Updating Navigraph FMC Data - Project Magenta Glass Cockpit

[ScottThePilot]

Hello all,

Haven't been in here for awhile.  Have posted before about update questions for PM on full 737 hardware cockpit I inherited working on.  Much better understanding since last post on this some 3 years ago. I tried to "BOLD" the actual questions.

I downloaded Navigraph Data for PM (pm_cdunav, pm_gcnav, pm_instnav and pm_qmnav) to do an update.  By the way, what is the pm_qmnav used for?

My Issue...
After dropping in files manually, I think the GC (Glass Cockpit) is where my issue pops up because I can put routes in and see them on the "legs" page and drawn in white on ND displays as I type just fine.  Once I hit EXEC, the pink line draws from initial airport and then takes off into infinity in some odd direction never following the route.  Sometimes it just doesn't show at all.  I flew anyway to test and the Flight Director / AP will follow the course correctly through all waypoints even though they are not visible.  Once I turn down final on the ILS, the ILS waypoints reappear magically and are visible until passing them during approach. 

If I add waypoints while inflight, they appear drawn in white as I type perfectly on ND.  Again, once I press EXEC, they disappear from screen and no line is drawn.  Legs page is correct with new added waypoints and A/P will follow just fine so I know it is just a drawing issue in the ND.

My setup...
PC1 - Server: P3Dv4
PC2 - PFD/ND for both pilots, Upper & Lower EICAS
PC3 - Capt CDU
PC4 - F/O CDU
PC5 - PM Instructor Station
PC6 - Various other programs (not PM)

Navigraph Update program does not see everything for what ever reason.  Maybe permissions but what I now am in charge of.  So I drop files in manually in the following manner...

PC2 (Pilot displays and EICAS) - drop 3 files into each of the separate directories (\CAPT, \FO, \UPPER, \LOWER) which are "long named" index file, cycle_info, pfd.nav files.  Do these 3 files really need to be in the \UPPER and \LOWER directories?  I would think not since they are never drawing any routes but thought I would ask.

PC3 (Capt CDU) - drop 11 files into the CDU\DATA directory.  Some of which are "long named" index file, cycle_info, and a bunch of cdu.* files.  I just leave all other files alone.

** Do I need to drop any files or make other mods in the netdir also and if so which ones?

PC4 (F/O CDU) - Runs using RCDU and has no \Data directory so looks like nothing to update here.  Correct?

PC5 (instructors) - drop 4 files into the \DATA directory which are "long named" index file, cycle_info, pminst.awy and pminst.dat file.  There are 3 very old files in there named world1.wshp, world2.wshp and world3.wshp that I just leave although not sure what they are. 

Both CDU's are updated because I know a few waypoints that changed in real life.  The Instructors station I think updated OK although not sure of how to check that directly while program is running? Thoughts on this?

Anyway, now that I know where all the files reside, it seems pretty trivial to drop the files in from the downloads.  I just make sure I grab all the downloaded files and have the corresponding files replaced with the new ones.  Just don't know why the CDU's appear correct and the ND display will not draw correctly.

I am working off the 2107 update which was the most current until I think a day or two ago.  I did not update any of the baseline P3D scenery files to fix VOR, ILS etc but that shouldn't matter to PM drawing regular waypoints in the ND correct?

Sorry for long post but two final questions...
1. After doing the update, I have 2 listed nav data "dates".  The one under "active" is the correct one that ran through Aug 11th of 2021.  Not sure where the other date is coming from although it obviously looks like the prior cycle to the one I just loaded.  The last cycle that I actually loaded was Jan of 2020 so I know there is no cycle_info file with that date in it. I attached a picture to show.  Where does that second line come from?

2. I attached a couple more shots from the instructors screen that show versions I am running and also the "magnetic variation" of W13.2 and KSJC.  Since I am a real instrument pilot, I use ForeFlight and looked at KSJC which has a magvar of 13.2E.  Why does PM show it as W13.2?

