering settings in X-Plane cranked up I believe I reached my Utopia.   Ease of setup and running of three computers networked, great resolution for my projectors, excellent frame rates, and stability.    I made a couple videos last night flying around but they came out crappy because I was holding the iphone camera while recording and was too close to the windshield.   I then made a quick video flying around Vancouver with the camera mounted.  No fancy procedures and in fact I had no guages running in SIm-A because I am waiting for 64 bit support in XPUIPC but here is the quick video starting with a touch n go at dusk followed by a return to the airport in the dark for another landing.   I will try to make some more videos of the setup time permitting tonight.

http://youtu.be/mR2kdyz3w8Q (http://youtu.be/mR2kdyz3w8Q)

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on December 03, 2012, 04:41:21 am
Dammit Scott, there you go again setting the bar even higher :)

Looks awesome.  How much work to get the ND/PFD's working again?  Or do you have to wait for XUIPC 64 to be released?

I've been TV shopping.  Torn between sizes still, 55", 60" or 65".  Plyed around with P3D on my triple 40" setup.  Looks good but having problems dialing in the undocked views left and right to match the horizon and angle of the center monitor.  Can almost get the right angle in the camera view setting, but horizon is off a bit.  Tried playing with the eye height in the center to match it up, but ran out of time.

Heck if I switched to Xplane10, which I really like, I would eventually need 5 computers for the 5 TV's, or do something goofy like 1 for the front expanded view across three, then separate PC's for the two sides with one display each.  Don't think that would look right.

Good job once agian!
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Flying_Fox on December 03, 2012, 06:14:11 am
Scott, you did it again! Excellent smoothness.

However, in order not to overcomplicate everything  ;), I will stay with FSX so far until I have my sim "completed" at least by Maurice's standards  ;)  Then I will think.  :angel:

How do you rate XPlane sceneries/visuals at the settings levels that you have achieved - compared to, say,  ORBX sceneries?

Thanks
Nick
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Kennair on December 03, 2012, 09:05:46 am
Another excellent XP10 demo Scott.  I've just started with the 64bit version myself and can confirm the same higher res smoothness.  I've also just purchased 3 x 42" 1080p LCD's for the highest res visuals.  Although not as immersive as wrap around projectors, they'll certainly do me fine and I had to settle for 42" as my sim room isn't capable of holding any bigger.  Unfortunately I don't have 3 PC's to run separate views so will have to make do with a stretched view in XP for the moment.

Would love to know your render settings in XP10-64 also Scott?

Ken.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: fsaviator on December 03, 2012, 01:19:05 pm
Very nice Scott.

So...  is that stock XP10 scenery for Vancouver?  I was stunned by the detail, even at night, of the runway, the trees, and the airport off to the right.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on December 03, 2012, 01:22:32 pm
God I love the night environment in xplane 10 just wish I could get the scenery I have for FSX!
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: fordgt40 on December 03, 2012, 01:36:30 pm
Rhys

Fully agree, I tried X-Plane and loved it but for the ground scenery. So went back to FSX, sadly :)

David
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on December 03, 2012, 02:20:26 pm
Thanks guys.   The scenery is not default.  It is part of "Inside Passage" from Scenery4xp.com.   They also make Canadian Rockies and Final Frontier.  I bought all 3 for $54.    They also make a number of larger single airports.   

It is all excellent scenery.    In my opinion Orbx in FSX sets the bar for daytime scenery but some of this in X-Plane  can come close.    I do own a lot of Orbx which I am happy to fly in my GA sim.   What I really like probably the most from X-Plane is nightime flying and airport environments.   I dont feel even Orbx stacks up in this case with the lighting effects that X-Plane has by default.

I think though to be interested in X-Plane you have to set aside some of the scenery in favor of the stability, ease of setup, speed, and newer technology that X-Plane has to offer.  We must hope that over time scenery will catch up and from what I have seen over the past 6 months more is being added all the time.   I am awaiting Northern California from Realscenery to come out an cant wait so I can use it while flying on Pilot Edge.


More videos to come....

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on December 05, 2012, 12:44:57 pm
Scott,

Your video got me testing the new 64bit version and im really impressed on the new performance. HDR is now perfect as before it did take a huge drain on my system!

I just cant get over how good the night lighting is with HDR on!

Rhys B
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on December 05, 2012, 01:03:54 pm
Check out some of the scenery at x-aviation.   Good stuff.   

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on December 05, 2012, 03:05:00 pm
Considering starting with three 60" Panasonic Plasma TVs now

http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-P60U50. (http://shop.panasonic.com/shop/model/TC-P60U50.) They've been as low as $699 lately.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: sagrada737 on December 05, 2012, 04:30:37 pm
Is anyone using the Toshiba 55L6200U55" thin bezel monitor?  Here is a link to some specs:

http://www.crutchfield.com/p_05255L6200/Toshiba-55L6200U.html?tp=35945 (http://www.crutchfield.com/p_05255L6200/Toshiba-55L6200U.html?tp=35945)

At a price point of $1,700 it is not the cheapest monitor solution on the market, but I'm very intrigued by the ultra-thin bezel on this particular monitor.  It seems like it might be a good outside display solution for an FSX TH2G 3-monitor setup.  Any comments on this?

Mike
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on December 05, 2012, 04:34:04 pm
$1429 at amazon, free ship.....

Seems a lot for a thinner bezel though.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on December 05, 2012, 04:54:24 pm
Quote from: jskibo on December 05, 2012, 04:34:04 pm
$1429 at amazon, free ship.....

Seems a lot for a thinner bezel though.


Not thinner but rather no bezel at all. Pretty amazing stuff.

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HarryZ on December 14, 2012, 05:42:38 am
It's always a tough decision on what direction to go with home sims.  Pros and cons with monitors vs projectors/curved screens.

This past summer I upgraded my single projector/flat wall view with a curved 135 degree/3 projector view and TH2G using Warpalizer. Now I learn that the Nvidia 600 series GPUs can by pass the TH2G so I will likely go that route and sell my Nvidia 570 GPU and TH2G.

