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Are TV's the way?

Started by rhysb, September 17, 2012, 02:01:06 pm

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HondaCop

Actually Steve, I just checked and I have 4 more days to return the 50" and change it for the 60" model (UN60EH6000) for just $300 USD more! You think this would be the better move and by going with 60"s, I ensure better FOV and coverage once I get the other two 60"s?

Jetcos

60" are better, $300 difference? I would switch

(All the projection guys are probably rolling their eyes now  LOL)   ::)
Steve Cos
Flightdeck Solutions, Newmarket Ontario,Canada
Special Projects and Technical Support

HondaCop

Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 02:37:37 pm
60" are better, $300 difference? I would switch

(All the projection guys are probably rolling their eyes now  LOL)   ::)


Yup, I will make the switch tomorrow. BTW, at 60", what would be a good distance to have the TV behind your MIP?

Jetcos

From the front of the nose the front TV is about 12"-14" away. From the MIP they are almost 24" apart.
Steve Cos
Flightdeck Solutions, Newmarket Ontario,Canada
Special Projects and Technical Support

Kennair

Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 04:23:50 pm
From the front of the nose the front TV is about 12"-14" away. From the MIP they are almost 24" apart.


Steve, how do you find that viewing distance over time?  I mean you wouldn't normally sit that close to your TV and I was wondering the effect after flying for some time, perhaps hours.

Ken.
Intel i73770K | 16Gb RAM | GTX680 | Win7-64 | TH2GO | 3 x 42" FHD LCD TV's | FDS CDU | OC MCP, EFIS, COMMS | Aerosim Throttle | Sim-Avionics DSTD+ | FSX P3D XP10 | FTX | FSGRW | REX2E | Aivlasoft EFB| PFPX | FTG |Kennair

HondaCop

Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 04:23:50 pm
From the front of the nose the front TV is about 12"-14" away. From the MIP they are almost 24" apart.


Thanks

jetpilot

Hi Frank,
Is there a chance that you post a little video of your setting: I would really like to see how the front view looks like from the captain side.
I am considering to go with tvs instead of projectors.
Thank you
Roberto C

HondaCop

Steve, let me throw an "eephus pitch" and ask this... How about DLP TVs? Can these be used with flight sims?

For the price of the 60" Samsung LED-LCD, I can get this Mitsubishi 73" DLP:

http://www.amazon.com/Mitsubishi-WD-73C12-73-Inch-1080p-Cinema/dp/tech-data/B007TGKLXO/ref=de_a_smtd

What you think? Any pros/cons of going with a DLP TV instead?

Jetcos

Not an expert on DLP TV's but did search around and found this explanation:

http://www.lcdtv.net/guide/lcd-vs-dlp

I am not sure if DLP is the best choice, wonder if anyone is using DLP's now and can comment?
Steve Cos
Flightdeck Solutions, Newmarket Ontario,Canada
Special Projects and Technical Support

HondaCop

Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 05:44:41 pm
Not an expert on DLP TV's but did search around and found this explanation:

http://www.lcdtv.net/guide/lcd-vs-dlp

I am not sure if DLP is the best choice, wonder if anyone is using DLP's now and can comment?


Yup, when I was shopping around for a projector for my home cinema setup, I first tried a DLP projector by Optoma, and granted it was not the top model, I did experience some RBE (Rainbow Effect) with it and thus went with an Epson 8450 LCD projector instead.

I see this as the only real con against going with a DLP over an LED-LCD, especially with a flightsim, where you have so much rapid movement on screen.

I think I will head to BestBuy tomorrow and personally look at their DLP TVs and see if I experience any RBE with them. Like I said, I might have experienced RBE with the Optomo because it was what I believe a 4x color wheel and this was 2 years ago. Maybe these newer DLP TVs have faster color wheels and RBE won't be a factor.

Honestly, I think the best bang for the back would be that 73" DLP.

