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Are TV's the way?

Started by rhysb, September 17, 2012, 02:01:06 pm

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rhysb

Saw an impressive setup by Steve Cos that he was working on with 5 60" TV's for wrap around visuals and looked really good. I know the bezels pretty much disappear once your flying as the eye focuses elsewhere,

Then I saw this earlier:

http://www.currys.co.uk/gbuk/lg-55lm670t-full-hd-55-led-3d-tv-12848058-pdt.html?srcid=369&xtor=AL-1&cmpid=aff~e-tale~&istCompanyId=bec25c7e-cbcd-460d-81d5-a25372d2e3d7&istItemId=qqpxmxaq&istBid=t

Now the fact that off the shelf TV's with that thin a Bezel all of a sudden this could be the way forward? I know the cost is extreme but then again the price of a short throw 1080p widescreen projector is not far off!

One wheel landings, tail scrapes... just doing my best!!
737 classic sim. Xplane 10 64bit on 3 i5 pc's. FDS IBL overhead, FDS CDU's & CCU's, Simvionics Panels, CP Flight MCP/EFIS, engravity & homemade MIP, prosim737, project magenta, GLB interior panels.

Kennair

Its a great option in my opinion if you don't have the room to cope with projector views and you get full HD for the cost.  The only downside I see is that you really need 5 monitors in order to get the full wrap around effect whereas 3 projectors onto a curved screen will achieve the same wrap.  Those ultra narrow bezel LG's are great too.

Ken.
Intel i73770K | 16Gb RAM | GTX680 | Win7-64 | TH2GO | 3 x 42" FHD LCD TV's | FDS CDU | OC MCP, EFIS, COMMS | Aerosim Throttle | Sim-Avionics DSTD+ | FSX P3D XP10 | FTX | FSGRW | REX2E | Aivlasoft EFB| PFPX | FTG |Kennair

Jetcos

Curved screen and projectors are amazing. I have seen some great setups and brilliant work getting to that level. Room size is an issue for sure.

On the TV's, nothing says you can't start with 3 and work up to 5? Just hard to slip them by your better half when they are 60"+ in size. I also worked on a B777 with 3 x 70" TV's. Talk about big screens!  Sharp has 90" now. Just imagine.....
Steve Cos
Flightdeck Solutions, Newmarket Ontario,Canada
Special Projects and Technical Support

727737Nut

I have done both, TV's have way better picture and resolution and less headaches.  I have one on a motion sim now and it works great.
Rob
737 Junkie

tennyson

If you look at the size of the windows of a 737, you will discover that the front two windows are almost the same size as a 32" monitor.

The side windows can be both covered by 46" monitors.

I have built my sim like this and have my two forward screens mounted and functional. You need to slant them slightly to achieve the correct result, but it is quite a decent alternative to projectors.

You need to spend good money on your screens, tho. I bought Samsung high def lcd smart TV's and keep the hertz rating down, you want 100khz models.

I've got mine hooked up to a 3960x pc running two GTX 680's and a display port dual head to go, the output is spectacular.

I haven't mounted my 46" models yet,  as I'm still working on my sidewalls, but I'll throw a few pics up when I get close to finished.

Oh, and yes, I went this way, because I didn't have the room and didn't want to be flying with one 55" screen our front.

Here's a few snaps from a video I took a while back:






Frank Cooper

HondaCop

I went through this decision a few weeks ago too. In my case, it was a matter of space that influenced my decision. I went ahead and purchased a Samsung UN50EH5000 LED-LCD and I am very pleased. The bezel is thin, not as thin as the one on the OP, but it seems that for now, the only TVs with such thin bezels are the 3D ones. If you are not going to use the 3D side of the TV, it's too much of a premium to pay just for a few millimeters thinner bezel. This also goes for the SmartTVs. Do you really need 5 TVs with built-in Netflix and Pandora? lol

Anyway, my goal is to eventually get four more Samsungs unless space becomes available and I might just go back to my 3 projectors plan I had in mind.

rhysb

QuoteI have built my sim like this and have my two forward screens mounted and functional. You need to slant them slightly to achieve the correct result, but it is quite a decent alternative to projectors.


Just to confirm that your using 2 smaller 32" screens for the forward view? I take it then that you put the middle bezel behind the window frame?

I love some of the top projector setups and still being one of the few that flies with a single projector setup they seem like nirvana, but Steve really opened my eyes with the TV setup. And especially with the LED tv market so competitive now the prices are coming way down and  200hz motion flow Sony 46" LED TV's under £500 it makes them cheaper than the projector option!

Steve would you think that 60" would be minimum size or could you get away with mid 40" range up to mid 50" as these are coming way down in price?
One wheel landings, tail scrapes... just doing my best!!
737 classic sim. Xplane 10 64bit on 3 i5 pc's. FDS IBL overhead, FDS CDU's & CCU's, Simvionics Panels, CP Flight MCP/EFIS, engravity & homemade MIP, prosim737, project magenta, GLB interior panels.

tennyson

I removed my lcd's from their cases and they are sitting in pre-made window frames.