I was at the I/ITSEC military simulation conference in Orlando last week and saw what high resolution projection can give.  CAE had a display with a C130 taxiing in snow at CYUL ...unbelievable!!  Then when you spend about $ 10,000 for a projector that's what you can expect :-)))

Of course I forgot my camera in the hotel room and didn't take any pics :-(((

On a happy note, I flew 3 very basic sim set-ups and was told I was the only person who knew what they were doing. :-)))

Harry
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Sam Llorca on December 15, 2012, 06:09:19 am
Hi Harry, I was there too and I was impressed with all the hardware and projection systems, I flew both Boeing sims on the trailers, awesome! I'm thinking upgrading my projectors with Barco ones. Also had a great time with Linda Lack from Simphonics sound. Great people!
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HarryZ on December 15, 2012, 10:46:13 am
Hi Sam....I was there on Tuesday and up to that point the show was quite quiet. Apparently the US military people decided a couple of weeks before the show they would not be attending in force like previous years. I saw more Canadian military people roaming around!

Briefly looked at the Simphonics sound display...VERY high end.

Let's just say that most devices there were beyond my price range.

Harry

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Sam Llorca on December 15, 2012, 11:13:50 am
I agree with you, very expensive, I was there monday from 2 to 6pm, like you said, lots of military specially from Braziland Canada, but I was like a kid on a candy store, super happy, had a lot of fun, I totally forgot to send you my phone number to get together, sorry about that,  take care Harry nice talking to you.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 13, 2013, 05:32:39 pm
Guess I'm all in on TV's now. Just ordered my other two Panasonic P60U50 Plasmas.  Now figuring out how to mount these things is going to be fun
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 14, 2013, 03:55:46 am
Well,

I bit the bullet.  My projectors are down and TVs are up.  I went with Samsung 60" LEDs.  I have always been a Samsung fan and have one of their 60" plasmas for a year now in my living room which I really enjoy.    I went with LED for the sim however mainly for two reasons.  One, plasmas get really hot where LEDs stay very cool.    Second, the LEDs consume around half the power of plasmas.   I don't find any issues with the motion so far and the blacks at night are awesome which I was a little concerned about but really probably wouldn't notice unless I put side by side to the plasma.

Anyway, the real thing is that I am in love with the clarity and contrast which is just night and day difference from the projectors.  Yes I see bezels and it doesn't fully wrap around but who cares, the visuals and simplicity and a whole bunch of other things make this the best setup I believe.   I will not cry watching my projectors ship to their buyer (already have them sold).

I made stands in one day.  I went to Home Depot and bought 2 ten foot 2" pieces of black pipe which where threaded on each end.  Had them cut in half so I had 4 5ft pieces.   Then I bought 2 inch pipe flanges and in the lumber section you can buy 1" thick round pine boards disks.  I mounted the pipe flanges to these with bolts so they become the bases, offset the flange from center so the tv weight is distributed toward the larger part of the wood base.   To hold TVs on the pipes I mounted a 12"x30" piece of 3/4" plywood using two 2" inch U bolts.  This allows the whole board to be adjust infinitely up or down on the post.   To the board I attached a 60" tv wall mount that includes ability to easily hang tv and remove, tilt, and slight rotate for adjustment.   Got them at best buy. Made by Sanus VMPL50A-B1

This only took about 3 hours to make these mounts and stands and cost me what one premade would have cost.   They work perfect and are very sturdy.   Make larger base if you want even more safety.  Mine are pretty hard to get to in front of the nose so I am not worried about kids running into them or anything.

Anyway. I am flying and love it!  Like a whole new sim.

  ;D

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: sagrada737 on January 14, 2013, 04:07:31 am
Good news Scott!!!  From the tone of your post, it seems that this is a very pleasing result.  The added clarity and detail of the LED monitors makes one consider the benefit of projection displays - excluding the seamless wrap around effect that projection provides of course.

Anyway, congratulations on once again leading the way for the rest of us.  Post a video of the setup soon.

Mike
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: N737AG on January 14, 2013, 04:38:21 am
Hi Scott

It would be absolutely awesome if you could do your Innsbruck approach video again with your new visuals for real good comparison.

Axel
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: goof2092 on January 14, 2013, 04:46:19 am
Any pics Scott?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 14, 2013, 04:55:17 am
Quote from: N737AG on January 14, 2013, 04:38:21 am
Hi Scott

It would be absolutely awesome if you could do your Innsbruck approach video again with your new visuals for real good comparison.

Axel


I could but it wouldn't be the same since I run X-plane now but as soon as I have the TQ finished and get another pilot over I will shoot a video.

In the meantime I will post a little video I just took showing setup later this morning.  Have to get to work :-)

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on January 14, 2013, 05:36:02 am
Sounds ace Scott, looking forward to seeing this result! Did you use the latest samsungs with the tiny bezel? We have four of them in our boardroom making one big screen, problem is I can't sneak them out in my pocket!!
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 14, 2013, 07:21:34 am
Here is a video guys:

Part 1
http://youtu.be/BBeYKoxpETg (http://youtu.be/BBeYKoxpETg)

Part 2
http://youtu.be/nJv6XPCyYRQ (http://youtu.be/nJv6XPCyYRQ)

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 14, 2013, 07:25:12 am
Awesome videos.  60"s are perfect, glad I opted for that over the 55".

Really ingenious stands you made there.  Samsung shows your LED's without the base at 57lbs, my Plasmas are 70lbs so looks like that will work well.  May find a way to tie the bottom inot the base for added safety in my location.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on January 14, 2013, 09:09:26 am
I LOVE the clarity. This beats projection by far in my opinion even with the bezels and not a full wraparound. As I said before, if I were to start again, that is the way I would go and that is after having lived with full wraparound for 2 years. Clarity with a smaller field beats fuzziness with wraparound.

I'm sure some will still disagree but until you've lived with the fuzziness of projectors for a while, you may never be able to fully understand how bothersome it becomes. And you can add to that the fact you will never have to replace projector bulbs or deal with dead projector pixels which multiply like rabbits after one shows up.

Verdict is totally clear for me....TVs all the way :)

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on January 14, 2013, 09:43:17 am
Hi Scott,

Sent you some emails... Say, can you watch the second youtube video from an ipad? I can watch the part 1, but part 2 gives a playback error. Anyone with an ipad, would you verify this for me?

I must say, you make it very hard not to switch over to LCD TV screens. Here are some questions for you:

How much did each unit cost by the way?
Which model of Samsung did you get?
How did you hook them up, HDMI or DVI?
This is 3 computers using Xplane, with each one having an LCD hooked to it right?
Is this still with NTHUSIM or just through Xplane for any warping?
Have you tried it through FSX yet, if not, will you do so just to get a look at it?