ETomlin

Already thought about the projector TVs. The main issue is the viewing angle is very narrow compared to the LCD/LED screens.
Eric Tomlin
Flight Line Simulations
www.FlightLineSimulations.com (new site)
Integral Lighted Panels, Products, Consultation, & Suppliers

HondaCop

Quote from: ETomlin on September 20, 2012, 06:37:58 pm
Already thought about the projector TVs. The main issue is the viewing angle is very narrow compared to the LCD/LED screens.


hmmm Wouldn't the viewing angles be head on, if using three 73" DLP TVs? Obviously, the middle TV would be facing you and the two corner ones would be slightly angled which would also put them almost head on to your view?

nicd

Interesting discussion!

A few years back I toyed with the concept of mounting back-projected screens onto the 737 frame so that each projected image appeared "on" the window surface, and within each physical window frame. Had some encouraging results with that but couldn't resolve the issue of how to present the central image properly (i.e. what you see looking through the front 2 windows). That is - with those two windows at around 40 degree angles to the view, the singular projected image was seriously warped inwards from the centre. It's like having a widescreen monitor and bending it in half around the centre pillar of the cockpit.

I wasn't aware then of being able to split the one virtual view over 2 displays (projected or TV) using the DH2GO. Would be keen to see pics/video of how this works for people who have tried it.

The cheapness and quality of TVs means this concept might be worth a revisit. However, for me I'm not a fan of the stand-off approach where TVs are mounted away from the cockpit and bezels are visible (even if they are small).

What I can envisage is having 5 TVs - each one mounted to the outside cockpit frame so that eachTV screen "becomes" the window glass, and the TV bezels are hidden behind the cockpit window frame elements as much as possible. Might be dreaming here, but if the right size TVs can fit each window space then it might work. Think the difficulties would be finding the right TV sizes, mounting so bezels are relatively hidden, and how to handle zooms for smooth perspective if different TVs are used.

Interested in anyone's thoughts or experience with this or similar...

rhysb

Quote from: Kennair on September 20, 2012, 04:29:28 pm
Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 04:23:50 pm
From the front of the nose the front TV is about 12"-14" away. From the MIP they are almost 24" apart.


Steve, how do you find that viewing distance over time?  I mean you wouldn't normally sit that close to your TV and I was wondering the effect after flying for some time, perhaps hours.

Ken.


Ken,

On a flight you probably spend 70% of your time not looking out the window. I certainly do anyway :)
One wheel landings, tail scrapes... just doing my best!!
737 classic sim. Xplane 10 64bit on 3 i5 pc's. FDS IBL overhead, FDS CDU's & CCU's, Simvionics Panels, CP Flight MCP/EFIS, engravity & homemade MIP, prosim737, project magenta, GLB interior panels.

edward57

I too have gone down the 3 TV route...

I use 3 X (cheap) 40" LCD TVs on Eye-Infinity 1920X1080 resolution presented as 1 large! window view but have found some issues. (with bezel adjustment 6188X1080)

Running FSX - Framerates!..  I have had to go to a monstorous! computer to get reasonable framerates, currently the specs are:
I7-990X (OC to 4.34GHz), 24GB DDR3, Vertex3 (sata3) 240GB SSD (1 each for System & FSX drive) and an ATI7970 3GB graphics card and still it jerks around busy scenery (FTX is really bad!) particuarly running REX Essentials.

Also setting up eye-infinity with TVs is a nightmare in itself as using the Display Port (as required) to HDMI is different than DVI-HDMI and the Display port gave you overscan on one TV so nothing lined up.  After months of trying it worked with hardware that ATI said it wouldn't work with..  DVI-HDMI cables X 2, and a PASSIVE! Display Port to VGA! adapter.. and the overscan problem was gone.

Now the TVs I used must be the worst in the world for setting up this type of sim as I have bezels 2" wide!..
So I am researching the projector options, possibly with 2 short throws and a 135' screen (don't have room for a full wrap around) then maybe I can recover the framerates - Athough reading what other people have done, maybe there are other issues at play here.

There is no way I could consider 5 TVs (even though the video card supports 6) as the death in framerates would make it un-flyable.

here is a video of my sim in action with the TVs.. ( I dont have windows yet..) but it will be enclosed eventually.
Hand Flown approach into St Maartens (FSX) in my 737-800 Simulator 
(jump to about the 6min mark for the landing.)