I also note that you mentioned the 200hz model. I think you will find that you will have better performance from 100hz models, as i stated earlier.

I paid about 700 bucks Oz each, for my 32" Samsung's, but the 46" models now are almost cheaper than that, so the market is just right for lcd sales.



Frank Cooper

XOrionFE

If someone would buy my 3 Mitsubishi's from me at a reasonable price I would move to LCD screens in a heartbeat.   Now mind you I have a pretty nice curved screen setup with 210 degree wraparound right now but I would much rather have the sharpness of the LCDs and the ability to get rid of the warping software requirement.

Scott

rhysb

Frank, why 100hz? I understand for Tv that anything over 200hz is a complete waste of money as its just filtering the same thing over and over and digital tv is only broadcast in 50hz but why should you only use 100hz for FLightsim?
One wheel landings, tail scrapes... just doing my best!!
737 classic sim. Xplane 10 64bit on 3 i5 pc's. FDS IBL overhead, FDS CDU's & CCU's, Simvionics Panels, CP Flight MCP/EFIS, engravity & homemade MIP, prosim737, project magenta, GLB interior panels.

Jetcos

We have been using 55" on 737's as it fills the windshield nicely. On the 777's we went bigger because of the size of the windshields.

I think it is more about preference and budget.

Steve Cos
Flightdeck Solutions, Newmarket Ontario,Canada
Special Projects and Technical Support

tennyson

I'm not 100% sure, but I talked to a lot of people in the know and they said that 100Hz was the best for computer display.

Apparently the higher rating (200Hz+) does not diplay as well, especially with movement.

I have been told this by more than one source.

Scott, you are the first person that I've heard with projectors to say that.
I've seen both systems and think that if you have the money and space and time, that long throw projectors on a single 270 degree screen are almost a perfect medium.

Having said that, the first time I fired up my 2 x 32" screens in the cockpit, I almost fell over (lucky I was sitting down). I wasn't quite expecting the immersion that it gave. The textures were so rich and the clarity of the scenery was truly breathtaking.Even tho I haven't got my two sidescreens in yet, I'm really looking forward to the day that I fire it all up and get that total cockpit immersion with the lcd's.



Frank Cooper

Trevor Hale

Hey Frank, I am curious, aren't you worried that the larger screens next to the smaller ones (For side views) won't look the same at the same resolution?  I am just curious how you will compensate for this.  (Or will you run the side views in an un-docked window to allow you to reposition them?)  I would think that the larger screen isn't going to just display "more scenery" its actually going to take the same view and stretch it isn't it?

Trev
Trevor Hale

Owner
http://www.cockpitbuilders.com

Director of Operations
Worldflight Team USA
http://www.worldflightusa.com

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rhysb

Quote from: Jetcos on September 18, 2012, 05:50:54 am
We have been using 55" on 737's as it fills the windshield nicely. On the 777's we went bigger because of the size of the windshields.

I think it is more about preference and budget.


Any idea on the A320? This would probably require larger as well I should think as the windows are bigger than the NG.

I see Samsung do a larger small bezel LED screen but a lot more expensive.
One wheel landings, tail scrapes... just doing my best!!
737 classic sim. Xplane 10 64bit on 3 i5 pc's. FDS IBL overhead, FDS CDU's & CCU's, Simvionics Panels, CP Flight MCP/EFIS, engravity & homemade MIP, prosim737, project magenta, GLB interior panels.

Kennair

Quote from: tennyson on September 17, 2012, 04:07:22 pm
You need to slant them slightly to achieve the correct result, but it is quite a decent alternative to projectors.

Frank Cooper


Frank, interesting you say you have your monitors slanted, doesn't this give an odd angular perspective?  I would have thought you'd keep them upright.  Also how do you find the front views with only two monitors rather than using the more common 3?  Is your flying effected with the bezels in the center.

Ken.
Intel i73770K | 16Gb RAM | GTX680 | Win7-64 | TH2GO | 3 x 42" FHD LCD TV's | FDS CDU | OC MCP, EFIS, COMMS | Aerosim Throttle | Sim-Avionics DSTD+ | FSX P3D XP10 | FTX | FSGRW | REX2E | Aivlasoft EFB| PFPX | FTG |Kennair

tennyson

September 18, 2012, 03:44:47 pm #15 Last Edit: September 18, 2012, 03:49:16 pm by tennyson
Ken,
To answer you first. I have two frames, similar to the size of the real window frame on the 737. The lcd's (minus their original plastic frame) are mounted in these frames.

The slant is needed to give the appearance of normal wondows for the cockpit, but strangely enough (and this is where buying good lcd's with non-reflective glass comes in) there is very little distortion.
In the real aircraft those windows are slanted at 45 degrees, but I slanted mine at about 20 degrees.

You gotta remember that those two screens are mounted low and about 1/3 of the screen won't be seen because of the way the windows are positioned. You'l have to trust me when I say, it's very realistic.

The centre separator is the same as the one in the real aircraft.

