Building to host a cockpit?

[mdavenport]

Previously I was looking to purchase a SST and locate this in a small room in my house, however I am now considering investing more £££ and going for a DST MIP with the intention to later expand this and potentially get a cockpit frame to mount an overhead etc... I foresee me building a full cockpit in time and have projectors etc - gulp!  At the moment I just have 3 x 23" LED screens showing out of the window, along with monitors showing my MIP then physical FDS MX MCP EFIS CDU, Sismo Pedestal, Simujabs Yoke, Saitek Rudder pedals

I don't have room in my house for the full cockpit frame + projector setup as I understand I would need approx 3.5m x 3.5m to achieve this - is this correct?  I would be building a 737-800.

I am thinking of a wood log cabin or insulated wood shed but before I start to plan this I would really appreciate learning from your experiences.

Is a shed/log cabin (similar to below) suitable:-
https://dunsterhouse.co.uk/pressure-treated-premiumplus-carsare-w3-5m-x-d3-5m

Or should I be considering something else, brick building etc?  If so what would you recommend? 

What sort of power needs to be available in the building to power such a setup?

What is the ideal size needed?

What height is needed?

Is a pitched roof ok or not?

My budget for the building is around £2000-£3000 but if required I would have to save for longer to get it right.  I don't really want to compromise.

Any links or photos to suitable buildings, sheds, or your own setup would be greatly appreciated.

I am in the UK so it needs to be able to withstand typical UK weather..  rain!  fairly warm summers!

Hope you can share your experiences to aid me..

Mark

[navymustang]

Mark, welcome to the world of simulation and I wish you well as you dive into this. I think you are well under estimating the space requirement for the structure you would need.
Assuming you set up a projection system with a 200 degree horizontal field of view, you would need a screen with a diameter of roughly 4 meters.  Then add walk around distance for maintenance and installation, so you are talking about a 6 x 6 meter building.
If you want to go the route of linked controls, you will have to elevate your sim platform at least 2 feet or more above the floor. If you want crawl space under the sim for suture maintenance activities, make that a full meter off the floor or more. That takes the roof of the sim to almost 2.5 to 3 meters. Then add an additional 1 meter for the projector and mounting assemblies.
For example - my 737-800 full cockpit with projection system completely fills my two bay garage (American size) with no room to spare.
Jim

[Trevor Hale]

Hi Mark,

I wouldn't go any smaller then that..  That would be your minimum if you are only doing the cockpit and maybe a workbench in the back.

My Shed is 8 feet wide and 20 feet long, and I have barely enough room, and there is no way I could use a projector unless it was really short throw.  3 projectors setup, I can forget about it, never going to happen.

If you are looking for a shed that you want to be able to separate off to be able to put the garden tractor and or snow blower in as well, you better be looking at 20 X 20.

I have 8.5' ceilings and lots of insulation.

I have installed a 60AMP Hydro service in my Sim Shed, but remember that's 120V  You may be able to get away with a 30Amp 240V setup, but I am not sure how you utilize North American Electronic equipment in the UK.

I have enough power for 3 computers, electric heater, and all the trimmings...  (I wouldn't say I have lots.. but enough power)

Here is a pic of my shed.

The Man door into my Shed, is right behind the cockpit, with just enough room for a wall to separate the back of the sim and my work/Viewing area.

[mdavenport]

Oh my.  I think with dimensions needed like those I really have underestimated what I need... 

This puts a different spin on things at least for the next 12-24 months as I can't justify anything as big as that at the moment..  I was considering getting a 3.5m sq shed to give me more room now and then work towards the bigger cockpit when I have more time and money but will have to hold on the new building and change my approach for now and I may need to "make do" with my 2mtr x 2.5 mtr area which I have in the house (at least for now)...

I will still plan to get my DST MIP to replace my desk but stick with the 3 x screens for out the window view for now.  I can locate my already owned equipment MCP, EFIS, CDU, Pedestal and Yoke with the new MIP but I guess the challenge I will have is that I will want a overhead fwd+aft pretty soon and there comes my challenge in mounting this.  I won't end up with a nice cockpit surround just yet but hopefully will be getting more components that will eventually help me achieve my goal.

The ceiling where I have my sim pitches up on one side so its not easy to mount an overhead to anything.  I've previously seen mounts on SST like Jetmax that are fixed to the SST MIP and host the overhead, others seem to have to have a full frame (which I don't have room for) or overhead mounted structure (which I don't have the ceiling for).

Given the constraints I have are you able to offer any ideas on how I could mount an overhead using a structure originating from the MIP - like Jetmax offers but one that can host a FWD and AFT.

Also, any other suggestions/recommendations on my approach and project will greatly be received.