Okay, no more questions...  Otherwise, just email me back.

John
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 14, 2013, 09:47:14 am
I'll try it soon on Prepar3d if Scott doesn't get to it.

Not sure what Scott paid, but my Panasonic 60's were $810 delivered.

I'll use a DVI to HDMI like I use on the smaller pit triple 40's
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on January 14, 2013, 09:53:19 am
John,

I watched both videos on my Ipad,

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on January 14, 2013, 10:00:45 am
John,

Not speaking for Scott but there would be no point using Nthusim with TVs. Why would you need to warp anything? With flat screens and projectors, Nthusim would still be useful to line up the edges but with TVs and any size bezel, I don't see how it would help. I could be wrong of course but I don't think so :)

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: fsaviator on January 14, 2013, 10:29:57 am
Very nice Scott.  The clarity is amazing.  that is the only downfall with my projectors.

I really need to find a reason to come out to Illinois and visit you and your sim.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on January 14, 2013, 10:32:33 am
Hi Maurice,

Yeah, I was thinking NTHUSIM was not needed either, but started thinking about edges and/or blending. So, I figure I'd ask Scott just to find out...

About Bezels, has anyone thought about removing them yet? I know some people have done it for the MIP monitors...I have, but why or why not on the LCD Displays? Also, Scott mentioned 5 LCD screens, so will that be 5 computers or 3 with 2 of them performing in a dual head or dual card mode?

Seeing Scott's new setup is going to cause a lot of rethinking and redoing. Maybe not you Maurice or myself, but since seeing is believeing...Scott nailed it.

John
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jackpilot on January 14, 2013, 10:36:28 am
probably a dumb question:
TVs= more pixels= performance hit?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 14, 2013, 10:38:07 am
Warranty is probably the best reason for not pulling bezels off. 

On my 19" one the mount was integral to the case, when I pulled the bezels there was no way to mount them.  Leaving the back on would be fine pressed against the MIP, but on a stand, they would fall out of the frame.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 14, 2013, 10:40:08 am
Quote from: jackpilot on January 14, 2013, 10:36:28 am
probably a dumb question:
TVs= more pixels= performance hit?


1920 x 1080 each, same hit as hi res projectors. Screen span is 5769 x 1080. I've done it with three 23 inch screens and three 40" screens now on the small pit.  I5 runs them fine over clocked.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: sagrada737 on January 14, 2013, 11:49:12 am
Scott's recent change to LED displays and his video demonstration really seals the deal for me.  I have been going back and forth in my mind over the pros/cons of projection vs. 3-monitors, and I have come to the conclusion that it is hard to have both worlds - that is, wrap-around and seamless display and the clarity that monitors provide (without spending a small fortune for high-end projectors and ultra high-contrast screens).

Based on Scott's results, I will go the LED monitor route with my TH2G setup.

By the way...  Here is a short video of my current setup using three 27" LCD monitors running TH2G.  Not as fancy as Scott's setup, since I don't have my sim built, but you get the idea of a smaller (low budget) monitor setup.  This video was primarily done to show Scott the performance on my FSX computer with Sim-Avionics 7237NG - testing MegaSceneryEarth IL 2.0.

FSX MegaSceneryEarth IL 2.0 70fps (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pepURWbuDCQ#ws)

I'm glad to have made the decision to go with LED monitors.  The latest Samsung SilverStar series comes with a 3/8" bezel (albeit with a slightly higher price for the same 60").

Mike
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on January 14, 2013, 11:58:00 am
Mike,

With 70fps, I am assuming this is one front view spread over 3 monitors with THG as opposed to 3 undocked views, correct?
Anyway, I am sure you've made the right decision to forget about projectors.

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: sagrada737 on January 14, 2013, 01:16:19 pm
Hello Maurice,

That's right...   It is a single Desktop to display FSX at 70fps.  I understand that un-docked views would significantly impact the frame rate.  It is interesting consideration however, to determine the benefit (if any) of using un-docked views with a 3-monitor setup.  Although it might offer significant improvement in reducing distortion on the Left and Right monitors.

In this regard, what is best - lower frame rate and less distortion, or higher frame rate with the side-views slightly distorted?

It seems to me that most of the attention is given to the Center display, but I might be incorrect in this assessment.

Mike
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: rhysb on January 14, 2013, 01:35:55 pm
I'm glad I started this post now as seeing those videos just makes so much sense to me to use led monitors and xplane! I think FSX in the day and xplane at night!

Regards the bezels I didn't really notice them in the video so sure I wouldn't in reality. Also the samsungs we bought for work were the latest ones with a 3mm bezel.

Rhys b
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 14, 2013, 02:01:39 pm
Quote from: blueskydriver on January 14, 2013, 09:43:17 am

I must say, you make it very hard not to switch over to LCD TV screens. Here are some questions for you:

How much did each unit cost by the way?
Which model of Samsung did you get?
How did you hook them up, HDMI or DVI?
This is 3 computers using Xplane, with each one having an LCD hooked to it right?
Is this still with NTHUSIM or just through Xplane for any warping?
Have you tried it through FSX yet, if not, will you do so just to get a look at it?

Okay, no more questions...  Otherwise, just email me back.

John


The model I got is this one and was on sale at Best Buy

http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs/UN60EH6003FXZA? (http://www.samsung.com/us/video/tvs/UN60EH6003FXZA?)

And correct, 3 computers with X-Plane 10.  Each computer has a EVGA GTX 560Ti card with a DVI to HDMI cable connecting to a TV.

No Nthusim

Haven tried with FSX/Wideview yet but will.

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on January 14, 2013, 02:05:36 pm
Quote from: sagrada737 on January 14, 2013, 01:16:19 pm
Hello Maurice,


In this regard, what is best - lower frame rate and less distortion, or higher frame rate with the side-views slightly distorted?

It seems to me that most of the attention is given to the Center display, but I might be incorrect in this assessment.

Mike


With 3 projectors, running a single view is horrible when you look at the sides and everything is stretched ridiculously. But with 3 TVs and a much smaller field of view, the distortion on the side screens should be much less than with projectors. I would think that one view would be the way to go because of the significant benefit of much higher frame rates.

