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Are TV's the way?

Started by rhysb, September 17, 2012, 02:01:06 pm

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ETomlin

A 5-screen wrap around of bezel-less hd TVs at 65" apiece. That's what I want. What I get is entirely up to what's affordable when I upgrade from my current single projector setup. ;-)
Eric Tomlin
Flight Line Simulations
www.FlightLineSimulations.com (new site)
Integral Lighted Panels, Products, Consultation, & Suppliers

Garys

October 01, 2012, 05:09:22 am #76 Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 10:09:09 pm by Garys
Now that this topic has died down a bit, I think its been humerous to sit back and watch all the arguments for TV's. 5 years ago, before short throw projectors and image warping software, seamless wrap around visuals were the "Mount Everest" of cockpit building. Every builder would have given anything to have what we have available at our disposal today.

Also dont forget, Level D simulators are for training pilots for aircraft type ratings, simulating failures and aircraft ops in adverse weather conditions. Lots of head down stuff. In the real world pilots look out the window alot. A great video that was posted here awhile ago should be a reminder of that.

Gary

http://youtu.be/nYDba1UsgHc

XOrionFE

Awesome Video Gary.   I never saw that before.

And I agree that the Mount Everest was wraparound projection which many of us have.  The problem is that we get greedy and now want wraparound projection with the HD quality of LCDs.    That would be the new Utopia.   Either via projectors or bezeless large format LCDs.    I think having had the projection wrap around for over a year now I just would love not to have to deal with the warping (hence LCDs) and I would like the contrast and clearity that LCDs have.  If I could have those to things out of projectors I would be in heaven.  But alas....it aint going to happen any time soon I am afraid.  At least not at a reasonable price for the home builder.

Again, nice video, thanks for sharing it.

Scott

MLeavy737

October 01, 2012, 10:06:49 am #78 Last Edit: October 01, 2012, 11:23:51 am by MLeavy737
Sweet video :)  i just got one of those GoPro HD cameras for riding motocross a few weeks ago.. I  think i'm gonna have to take it with me to work!!

Mike L
The 737 800/900... Fastest airplane with the gear down!

fsaviator

Quote from: MLeavy737 on October 01, 2012, 10:06:49 am

Sweey video :)  i just got one of those GoPro HD cameras for riding motocross a few weeks ago.. I  think i'm gonna have to take it with me to work!!

Mike L


Mike, does that mean we might look forward to some great NG cockpit videos?
Warren "FSAviator"
http://www.B737NG-Sim.com  |  https://www.facebook.com/fsaviator/
P3D45/ Prosim737 2/ ACE Dual-linked Yokes/ RevSim Proline TQ and Dual-linked Rudders/ CPFlight MCP PRO3 and EFIS'; MIP737ICS_FULL and SIDE737; Forward and Aft Overheads; Pedestal/ FDS MIP

MLeavy737

Well see Warren, have to see what kind of trouble that could get me into lol. Not sure who that was in the video however i know most airlines outside the USA are a bit more relaxed with stuff like that.

Mike L
The 737 800/900... Fastest airplane with the gear down!

rhysb

Quote from: MLeavy737 on October 01, 2012, 11:50:09 am
Well see Warren, have to see what kind of trouble that could get me into lol. Not sure who that was in the video however i know most airlines outside the USA are a bit more relaxed with stuff like that.

Mike L


Europe is just as stringent mike, I know it's against company policy for those I have worked for and speaking to an easyjet pilot the other day one of their pilots was kindly asked to take down a load of videos from YouTube before clearing out his locker!
One wheel landings, tail scrapes... just doing my best!!
737 classic sim. Xplane 10 64bit on 3 i5 pc's. FDS IBL overhead, FDS CDU's & CCU's, Simvionics Panels, CP Flight MCP/EFIS, engravity & homemade MIP, prosim737, project magenta, GLB interior panels.

fsaviator

Quote from: rhysb on October 01, 2012, 01:28:44 pm
Quote from: MLeavy737 on October 01, 2012, 11:50:09 am
Well see Warren, have to see what kind of trouble that could get me into lol. Not sure who that was in the video however i know most airlines outside the USA are a bit more relaxed with stuff like that.

