The Charm of Classic airliners.

[jackpilot]

Classic airliners.....These birds are far from gone and still grace our Airspace, and minds. (RECENT EDIT:CHECK  http://www.flightsim-comet.com/comet1.html  AMAZING) And for some of us, maybe most, the  attraction of a Classic  "front office" panel, populated by a myriad of real Gauges , is still unquestionable.



The Glass Panels are attractive, easy to build, trendy and mostly....are the only ones supported by Hardware and Software vendors.
Oddly enough,  some brave and passionate  Souls  decided to build the unbuildable.
We know the names, and I post this, first as a tribute to their dedication, but mostly to call on them to share their knowledge and experience and maybe contribute to resurrect the magic of Flying the Beast instead of programming it.
The questions are many . Where are the gauges coming from, what are the flight models available, and more important what kind of network /computer/ multi monitor systems can do the trick.
We are so used to the GC configuration using PM or Sim Avionics that we have a hard time figuring out how to display the components and interface the controls in a Classic context.
Besides a new wave of interest for the Classic could entice the Vendors to develop appropriate products, even little things such as Bezels...and some builders like me to take the plunge!
OK Guys....speak up.

[727737Nut]

Captain Sim is releasing a 737-200 next!! 

I myself am building a classic on the engine gauges and co-pilots side. I may go complete if i can find the parts reasonably priced.   The interface available to us now will allow us to integrate the real instruments, some easy, some not so easy. But it IS doable.

The thing you have to realize is that the older planes actually required you to fly so no more setting the AP and walking away for 2 hours then coming back to land.

I have a new camera and once i firgure out how to post pics, i will show you where i am in my set-up right now.
Rob

[Boeing Skunk Works]

Tackling one of these projects is certainly not a cookie-cutter build. You don't ring up FDS and ask them to send an overhead set, a MIP frame, a center control stand, and all the hardware and then download PM. You're pretty much on your own for a throttle too.

It is really too bad that this hobby and computers in general were not advanced enough twenty or thirty years ago to be able to build what is considered a vintage aircraft in this day. Can you imagine how many classic 737-200's and 727's, DC-8's and -9's, L1011's, Convair 880's and 890's, etc., could have been around back then?

Instead, we have computerized aircraft that you only have to fly for a few minutes at a time. The rest of the time you sit and monitor. Change a frequency. Oh, wait a darn minute, you don't even have to do that anymore. Autotune to the rescue! And you thought autotune was only used in the music business. Ha! Change a heading, program some more numbers into the FMC, etc, etc. Captain Kirk would sure be proud.

Enough ranting about what I think is wrong with airplanes today. Now where was I? Damn meds give me short-term memory loss.

Oh, yeah. Nothing I'd like more than real modified guages in my 727. Until someone can come up with a Collins 4" HSI that replicates the real instrument, I'm afraid I'll be stuck using a computer monitor to display guages on my MIP. Which is real BTW. Along with nearly every module in the overhead, the classic Sperry SP50 autopilot using all modes and functions (except roll control which I wouldn't use even if I had it working).

The day someone produces an authentic working HSI is the day my MIP goes all analog guages.

No software other than what comes with the flight model for these old girls. You want logic? Go talk to Mr. Spock. You get whatever logic the flight model you choose comes with. I'm fortunate that everything I've wired so far works out OK with my flight model. The mouse capture function in FSUIPC takes care of anything that refuses to work through the FSUIPC command menu.

Other than not having any hardware or software it's pretty much like any other build. NOT.

[jackpilot]

One (multi)question:

Assuming one is  using monitors behind panels to display gauges, (which is right now the easiest way to go and not  a bad one especially for night flying) are all instrument displays coming from the FS Computer ?
If yes, The  FS computer drives the gauges , the visual and everything else.... frame rate?
What about using PM 767 steam gauges for the main  T  instruments. Capt  and  FO , as they can be positionned and sized at will.
Any other mean to shift the load to a network?

Am I right assuming that a classic is mostly a One computer "affair" with multi-monitor and video cards.
If using wide view does it frees the FS PC from displaying the outside view and eases the frame rate.

Could Mike , Matt , Rob , Bob and  and all other Classic builders explain how they make it work.

[matta757]

Hey Jack,

I'd be glad to answer about my setup. I'd call the 757/767 a mix of classic and modern, which is partly why I like it so much.

My particular setup is currently only utilizing one PC for all the functions. I am a bit confined by my budget (which I have already expanded greatly since starting over a year ago but has really expanded about as far as I can allow). So my setup is powered by one PC with 2 separate video cards. My highest quality card (nVIDIA GTX 460) is used solely for outside views. My outside views are displayed on a 22" monitor. My second card, a nVIDIA 9800GT is used to display all gauges on the MIP. My MIP displays are 2 19" LCD monitors.

You are clearly wondering about frame rates. I think my computer handles this setup pretty well. When on the ground, at airports mostly with high quality sceneries, with 100% AI traffic (extremely realistic too) I get anywhere between 16 and 30 FPS. I have capped my sim at 30 FPS. In the air, obviously, frame rates tend to be higher.