The good news is that you can easily try both and see which one you like best :)

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: sagrada737 on January 14, 2013, 02:32:35 pm
Thanks for the comments Maurice.  I think I can see now why the side distortion would be less in a single view mode 3-monitor setup vs. a projection setup.  So it seems it is a trade-off as to side distortion vs. the frame rate hit for improved overall display quality. 

Like you stated, it would be fairly easy to test.  But when I try to setup for un-docked views using my TH2G, the display doesn't allow moving the newly created L/R views - they are always straight ahead.  Perhaps this is not possible to accomplish this using the TH2G, or there is something else I don't understand about un-docking views at this point.  Any advice?

Mike

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 14, 2013, 02:39:52 pm
Quote from: sagrada737 on January 14, 2013, 02:32:35 pm
Thanks for the comments Maurice.  I think I can see now why the side distortion would be less in a single view mode 3-monitor setup vs. a projection setup.  So it seems it is a trade-off as to side distortion vs. the frame rate hit for improved overall display quality. 

Like you stated, it would be fairly easy to test.  But when I try to setup for un-docked views using my TH2G, the display doesn't allow moving the newly created L/R views - they are always straight ahead.  Perhaps this is not possible to accomplish this using the TH2G, or there is something else I don't understand about un-docking views at this point.  Any advice?

Mike


Mike, you'll need to set that up in the file after you create the windows. On that other site, mycockpit, someone made an excel file called window maker that does all the calls for you and gives you a copy and paste file to use.

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on January 14, 2013, 03:06:13 pm
Mike,

You may want to look at a guide that I wrote a while back. You can find it here:
http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=1340.msg9988#msg9988 (http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=1340.msg9988#msg9988)

Ivar Hestnes also wrote one and it may also be available in this forum.

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: nicd on January 15, 2013, 12:58:58 am
Cool. But I'm not running out to buy TVs just yet  :).

I'm in the latter stages of development with a 5 panel continuous screen, 5 projector solution (ordinary XGA short throws) that gets rid of the blurries and fiuzzies, is clear, bright and sharp. No pixelation issues, no sim-shell shadows, no warping needed, no TH2GO, no surround/eyefinity, really good framerates, and on one PC.

The best bits for me is that it's impossible to see the bottom and top of the visuals from the pilot seats through any of the windows (4:3 rather than 16:9 makes a big difference here), and there are no bezels or joins (definite deal breakers for me personally). Plus its approx.240 degrees wraparound so no masking of rear windows needed. Current TV technology just can't match these features for a similar price (that may change in the future I guess.)

I'll post up some info and pics down the track as I get things finalised and stable. But thought I should post some news on progress before everyone throws out their projectors!  ;) 

cheers
Nic

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on January 15, 2013, 02:04:48 am
Now this I want to know more about!

John
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 15, 2013, 02:27:14 am
Quote from: nicd on January 15, 2013, 12:58:58 am
Cool. But I'm not running out to buy TVs just yet  :).

I'm in the latter stages of development with a 5 panel continuous screen, 5 projector solution (ordinary XGA short throws) that gets rid of the blurries and fiuzzies, is clear, bright and sharp. No pixelation issues, no sim-shell shadows, no warping needed, no TH2GO, no surround/eyefinity, really good framerates, and on one PC.

The best bits for me is that it's impossible to see the bottom and top of the visuals from the pilot seats through any of the windows (4:3 rather than 16:9 makes a big difference here), and there are no bezels or joins (definite deal breakers for me personally). Plus its approx.240 degrees wraparound so no masking of rear windows needed. Current TV technology just can't match these features for a similar price (that may change in the future I guess.)

I'll post up some info and pics down the track as I get things finalised and stable. But thought I should post some news on progress before everyone throws out their projectors!  ;) 

cheers
Nic


This sounds really nice Nic but until I see it I ain't gonna believe it.    :) No projector within a comparible price to TVs can come close to matching a TV in clarity and contrast.   Second, no single PCs I am aware of can run that many screens at once with a true wraparound view like you describe.   You will bring FSX to its knees.   Unless of course you have invented some new simulation or made a major breakthrough in FSX graphics.    If what you say is possible then yes, I want to see it as well and I am sure everyone will.   But alas....seeing is believing so be sure to post a video like mine with a walk through the setup.    If what you say is true it will be legendary.

Looking forward to hearing (seeing) more about this.   

Best regards,
Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on January 15, 2013, 05:37:16 am
I totally agree with Scott. The only current way to get acceptable frame rates on one PC with 5 windows might be with FS9, no traffic, fair weather and default airports. If you can pull it off with FSX Nick, you will be inducted in the cockpit builders hall of fame :). Just trying to perfectly line up 5 projectors without using any warping software would be real feat on its own.

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 15, 2013, 06:15:03 am
I guess 5 (4:3) projectors we are talking a span of 8000 x 1200? 

Seems like even Super Mario or Pong would have trouble with FPS at that size?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on January 15, 2013, 06:41:05 am
Thinking in 4:3 mode here, it might be in the range of 4000 x 600 if he drops to 800 x 600, but in that range it looks horrible. Okay, not horrible, but not great.

Still this line of thining makes me think of what happens when you drop the amount of bit colors? Normally, we all use 16 million colors or 32 bit color, but what happens in medium 16 bit color range? For example, I just dropped my lcd monitor in front of me to 16 bit and the colors were there; however, it got a dimmer. So, I could compensate by increasing or adjusting the brightness and contrast of the monitor itself in it's on screen settings.

Therefore, a theory would be to see what happens if we did the same with the projectors? If the bit rate of the color data is lowered, the amount of graphics the CPU has to crunch is lowered, and assuming we can compensate/adjust the brightness/contrast in the projectors, we should be able to match what is seen in the higher bit level.

I just finished flying from KMSP to KSLC, but I am going to fire the FSX computer backup and turn the projectors back on just to see what it'll look like. Although, I will not change the resolutions, it'll only be the color bit depth...

John
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: fsaviator on January 15, 2013, 07:33:48 am
My three projectors are Benq XGA short throws, running through a TH2Go at 3072x768.

I can confirm that the picture is NOT the sharpest I would like.  Not bad and I can live with it without any issues, but NOTHING like what you will get from LED TVs.  System has nothing to do with it.  It's pixels.  The problem with XGA is that there are 2,400K pixels on my screen displaying the same picture that a higher resolution would use more pixels to display.  We're not even discussing the clarity of a TV or monitor versus a projected image on a background, affected by lighting conditions and overlap.