I am stumped and could probably arrange some renumeration to someone for an hours worth of help to resolve.  But I know several of you here have had PM for a lot of years (far more than me) and know this stuff.

Thanks in advance for the help.

[Joe Lavery]

I would suggest you drop PM a line or look on the PM forum to see if anyone else has had this issue.

[Trevor Hale]

Hello all,

Haven't been in here for awhile.  Have posted before about update questions for PM on full 737 hardware cockpit I inherited working on.  Much better understanding since last post on this some 3 years ago. I tried to "BOLD" the actual questions.

I downloaded Navigraph Data for PM (pm_cdunav, pm_gcnav, pm_instnav and pm_qmnav) to do an update.  By the way, what is the pm_qmnav used for?

My Issue...
After dropping in files manually, I think the GC (Glass Cockpit) is where my issue pops up because I can put routes in and see them on the "legs" page and drawn in white on ND displays as I type just fine.  Once I hit EXEC, the pink line draws from initial airport and then takes off into infinity in some odd direction never following the route.  Sometimes it just doesn't show at all.  I flew anyway to test and the Flight Director / AP will follow the course correctly through all waypoints even though they are not visible.  Once I turn down final on the ILS, the ILS waypoints reappear magically and are visible until passing them during approach. 

If I add waypoints while inflight, they appear drawn in white as I type perfectly on ND.  Again, once I press EXEC, they disappear from screen and no line is drawn.  Legs page is correct with new added waypoints and A/P will follow just fine so I know it is just a drawing issue in the ND.

My setup...
PC1 - Server: P3Dv4
PC2 - PFD/ND for both pilots, Upper & Lower EICAS
PC3 - Capt CDU
PC4 - F/O CDU
PC5 - PM Instructor Station
PC6 - Various other programs (not PM)

Navigraph Update program does not see everything for what ever reason.  Maybe permissions but what I now am in charge of.  So I drop files in manually in the following manner...

PC2 (Pilot displays and EICAS) - drop 3 files into each of the separate directories (\CAPT, \FO, \UPPER, \LOWER) which are "long named" index file, cycle_info, pfd.nav files.  Do these 3 files really need to be in the \UPPER and \LOWER directories?  I would think not since they are never drawing any routes but thought I would ask.

PC3 (Capt CDU) - drop 11 files into the CDU\DATA directory.  Some of which are "long named" index file, cycle_info, and a bunch of cdu.* files.  I just leave all other files alone.

** Do I need to drop any files or make other mods in the netdir also and if so which ones?

PC4 (F/O CDU) - Runs using RCDU and has no \Data directory so looks like nothing to update here.  Correct?

PC5 (instructors) - drop 4 files into the \DATA directory which are "long named" index file, cycle_info, pminst.awy and pminst.dat file.  There are 3 very old files in there named world1.wshp, world2.wshp and world3.wshp that I just leave although not sure what they are. 

Both CDU's are updated because I know a few waypoints that changed in real life.  The Instructors station I think updated OK although not sure of how to check that directly while program is running? Thoughts on this?

Anyway, now that I know where all the files reside, it seems pretty trivial to drop the files in from the downloads.  I just make sure I grab all the downloaded files and have the corresponding files replaced with the new ones.  Just don't know why the CDU's appear correct and the ND display will not draw correctly.

I am working off the 2107 update which was the most current until I think a day or two ago.  I did not update any of the baseline P3D scenery files to fix VOR, ILS etc but that shouldn't matter to PM drawing regular waypoints in the ND correct?

Sorry for long post but two final questions...
1. After doing the update, I have 2 listed nav data "dates".  The one under "active" is the correct one that ran through Aug 11th of 2021.  Not sure where the other date is coming from although it obviously looks like the prior cycle to the one I just loaded.  The last cycle that I actually loaded was Jan of 2020 so I know there is no cycle_info file with that date in it. I attached a picture to show.  Where does that second line come from?

