New Year Grumble - New Year, and New Trash

[Trevor Hale]

Ok, Maybe it is just me... Or maybe I might actually be on to something here..  But regardless, I really need to ask something from all of you.  Am I out to lunch? (the expressed opinions in this post are of mine personaly, and do not reflect those of this website) LOL.   I am sure you are all familiar with the phrase "Those who can - DO!"  But if we would just stop and ask ourselves one question.  Can we paint? or should we just enjoy other people's art.  I think that is where this hobby is falling apart. 

Perhaps none of the above makes any sense, well let me try to explain.  I was just trolling the net, and found yet another person that has decided to "Start Building" Parts to sell to the flight sim community.  I mean, It is obvious that some people are just looking for a "Get Rich Quick" Scheme to take our money for the least ammount of efforts.   I went by SimMarket, and this is what I found.



I mean, for 331. Euro's I can think of a lot better things to buy.  Not to mention this followed by a webpage that has been launched incomplete, because the guy just wanted to get his trash out in the open. 

Although from a good standpoint when I see this crap, and then I see the quality of Flight Deck Solutions, or Engravity Hardware I am more willing to part ways with my cash for the "Good Stuff" but I guess I just don't quite understand why anyone in this hobby feels that they can build quality parts.

I apologize if I have offended anyone, I am just really getting sick of everyone and their grandmother thinking that the product they build is going to be better then the one his neighbour built. Am I wrong?  Please tell me if I am..?

Trev

[jackpilot]

No you are not....but

There is a handful of serious people in this hobby, producing superb parts priced at an appropriate level which reflects the realistic cost of doing things and the end user purpose.
Design, research,testing, equipment etc  have a cost which has to be spread over a limited number of units. On the other hand no lives depend on these parts and high aerospace price tags are not justified.

We are fortunate to have here, at Cockpitbuiders.com, a solid crew of competent, serious and enthusiastic builders, who "have been there done that" and can make the difference between a good and a crappy product.

Would-be builders can be lured in by prices or good looking (from far) parts. And some people can be tempted to cash on that. But...this should not distract us from serious, innovative and exciting products which are constantly improved by some of our best vendors who stay alive and well because they manufacture quality products at a realistic price.
This is true for this hobby as well as for any other market.

Cheer up Trev, what we have collectively achieved is not short of an amazing feat!
Based on a software that was a "game" at first, we have now built very advanced and sophisticated Cockpits and we can share on a daily basis a formidable pool of knowledge.
And there is no room in there for cheap and crappy parts, from any source. Market will make the selection.

My 2 undervalued  CAD ¢

[Trevor Hale]

Well Said Jack.  I completely agree.  Good points for sure.

[XOrionFE]

I have a slightly different opinion,

While I dont think I would be interested in the item you just posted I am happy to see others contributing choices in the market.   The more competition out there the more we buyers can benefit.   What I have found in this market (as you pointed out in the past to me Trevor) is that you really have to be careful who you buy from and make sure you do research.   I have been screwed in the past by one vendor that advertises on another site as where a bunch of other people I know yet this guy is still out there pitching his "vaporware".     I have also seen some other vendors that look like they have a great product but you can expect to wait months for it.     The biggest wish I have is that more vendors with good products would spring up in the US because the Dollar to Euro conversion is a killer as is international shipping.

I will note the vendors who I think are great and will get my business over and over.....Paolo at CP Flight and by association I am sure there will be some engavity purchases in my future.   Open Cockpits has excellent service and products and finally, Aviation Megastore has to be one of the best Ecommerce storefronts I have had the pleasure to work with.  Nick at APHS is great to work with for real parts.  I have also ordered knobs from Nihad and a TQ from Simparts at this point.   

In short, I think it is great to have all of these choices but again would warn people to do the research on who they are buying from and make sure to get some references from other folks on this site and others before buying.

my .02

[Trevor Hale]

Oh Scott, you too have good points.  You do seem to mirror in a way what Jack was getting at.  In that, we all as successful builders have been around long enough to know where you can go to get "Quality" but in an effort to "Protect" the new guy in the hobby, I feel that there isn't anything that can persuade someone one way or another.  I just wish some people like this individual, would look at their product and compare it to others on the market, and ask themselves, if I saw this product next to someone elses, why would I purchase it.  that's it.

I am not in any way trying to stir up a debate here, I just wondered what all of your opinions were, and I like what I am hearing.

As for your Vaporware situation...  That just goes with my thoughts..  Why should that be allowed, and how can a community help protect against that?

Anyway...  its all good, you all have great feedback.

Trev

[ETomlin]

Trevor,

Scott and I have to be very careful in disclosing our personal issues with the aforementioned vaporware vendor. Let's put it this way- Sometimes folks choose to air the issues and sometimes they choose to sit down and keep quiet. This can be decided by so many factors. If someone chooses to keep quiet about it then it's likely because they are choosing either the 'high road' or trying to avoid causing further conflict.