Nat Crea

September 21, 2012, 03:13:43 am #40 Last Edit: September 21, 2012, 05:08:30 am by melnato
Quote(All the projection guys are probably rolling their eyes now  LOL) 


Nah...rolling over in my grave! And you have seen my work first hand Steve...shame  ;D

Seriously...TV's?...Come on...

FDS B777 220FOV with Sol7 by Nat Crea


HondaCop

Quote from: melnato on September 21, 2012, 03:13:43 am

Quote(All the projection guys are probably rolling their eyes now  LOL) 


Nah...rolling over in my grave! And you have seen my work first hand...shame  ;D

Seriously...TV's?...Come on...

FDS B777 220FOV with Sol7 by Nat Crea


Do you have a blog or website where one can see your build and how it's setup?

You know, you guys now have me on a bind on whether I should stick with TVs or simply go with projectors! hahaha Regardless, I will return my 50" HDTV today and put the money away until I make my mind on whether it will be TVs or projectors. lol

jackpilot

My grain of salt
I tend to agree with Rhys.
Except for the airports eyecandy/take-off and short final I am busy inside.
Nevertheless I was spoiled with some "far North" 180° view and loved it..lol
My 2¢:
1)Concentrate energy and budget on the inside until it is "finished and 100%flyable"
2) Then only spend your cash on a "visual on steroids".
I do all my building and testing with a one projector 8 feet front view which is quite satisfactory for the purpose.
I have seen the latest ultra thin bezel TVs and I think the results would be awsome as I flew with a 3TV setup at FDS some time ago and I was favorably impressed.


Jack

Boeing Skunk Works

I am probably going to use the TV method for the rebuild. I experimented with a 32" for the side view out the left side of the cockpit and I was most impressed with the view. This was about 10" from the side windows with the angles of the sidewalls, but it left a bit of blank space below the window frames. Not good if you're looking out and down. Other than that they would work fine.

A 42-47" would be much better for the look-down views as of course they cover more area. For the front views I haven't decided yet, but will probably stay with 32" monitors up close to the windscreen as they more than fill that area of opening.

Why yes...I am a rocket scientist...

Boeing, Collins, Gables, Sperry, PPG, Korry, Pacific Scientific, Honeywell

ETomlin

Quote from: melnato on September 21, 2012, 03:13:43 am
Quote(All the projection guys are probably rolling their eyes now  LOL) 


Nah...rolling over in my grave! And you have seen my work first hand Steve...shame  ;D

Seriously...TV's?...Come on...

FDS B777 220FOV with Sol7 by Nat Crea



If projectors had near the same resolution and contrast, I'd say the tv route is nuts if price and room size are negated. However, tvs are superior in several ways in addition to these. Just ask Mauruce who has three projectors that are now discontinued and one is going bad. Replacing a bad tv might be far simpler. In addition, as much as I'd love a wraparound screen I think for the amount of time that you're looking outside flying jets that the tv route is a sound choice all things considered. The best thing for building these visual systems to me would be a flexible 92"+ LCD screen.
Eric Tomlin
Flight Line Simulations
www.FlightLineSimulations.com (new site)
Integral Lighted Panels, Products, Consultation, & Suppliers

Maurice

Quote from: ETomlin on September 23, 2012, 11:00:54 am

Just ask Maurice who has three projectors that are now discontinued and one is going bad. Replacing a bad tv might be far simpler.



You've got that right Eric. Bad pixels on a TV screen are barely noticeable but when projected, they are quite magnified and depending on whether they are black or white, can be quite annoying. Once you start losing pixels on a projector, it goes bad very fast. I started with 3 bad pixels and a couple of weeks later, there are probably over a hundred and growing in numbers.

I still love the big wraparound view but if was to do it over, I would forego the full wraparound for better clarity and less hassles with installation, repairs or replacement if necessary. My 2 cents of course  :)

Like I mentioned above, I do think the monitors/TVs need to be the same size. You cannot compensate for a size difference with the zoom factor (see my reasons in earlier post)

Maurice
Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

HondaCop

Quote from: ETomlin on September 23, 2012, 11:00:54 am
In addition, as much as I'd love a wraparound screen I think for the amount of time that you're looking outside flying jets that the tv route is a sound choice all things considered.