2. I attached a couple more shots from the instructors screen that show versions I am running and also the "magnetic variation" of W13.2 and KSJC.  Since I am a real instrument pilot, I use ForeFlight and looked at KSJC which has a magvar of 13.2E.  Why does PM show it as W13.2?

I am stumped and could probably arrange some renumeration to someone for an hours worth of help to resolve.  But I know several of you here have had PM for a lot of years (far more than me) and know this stuff.

Thanks in advance for the help.

Hi There,  I will try to answer your questions as best as possible.


#1. QMNAV is the OLD pm Quick Map.  (Obsolete, and not used anymore)

#2 your issues with the waypoints disappearing are related to your NET DIRECTORY, and most certainly caused with a stupid windows networking issue.  This would be confirmed by the fact you can't brows with the Navigraph utility to those folders.  Here is the thing, the reason you would update all 5 instances of the navdata in the 5 instances of the GC software would be in case of DU failure. at that point you could switch your displays and use the upper and lower as your PFD and ND in case of failure.  However, if you have no intention of simulating this, you really only need to update the navdata on the GC instances you intend to use.  I bet you if you fix your networking issues where Navigraph software can browse to those folders, you will also correct your waypoint disappearing issues. (Welcome to the world of windows 10) (MY PM Stuff still runs on windows 7 or XP)

#4. the NETDIR is best located on the CDU machine, I find this works best.  Net Dir is only used for the software to share information and has nothing to do with navdata.  (MCP/CDU/GC) Get updated Navdata

#5.  I do not know what those world files are, and cannot confirm their existence or not in my setup.  Won't hurt for them to be there, so just leave them.

#5.  There is a new Fix around KEVV called FESTS (Pronounced Fes-tus) Named after the amazing Fess_ter_Geek, with your instructor station open and the latest navdata, look for this fix. Outbound Pocket City VOR WIXUL if it is there, your navdata update worked.

#6. No need to update anything on P3D as PM uses it's Navdata. 

#7.  PM Comes with a base Navdata.  For those that do not subscribe to Navigraph.  I am guessing that's what your seeing there. Allows you to revert to older navdata in case there is an issue, If I am thinking what you are writing.  I can't see the attachment while I am responding to you.

#8, I have never looked at the MAG variation that detailed, and do not have an answer for you on that. I do know that when entering waypoints via Coordinates, its North then West, I am not sure why they write it like that, perhaps its a european thing, as PM is written in europe.

Good Luck but sort your network stuff out.  I guarantee that will solve all your issues.  You should be able to be on your P3D machine, and browse to all your //CDU Directories and all your //GC Directories with windows explorer, turn off all your damn firewalls and you should have better luck.  If you cant access your Net directory from each PC with windows explorer, you can't expect PM to be able to see it either.

Trev

[ScottThePilot]

Mr Hale,

Glad to converse again...

I will go by the numbers back atcha...

#1. Old Quick Map obsolete.

#2. Interestingly, I can see the NetDir (which is set up on Capt CDU machine as you suggested) and look into it from the other machines.  The one machine that I DIDN'T look from is PC2 where PFD/ND are attached.  I will take a look at that first thing.  Maybe the permissions are messed up from that machine which would allow the CDU's (other machines) to act correctly and relate to P3D so flying is right BUT not draw correct on GC machine.  Sadly, still running Windows 7 on most machines.  Thanks for that direction.

#2a. Side question: You said 5 instances of the GC software in your response.  Aren't there only 4 (Capt PFD/ND, F/O PFD/ND, Upper EICAS, Lower EICAS)?  What would be the 5th directory on the GC machine?

#2b. Side question: Should I try to run pmFileCheck from PC2 which is the GC machine to see if it can really see the NetDir right?

#4. Glad that the NetDir is indeed setup on the Capt CDU machine.

#5. Roger on the no joy on those "world" files.

#5a  . I move around all the time to airports using the instructors station and I am sure that the FESTS waypoint will show in the CDU since I am now updated.  For that matter, the new KOBEE fix on the KLAX RWY 24R ILS is new and it shows in CDU fine.  How do I find/identify a fix using the instructor station?  I can find KEVV for sure but how to see the fix to confirm the instructor station got updated? 

