Maurice's Visit to the XOrionFE Mancave

[XOrionFE]

Hello all and new members!   It has been a little while since I have made a post and that is because I have been busy selling off woodworking tools that took up a lot of my shop and rearranging my basement.   That said, I had the wonderful pleasure of having Maurice visit me last week on Thursday night.   First we went out and enjoyed some signature Chicago area fast food (Portillos) and Ice Cream.   That was followed by Maurice taking a few flights on my "Multipit" flying the Baron 58 with Flight1Tech G1000 around Chicago and in some nice Orbx NZ Scenery (picture below).   Next we jumped into the 737 and did a little flying with Maurice in the Captain's chair.   For those of you with projectors...don't dare ask Maurice what he thought of the visuals with my 3 60" displays running 1080p on FSX.  You might not like what you hear  .

Anyway, here are a couple nice pictures of Maurice enjoying some GA flying in the Baron.   Thank you Maurice and it was really great to have one of this hobby's greats over to visit my humble home.

Scott

[Nat Crea]

Great to see you had a chance to get together.

don't dare ask Maurice what he thought of the visuals

Im sure we'll hear about soon!

Shame you guys are so far from me and cant fly my humble NG

Nat

[Trevor Hale]

Awesome to see Mau back in the Chair...  I would love to know what Mau thought of the experience.

Trev

[ETomlin]

That's just not fair Scott!

MAURICE, TELL US what you think!!! We're all men...we can handle it! 

[sagrada737]

I suspect Maurice would say, "You can't handle the truth!" 

Seriously though...   Glad you had a nice visit Maurice.  Scott's Sim is an outstanding example of what a 737NG Sim should look like.  As for the displays...   Awesome!

Mike

[Maurice]

it was really great to have one of this hobby's greats over to visit my humble home.

Scott

"one of this hobby's greats" Didn't you mean hobby's dinosaurs? You should, because that 's how I feel after all these years 

Anyway, I had several reasons & objectives for taking this road trip & visiting Scott.

First, I got kicked out of my house for a few days because my wife's mother and her 2 sisters came for a visit. At our various advanced ages, none of us can stand sharing a bed with anybody else including my wife and I, which, incidentally, has saved our marriage. So, with 4 bedrooms in our house, I either had to sleep on an air mattress in the basement or get the heck out for a few days.

So one logical objective was to go and visit Scott as I was very curious to see his generic Multipit. More on that later

The next objective since I was in the general area at the time of the EAA convention was to drop in at Oshkosh and place a For Sale sign for my simulator in the bulletin boards where pretty much anything related to planes gets posted. I figured that with tens of thousands of aviation fanatics gathering to gawk at airplanes & gadgets of all kinds, someone might be interested in my simulator. So far though, not even one inquiry. Perhaps EAA'ers are saner than I thought 

I only stayed one day at the show as this must have been my 20th visit at least and all I was interested in were the flight simulation booths. All the usual high end vendors like Frasca, Elite ...were there but the most interesting for me was the new offering from Flythissim: http://www.flythissim.com/touchtrainer.php

Getting back to my visit with Scott, this was a very enlightening experience for 2 main reasons. The first one was how much I enjoyed flying his Multipit, VFR with sharp scenery on 3 monitors. If you haven't seen Scott's setup, check out his Youtube videos. Although I have enjoyed flying a 737 sim, I somehow enjoyed flying his multipit even more as the experience was much more like what I remember from my VFR flying days in a Cessna 172 and Decathlon.

I wasn't particularly interested in Scott's 737 simulator since I have a somewhat similar setup, but I was very interested in his TV visuals. All I can say is that I would trade my projectors for TVs in a heartbeat. In my opinion, even with the bezels and no full wraparound with only 3 TVs, I thought his visuals were immensely superior to mine. Maybe HD projectors would even out the experience but I seriously doubt it.

I also now fully understand the hype about XPlane, or at least the night visuals. Although I was not overly impressed by the sky colours at dusk or dawn (they look somewhat artificial to me),  the lightning effects during a night thunderstorm blew my mind whenever a lightning flash lit up the sky & ground and you could still see the runways & other lights on the ground.  It was simply SPECTACULAR on the 3 large TV screens and nowhere near what I have seen with FSX and projectors. I could have sworn I was actually flying during a thunderstorm.

Yes Nat, I know you will never be convinced otherwise nor am I trying to show you the error of your ways  , but after seeing what sharp scenery looks like with either FSX or XP and the simplicity of setting up the projectors (and maintaining them if needed),  I am more than ever convinced that if I were to ever start again, even HD projectors would be out of the question for me although I'm sure they would be a lot better than my WXGA projectors.