I'm interested to see what Nick comes up with.

Warren
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on January 15, 2013, 07:52:46 am
Hi Warren, and everyone else.

I broke off into a new thread to discuss the color bit depth here:

http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=3063.msg23723#msg23723 (http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=3063.msg23723#msg23723)

Let this thread continue on discussing about the TV's, but there is a connection. What happens if the LCD screens are set to use 16 bit depth in the display settings of the OS, as well as FSX, TH2GO (if used) and the FSX file that is used to load the 3 windowed views (if used)?

John
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 15, 2013, 08:27:50 am
Still trying to wrap my head around how you drive 5 displays well off a single PC.  I supposed three video cards, not spanning your desktop via surround might work, but in a CPU heavy title like FSX, I would think you would be at a lower resolution to get acceptable frame rate.

The edge butting across five screens I would think wouldn't be more than a bit tedious to get aligned, but once done, unless someone bumps a projector or moves a screen, would be a one time event.

I would guess he's doing this with five flat screen, so no warping would have to be done, don't know though as the word continuous is used.

I might be in the minority here, but I like moving forward in resolution, I.e. 1920 x 1080 times three, versus giving up definition to get a further wrap around.  I mean its cool and all from what I have experienced, but in sim flying, just like my real world flying, my eyes are on my gauges and forward view 90% of the time.  Only in cruise, or those silling eights on a pylon, chandelles and lazy eights, am I looking out the side windows a lot.   Heck I spent five straight hours in the clouds from Salina to Muskegon in the Mooney (real world) on the panel the whole time.  I'd be more willing to add another PC or two and move to five 60" plasma's to get the wrap versus dropping color pallet or resolution to achieve it at this point.

Just my 2Kopeks
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Jetcos on January 15, 2013, 09:18:12 am
3 x 70" Sharp LED TV's at our friends at iPilot in Zurich. A320 cruising.

One with the outside view above the sim for people to watch.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 15, 2013, 09:35:23 am
Looks really nice Steve.....Of course now my 60" ones look small :(


Just to confirm, this is one spanned window at 5760 x 1080 right?  Not three separate windows?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: fsaviator on January 15, 2013, 09:51:32 am
I have four massive plasmas in my office at work...  they have to be at least 100 inches...  they go to our old VTC suite we just replaced with 120" ers (I think)....  They are easily six foot wide and at least four foot high each.

I wonder if I can borrow them for a few years.  I was going to use them for computer monitors. :o
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 15, 2013, 10:37:36 am
Quote from: fsaviator on January 15, 2013, 09:51:32 am
I have four massive plasmas in my office at work...  they have to be at least 100 inches...  they go to our old VTC suite we just replaced with 120" ers (I think)....  They are easily six foot wide and at least four foot high each.

I wonder if I can borrow them for a few years.  I was going to use them for computer monitors. :o


I used a 50" plasma for many years as my primary PC monitor....

Now its 3 40" LEDs on my main PC.  Though I spend far more time on the iPad than the PC these days
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: nicd on January 15, 2013, 12:50:56 pm
I know I'm teasing a bit but I will put up further detail once I'm happy and confident with the setup. There's still some things to iron out (projector alignment, corners, various FS vagaries etc.) and that will take time. If it flops I'll be the first to admit it, but from the major testing we did a few days ago the early results were very encouraging.

You guys are totally right about FSX, which is why I'm not using it. I wouldn't even be psycho enough to try this with FSX. Still FS9 for me .. I have it tweaked to an inch of it's life. 4 years ago I had 3072 x 768 running on TH2GO, mid-high quality scenery and dual-core with 20-30 stable FPS. So on the i7 it's a new world!  Mind you - I would have loved to have gone Xplane-10 with this (your videos have so convinced me Scott!), but just couldn't budget 5 PCs (that is an option though I suppose).

I'm on 32 bit colour, high-end scenery, ASE weather, sliders close to max, but no AI traffic unless I'm on VATSIM.

As we've discussed before - the thing with projectors, especially at 1024x768, is that the further away the image is from your eyepoint, the worse the pixelation, blurries etc. are. So I've turned that on it's head and the screen is placed similar to where you guys are placing your TVs. At 4:3 there are no top and bottom borders visible.

And yep its 5 flat panels but also a continuous screen - and a superb quality screen which makes all the difference ;). At 5 x 1024 close in I don't feel like I'm giving up much at all - especially given the gains from this method. I agree that a high-res LED TV will always give a better image than a projector .. but the difference between the two can be much reduced by not projecting over a medium or long throw.

5 displays off one PC .. 2 x Nvidia GTX 650s does it. You can't use Nvidia surround with 5 though (let's hope nvidia upgrade that).  The thing is, in this crazy sim building world, it's sometimes important to push the limits, ignore the specs, ignore the norms and try radical things. Sometimes things work that are not "supposed" to :)

Ultimately there is no right or wrong way. TVs, projectors etc etc are all a matter of what you want, your budget,  and the compromises you are or are not prepared to make. So it's a very subjective thing and comes down to personal choice in the end. It's cool that our community has some viable options to choose from and it's vital that we keep pushing the limits with each!

Anyway, stay tuned and I'll update in a few weeks.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: MLeavy737 on January 15, 2013, 01:13:20 pm
Wow Scott! Looks awesome! Can't wait to see it sometime again with the new screens.  You have me thinking now although I know I will try the projectors first I'm sure.  Don't know if I could get over the tv borders or not.  Well see.

Mike L
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on January 15, 2013, 01:16:46 pm
Nic,

How do you manage to project over the shell when the screens are so close to the shell or are you using rear projections?

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 15, 2013, 02:00:55 pm
Cool Nic. Can't wait to see some pics.

TVs were an easy choice for me as I was space limited in the new place and had only acquired two projectors, so I wasn't married to a setup yet. Cost also played a big part as the three 60's were only $2400, throw in another $200 for Scott's mount design and I think it's pretty cost effective.

I'm sticking with P3D for now as I may move to five screens at some point (and have hope for a 2.0 version (though they already stated a new license will be required for 2.0). Xplane on five would kill me with five PCs, unless I build a bunch of i5 boxes with five series video cards and a single 120GB drive in each.

They'll always be something new in this "sport"   Kind of the fun of it is figuring it out.