Thanks

[jackpilot]

For your OVH you can build a sort of "roll cage" with supports at the back where the cockpit door is usually located.
Aluminum T bars sections bolted together can do.

[Flying_Fox]

6 x 6 m would be much better, however my full cockpit with 3 projectors, ~200 cm screen radius and linked controls fits in 456 x 370 cm room with only 235 cm ceiling. Sim floor is just 20 cm above room floor.
Of course, I would love to have more space...
Size matters...



Nick

[Trevor Hale]

Actually I have seen guys glue together pvc pipe to build their cockpit structures to hold the overhead.  Google search that and you will see what I mean.

We all have to make concessions from time to time until we can make the leap.  the important part is to start small and work your way up.  my cockpit is 6 feet wide, and I have 8' wide room.  I was able to make do with a large monitor for the front view and smaller monitors for the side views.  LCD's are pretty thin.

Anyway, you make work what you have... Keep building and you will remain happy.  Then when you do move to a bigger room, you will #1. Be able to fix the things you did temporarily, and #2. appreciate the extra space when you have it.

Good luck,

Trev

[mdavenport]

Great advise guys.. Really appreciate it.

I think I will continue and get my MIP and then build on that..  I think after the MIP the overhead will need to come next as its the only panel then I don't have something physical for..  I am still using Prosim software overhead panel on a 19" touch screen monitor - anyone know of any intermediate solution that are better than a 19" monitor but not the full hardware overhead solution?

Once I have my MIP and overhead solution I will then start and consider what is next and it may be the right time to get the new shed/log cabin then...

Great forum guys...  Expensive never ending hobby :-)

[Trevor Hale]

Great forum guys...  Expensive never ending hobby :-)

Least this forum is free LOL

[blueskydriver]

Hi Mark,

How much space do you have for a shed? It all really starts with that size. Here is what I suggest, get a pre-fab metal shed, say something like this:

http://whatshed.co.uk/12-x-38-storemore-emerald-olympian-apex-metal-garage/

Or, something else from this company or similar company in the UK. Next, you either pour a concrete base for the shed too sit on or use a wood base. Get the shed built (most likely, you can put it together yourself), then you frame out the inside with 2'x4' boards, so you will have something too attach insulation onto. Insulate the walls, ceiling and cut a new access in the long side to place a normal size walk in door. As for the big end doors, seal them shut and insulate over them. You will not need too open them... Run electrical to the shed and pre-run outlet wires inside before you insulate.
Once the insulation is up, cover it with metal sheeting, drywall or even thin fiber board, and then paint to suit your liking (color).
Lastly, if you want to plan for heating and cooling, use a portable heater/ac unit that you can run the two air tubes through two holes cut in the sides of the shed... Oh, do not install windows, they're a waste. If you're worried about heat build up, install a side exhaust fan with a thermostat to kick the fan on when you need it.

Best Regards,

John

[mdavenport]

Hi John,

Many thanks for the link and the advise on how to build it properly.

In terms of space outside, I do have a fair amount available.  The issue isn't the space outside but rather keeping the wife happy and not putting an eye sore out there.  If it was something that blended with the garden well, i.e. a log cabin then its an easier sell for me. 

The link you have sent looks like a great solution, but my fear is that it will fall in to the "not so pleasing on the eye" but I will need to approach her with that question when the time is right.

Is the recommendation then to stay away from log cabins etc or wooden sheds?  If so why, is it the inability to set this up correctly with the correct insulation etc? or is it because metal is longer lasting?

Also, what do you guys do about sound proofing?

Mark

[Trevor Hale]

I am posting this by learning from experience LOL.

There is no right or wrong SHED..  Mark you have it right that the "Right Shed" is the one she likes the look of.

No need to soundproof my shed, I have 2X6" walls filled with R30 Insulation.  Standing at the door, you can hear the rumble of the engine very dull, and I have neighbors very close. (No Issue)

As far as I am concerned if the Mrs will let you have a shed if it is (Cabin looking) then that's the kind of shed you should get.  No point beating a dead horse, we all know if she likes the idea (ie. You will have more room in the house for your stuff, we can make you a sewing room, think how little messes there will be in the house, and when my friends come over we will be in the shed) then she will be more willing to go along with the idea.. LOL

Trev

[quid246]

Here is what I am building (with a real shell)... 16 x 16 steel.  Just enough for everything and a little work area (I hope).  Cockpit will move forward, it just "landed" there.

Couldn't go any bigger or else it would overpower my small backyard.

[jackpilot]

Neat... aluminum ?

[Trevor Hale]

If I could do it again I would have gone 16X16. Nice choice.