For the record, this is my opinion only and I don't mean to discourage anyone from choosing  projectors. It all depends on what is the most important feature for you and for me, being able to see sharp, lifelike scenery details on bright screens is a no brainer. In fact, to be perfectly honest, I prefer the visuals on Scott's Multipit with small monitors than my wraparound setup with projectors.  For the first time, I was able to truly appreciate the amazing Orbx scenery with just FSX.

Having said that, I truly understand the appeal that a full seamless wraparound screen has for many people including myself when I started. At that time, I thought this was the only way to achieve total immersion and perhaps it still is. But like everything in life, once you get what you dreamed about for years, it quickly loses is magic. 

After I marvelled at the big screen and the ability to turn my head and see scenery through the side windows, it did not take me long to focus on all the flaws instead. It wasn't very long before I started envying desktop simmers after seeing their videos on Youtube and seeing amazingly sharp visuals even on a single screen while I struggled to see important details like runway signs or other airplanes for that matter. More than once I didn't even see airplanes on the runway I was about to land on until the very last second.

Anyway, I had a great time at Scott's place and when/if my sim ever sells, I will have a few hard decisions to make about my next GA project. Based on past experience, I don't trust myself to keep it simple, so I may just choose the Flythissim option where everything including the PC running XPlane is included. I saw the demo and I was very impressed by the smoothness of the simulation with XPlane. But you don't have to buy their hardware and you can just buy their software and assemble your own system if you choose.

And last but not least, I am still salivating at the thought of the Italian sausage sandwich I had at Portillos. Good thing they don't have franchises in Canada or my life expectancy would be severely reduced by clogged arteries if the aggravations with my current simulator do not kill me first.

Thanks again Scott for your hospitality and for making my decisions quite a bit easier. After trying your Multipit, I know that I could have a lot of fun without the complexity of my full scale simulator and all the 'hiccups' I've had to deal with over the years which prompted my decision to try & sell it. I don't regret anything but it's time to simplify my life and get back to the pure joy of handling a GA airplane. This is what I started with and this is where I want to go back to again. That, plus the fact that moving my full scale simulator to a nursing home some day soon would be somewhat problematic. 

Maurice

[ETomlin]

Maurice, as usual this is excellent reading. Thanks for taking the time to write it all down to share.

[XOrionFE]

And of course I just have to say that it is all Eric's fault I got into this crazy hobby to begin with staring at his fantastic early Lear 45 build.    It's great to share it with guys like you though!

Thanks again for coming out Maurice and if anyone else is ever in my neck of the woods give me a shout.

Scott

[Nat Crea]

...even HD projectors would be out of the question for me although I'm sure they would be a lot better than my WXGA projectors.

LOL Mau, you're right I don't think Ill ever be convinced 
I'm glad you got to see XPlane and Scotts setups in person.

Don't forget HD= 2x Rez of WXGA(sorry cant help myself!):

WXGA = 1024000 pixels
1080p = 2073600 pixels

Nat

[Maurice]

Don't forget HD= 2x Rez of WXGA(sorry cant help myself!):

WXGA = 1024000 pixels
1080p = 2073600 pixels

Nat

Fantastic! so many more chances of losing a pixel or two with HD. But pray that this does not happen no matter how many pixels you have in your projectors.  Once you lose one, the projector will have to be replaced or repaired (assuming it  can still be fixed) because within a few days, you will lose dozens more and then hundreds. If you don 't believe me or Scott, do a Google search for lost pixels on projectors and see what other people say about that.

But let's just recap the other pros and cons of TVs vs Projectors

Setting up TVs.... a few minutes once you have made very simple inexpensive stands like the ones Scott assembled and you are in business.

Setting up 3 projectors ... Countless hours doing many very complicated and lengthy tasks.

First,  do all the calculations to figure out the space you will need for your screen, build a curved screen, mount projectors solidly near the ceiling, line them up properly, adjust the warping ad-nauseum to get it just right, keep tweaking the warping forever especially if the projectors move a little after someone walks on the floor above the projectors.

Last but not least, keep wondering how long the expensive projector bulbs will last. Once one of them blows (and it will, sooner than you think), move your entire simulator out of the way so that you can reach the projector, replace the bulb, redo the alignment and warping, repeat all that when the next bulb blows (or replace all 3 bulbs at once).

But you are 100% right Nat...this is all worth it so that you can really impress the occasional visitor because you sure as hell don't have too much time left over to really fly the beast after spending even more countless hours tweaking FSX, or figuring out how to interface all your beautiful hardware with XPlane, or fixing the endless little software or hardware bugs and never ever be totally happy with your expensive setup because something even better will always become available to tempt & torture you. 