Playing flight sim on my Sinclair ZX80 I thought was the greatest thing ever, until I set eyes on the Sublogic release of FlightSim.  Little did I know what it would cost me. :)

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 15, 2013, 02:18:53 pm
I'm thinking you would only need 3 PCs for xplane still.   You could run two TVs on left off pc1, one on center being pc2 and main server, and the 3rd on the left with two.   Your center view could be say 45 degrees and each of the other pcs would run 90 degrees across an extended desktop.

This is my possible future plan if I ever add two monitors.  This is also easy for me to test now because I can shift the TVs all over by one thus having two on one side and the center to test the side theory.  I think it would work fine.

Might have to try that this weekend just to see the results.

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: tennyson on January 15, 2013, 02:32:05 pm
Hi Guys.
Following this discussion very carefully.

If I could just bring back a piccy that I think Scott (I hope it was him, and with his kind permission) originally made:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffsfiles.org%2Fflightsimshotsv2%2Fimages%2F2013%2F01%2F15%2F0FAWP.jpg&hash=9493a3606b03d44d089a420e240b5003)

So, if we replaced the 65" projector screens with 65" lcd's (which are on special at JB's at the moment for 2 grand each) that would give us almost 180 degree visuals?

Am I correct?


Frank Cooper
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: nicd on January 15, 2013, 02:42:02 pm
haha John .. yeah, FS version 1 on an IBM PC ... start of a long and expensive slippery slope into "why isn't this like the sims at CAE" oblivion !   :laugh:

Mau.. you the man!  I deliberately didn't mention rear projection to see who would figure it out. You're on the money.  The back projection screen is from Carl's Place (thanks to John for his earlier work with them) and it is superb! Makes all the difference with image quality.

Scott .. ah didn't know that about Xp10 (extra display each) .. that's good news.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 16, 2013, 09:18:40 am
So Scott, like this?

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi73.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi228%2Fjskibo%2FFlight%2520Sim%2F92400ceb9e960ee32e31a530932d764c.jpg&hash=51efd6c7b1e624c2c3217b6422589d78)

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi73.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi228%2Fjskibo%2FFlight%2520Sim%2F1e1e3c972ad6be16def7ab7c1aed23ee.jpg&hash=3288d4ab8ec85783b838633c2618c379)

Really ingenious idea, gotta hand it to you!
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on January 16, 2013, 10:42:00 am
Hi John,

A little off thread here, but I noticed in your pics the power cords you're running and how you have a long extension cord with a power strip, and then you have another power strip plugged into it. And, in your last power strip you have multiple items plus some power blocks (wall warts). Well, that is exactly what I use to do and I melted two power strips, as well as I had brown melting spots on the power blocks.

Plus, I used to do several extension cords in this manner because I only had 3 outlets (1 outlet on 1 circuit and 2 outlets on another circuit) at the time. Anyway, I will never do things like that again; especially, because the melting actually melted the fire rated carpet (not easy to catch fire carpeting) underneath. It happened when I wasn't home no less...scared me into adding a 100amp subpanel with 12 circuits (11 are 20amp each for the sim and 1 is 15amp grounded for outside pole light).

John

Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 16, 2013, 11:55:10 am
Quote from: jskibo on January 16, 2013, 09:18:40 am
So Scott, like this?


Really ingenious idea, gotta hand it to you!


Awesome.  Thanks John.  Yes, we spend enough money on everything that I figured I didnt need to spend $400-500 each on a bunch of crappy Chinese made stands that probably arent anywhere near as solid as these Home Depot McGuivered specials.... ;)

Looks like your all set!!

Scott

BTW - for the heck of it I tried FSX/Wideview this morning and looked really good!!!.....Until it crashed  :huh:   Just sayin......
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 16, 2013, 12:49:22 pm
Scott, they work really well.  Still going to find a way to further brace them when they are all installed.

John, that's just for testing.  I have two dedicated 20 amp circuits for the sim.  Most of those wall warts go away as well as I'm wiring the 12v to the PC power supply (SYS cards, LED lighting, etc). 

Good point though!

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi73.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi228%2Fjskibo%2FFlight%2520Sim%2F5b5fe048028129173996f972543341c3.jpg&hash=50ceebac62e67b6c17fbd3b2bed38753)

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi73.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fi228%2Fjskibo%2FFlight%2520Sim%2Fdbc53c590696b18fcf391f305cfc54fa.jpg&hash=a73c1a3b3caf0a53c048de7d27ec2d5b)
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Nat Crea on January 16, 2013, 11:44:35 pm
QuoteBTW - for the heck of it I tried FSX/Wideview this morning and looked really good!!!.....Until it crashed     Just sayin......


Sorry..off topic...but Scott, you have mentioned a few times. I rarely get crashes with FSX/Wideview (as a result of wideview)...what kind of crashes do you have?

Nat
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Nat Crea on January 17, 2013, 12:25:37 am
Back on topic....

Everyone knows Im biased to projected visuals....but I dont think you're all comparing TV and Projectors fairly.
The average 737 3-Projector setup, has a display area FIVE TIMES that of 3 60" Plasma's!

Of course things look sharper. If anyone with a projector set up ( I deleted names  ;D),
re-positioned their projectors to shrink down the image 5 times smaller to that of 3 Plasmas, the pixel density would skyrocket.
BUT I bet, no sooner, you would put them back to fill your windows. :D

Nat

Couldnt resist...
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: nicd on January 17, 2013, 01:19:17 am
yeah Nat ... smaller projection AND filling all windows  .. that's what I'm attempting to do
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on January 17, 2013, 01:29:15 am
I know this is going to sound silly, but has anyone ever tried backscreen projection material attached to the window frames, and then used projectors straight on or by mirror reflection onto the screens?

Just a curious thought about it and how it would look? The daylight brightness in the cockpit would surely be there...

John
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Nat Crea on January 17, 2013, 01:38:57 am
I tried once John, just quick and rough with opal acrylic,  but it was very weird and unrealistic.

Nat
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on January 17, 2013, 05:32:47 am
Quote from: melnato on January 17, 2013, 12:25:37 am
Back on topic....

Everyone knows Im biased to projected visuals....but I dont think you're all comparing TV and Projectors fairly.
The average 737 3-Projector setup, has a display area FIVE TIMES that of 3 60" Plasma's!

Of course things look sharper. If anyone with a projector set up ( I deleted names  ;D),
re-positioned their projectors to shrink down the image 5 times smaller to that of 3 Plasmas, the pixel density would skyrocket.
BUT I bet, no sooner, you would put them back to fill your windows. :D

Nat

Couldnt resist...