The main reason to have a wraparound screen, is not for bragging rights or for looks. It's for peripheral vision when you need it the most when landing and also useful for looking for traffic, flying visual approaches, taxiing, takeoff roll, etc. To say that it's not needed because most of the flying is done by instruments is nonsense. If this was indeed the case, you know how much money Level-D sim operators would save by just slapping one large HDTV in their simulator and calling it a day? lol

Maurice

Quote from: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 07:48:20 am

The main reason to have a wraparound screen, is not for bragging rights or for looks. It's for peripheral vision when you need it the most when landing and also useful for looking for traffic, flying visual approaches, taxiing, takeoff roll, etc. To say that it's not needed because most of the flying is done by instruments is nonsense.


Well, I do have a wraparound screen and I could not disagree with you more. I don't know how many times I have landed or taken off somewhere and did not even see that there was a plane on the runway (not flying on VATSIM of course). I would have seen them with an LCD TV. So, clear vision is much more useful than peripheral vision safety wise as the many casualties on my landings would testify if they were still alive  :)

I will soon post a movie of 2 commercial pilots flying my sim on a short flight from Zurich to Geneva. I can say for sure that the only time they were even aware of the wraparound visuals were while taxiing. The rest of the time, they were looking down at their charts or doing cockpit preparations. Even on short final, they never looked to the sides; they were either staring at the instruments or looking straight ahead at the runway.

Wraparound visuals are strictly a luxury for home cockpits. Yes, they are very nice but it all depends on your real purpose for building a flight deck. If you are just or mostly doing VFR flights, wraparound definitely is the way to go but it's just eye candy for normal IFR airline operations. Depth perception on the other hand like they have in collimated displays would be so much more useful.

Having said that, I'm not trying to convince anyone one way or another. This is just what my experience has been and what I think now that I do have wraparound visuals. The anticipation was way better than my actual experience after I got past the initial WOW effect  :)

Maurice

Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

HondaCop

Quote from: maurice on September 24, 2012, 09:24:12 am
Quote from: HondaCop on September 24, 2012, 07:48:20 am

The main reason to have a wraparound screen, is not for bragging rights or for looks. It's for peripheral vision when you need it the most when landing and also useful for looking for traffic, flying visual approaches, taxiing, takeoff roll, etc. To say that it's not needed because most of the flying is done by instruments is nonsense.
I don't know how many times I have landed or taken off somewhere and did not even see that there was a plane on the runway (not flying on VATSIM of course). I would have seen them with an LCD TV. So, clear vision is much more useful than peripheral vision safety wise as the many casualties on my landings would testify if they were still alive  :)


Of course, if you are running projectors on 640x480 or even 800x600, going with a higher resolution LCD will make a world of difference in making out details such as small aircrafts on the runway while you are on approach or taking off. If you can have wraparound visuals using 1080p LCDs for at least a 180 degree view, then we arw talking. lol



blueskydriver

If the wrap around is not as important and the fps is, why are we all trying to use the multiple undocked windows? With just one large window the fps are great in FSX with the projectors. Yes, LCD would likely still look better, but there has always been a debate over fps vs resolution and LCD vs Projectors. Too me, the fps is the most important because you can have a low or high resolution, but slow fps is just a better looking slide show with higher resolutions.

Maybe, the 3 projector folks could all switch back to one large view; especially, since the point is being made that not a lot of time is spent looking out the windows while in IFR. If that is the case, then one large faster view over the slower 3 undocked + background views would be the better choice.

Hey Maurice, the next time the real pilots visit, setup just one large view and see what they think? Not to make a point or side one way or the other, but just to see what they like or dislike about it. Next time I fly I will do the same. Actually, I was flying like that at first and had no real problems with it...really loved the 50-100fps everywhere.

John
| FSX | FDS-MIP OVRHD SYS CARDS FC1| PM | PMDG 737-700 | UTX | GEX | UT7 | ASE | REX2 | AES | TSR | IS | TOPCAT | AvilaSoft EFB | OC CARDS & OVRHD GAUGES| SIMKITS | SW 3D Lights | FS2CREW2010 | FSXPassengers | Flight1 AE | MATROX TH2GO-D | NTHUSIM | 3-Mits EW230Ust Proj |

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