#6. I pretty much knew that PM will use the NavData I just updated so that is not part of the issue. But to make sure that P3D has correct runway alignment and frequencies, one would have to use free source to update those items all over the world directly in P3D.  I did this a few years ago and works pretty darn good. 

#7. I know you weren't able look at the attachment while you were responding. But if you look, you will see the date is the prior cycle release.  The current one that PM offers I believe is still many years old in the downloads section.  So still a bit puzzled on where that dated cycle comes from.

#8. I understand the same as you.  Maybe it is the way its written via Europe but geez that sure makes you wonder a bit.

Thank you sirs for responding so quickly as I want to make this work right. Will let you know on the NetDir findings and pmFileCheck.
Scott

[Trevor Hale]

Mr Hale,

Glad to converse again...

I will go by the numbers back atcha...

#1. Old Quick Map obsolete.

#2. Interestingly, I can see the NetDir (which is set up on Capt CDU machine as you suggested) and look into it from the other machines.  The one machine that I DIDN'T look from is PC2 where PFD/ND are attached.  I will take a look at that first thing.  Maybe the permissions are messed up from that machine which would allow the CDU's (other machines) to act correctly and relate to P3D so flying is right BUT not draw correct on GC machine.  Sadly, still running Windows 7 on most machines.  Thanks for that direction.

#2a. Side question: You said 5 instances of the GC software in your response.  Aren't there only 4 (Capt PFD/ND, F/O PFD/ND, Upper EICAS, Lower EICAS)?  What would be the 5th directory on the GC machine?

#2b. Side question: Should I try to run pmFileCheck from PC2 which is the GC machine to see if it can really see the NetDir right?

#4. Glad that the NetDir is indeed setup on the Capt CDU machine.

#5. Roger on the no joy on those "world" files.

#5a  . I move around all the time to airports using the instructors station and I am sure that the FESTS waypoint will show in the CDU since I am now updated.  For that matter, the new KOBEE fix on the KLAX RWY 24R ILS is new and it shows in CDU fine.  How do I find/identify a fix using the instructor station?  I can find KEVV for sure but how to see the fix to confirm the instructor station got updated? 

#6. I pretty much knew that PM will use the NavData I just updated so that is not part of the issue. But to make sure that P3D has correct runway alignment and frequencies, one would have to use free source to update those items all over the world directly in P3D.  I did this a few years ago and works pretty darn good. 

#7. I know you weren't able look at the attachment while you were responding. But if you look, you will see the date is the prior cycle release.  The current one that PM offers I believe is still many years old in the downloads section.  So still a bit puzzled on where that dated cycle comes from.

#8. I understand the same as you.  Maybe it is the way its written via Europe but geez that sure makes you wonder a bit.

Thank you sirs for responding so quickly as I want to make this work right. Will let you know on the NetDir findings and pmFileCheck.
Scott

Hi Scott,


Question 2a, I miscounted, Some people use separate monitors for each of their displays though, I myself Use 3 instances of GC (Pilot, FO, and Middle Efis) potentially you could run 6 if every monitor had its own display. 

Question 2b.  You can always run pmfilecheck, for me, if I can brows the network to all the folders, thats usually a good enough check. but if you want to run pmfilecheck, go for it.

Question 5, I don;t use the instructor station right now, and it has probably changed so much but there must be a way for you to look at KEVV and make sure all Fixes are turned on (the moving map) you could be able to zoom in and read all the identifiers..  I could be wrong, been a long time since I used the Instructor station.

Question 6, I never found a way to reallign the runways or change the runway identifiers on P3d.  The App Course and and ILS Frequencies were in the PM Navdata, and you would just have to know if the cdu said Rwy 19 when you landed on it it may have said 18 on the pavement.  But if you know how to do this, then great.  I don;t run P3D anymore so I never experimented with this.

I have no idea what what other release of navdata is or where it comes from. sorry.

Good Luck

Trev