As for the gauges themselves, I myself am not using an Project Magenta software. I haven't even looked into, frankly because I know its expensive and I'm not even sure if they make a 757? Anyways, I have chosen to use the PSS 757 software. You may have heard bad things about PSS, and while some of it is true, they mostly relate to the aircraft models, dynamics, and the 2D panels.

I for one think that the quality of the gauges and the accuracy of their modeling make them a superior choice for the sim. Not only that, modified flight dynamics using actual 757 specifications were released a while ago and now the planes fly like a dream. I have blended the gauges and dynamics with the superior POSKY 757 model to create a perfect airplane!

When setting up the gauges on my MIP, all gauges can be resized and positioned at will. This gives an incredible amout of flexibility to place them where they fit. I have used FS Panel studio to create 2 gauge windows, Capt and EICAS that when opened are the right size and dimensions and only involve undocking, moving to proper spot and then changing to full screen mode. Works like a charm. Building an airplane like the 757 presents certainly challenges when building the MIP, such as buttons and switches on the MIP and finding room for them with the monitors behind them.

I do want to eventually move to a wide view in order to improve PC performance, but that's not in the budget right now. I want to totally echo Mike's comments about how difficult it can be to build an aircraft that is not supported by FDS and the like. Without vendors selling parts tailored to your aircraft, you're often on your own to create things. I too am fairly fortunate that most of what I have wired I have been able to make work. But building a TQ from scratch with very little to go off of is just as hard as it sounds!

[Boeing Skunk Works]

My guages are all from the DF727 except for the engine stack display which wouldn't play nice in Panel Studio. The engine stack guages are an import from the Richard Probst 727 freeware aircraft. I do like the EPR guages better as they have the drum counters which makes setting power easier and more accurate than using a needle alone.

My main FS comp runs two video cards, three monitors, and all the radios and other input cards. The monitors on these cards are the main forward outside view, and the two MIP displays. There is little frame rate loss due to these instrument displays. They don't seem to suck up processing power.

Frame rates at Mega-Heathrow, GA1 airports, Fly Tampa Vienna, etc, are typically 12-15 on the ground and increasing on climbout. My rate is capped at 25. Uncapped enroute at altitude I've seen as high as 50-60 running UT Europe.

I would not consider networked guages considering the success I'm currently having with my computer setup.

Wideview runs my outside views except for the previously mentioned main forward view. Three other computers are running four more monitors. The other computers are not as current as my main system, and that one is now just past three years old. Two of them run XP Pro and the other two are running XP Home. Not really too much difference except i networking capabilities and admin functions. The framerates on these other computers are not quite as high as they are on the main system in heavy payware areas. They do look OK though except for the one system struggling with running two monitors.

I plan on adding additional computers for the aft 45° views and the left forward, left, and left aft, downward looking views. These will be placed below the current monitors on the left side of the sim and angled upward at 45° with a continuing view downward of the upper monitors. Should be interesting to set this up.

[727737Nut]

I have 4 pc's running my current set-up.  I have the PM 767 set-up on the co-pilots side replicating a 737-300 and above.  I run pm suite or Prosim on the other 2 pc's. 

Guys, the real gauges are not difficult to use. Just a simple servo and 2 gears and you are done.  My EPR gauge uses the orginal synchro shaft! I just removed the end bell, attached a small 10t gear, mounted a micro servo on an epoxied stand-off and presto! working real gauge.   5 mins with a calculator and SIOC and all is well. 
Wait till i get all my engine gauges first before you guys go out buy them all! LOL

I have an older 2.4G Q6600 w/3 gig ram and 8800GT video card.  I get 20-24.9 FPS at all times. Locked at 25.  My sliders are all maxed except the autogen which is on dense.  No GA traffic or water traffic either.
Rob

[TomR]

Hi Jack

To answer you question (PM).
It is possible of course to have gauges (old style) and most you get very easy to work (sometimes better than the real ones).
BUT in any case I would never use only ONE PC. The less load on the server (FS-PC) you have the better the frame rates.
It is well known that the server should have a fast Drive for Windows (C:\) and best two fast drives in Raid0 (or already a good SSD) for the SIM (FS) and its addons, by side a good Mother Board, CPU and Graphics card. For FSX you should have 8 GB, more is not really needed and less slows down.
For any other just use a simple Barbone PC (doesn't cost more than 350 Euro).
Those simple Barbones I use (as well for customers) have already a NVidia graphics card and a fast CPU with 2GB ram.
For Instruments (servo driven gauges) I can tell that I only use Phidgets Advanced Servo Controller (driven with my own software) and they work smoother than any step motor expensive ready to use gauges. The reason to use Phidgets instead of other servo controllers like OC is that Phidgets gives you the control about acceleration ... of the servo, so you can drive it very realistic instead of just position it to somewhere.
As well for those SimKits gauges customers sometimes have I just remove their controller and drive them direct with a Phidgets Advanced Servo Controller to get them nice and smooth working (sometimes to get them working at all).
So all in all I wouldn't drive any sim with only one PC and I think everyone that has or had the experience of improving their sim from one PC to two PC's can confirm that the Server load is less and running smoother.
And very important in those scenarios is like ever, let those additional PC's only do the work you bought them for and don't install more and more and ... It makes your live much easier.
Just to say somthing at all to sims in Classic style, like others already told what is really needed.
1. FS-PC
2. a second PC to run the hardware
3. I think you should have logic. I don't want do any advertising but I don't use e.g. pmSystems anymore because all logic and much more is already in my software that is used for pro training. In the case hardware is used then there is no need for a graphic display to see the switches a second time.
With already the above you can have a perfect sim and any additional PC, software or what ever makes it more worth but is only needed if you really need more.
Airline pilots they changed e.g. from a NG to classic 300 loves it to fly again a "real" ac :-)