I find myself often looking at low grade add on scenery with the disdain you expressed over the product shown above a lot more than when it involves hardware items. Building a home sim can sometimes begin with the same attitude that many folks begin learning guitar (and Mike can agree with me here)- " I just want something cheap that I can try to learn on so if I dont really care for it, then it's not a lot of money wasted". The problem with guitars is that if it's cheap, it likely wont be easy to play (physically) and yet the person will likely set it down to collect dust in the corner. Luckily, most hardware (even crappy stuff that's no good for 1:1 scale sim building) can be re-sold to folks that really dont know if they are committed to a single type of aircraft for their projects, and some equipment that's generic (like GoFlight) is EXCELLENT and while it only has an aviation look to it, most here know how durable/easy/reliable it is. This may be the case for the aforementioned TQ shown above. As Scott said, I think it helps folks get into the hobby and naturally if they plop down money for an inferior product and are a part of the community, we will all eventually hear about it.

Good post Trevor, thanks for bringing it up.

[jackpilot]

Just a note about choosing a vendor based on immediate availability of product.

We are so used to order things and get them overnight that we forget the very special aspect of these products. Especially for the plug and play , which are high ticket items, vendors cannot keep a fat inventory sitting idle.   
To get a Sim from CAE or an Airbus from Aerospatiale, you will have to wait months even years and have to  plan ahead. Same for our sims.

It is a delicate balance, specific to each situation, but planning must sometimes include  ordering an item before you actually need it, which allows time for a good research and compatibility with your setup. In that case waiting for a good product for a few weeks or months is not an issue.

One thing I learned is that if you want to fly a completed sim some day, you have to settle at one point for what is now available  and end the wait for (or the rat race to) the latest hard/soft, even if the market offers a new tech that involves redoing a large part of what has been done.. Otherwise it will never be finished.
Bit off topic but that's what a forum is all about,
Cheers Guys.

[AceTeam]

Oh Trevor. Oh Trevor.

Believe it OR not. Market exists for these kind of products. I know it's sad!

Compare this to looks of Go-flight throttle. I think this looks far more superior. At least I can put my hand on the knobs.

and cheaper too?

Just my 2 CAD cents. (what are they worth)

Ali - 737 Yoke Team

[Trevor Hale]

LOL.  I understand that, but it just seems one person sees a product, and think they can make something the same. 

Hopefully this is much better assembled then their webpage is LOL.

[ivar hestnes]

Interesting subject

There are a lot of vendors/private people that offers parts for sale. Some make crap for big money, some make top notch for reasonable money, and some are just copycats. It is our choice to take the time to do a research about if the product has a value to the money as we expect.

Many builders dont spend any time at all before they buy parts. They just pop out of the blue sky, and states: Hey I am going to build a sim. Have bougth this and this and this, then asks on the forums if it will work.

Many builders have only themselves to blame, if they get screwed. But also many builders that have spent alot of time researching and still have been screwed by "serious" companies with a glamorous website, which suddenly disappear. Many broken hearts and wallets out there.

I cant remember to have been tricked a single time. One place I had to wait a serious long time, but the parts arrived finally. Not the best product, but it was cheap though.

I select my vendors as carefully as I can. There are a very few on the TOP LIST. High quality, support when I need, good value for money. Parts that help me achieve what I dream about when I am building my crazy sim.

One thing that is becoming more and more common in this very small world of simulator building is that some vendor spend alot of time, money and efforts to make a top notch product. Then the next new big wannabe rich vendor, buys the parts, and duplicates it as if it was his product. I bet many of you builders can see the tendency. Simulatorbuilding is still a very small part of our world. And so it will continue for very long time. Probably forever. I dont give a new vendor a slightest chance if I know that he duplicated a excisting vendors product. There are many examples around of vendors that really do hard work on their products. I choose them, even if it costs more.

It appears to me that the most serious vendors out there is the guys that actually spend some time on helping others in one way or another

[shaneb]

Hey Trev,

I kinda had the same impression you had when I first saw this product. To me the product you mentioned looks like a beefed up knockoff of the GF throttle quadrant with a couple switches added.

.. but I remember eighteen months ago I started in this hobby not really knowing what I was getting myself into. I started out with a joystick stuck to the top of my desk, then added GoFlight modules, then built a very crude enclosed cockpit and I was hooked.

Eighteen months later I am working on a full scale Lear 45 . . all of the parts thus far have been made by myself or members of Hangar 45, or are actual Lear parts . . a lot different from the GoFlight products. The GF products served their purpose at the time and sparked an interest that eventually led me to start building an exact copy of a Lear as is possible.  I think the GF modules and other generic addons like the Saitek radios etc are what I call "in between" hardware . . you have moved up from flying with mouse and keyboard but not yet made it to building a full scale sim.