And Trevor, as long as I use the zoom feature on all of the screens, they will line up.
Obviously the zoom level will be different on the 46" screen than it is on the 32" screen.

You can do this by using two different sized lcd's, run two undocked windows from FSX and adjust the zoom. You will end up with the same perspective.

The only problem is, with undocked windows, the horizon tilts on each monitor, making it unuseable for the front two monitors, hence, use of the double head2go and making them one screen.

Pretty hard to explain here, but I have tried it with the family TV (lcd, 46") and my theory is right.


Frank Cooper


ETomlin

Frank


I'm super interested in your setup. I have a concern with you running two displays meeting in the middle; how does your setup not place the runway directly behind the center post and render it unviewable when lined up in the centerline landing?

If that is not a problem I can almost insure that I will go this route vs projection for all the reasons Scott mentions. Another issue I have is that with the Learjet, we have a huge wraparound windscreen, so it will be a challenge.

Eric Tomlin
Flight Line Simulations
www.FlightLineSimulations.com (new site)
Integral Lighted Panels, Products, Consultation, & Suppliers

tennyson

Eric, the two front screens are run with dual head2go, thus they present as one wide screen.

You use the bezel management software from Matrox to adjust for the centre staunchion. The view is exactly as if you were looking out the front two windows of the real 737.

The sidewalls, (the 46" lcd'sin the two side windows) each show left and right views.



Frank Cooper

Maurice

Quote from: tennyson on September 18, 2012, 03:44:47 pm

And Trevor, as long as I use the zoom feature on all of the screens, they will line up.
Obviously the zoom level will be different on the 46" screen than it is on the 32" screen.

You can do this by using two different sized lcd's, run two undocked windows from FSX and adjust the zoom. You will end up with the same perspective.

Frank Cooper


I don't think it is as simple as you say Frank. True, you may be able to adjust the zoom factor to line up the views, but what will happen as you start to move is that the transition of objects from screen to screen will not happen seamlessly. By that I mean that if you see a plane or other object on the edge of the front screen and it moves to a side screen (or you start moving), parts of it will disappear from view because of the different zoom factors. I have seen this with my projectors if the zoom factor is not identical for all views.

Now, whether that bothers you or not is another question that only you can answer. Just trying to help you manage your expectations. :)

Maurice 
Gravenhurst, Ontario - Canada

Jetcos

September 20, 2012, 11:11:49 am #19 Last Edit: September 20, 2012, 11:12:45 am by Jetcos
Just wanted to show a couple of pictures of a B737 we did. 3 x Sony Bravia 55" TV's.

Still setting up but once we were done it looked great and flew very well.

Steve Cos
Flightdeck Solutions, Newmarket Ontario,Canada
Special Projects and Technical Support

XOrionFE

Fantastic Steve!  Droollllllll......

Want to buy some Mitsubishi projectors at a good price??!!!   LOL  ;D

This is the way I am going someday if one of my beamers burnout....

Scott


Jetcos

Doing another one soon with Panasonic 55"  with small bezels. I haven't taken them out of the boxes (wanted to! but you can never get everything back in the box like they pack them) so will get more pictures after assembly.

I just wish I had pictures with the 70" TV's and the 777.

Steve Cos
Flightdeck Solutions, Newmarket Ontario,Canada
Special Projects and Technical Support

HondaCop

Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 01:38:14 pm
Doing another one soon with Panasonic 55"  with small bezels. I haven't taken them out of the boxes (wanted to! but you can never get everything back in the box like they pack them) so will get more pictures after assembly.

I just wish I had pictures with the 70" TV's and the 777.


Steve, I went with 50" Samsungs (UN50EH5000) which have a very small bezel. You think 3 of these will be good enough to replicate the visuals similar to those you posted with 55"s? I know they are a bit smaller, but was just wondering.

Kennair

Quote from: Jetcos on September 20, 2012, 01:38:14 pm
Doing another one soon with Panasonic 55"  with small bezels. I haven't taken them out of the boxes (wanted to! but you can never get everything back in the box like they pack them) so will get more pictures after assembly.

I just wish I had pictures with the 70" TV's and the 777.


Stop it Steve, you're giving me heart palpitations!

Just saw in my latest JB Hifi catalog they're advertising 80" LCD's!  A mere $11000 AUD.  Rack 3 of these up and drool!  :o

Ken.
Intel i73770K | 16Gb RAM | GTX680 | Win7-64 | TH2GO | 3 x 42" FHD LCD TV's | FDS CDU | OC MCP, EFIS, COMMS | Aerosim Throttle | Sim-Avionics DSTD+ | FSX P3D XP10 | FTX | FSGRW | REX2E | Aivlasoft EFB| PFPX | FTG |Kennair

Jetcos

Hi Ken, seeing TV adds for Sharp 90" TV's...imagine that installed!

50" and 55" are pretty close, with the small windows of the B737 that should work great.


Steve Cos
Flightdeck Solutions, Newmarket Ontario,Canada
Special Projects and Technical Support

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