Mike L


...one of their pilots was kindly asked to take down a load of videos from YouTube before clearing out his locker!


Well we definitely don't want that to happen.
Warren "FSAviator"
http://www.B737NG-Sim.com  |  https://www.facebook.com/fsaviator/
P3D45/ Prosim737 2/ ACE Dual-linked Yokes/ RevSim Proline TQ and Dual-linked Rudders/ CPFlight MCP PRO3 and EFIS'; MIP737ICS_FULL and SIDE737; Forward and Aft Overheads; Pedestal/ FDS MIP

MLeavy737

Well ya'll will just have to come over and fly with me in my sim someday then instead.  Will be just like the real thing anyhow :):)

Mike L
The 737 800/900... Fastest airplane with the gear down!

tennyson

October 01, 2012, 02:11:29 pm #84 Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 01:26:16 am by Trevor Hale
Quote from: Garys on October 01, 2012, 05:09:22 am
Tv's are neanderthalic.

Gary



So, all of the people who use TV's for their visuals are neanderthals? Or the inanimate TV units are neanderthals?



Frank Cooper

Garys

October 01, 2012, 04:32:10 pm #85 Last Edit: October 02, 2012, 12:06:27 am by Garys
You've certainly taken what I wrote out of context. I dont know how long you have been on the building scene Frank but many of us here remember the trials and tribulations of those experimenting with seamless projection setups and the reasons for doing so. And for the record, I meant Tv's in there current large and bulky form are still primitive. Judging by the comments, I believe your the only one who didnt get that.

Gary

fordgt40

Quote from: Garys on October 01, 2012, 05:09:22 am
A great video that was posted here awhile ago should be a reminder of that.

Gary

http://youtu.be/nYDba1UsgHc


Gary

Those visuals were good enough for me - were they generated by TV or projection?  :)

David

Garys

Quote from: XOrionFE on October 01, 2012, 07:12:48 am
Awesome Video Gary.   I never saw that before.

And I agree that the Mount Everest was wraparound projection which many of us have.  The problem is that we get greedy and now want wraparound projection with the HD quality of LCDs.    That would be the new Utopia.   Either via projectors or bezeless large format LCDs.    I think having had the projection wrap around for over a year now I just would love not to have to deal with the warping (hence LCDs) and I would like the contrast and clearity that LCDs have.  If I could have those to things out of projectors I would be in heaven.  But alas....it aint going to happen any time soon I am afraid.  At least not at a reasonable price for the home builder.

Again, nice video, thanks for sharing it.

Scott


No Problem.

I think the loss of clearity of our projectors currently is due to trying to project an image across a surface area that really should be covered by 5 projectors and not 3. Adding the extra 2 projectors would enable us to move the projectors closer to the screen, decreasing individual pixel size therefore increasing picture quality.

Gary

Garys

Quote from: fordgt40 on October 02, 2012, 12:17:45 am
Quote from: Garys on October 01, 2012, 05:09:22 am
A great video that was posted here awhile ago should be a reminder of that.

Gary

http://youtu.be/nYDba1UsgHc


Gary

Those visuals were good enough for me - were they generated by TV or projection?  :)

David


Thats virtual reality Dave. We will have that someday  :D

Gary

Trevor Hale

That video freaks me out.  I cant believe how such little movements on that side stick make a big difference on the aircraft position.  Great video.
Trevor Hale

Owner
http://www.cockpitbuilders.com

Director of Operations
Worldflight Team USA
http://www.worldflightusa.com

VATSIM:

nicd

Quote from: Garys on October 02, 2012, 12:20:23 am
I think the loss of clearity of our projectors currently is due to trying to project an image across a surface area that really should be covered by 5 projectors and not 3. Adding the extra 2 projectors would enable us to move the projectors closer to the screen, decreasing individual pixel size therefore increasing picture quality.
Gary


Precisely!  working on it :)

tennyson

I see that a good few people are worried about the size of the bezel and opting for the more expensive units with the smaller bezels.

It is also an option to remove the screen completely from the bezel. They are just intact flat panels and can be removed quite easily.
Of course, there are considerations for some, about warranty being voided...