Good quality "in between" modules/parts may serve to introduce new FS addicts to the hobby and maybe that is their role.   But I have issues as you do when you see people introduce inferior products / don't deliver  / overpriced for what you get junk to the hobby.  I think sometimes that we also forget that full scale cockpit builders are not the only FS junkies . . others may really enjoy just flying their desk, or just having GF modules, or Saitek products and those type products may suit them perfectly.

As others have mentioned, you need to do some research and ask others for their experience before throwing down the money!

My 2c worth as an eighteen month newbie and still wet behind the ears!   

[Trevor Hale]

Ivar and Shane, you guys hit the nail on the head.  this is exactly the way I was hoping this discussion would go.  Education is the key to a successful purchase.

And if we do our research, and we still get screwed then we know we did our best, and feel better about ourselves in the long run.

I couldn't agree with Ivar more with regard to purchasing products copied by others..  I am a loyal customer to the people who have serviced me over the years, and I too have to say that if they have been good to me, then I need to be good to them.  For those companies out there that would do, that..  they have to be able to sleep at night somehow.

At the very least, the Big names FDS, ENGRAVITY, SIMKNOBS, and ACE, have a very good reputation that follow them, and of course if you are unsure about a vendor, you can always ask in a forum like this.

Great conversation guys.

Trev

[ivar hestnes]

I also want to say that I welcome new vendors that spend time making great products. It is always good with competition. Also in our "market segment". It keeps rival vendors sharpened, and we builders benefit in better and even more innovative products. Many new vendors have great ideas, that has not been done before.

And many builders that turn into vendors, really do a nice job.

But for the builders, a very few lines to think about.

1. Spend some time to make up your mind about what you want. And have fun with that for a while.
2. Research. What parts, vendors, software do you need to succeed with your project. Have fun with that for a while.
3. Buy, build, make in a "smart" way, so you always have something to do. This works good cause of step 1 and 2.

All stages of a simulator build is fun when you have a rough knowledge about the way you are going to achieve your goal.

For me the building is still more fun than the flying. Many hours of build, and then a bonus-flight. And I discover something to do, and keeps on going. It never ends, lol. So much to do that I barely take my time to update the website. Thats the way I like it. Things to keep me busy. In the end, thats what this is about

I better stop writing now, before someone calls the man in white coat 

[shaneb]

I'm like Ivar, I really enjoy the building.  I do what I can, and other complicated parts are left to the "Pros".   I also like seeing new vendors . . unfortunately not to many vendors for Lear parts.  Hopefully in time that will change.  If I ever finish the Lear (is a sim really ever finished?) and I'm not too old I may build a 737 . . by then I should know exactly where to get parts or at least you guys can point me in the right direction!  Can you imagine what will be available in the coming years!   

[ivar hestnes]

Nothing like sitting in a chair with a warm mug of coffee, and at the same time looking at a piece of wood, trying to imagine how that will turn itself into a aircraft part;D

Selfmade parts is the most fun. No doubt. I really enjoy working with wood. And as Shane states, the hardest parts are usually available from a vendor

I like a mix of it all. Some homemade, some replica and some real parts. Now I am really eager to install the new oxy panels from Nihad. Always something to look forward to

[geneb]

When I started out in this hobby in 1995, there was only one commercial offering - the ISA version of the EPIC board.  Your choice of simulator was Flight Simulator 5.1 and a 747 simulator that was insanely expensive.

Since then I've seen dozens of companies come and go.  The companies that failed can be split into two categories.

The first is the "monetized hobbyist".  This person is a sim builder and wants to finally make some of the money back they spent on the sim.

Unfortunately, like R/C pilots that open hobby shops, they're doomed to failure because while they know the community and know the product they're selling, they don't have two clues to rub together when it comes to running a manufacturing business.  These folks burn brightly for a short period of time and then end up broke and resentful because things they didn't plan for ate 'em for lunch.  The sub-set of this group has the business acumen, but not enough experience in the community.  They'll take product interest at face value, invest in a lot of expensive R&D followed by a large production run and then get broke & pissed off when it doesn't explode off the shelves.  They often end up more bitter than the poor folks with no business sense.  A couple of stunningly (and I mean _stunningly_) good product lines have vanished forever because of this.

The second category is full of people that have the skills & the money to bring a good product to market, but they don't understand the community.  Flight simulator builders by their very nature are an odd lot.   Most of us have been abused by part sellers that have gouged us for parts simply because "the original invoice on this component was $megabuck$".  When you need a part and they're the only game in town, you usually end up sucking it up and spending the money.  It's made a lot of us (myself included) pretty jaded and cynical about the whole hobby. 

Unfortunately, these second category types tend to prey on the newbies because they can.  These are the guys that put together glitzy websites and ship crap product.  Fortunately for the hobby in general, these types are shorter and shorter lived with each successive generation.

