P3D Visuals with 3 Projectors and Immersive View Pro

[Masterploxis]

Hello All,

after many months i still have a big problem with the correct aligment of my P3D visuals.

I use a 3 projector solution with 3 separate Windows in P3D. The warping and blending is done with Immersive View 2 pro.

The warping done with Immersive pro is perfect. I really spend a considerable ammount of time to align everything.

In P3D i have Setup 3 separate Windows 180 degree FOV = 3 x 60 degree, zoom Level in all Windows 0,41 etc. These values have been taken from Windowmaker tool.

In P3D while i am on the ground everything is fine.
As soon as i am in the air, i see the especially in the middle window, the horizon Level is way too low.

I can rule out any mistakes with Immersive View Software. The effect i see must come out of P3D.
It must have something to do with the projection method P3D uses when the plane is in the air.

Does anybody had the same issues and is there a solution ? Please see the Attachements for a clear Explanation. It is pain in the ass to try to land a plane like this.



Thanks
Andy
www.masterploxis.de

[tennyson]

I am using P3D V2.4, 3 x high def short throw projectors running off 3 x high end PC's on a 188degree curved screen.

I tried for months to get my views right, with Fly-Elise Immersive Display pro.
In the end, I emailed Nikola, who suggested that I try using their Calibration Pro Software.
You can download it for free to trial it.

I did that. I knew after a few days that this was the answer, so I bit the bullet and bought 3 licenses for my Display Pro software (1 for each of the PC's).
It took me a lot of trial and error, but finally I ended up with the output files that you can transpose into your P3D or FSX installation.
I also used wideview, which is what you configure to show the three separate views.
My scenery is smooth and nicely warped and merged. I am still working on the blending, but I'm very close to getting that just right, too.

Here is a video that I put up here a little while ago, when I finally worked it all out.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLaDB0DMqaE

I've also got a bunch of test flights on my youtube channel there, showing the wrap around views.


Frank Cooper

[HarryZ]

Andreas,

In case you are not aware, I am a commercial dealer of the Warpalizer blending software and have been on the board for a couple of years.

I don't know much if anything about the Immersive software that you are using but from the pictures, your blended image on the curved screen is NOT right!  I don't know if it's the ability of Immersive or you may not have done it correctly but to put it mildly, the image is very poor!

Not only is the horizon badly out of alignment, you also have the overlapped projector area not blended properly. There is bright area where the projector images overlap and that should not be there.

Your image should be seamless, have a straight horizon and look as though it is one picture across the entire screen.  Both FS X and P3D have limitations to view areas over 135° but it is subtle and a fair amount of the distortion can be corrected by the blending software.

I doubt that Immersive produces a product gives you the results that you are showing but if it does, I think it's time to change software!

[jackpilot]

Just for the record
I have seen Immersive view pro at work here in Montreal during the setup of a commercial DSTD and once properly calibrated I can attest that the results are outstanding.

[HarryZ]

Just for the record
I have seen Immersive view pro at work here in Montreal during the setup of a commercial DSTD and once properly calibrated I can attest that the results are outstanding.

I've seen some Immersive displays and I agree it is very good. That's what prompted me to suggest in my message that the blending in Andreas' pics was not done properly.

[Masterploxis]

Hello Harry,

thanks for your reply. The image are not blended at all because this will be done after i foudn the correct warping settings. The symptom i am describing with the "egde" on the horizon just shows up when i am in the air and not on the ground with my plane. The main issue i think is not the warping and blending software - the issue comes from the wrong cmaera definitions i use in P3D. So i have the complete package of Immersive View pro and the Calibration package - so next thing i am going to do is to try the calibration module...

And yes - sorry for posting a misleading picture without correct blending setup. My main concern is the edge on the horizon while in air.