[jackpilot]

Thank you Thomas...a lot of info ...and maybe  a chance to develop a new interest in
"steam gauges!"
I really think , and that was the idea of this post, that we should seriously look further into the possibility of using more real gauges.  Before that maybe some schematics or simple little drawings of how things are actuated and connected would help too...

Still sounds alien (to me at least) but it should'nt be

[727737Nut]

Jack,
I have some pics, I can't be much easier than what i have done.  I can't for the life of me upload pictures to this site in a post!   No schematics needed on the synchro driven instruments. You just unscrew the end bell off of the synchro. Press a 9 to 12t nylon gear on the now exposed shaft. Zip-tie, epoxy, or whatever method you desire to add a stand-oof to mount a micro servo to. Install 18-22t gear on servo and presto!  You have a functioning gauge. 

[Trevor Hale]

I can't for the life of me upload pictures to this site in a post!    

LOL  Rob, at the bottom of the window where you type this text, you will see a big + sign next to attachments and other options. 

you can add your attachements there.

Let me know if it still doesn;t work.

Trev

[727737Nut]

Sorry it took so long, here is a pic of my EPR gauge. I just removed the contacts and end-bell from the synchro and you can see the result. Works great and easy to do.

Rob

[jackpilot]

Real Neat.
So that part looks fairly straightforward.
What about the other end of the wiring...

[727737Nut]

Real Neat.
So that part looks fairly straightforward.
What about the other end of the wiring...

The orange wires are just the backlighting, the servo just plugs into an OC servo card.  The servo stand-off is zip tied to the synchro. 
The pic below is the backside of the Flaps gauge, same set-up. My gauges are run either by servo and gearing or 0-5Vdc ouput card to meter movements.

[blueskydriver]

edit

[jackpilot]

Interesting..
Did anyone try that?

[blueskydriver]

edit

[NeoMorph]

I've been using FsXPand for some of the guages so far... One thing that it beats Project Magenta is that you can make your own gauges too. There are some glitches with it occasionally but it does work very well.

I'm definitely going to be using it for the center console. For the PFD though I will be using the Flight 1 gauges I think, as they have a bunch of stuff that I haven't seen before (like a TCAS built into a VSI gauge).

I like Glass Cockpits but LOVE classic gauges. That 3d view of the Enola Gay just has so much character to it. The TQ levers were so long probably because you had to use muscle power to move the cables that the levers were attached to. No wonder it was primarily a male occupation back then.

Those levers are dangerous though... My dad used to be a Para back in WWII and he told me about getting invited to fly on a check flight of this bomber... He was invited to sit in the rear gunners position and was trying the gunners aiming system. Then he looks down and sees this other lever... pulls it and then looks up and wonders why he is looking back inside the plane... and nearly peed himself when he realised he had pulled the bail out lever heh... there was nothing whatsoever behind him and he didn't have a parachute on.

Luckily he managed to push the lever back and get back into the plane... he learned a lesson there though... don't touch what you don't understand. 

[727737Nut]

Is this one better Jack?   I like it!

[jackpilot]

So do I....There youre talking!!

[NeoMorph]

Has anyone ever done a Nimrod or Comet Airliner cockpit... After the UK finally started crushing the cancelled Nimrods this week it's a shame nobody went and asked if they could buy a cockpit shell and parts for a Nimrod sim.

[CeeGee]

Yup, ours is the Comet 4 ex BOAC and RAF. There would be a lot of good stuff from those Nimrods and they are Comets after all...... Somewhere in Cheshire, hmmmmm. The price will be good as well, as it is a bulk disposal. 

[NeoMorph]

There is something I really loved about the look of the Nimrod. It makes you think of a Comet that is 6 months pregnant heh. Unfortunately due to this dumb government they are just wasting money by crushing these aircraft. I bet the engineers who spent years working on them are really depressed now.

Considering that the last Comet flew in 1954 (due to there being a major design flaw) it's a wonder than the UK kept trying to use them... 57 years difference... Mind blowing when you think about it. The Comet was the world's first jet airliner apparently... Considering the plane has kept flying (in a military capacity at least) for 59 year (yep, it flew for only 2 years in civilian service) it has to be some sort of record.

This government is mental though... First the Harrier... Scrapped, then Ark Royal... Scrapped, and then Nimrod... Scrapped.

That's a point... I wonder if there are Harrier parts getting sold off as well.

But damn me, it's an end of an era... All the airliners look alike these days. It's mainly Boeing and Airbus with a few McD's... Ahh well, it is the 21st Century now I suppose...