They work just as well without the added plastic case and for builders who have constructed elaborate screen set-ups, a frame to house 3 or 4 screens without bezels would be a breeeze.

Just a thought...


Frank

ETomlin

Thanks Frank. Great ideas.
Eric Tomlin
Flight Line Simulations
www.FlightLineSimulations.com (new site)
Integral Lighted Panels, Products, Consultation, & Suppliers

ETomlin

Okay, a few questions. I understand that the TH2Go typically just expands the forward view when used normally, but the way most builders use them is to have the center screen showing forward then the left/forward left and the right display as right/forward right. Do I have this right?
Eric Tomlin
Flight Line Simulations
www.FlightLineSimulations.com (new site)
Integral Lighted Panels, Products, Consultation, & Suppliers

Maurice

Quote from: ETomlin on October 07, 2012, 07:21:35 pm
Okay, a few questions. I understand that the TH2Go typically just expands the forward view when used normally, but the way most builders use them is to have the center screen showing forward then the left/forward left and the right display as right/forward right. Do I have this right?


Not exactly Eric. Normally the forward views do not show you the right & left sides. So all the views are actually expanded using the zoom factor and the side cameras angles are adjusted to match the expanded views so that you end up with true peripheral vision of 180+ degrees depending on your settings. Clear as mud, right? :)

Maurice
Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

ETomlin

I think that's what I might have been saying/thinking but I'm not sure. Hmmm...let me think on it.
Eric Tomlin
Flight Line Simulations
www.FlightLineSimulations.com (new site)
Integral Lighted Panels, Products, Consultation, & Suppliers

nicd

October 08, 2012, 06:23:37 pm #96 Last Edit: October 08, 2012, 06:26:45 pm by nicd
It's black art this stuff!  :)

I haven't tried Maurice's method so have no idea if one method is better than the other. Perhaps FSX provides better options in this regard?

The original 3-window method in FS9 was to use left-forward view, forward view, and right-forward view - with the left-forward view and right-forward view screen surfaces angled in at 45 degrees (to the forward view in the centre). Camera angles are not adjusted with these. This generally gives you proper perspective for what you can see out to the left and right.

This is the brain-ache bit... with this method you are actually seeing a combination of forward and side vision to the left and right. So, with the left-forward view for example, that view is a combination of 50% of the extended forward view and 50% of the extended left view (hence its name). So that's why, when you angle the screen/monitor/TV that is showing the left-forward view in at 45 degrees, the wrap-around perspective looks right.

To induce further brain injury, this can be optionally expanded by adding the LEFT view and RIGHT view to the ends of the wrap around - both at 90 degrees to the forward view (i.e. the centre screen/monitor/TV). This also gives proper perspective, but right through 270 degrees.
    _
/     \
|       |      (a rough diagram!)

I imagine that with curved screens and warping/blending the fundamental maths of this approach would be the same.

Just another way of tackling it .. hope that doesn't muddy the waters too much further!  ;D


Maurice

What really puzzles me Nick is why you would even consider 5 projectors when 3 is all you need to get full wraparound visuals. Or maybe you don't intend to use projectors. In that case that makes more sense but you had better have a big budget for computers to handle all these views if you do not want to see a slide show.

Maurice
Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

nicd

Yeah, 3 is "all you need", but with 3 projectors doing 270 degrees the pixelation and general quality are just not that great. That's why I agree with Gary's point above that 5 projectors would go a long way to addressing that issue.

Can you drive 5 screens successfully on one PC? .. don't know yet, but we'll see! Certainly not with FSX, but maybe with FS9. With extensive tweaking/experimenting I managed a stable 35 fps on a dual core with 5 views and 3 outputs, so I think it's worth a shot.

So what the heck... I'm going to die trying, not wondering :).  If I succeed I'll report back, if not I'll fly rubber dog s**t out of Hong Kong lol.

Maurice

Quote from: nicd on October 08, 2012, 07:22:16 pm
Yeah, 3 is "all you need", but with 3 projectors doing 270 degrees the pixelation and general quality are just not that great. 


Then the real question is why do you think you need to have 270 degrees? Do you really need to see what's behind you? But don't answer that question...you've obviously blown your last bit of sanity, so I don't expect to hear a rational explanation  ;D

Maurice
Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

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