Cheers
Andy

[Sam Llorca]

And for the record, I've used both blending  software, I'm currently using Immersive Display Pro and for the first time I can say I'm happy, and everyone that attended WFT2014 noticed the difference.
Yes his settings according to the video needs calibration but since Immersive Display is so user friendly, I'm sure he'll have it running perfect in no time.
Yes I'm an ex-Warpalizer customer and happy about it, no comparison.
Great choice Andreas, Cheers.

[HarryZ]

And yes - sorry for posting a misleading picture without correct blending setup. My main concern is the edge on the horizon while in air.

Cheers
Andy

Until you blend your image, you won't know if the problem will remain or not. 

[HarryZ]

Yes I'm an ex-Warpalizer customer and happy about it, no comparison.
Great choice Andreas, Cheers.

Guess that quality is in the eyes of the user :-))  I've had high end  commercial users tell me that they have tried all the image blending software out there and Warpalizer does the best job. 

[tennyson]

Harry,
I'm not sure that your opinions are relevant nor necessary here.

The guy has bought his software and was asking for help, not opinions on other software.

As I said to you, earlier, in emails, mate, you don't need to hire anybody to fix your problems. You have all the software. If you have got to the point you are at, now, then fine tuning is where you will find your solutions.

It's also a matter of reading throo the manuals that come with the software and asking questions, such as you have done, that will get you to a finish point, that you'll be happy with.


Frank Cooper

[Masterploxis]

Hello Frank,

i had a look at your YouTube Video and i think you really have a 99% percent perfect warping and blending. The main reason why i hestitated to use the calibration module was  - i thought i need to dismount my complete Setup. But as i found out in the Manual that there is the possibility to do the calibration without a camera and the laser Thing.

So i'll get started to calibrate the visuals and i am sure after some time i will also have a satisfying result. I'll post my results...

So merry Christmas to all of you and we keep in touch.

Cheers
Andy
www.masterploxis.de

[Nat Crea]

If I may...
A "correct" warp and blend has NOTHING to do with
the software you use or is a P3D/FSX "problem",
It's all about technique. So let's not bash anyone or any companies.

There's no in between when it comes to visuals,
If it's not "right" it will never look right as Andy is
realizing now.
Jack saw one of my 200FOV visuals first hand in Montreal
so he opinion is unbiased.
Andy, I can't help you remotely, but email me your
location and if I'm ever nearby?

Nat

[HarryZ]

Harry,
I'm not sure that your opinions are relevant nor necessary here.
The guy has bought his software and was asking for help, not opinions on other software.

Frank,

If you read my e-mails carefully, you will see that I was not trying to sell Andy any new software but instead indicating that his blending was not done correctly to get the results that he showed in the pictures.  Well, that was very correct since he eventually told us that he had not blended yet!

I even stated that the Immersive product was good and also indicated as well that other high end users in the field felt that Warpalizer was their choice after a comment was made that  there was no comparison between  Warpalizer and Immersive.  Nat, who has a wealth of knowledge in this field, stated that the kind of blending software used doesn't make any difference to the end result but how the software is used does.  How very true!

So Frank, please don't say that my opinions are not welcomed or relevant here.  They may not be to you and that is your choice but it's statements like yours that only serve to start controversy. Andy thanked me for my comments and that is what is important to him.

People can use whatever software they want and that is their choice.  As Nat said, it's how they use it that will give them their final result.

[Trevor Hale]

Hey Guys,

Its the Holidays, and I can clearly see this going off track pretty quick. Lets not bicker, or twist words, clearly there is a difference of opinion here, but lets just push on and see if this guy can get some help, cause clearly he needs it by the looks of his images.

Instead of comparing one software to another, lets just help him get it fixed if possible.

Surely with the EXPERTS of both Warping software's active in this thread, I am sure you guys can help him!

Trev

[Andrew 737]

Hi Andy

Visuals are the very first thing I did, before I built 'either' of my two sims. I new this had to be right before I spent tens of thousands on the sims.

I bought Infocus PJ's, PC's etc. After weeks of tinkering It was never right, there was always something annoying! I was in the same boat as you mate - not happy with my visuals.