[navymustang]

For Quid - are you then going to use LCD monitors versus a projection system?

[mdavenport]

My only concern was if wooden sheds weren't as sturdy or solid enough for that amount of electrics and expense.  Also, they need a fair amount of looking after to stop them rotting but happy to deal with that (when I'm not flying) :-)

A metal garage/shed would certainly seem to be the better option and is more robust but I a shed/log cabin will blend in that bit easier and keep the wife happier..  I may need to approach the subject carefully.

In terms of sizes then, are we saying that a 16x16 ft would be suitable, bigger if possible?  What would be the smallest anyone should consider to contain a frame and 3 projectors...? 12x12ft?

What would the ideal height be?

[blueskydriver]

Hi Mark,

I am going to send you a PM tomorrow that will have a lot of info, but for now do not make any decisions. Instead, would you be willing too go visit other builders in the UK who can provide some insight?

If so, make a new post that says something like "New member looking to visit other UK simulator builders to research and learn more about building my own B737 sim...etc, etc"

There are many builders in the UK and I am sure they'll be open for a visit. Once you find someone, I suggest you take your wife along and let her spend time in the simulator with you, as well as speak to the other builder's spouse. That way she can understand it from another woman's point of view, which will help you in the end.

Additionally, gather up same wooden stakes and string/rope, then go out and mark off the area in your yard (and make a rough draft layout sheet). Please insist for your wife too help you (not just stand there, but actually hammering the stakes or running the string)...why? She'll feel like she had some input and will understand why you want 20feetx20feet instead of 15'x15' (or whatever size) when you're in the middle of explaining your reasons and measuring. Make sure you ask her if she sees another way too measure it. In other words, only do the measuring and do not talk about the type of building materials or any other details. Trust me, it will be better for you both, if this is done as a team of just you and her, rather then either of you dictating it.

Lastly, if I can say the most important thing for now, and not knowing your wife or family, but you must ignore the doubters, the critics, the naysayers and OMG!...never ever listen too the in-laws (other people outside of the hobby is who I mean). Hopefully, other new people thinking about this hobby will read that as well...

Best Regards,

John

Ps go look me up in the simulator hangar section, then look at my posted photos...

[jackpilot]

Going from how to shelter your simulator to how to trick your wife into it.....


Note: if she wanted a small greenhouse in the backyard, you would probably grab your tools, buy material, and build it (probably larger and better than planned ) without thinking twice....men are wired like that !! 


PS: John, Karen is an exception!! 

[mdavenport]

Hi Mark,

I am going to send you a PM tomorrow that will have a lot of info, but for now do not make any decisions. Instead, would you be willing too go visit other builders in the UK who can provide some insight?

If so, make a new post that says something like "New member looking to visit other UK simulator builders to research and learn more about building my own B737 sim...etc, etc"

There are many builders in the UK and I am sure they'll be open for a visit. Once you find someone, I suggest you take your wife along and let her spend time in the simulator with you, as well as speak to the other builder's spouse. That way she can understand it from another woman's point of view, which will help you in the end.

Additionally, gather up same wooden stakes and string/rope, then go out and mark off the area in your yard (and make a rough draft layout sheet). Please insist for your wife too help you (not just stand there, but actually hammering the stakes or running the string)...why? She'll feel like she had some input and will understand why you want 20feetx20feet instead of 15'x15' (or whatever size) when you're in the middle of explaining your reasons and measuring. Make sure you ask her if she sees another way too measure it. In other words, only do the measuring and do not talk about the type of building materials or any other details. Trust me, it will be better for you both, if this is done as a team of just you and her, rather then either of you dictating it.

Lastly, if I can say the most important thing for now, and not knowing your wife or family, but you must ignore the doubters, the critics, the naysayers and OMG!...never ever listen too the in-laws (other people outside of the hobby is who I mean). Hopefully, other new people thinking about this hobby will read that as well...

Best Regards,

John

Ps go look me up in the simulator hangar section, then look at my posted photos...

Hi John,

Many thanks for the post and I look forward to getting your PM.

Yes, I am willing to visit UK cockpit builders so will look to put the post out there soon to gather names etc..

I also agree taking the wife along and getting her bought into my project is a bonus...  Part of the hard work I have with this is she was cabin crew for many years and feels like going into a flight deck isn't anything special (when she has been in hundreds of time already, seen takeoffs and landings etc) and doesn't get excited about it, therefore keeping her interested in my project is going to be interesting.  But that won't stop me from trying... ;-)

I do feel I need to take my time, research and tread carefully and in the meantime I still want to get my MIP - but a MIP that all being well I can use in a home built cockpit as to not waste investment but to still allow me to move forward with the project and of-course my main reason of flying it.