I did think about doing exactly that a while back but dismissed the idea since rear projection would be required to get a smaller projection close to the windows (same as what Nic is doing except with 3 projectors). But the image would still not be as bright, sharp and contrasty as a plasma or LCD TV would be. So you might win your bet but only because projection will never be as good as TVs no matter what screen size.

I still think that full wraparound is not worth the loss of clarity but I'm glad you disagree and are very happy with your existing setup. I wish I could stop wishing about what I can't have...brightness, clarity, sharpness with 240 degrees field of view and 60 fps average ;D

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 17, 2013, 06:10:35 am
Quote from: melnato on January 17, 2013, 12:25:37 am

Everyone knows Im biased to projected visuals....but I dont think you're all comparing TV and Projectors fairly.
The average 737 3-Projector setup, has a display area FIVE TIMES that of 3 60" Plasma's!

Of course things look sharper. If anyone with a projector set up ( I deleted names  ;D),
re-positioned their projectors to shrink down the image 5 times smaller to that of 3 Plasmas, the pixel density would skyrocket.
BUT I bet, no sooner, you would put them back to fill your windows. :D

Nat

Couldnt resist...


Haha, glad you chimed in Nat.

My take on this now having had both worlds is that the size in this case does not matter.   Since the LED TVs are brought in much closer to the windows they completely fill the front view and much of the forward side views and you dont see the tops and bottoms of the screens so to me it is exactly the same as looking at the projection.   The very rear sides of the side screens and bottom is visable looking out the side window but I dont really notice that especially with back windows blacked out and the lights off.   You dont notice really at all.   I get the same percepetion of filling my windows as I did with the projection.  In fact, I could bring the side monitors in more to fill that void but I like the view I have the way it is now.    Also, my friend CP and I had discussed that there could be potential loss of depth perception going to a flat surfaced screen.  We had discussed this back when I was thinking of changing my projectors to hit a straight screen instead of curves to get rid of the warping software and we both agreed it would probably change the sense of depth.    Well...in my eyes, my sense of depth with the LED TVs is now even better than it ever was on projection.   I think this is due to a number of factors.   First, my contrast ratio went from 2500:1 on the DLP projectors to 500000:1 on the TVs.   Second, everything on the screen is crystal and I mean crystal clear.   Third, all of the shadow rendering on X-Plane (and I am sure the same effect on FSX) is much much clearer...not fuzzy.   This means that the real dimensional aspects of depth built into the simulation really come to life now.   All of this is really hard to explain but for me at least, seeing was believing.   

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Nat Crea on January 17, 2013, 01:31:50 pm
Mau, Scott...I take on-board what you say...but a SEAMLESS world is the only one for me.

Plus...TV's are so 80's  ;D

Nat
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 17, 2013, 01:51:17 pm
Thinking of rocking some 26" CRTs, what do you think?  :)
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on January 17, 2013, 02:05:18 pm
Nat,

What zoom factor are you using and which airport scenery is that? Also, you're using 3 seperate computers (1 per projector) right? What are the specs on the computers?

John
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Nat Crea on January 17, 2013, 11:50:03 pm
GDay John,

ORBX YMML Melbourne Airport.
3 x i7 2700K/Projector + older dual core for Server.
From memory, zoom is around 0.7

Nat

@John Skibo...LOL....maybe in a few years time.

@Mau, Scott...at the end of the day, If your happy with either visual, that's all that counts.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HarryZ on January 18, 2013, 04:04:08 pm
Quote from: melnato on January 17, 2013, 01:31:50 pm
Mau, Scott...I take on-board what you say...but a SEAMLESS world is the only one for me.

Plus...TV's are so 80's  ;D

Nat


Have to agree with you on that one Nat.  But everyone has their own ideas of what they prefer.

I just finished an exercise in removing my Triple Head 2Go  that was hooked up to 3 BenQ projectors on my curved screen.  I replaced my Nivida 570 video card with a Nvidia 660 that has 4 outlet plugs and the Surround View feature.

Replacing a video card normally has its headaches but this change of hardware was a real challenge with having to solve several issues. But in the end, the Surround View gives a better display and more intense graphics. As well, higher resolutions were available compared to the TH2G.

I now have a Nvidia 570 GTX video card available for anyone who may be interested.

Harry
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: fsaviator on January 18, 2013, 10:36:16 pm
Harry,
I might be interested in your Nvidia 570 GTX.

Can you tell me if going to the four head card improved your framerates at all over the TH2Go?  I'm still trying to figure out the way around this bottleneck for my wrap around/Benq system
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 19, 2013, 03:24:20 am
You guys should really start another thread instead of hijacking this one.   It is supposed to be about TVS,  not selling stuff or talking about projection, rear projection, etc.   just sayin.... :huh:

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: blueskydriver on January 19, 2013, 04:02:59 am
Scott,

Started a new thread...

John
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 19, 2013, 04:24:38 am
Can't aadd much until next week, the other two TVs shipped last night (and Panasonic went out of stock on them now....phew, got it in on time) and won't arrive until the 23rd.

What I can say is like Scott, I love the clarity, blacks are awesome, never saw so many stars, size wise it's almost perfect where they are positioned.

I'll need to step up my video card though.  The P3D machine had dual GTX 275's in it.  I can do Nvidia surround with them, but frame rates are just ok.  What I can't do is full screen with the added PcI card for my lower EICAS.  As soon as I put the main view full screen, I lose the 4th monitor to black.  The 600 series cards can do that as well as the AMD 7000 series.  Now I'm torn between a 670 and a 7970.  Always been an NVidia guy.  Anyone running a 7970 or 7950 have any comments?  They seem to perform better at high res with the larger memory bandwidth 384 vs 256 bit.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HarryZ on January 19, 2013, 05:38:17 am
Quote from: fsaviator on January 18, 2013, 10:36:16 pm
Harry,
I might be interested in your Nvidia 570 GTX.

Can you tell me if going to the four head card improved your framerates at all over the TH2Go?  I'm still trying to figure out the way around this bottleneck for my wrap around/Benq system


Warren,

I just completed the process yesterday and am testing everything now.  Initial results show FPS as good as before but I've limited the FPS to 30 on the sim.  The biggest improvement so far is the depth of color and texture rendering.