Disclaimer:
Gentlemen, my post here is aimed at Andy, please do not interpret the following to be directed at anyone else, ok? - thank you.

I found a 'PERFECT' solution by having Nat (Crea) come and do my visuals.

Nat's techniques are 'MAGIC', he is a very clever guy.

Like Nat said (BTW, Hi Nat, hope you are well mate?) perfect visuals have NOTHING to do with software or FSX/P3D; you have to know how to set it all up - Nat DOES know.

My advice would be for you to e-mail Nat on a Proffessional basis and have the Master come and do the Visuals for you.

Good luck


Sent from my iPhone

[meatbomber]

The problem the original poster has is trying to create a 180deg FaoV picture with only 3 views of 60deg each.

Imagine each view is created by a camera, now the front view of course tilts up and down when you pitch up and down but the side views  are created by cameras that actuall look 60deg to each side of the view, for them to horizon will tilt differently, this is easiest visualized if you imagine 3 cameras with 90 degrees field of view when the side cameras actually look 90deg to the side of the plane.. Now if you pitch up say 30deg. In the front view the horizon goes down forming a bow that's lowest in the middle of the screen and highest towards the outsides, but the side views then horizon is a straight line actually going up towards the middle of the 3 windows and down towards the outside edge!

In X plane immersive display has a plugin that can create up to 6 windows. I for example use 3 Projectors but 5 Windows of 42deg FOV in xplane for a total of 210 FOv and with more and more windows the kinks in the horizon get less noticeable. The max in the version I have is 6 but I choose 5 for performance reasons

This will happen if you have perfectly warped and blended your display to make the perfect picture on your curved screen.

[Andrew 737]

The problem the original poster has is trying to create a 180deg FaoV picture with only 3 views of 60deg each.

Imagine each view is created by a camera, now the front view of course tilts up and down when you pitch up and down but the side views  are created by cameras that actuall look 60deg to each side of the view, for them to horizon will tilt differently, this is easiest visualized if you imagine 3 cameras with 90 degrees field of view when the side cameras actually look 90deg to the side of the plane.. Now if you pitch up say 30deg. In the front view the horizon goes down forming a bow that's lowest in the middle of the screen and highest towards the outsides, but the side views then horizon is a straight line actually going up towards the middle of the 3 windows and down towards the outside edge!

In X plane immersive display has a plugin that can create up to 6 windows. I for example use 3 Projectors but 5 Windows of 42deg FOV in xplane for a total of 210 FOv and with more and more windows the kinks in the horizon get less noticeable. The max in the version I have is 6 but I choose 5 for performance reasons

This will happen if you have perfectly warped and blended your display to make the perfect picture on your curved screen.

I have to say that's 'nonesense' with FS or P3D (I have no clue about XPlane)

I have 3 windows and 210 FOV - my visuals are 100% perfect.

[Nat Crea]

A few facts:
Not only is possible to create OVER  200
degree FOV with 3 windows in FSX , P3D AND XPlane,
It is possible to output a true 180FOV with just
TWO windows.
It was hard to get the whole screen in the one shot,
but here are two different examples of recent 180FOV visuals
with 2 windows:

Nat

[Andrew 737]

A few facts:
Not only is possible to create OVER  200
degree FOV with 3 windows in FSX , P3D AND XPlane,
It is possible to output a true 180FOV with just
TWO windows.
It was hard to get the whole screen in the one shot,
but here are two different examples of recent 180FOV visuals
with 2 windows:

Nat

Nice Visuals!

[jackpilot]

2 windows ..2 projectors or 3  ?

[meatbomber]

Well then I guess the original poster and i have the same problem and are looking forward to be educated as to how to do it then

I'd like to know the settings of the previous posted pics.

The attached pic shows the worst part of the screen, the corner artifact needs still to get worked out

[Flying_Fox]

The problem the original poster has is trying to create a 180deg FaoV picture with only 3 views of 60deg each.