[blueskydriver]

Hi Mark,

Knowing that your wife was a flight attendant does make a difference, since she likely just looked at the aircraft as a form of transportation and her job. Where you, like a lot of builders', see the glory in it and getting our other halves too see that glory can be tough.

Like Jack says, I might be saying too trick your wife into it, but I know through Jack's years of posting, he is good at seeing the humor in things and yet, he understands it's a balancing game. The old saying of a Man's Logic vs a Woman's Emotion. Being logical, I would go out and build that garden shed for her like Jack describes; however, me being me, I'd have her out there helping. Additionally, Jack is also right about my wife Karen, she is one of the few that comes across just like one of the guys.

Last night I asked Karen what made the difference too her or why she can see and agree with the "Man Logic". Her answer was rather simple, she says her Dad took the time too teach her things, in a step by step process and the "why" of it. Then, she says it just so happens that is how I was when we first met...that I took the time too explain it all, no matter what it was and she was very happy about that. Hence 20 years together later, I am able to type this point.

As I am getting a way bit off topic, let me bring it back by saying this. If you can discuss it with her, explain it, share an old story that relates too it, and/or somehow convey your passion for it, they're likely to go along and help you through it. And, if that doesn't work, do what Jack says...you trick them into it...LOL!!! I am kidding...lol...I know Jack is laughing at me right now.

Okay, back to the simulator and building. About the MIP, so you do not have an actual MIP structure yet? Are you going to build it or go with FDS MIP (I have a FDS MIP and love it!)? Hey, can you post some pics of your setup as it is now?
So, currently your are flying your sim as it is and which aircraft model/avionics package? I know these questions are not about the building either, but it helps too know because I can give you ideas based on how you see things now.

For example, look at the B737 from the virtual cockpit view while parked at an airport movable gate (tram-way). Next, as funny as this sounds, buy some black poster board and cut four pieces too make a square funnel shape blinder like the old dial viewers and long enough that you can sit at a desk with it. Attach them temporarily to an LCD monitor, making the screen the only thing you see when placing your face up to the blinder. I attached a reference pic of Mr Spock from Star Trek looking into something like this, but it needs to be the size of your LCD screen on one end and about the size of your head/face on the other (not just eye size like Spock's viewer is).

If you make this, and while using it, what you will see is the virtual cockpit and the terminal/gate, so by looking at this, you are now looking at what you need too duplicate in a fullsize sim (it's just a matter of scale). Move the aircraft to the taxiway, runway or any other location that will replicate a sense of scale.

Therefore, your sim, with built up cockpit structure or real nose, plus the building or shed and how much space it has, along with everything else like projectors or monitors, computers, the cockpit shell and so on, must lead to the way you see it in the blinder. If it doesn't, you will not be happy. In other words, when thinking of building the shed, try to factor everything in...

Oh darn, forgot to tell you this, just using a joystick, have your wife sit down at the blinders and fly any simulated aircraft. Let her see nothing but the virtual aircraft view; I am curious if the motion will affect her much or at all, being that she was on real aircraft a lot. Maybe, go with a Cessna or a Fighter Jet for her to try in the blinders...

More to come,

John

[mdavenport]

Hi John,

I've sent you a PM..

Mark

[blueskydriver]

Hi Mark,

Got your PM and I will reply later tonight...

John

[simlady/ Karen]

HI,
The guys are right when they say get your wife involved as much as you can from the start. As we worked on John planes and even building the 40 x 80 Hanger, I learned a lot and it was a great way to spend time together. I wrote little notes all over the 2 x 4's and put dates on other things that would be covered up. This was a way for us to know that if, somewhere down the road, someone would be taking the planes apart, they would see hidden treasures.

John also explained things to me so that i could see the whole picture. I'm an accountant and i like to see things that way. If he told me to pound a nail in a wall, i'm going to ask why, before i do. Sometimes it drove him nuts but i don't like busy work. One thing John and my dad taught me were power tools... OMG!... do not keep this a secret from her. Share your knowledge. Once i got a hold of power tools and using the air compressor, John was lucky if he ever got to put a nail in a board again. I have to admit, the Nail gun is my favorite.

Okay, i won't make this post as long as John's but i have to say that he has trained me well over the years and if i wanted a garden shed, I'd build it just like the hanger, just a lot smaller. I just need a place to park my truck and my Skid.



Karen.

[mdavenport]

Hi Karen,

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

I will certainly try to get her involved.. I don't think I will get the buy-in to do it alone... It would probably end in divorce from not seeing her :-0

I will take on board all the comments posted and look forward to hearing back from John following the PM.

Kind regards

Mark