I have to do more tweaking with the hardware and software since this exercise ended up arbitrarily changing settings that I had not touched during the change.  Was frustrating since I had to go looking for what had happened but like always you eventually find out the culprits.

I'll get back to you after I do a few more flights.

Harry
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Maurice on January 19, 2013, 06:19:15 am
Quote from: HarryZ on January 19, 2013, 05:38:17 am

.  Initial results show FPS as good as before but I've limited the FPS to 30 on the sim.  The biggest improvement so far is the depth of color and texture rendering.

Harry


You must have better eyes than me Harry:). I so wanted to see an improvement but I can honestly say I see no difference between my GTX690 and old GTX480 with THG. But as I said before, it could be that I do not know how to optimize the settings for the 690 and I am still messing with it and trying to squeeze better performance but so far, no joy for me.

Maurice
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: HarryZ on January 19, 2013, 12:36:09 pm
QuoteYou must have better eyes than me Harry:). I so wanted to see an improvement but I can honestly say I see no difference between my GTX690 and old GTX480 with THG. But as I said before, it could be that I do not know how to optimize the settings for the 690 and I am still messing with it and trying to squeeze better performance but so far, no joy for me.

Maurice


Hi Maurice,

I can't speak for the 690 card and I've heard it's a bit of overkill for FS X. 

I've changed my Windows Desktop colour control from Windows to Nvidia and that made a difference in colour intensity.  The clarity of the ground textures in particular are quite a bit better than my 570 and TH2G. 

The 660 also seems to work with Warpalizer better.

Like I said, I need to do a fair bit more testing in various areas to compare what I had before.  I'll let all of you know how it works out.

Harry
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Nat Crea on January 20, 2013, 02:54:19 am
GDay Ben

Current screen is a continuous sheet of 3mm Acrylic. I had to prime and paint it,
quite heavy, fragile and expensive...but seamless.
Bought it from a company called Mulfords in Melbourne.

Nat
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 20, 2013, 04:43:39 am
Waaayyyyyyyyy off topic.....

Come on guys...be respectful of the thread subjects and start new threads if a different topic.   Screens have already been covered on this forum in other threads quite heavily.

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Nat Crea on January 20, 2013, 12:49:48 pm
Yeah Ben! ;D
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: XOrionFE on January 24, 2013, 11:01:16 am
Hello Kyle, you are correct.   sense of motion is better if view is carried out to the sides of your periphery.   180 is definitely nice.  That said, there is still a lot of sense of motion with the 150 that the TVs provide so we are talking about around 15 degrees either side of difference.   Very subjective and give and take.  Each solution has its pluses.   I feel sense of motion is better on the projectors and sense of depth is actually better on the TVs.   

Scott
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on January 24, 2013, 12:49:44 pm
I agree on the depth, I gt up parked athe gate last night and from standing out the back of the cockpit it really felt 3D
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: goof2092 on January 25, 2013, 02:17:58 am
Quote from: tennyson on September 17, 2012, 04:07:22 pm
If you look at the size of the windows of a 737, you will discover that the front two windows are almost the same size as a 32" monitor.

The side windows can be both covered by 46" monitors.

I have built my sim like this and have my two forward screens mounted and functional. You need to slant them slightly to achieve the correct result, but it is quite a decent alternative to projectors.

You need to spend good money on your screens, tho. I bought Samsung high def lcd smart TV's and keep the hertz rating down, you want 100khz models.

I've got mine hooked up to a 3960x pc running two GTX 680's and a display port dual head to go, the output is spectacular.

I haven't mounted my 46" models yet,  as I'm still working on my sidewalls, but I'll throw a few pics up when I get close to finished.

Oh, and yes, I went this way, because I didn't have the room and didn't want to be flying with one 55" screen our front.

Here's a few snaps from a video I took a while back:

(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffsfiles.org%2Fflightsimshotsv2%2Fimages%2F2012%2F09%2F17%2FCF2c.jpg&hash=01ed853ba4704d2f975f00a1358b5efd)



(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffsfiles.org%2Fflightsimshotsv2%2Fimages%2F2012%2F09%2F17%2FjdnqT.jpg&hash=3795067ce80afa98911909d6c63abfb2)


Frank Cooper



Hi Frank,
I was thinking of mixing the screens like you have described but have been worried about the 'step drop' that would be created when mounting the side window 46" displays. Have you done this already and how have you handled it?

What sort of distance are we talking about from the window frames  to the display surface  for the two front windows ?


Thanks Anthony


Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Boeing Skunk Works on February 28, 2013, 05:28:19 am
For the time being, I'm stuck using smaller monitors. I will eventually be moving to larger LCD TV's. This is the way to go with WidevieW.

I've always been a fan of this technology. It's cheap(er), low maintenance, no bulbs to buy, etc.

Here's a question for those using this.

If I were to use two 32" monitors for the forward display, what do you tell wideview to use for angles on these two?
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: jskibo on February 28, 2013, 05:32:47 am
Quote from: Boeing Skunk Works on February 28, 2013, 05:28:19 am
For the time being, I'm stuck using smaller monitors. I will eventually be moving to larger LCD TV's. This is the way to go with WidevieW.

I've always been a fan of this technology. It's cheap(er), low maintenance, no bulbs to buy, etc.

Here's a question for those using this.

If I were to use two 32" monitors for the forward display, what do you tell wideview to use for angles on these two?


Look for the windowmaker tool over on mycockpits.  Its an excel file that will do all the calcs and build the .flt file for your views
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: Boeing Skunk Works on February 28, 2013, 06:03:44 am
Thanks.
Title: Re: Are TV's the way?
Post by: tennyson on February 28, 2013, 06:29:49 am
Anthony,
I gave up on the TV's. I'm now travelling down the path of building a curved screen and three projectors.

I've moved house and have got a beautiful, big room to house my cockpit, so I will be going all out with the visuals.

Here's a pic, just before I moved.
(https://www.cockpitbuilders.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffsfiles.org%2Fflightsimshotsv2%2Fimages%2F2013%2F02%2F28%2FI18Gy.jpg&hash=2219b55541bedca40c01ae2766b21c8f)

On another note, I bought a 60 inch TV for my loungeroom last week. It's a high def Sony LCD. It cost me 1300 dollars and when I go back into JB-hifi yesterday, it's back up to 2000 bucks. Go figure that?

Talk about being in the right place.....


Frank Cooper