Imagine each view is created by a camera, now the front view of course tilts up and down when you pitch up and down but the side views  are created by cameras that actuall look 60deg to each side of the view, for them to horizon will tilt differently, this is easiest visualized if you imagine 3 cameras with 90 degrees field of view when the side cameras actually look 90deg to the side of the plane.. Now if you pitch up say 30deg. In the front view the horizon goes down forming a bow that's lowest in the middle of the screen and highest towards the outsides, but the side views then horizon is a straight line actually going up towards the middle of the 3 windows and down towards the outside edge!

In X plane immersive display has a plugin that can create up to 6 windows. I for example use 3 Projectors but 5 Windows of 42deg FOV in xplane for a total of 210 FOv and with more and more windows the kinks in the horizon get less noticeable. The max in the version I have is 6 but I choose 5 for performance reasons

This will happen if you have perfectly warped and blended your display to make the perfect picture on your curved screen.

I have to say that's 'nonesense' with FS or P3D (I have no clue about XPlane)

I have 3 windows and 210 FOV - my visuals are 100% perfect.

OK, now could the experts tell how the different tilt issue for 3 windows is handled exactly?

I use Immersive Display Lite 2. My projectors are Optoma GT720 with projection cone ~ 69 degrees so my view is roughly 206 degrees. All my windows definitions you can see in thread My testing of 3 windowed views (not 4!) approach  http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=3361.msg26448#msg26448

My visuals are perfectly aligned on the ground and in straight flight, however when I am in the bank  or nose hard up/down, I see the same issue - the horizon is bent differently in 3 windows. Here is the example:



This is the screenshot from my own flight video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5H-u4l24k70

According to this thread: http://www.mycockpit.org/forums/showthread.php?t=23199&p=137629&viewfull=1#post137629

>...i have noticed that even if image is perfectly aligned ...there are some issues especially on the runway lines are discontinuous and so far they match but are distorted after the matching line..and in the flight when the plane banks - the horizon distorts too

...I'm pretty sure I know exactly what you mean.

FSX produces standard perspective projections. Straight lines in space will be straight lines on the screen. Unfortunately, this means that these lines will be at different angles when viewed in different directions. Here's a thought experiment - think only of the horizon for a moment, and imagine that the plane is in a level banking turn. On a perspective projection, the horizon will be a straight line at an angle. But on a true spherical or cylindrical projection that wraps 180°, the horizon will be horizontal but low on one side, horizontal but high on the other side, and angled in the center. Overall, the horizon will trace a sinusoidal curve across the image. For a visual, take a look at the screenshot I included in the first post of this thread, showing a 360° view. This image is composed of 27 perspective-projection slices, so if you take a close look at the horizon particularly at the 90° point (the peak on the right side), you'll see that it is still composed of straight line segments.

If your edges line up, you're done messing with the .flt file. There's nothing more you can do from that side. There is software that corrects for this by allowing you to apply a custom warp to correct the perspective map to a spherical map in addition to the standard screen alignment warp, however this software typically retails for many thousands of dollars.

Can you comment, is that correct? I understand that software wledzian is talking about is ImmersaView WARP.

I still do more building than flying and I did not deal with image perfection yet.

Nick

[Andrew 737]

Hi Guys

No Artifacts
No Bent Horizons
Any Angle of pitch Or bank
210 degrees FOV
Superb Blend 'Day & Night'

And my Visuals are 'Perfect' Guys - seeing is believing.

Nat done em both here in the UK.

He came, He saw, He Conquered!

I was going to give up on my pit if the visuals were 'Afflicted' in 'ANY' way but they  are Perfect.

Nat does have 'Special' techniques and EVERY setup he does (I believe) is different but he gets the same result - perfect visuals.

[Andrew 737]

2 windows ..2 projectors or 3  ?

Hi Jack

My Cessna Pit has two PJ's & two windows.

[quid246]

Amazing work Nat!