Yes, this is a great hobby for masochists. But if flying is the actual ultimate goal, TVs are still a no brainer for me as far as I am concerned. But once again, decide what is important for you regardless of my personal experience or biases. I know how much a full seamless wraparound was important for me when I started and if relatively inexpensive large screen TVs had been available at that time, I would have ignored any advice and would have chosen projectors anyway because I was infatuated with the idea of seamless wraparound visuals.

It is quite possible and even likely that if my projectors were HD projectors, I would not even be thinking about replacing them with TVs and I would be just as happy as Nat is with his setup. So, let your heart decide and ignore old timers like myself who may be unfairly biased because of negative experiences.

Maurice

[rhysb]

Great reading Maurice. Would love to make the trip over to Scott's. best of luck with your new project and hope to see you in the virtual skies again soon!

Rhys b

[Nat Crea]

But you are 100% right Nat...this is all worth it so that you can really impress the occasional visitor...

Funny you say that Mau. I had an old friend and his son come over to fly last night (FSX)
and...it went PEAR SHAPED.
Computers froze, program crashes, stutters, weird LAN issues...all sorts of s--t
Ive never seen before.
So...how the hell do Simulators know when you have guests over??!!!!! Seriously...
Been thinking about XP10 again...

Nat

[Maurice]

So...how the hell do Simulators know when you have guests over??!!!!! Seriously...
Been thinking about XP10 again...

Nat

The only possible explanation is that those beasts captured a part of your soul while you were building them and are now alive with a malicious soul. Did you stroke it, praise it and worship it before your visitors arrived? 

I do really feel your pain. How do you think I got to this point myself? Got tired of wondering when my sim would have the next hissy fit (visitors or not)

Maurice

[Trevor Hale]

Funny you say that Mau. I had an old friend and his son come over to fly last night (FSX)
and...it went PEAR SHAPED.
Computers froze, program crashes, stutters, weird LAN issues...all sorts of s--t
Ive never seen before.

Kinda funny,  Least you can;t blame that one on Mau, he didn't come visit you...  But parish the thought if Scott starts to have issues LOL. 

[Nat Crea]

Rebooted the visual computers today to tease myself with a brief
Xplane fix, and the Centre Channel said Windows needed activation...WTF?
I can feel a rebuild/upgrade coming on...

Nat

[HarryZ]

When it comes to comparing tv monitors vs projectors in flight simulation it all comes down to what is important to the user.

If you don't have the space, using projectors with a curved screen is a mute point.  If you are running a commercial venue simulator, tv's are totally out of the question.  Some people want the crispness and clarity of a tv while others want the "feeling" of surround view. One could debate all night what is better so in the end, personal choice wins out.

And yes, figuring out the curved screen/projector mechanics can be a daunting task but like anything else it depends on how much experience you have in taking on the task.

I do the curved screen route commercially so prefer that. And it certainly comes with its challenges!

Having said that, I suffered a partition drive catastrophic failure last week on my E drive.  C (O/S) and D were fine but guess where FS X and pretty much all my other flt sim programs were loaded?!!! Although the data was saved on that E drive, so many files got corrupted that I'm now having to reload FS X and all the trimmings again....something I really didn't need at this time!!  Ah the joys of this hobby.

[jskibo]

Mau,

the important question is, did he let you play with that awesome drum kit?   

[XOrionFE]

Mau,

the important question is, did he let you play with that awesome drum kit?   

[XOrionFE]

If you are running a commercial venue simulator, tv's are totally out of the question.  Some people want the crispness and clarity of a tv while others want the "feeling" of surround view. One could debate all night what is better so in the end, personal choice wins out.

With all due respect Harry I totally disagree with this comment.   When running 3 60" TVs you get 145 degree of surround which is very nice and highly immersive.....add two more 60's like I did with X-Plane and you have 225 degrees of wrap around AND full clearity of 1080P resolution.   It is totally immersive just as much as projection and IMHO even more due to crispness and brightness of displays.   There hasnt been a single person that has seen my sim with projectors and now with TVs who hasn't agreed which is the best.  TVs winning hands down over and over.    For a Commercial Sim I think TVs are a much better way to go....people don't want to look at a bunch of blurry washed out scenery.   I do agree that there is a lot of personal preference but to say that running in a commercial venue is totally out of the question I think is a stretch and highly subjective.   Anyway, you are right, there is a lot of preference involved here.    Until you have actually sat in both options I think it is just hard to describe the differences but I know what they are.....   I guess if your selling Warpilizer this is bad news for sales but I think it is worth everyone thinking of setting a sim up commercially or for home use....should really check out both systems in person before making a decision.

Scott

[Maurice]

Mau,

the important question is, did he let you play with that awesome drum kit?   