One of the things that makes it hard to protect people from these sim "predators" is the total lack of reviews for the products they sell.  Sure, we've got reviews of software add-ons for the most part, but nothing for the hardware.  I'm not talking about "professionally" produced stuff from well known names like CH Products or Saitek, but the cottage producers.  These are the guys that produce some great stuff, but either no one knows about them, or their product is expensive enough that people are reluctant to spend the money just for curiosity's sake.

We all hate to see newbies get mugged by shady operators and our friends get fed into a chipper-shredder because nobody knows about them until it's already too late to save 'em.

I think what we really need is a buyer's guide for home built simulator hardware.  Something that can provide the potential customer with a no-nonsense, honest review of a product or manufacturing service.

Here's my thought - I've been running simpits.org for almost 10 years (February 9th is the 10 year anniversary!) and while it's always been a good meeting place for the hard-core sim builder, it hasn't done so well in the content department.  I attribute this to my own lack of ability to keep the troops whipped up at a fever pitch for long enough to produce much content.   What we did get was top notch.

Cockpitbuilders.com has a good handle on the discussion side of things - why not match the two sites?  Simpits.org to hold in-depth product reviews and Cockpitbuilders.com to discuss them?

Does my suggestion make sense or am I talking out my hat again?

(thanks for reading to this point *laughs*)

g.

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I like the building part of it too, but to me, it's just a means to an end. The flying. That's what I get the most enjoyment out of. Sure, I like reproducing a part that looks like it came out of a 727, but isn't that the point? I wouldn't build anything if I couldn't get it to look authentic. Or at least close enough that a visitor couldn't tell it from the real part.

I do like the building when I have to build what I can't buy. Fortunately, I don't have to rely too much on the authenticity or build quality of what I do buy from third party suppliers. Boeing and their contractors make some pretty tight stuff that can't be matched by anyone.

I use regular sellers that I've been buying from for five + years and all have treated me right in regards to shipping and price. No complaints from me about authenticity. 

[Maurice]

Nothing like sitting in a chair with a warm mug of coffee, and at the same time looking at a piece of wood, trying to imagine how that will turn itself into a aircraft part;D

True, unless your life expectancy is limited and you want to fly while you can still recognize the difference between a yoke and a cane 

Maurice

[Trevor Hale]

Cockpitbuilders.com has a good handle on the discussion side of things - why not match the two sites?  Simpits.org to hold in-depth product reviews and Cockpitbuilders.com to discuss them?

Lol Gene, you always make sense..  A good idea in its self that's for sure...

*May require some Exploring* 

LOL..

[Trevor Hale]

True, unless your life expectancy is limited and you want to fly while you can still recognize the difference between a yoke and a cane

Hmmm,, sounds like you might be getting to that point there Mau..  LOL

[geneb]

Cockpitbuilders.com has a good handle on the discussion side of things - why not match the two sites?  Simpits.org to hold in-depth product reviews and Cockpitbuilders.com to discuss them?

Lol Gene, you always make sense..  A good idea in its self that's for sure...

*May require some Exploring* 

LOL..

Me?  Always make sense?  Dude, you need to tell that to my wife! *laughs*

If you think it's worth pursuing, why don't you start a new thread where the details can be hammered out.  Reviewing guidelines, material return policies, etc....

g.

[phil744]

Well, you have my vote for sure on that!

[Trevor Hale]

Tell you what, I will think about this and get back to you..  I am going through some personal stuff right now, and as soon as that is sorted out, we can throw it around and see if everyone can feed input into it.

I worked with other individuals to create that process at the other site, but there are politics involved in such a thing, that myself and this site do not want to get involved with..   This site needs to remain for the members, and I want to keep it that way.  No favoritism to any vendor..

My plans and goals with this site were going to be that..  If I purchased a product and liked it I would review it based on my personal opinion of it.  and If I hated it, I could safely say I hated it.  Like I have done with the 1st Generation ACE Yoke..  I Loved it and I fully and full heartedly support ACE, ALI and his Products based on my personal experiences..    Knowing that I actually pay for the equipment to be reviewed, there is no pressure to have a biased opinion..

If any of you can understand..  This site has and will remain a non commercial platform for our community to have fun and share ideas..  I do not wish to take the path that other sites have in the past..

I hope that makes sense.

Trev

[Boeing Skunk Works]

It makes complete sense to me. That's why I'm here instead of 'over there'...  ...and I won't be going back.

[Maurice]

I hope that makes sense.

Trev

It DOES NOT have to make sense. This is your baby and you can run it the way you see fit, but in this case, your way makes perfect sense anyway. I'm sure that the current membership will have no issues whatsoever with the way this site is evolving. You've done a hell of a great job so far, so why mess with success?

Maurice