I would have loved to but with my non-existent musical abilities, it would have been sacrilegious (although somewhat satisfying) to just create pure noise out of such fine instruments. 

Maurice

[ETomlin]

My friend Ron Rollo has an incredible (read: insane incredibly nice) LJ45 sim down the road 1.5 hours from me. He has a wrap around screen and I've only flown it once, and I loved (LOVED!!!!) being able to look over my shoulder and see up and back and around seamlessly, but I can tell you this: The image is not BAD but it's not great either. It works, and works well. I would love to go back and fly it today if I had the time, and it's available to me any time he's home and I'm down in his neighborhood. But, considering that he has an LJ45 with the nice wrap around visuals, it really makes me lean toward the LCD screen version simply because of all the pro's to that sort of visual knowing I can always fly the other system when the fancy strikes. This way, it can be tested on the same sim-type, no more than 2 hours apart from each other, and a true comparison can be made. What makes it even more tempting is that I was in Walmart earlier this week. A gigantic 70" screen was on sale for about $1600.00. It was awesome, and I can only imagine how incredible 3 of those would look, and have a heart attack imagining 5 of them. I feel like I would forget about the frames in about .5 second.

[HarryZ]

Hi Scott,

To date, I have not seen a commercial sim, either the high end or entertainment type, that uses tv's for their visuals. The minute you enter a bezel into the equation, there is a level of realism that is lost. Some people don't mind that at all while others want nothing to do with it.

While projectors can't match the clarity of a tv,  the new HD projectors have taken a big step narrowing the gap.  I guess a lot depends on the amount of realism that one wants. Realism to one person can differ with another person.  One person can view the tv and say I want nothing to do with viewing a television while flying while another may prefer it.

Surround screens can provide far larger areas of view which is important to some. Not as clear but more realism.

Not to worry about my selling Warpalizer :-)))  Flight simulation is only one small part of what that software is used for. The commercial applications are immense ie: back hoe training simulator 360 degree viewing area!  Also, Carlton University in Ottawa is building a 360 degree viewing dome flight simulator that will mimic stall feeling/awareness for pilots.  Never been done before.  You can see that tvs simply would not work in  those situations.  Again, it all depends on what the user wants and what he needs.

[XOrionFE]

different strokes for different folks.   I don't see the bezels but that is me.   I also don't see the edges so for all intents and purposes it is fully immersive.   You say you haven't seen any commercial sims using TVs?  I think most are.  Look at any FBO....Redbird simulators...Precision Flight Controls, Frasca, etc......all using LCDs.

Only the "for entertainment" systems are using projectors right now from what I have seen and that is probably because it doesn't really matter if you can make out the vasi lights clearly or not or whether they are all distorted from the warping.

Projectors are nice and I had them but I think the immersion and bezel arguments are pretty thin.    Anyway...we could debate forever this topic but like we have all stated...it is really personal preference in the end so nothing really to debate.

[cmdurney]

[quote author=HarryZ link=topic=3536.msg27889#msg27889



Yes I agree with you... Mike will agree too I think :-) all the airline sims I have trained in don't use tv etc because you don't see black bezels in your field of vision when you fly! I agree the tvs provide a more detailed picture but for me the bezels would take away the fill visual experience.
If I had the money to buy 5 large tvs ( I would feel to guilty to buy them though) I would get 3 projectors instead;-)

Technology is changing all the time...I think it would be to consuming to try and keep up! Just fly and enjoy this amazing hobby .




date=1375907373]
Hi Scott,

To date, I have not seen a commercial sim, either the high end or entertainment type, that uses tv's for their visuals. The minute you enter a bezel into the equation, there is a level of realism that is lost. Some people don't mind that at all while others want nothing to do with it.

While projectors can't match the clarity of a tv,  the new HD projectors have taken a big step narrowing the gap.  I guess a lot depends on the amount of realism that one wants. Realism to one person can differ with another person.  One person can view the tv and say I want nothing to do with viewing a television while flying while another may prefer it.

Surround screens can provide far larger areas of view which is important to some. Not as clear but more realism.

Not to worry about my selling Warpalizer :-)))  Flight simulation is only one small part of what that software is used for. The commercial applications are immense ie: back hoe training simulator 360 degree viewing area!  Also, Carlton University in Ottawa is building a 360 degree viewing dome flight simulator that will mimic stall feeling/awareness for pilots.  Never been done before.  You can see that tvs simply would not work in  those situations.  Again, it all depends on what the user wants and what he needs.
[/quote]

[Trevor Hale]

Threads going off on a tangent guys...  (Not a debate Projectors vs Tv's) That thread already exists..  Please keep the topic on track.

Trev