Linking or not Linking....

[jackpilot]

Hi Guys

I was recently talking about that issue  with an experienced builder, not(yet) member here, and I imagine that it could be positive to exchange ideas on the subject.

Linking controls (yokes and pedals)  entails a thick plateform and a fairly sturdy mechanism of metal beams or large section tubing to eliminate  torsion or flexing.

The question will raise some hair straight up (not mine for sure !) But is all that work really justified in a Sim from a pilot's point of view.
Of course, linked controls  allow pilots to exert twice the force in extremely rare cases of emergency, but this seems to be a by-product of the linking, not the  original intent.
Linked controls were implemented  because , from a mechanical point of view, it is pure logic to link at the wheel/pedals level rather than running  two sets of cables, one for each pilot, to the same control surfaces.
Linking lost its purpose with fly-by wire, is still the norm in other types of aircrafts, but  is it justified in a Sim where there are no cables or pneumatics/hydraulics but just USB connections?

Except the fact that it looks good (agreed) and may impress a visitor, what difference does it make for a pilot if the right set of pedals moves or not when the left one is actuated? Is it really important to go for that kind of complexity  to simply mimic a system ?

Two Ace's yokes and two sets of surface mount USB rudders can do the job nicely and save a lot of time, space and frustration...and look as good!

What do you think Guys?

[Bob Reed]

Well I have to admit, this is something I have been giving a lot of thought. How many of us even get co pilots very often? And then there is the visuals. Almost impossible to set them up so you can land form both seats.  And as Jack pointed out, the expense. I am still not certain which direction I am going to go.  Lets hear more on this.....

[XOrionFE]

I did the linked for one very important reason.....

Teaching others how to fly and in my case specifically my kids.    Without it there is simply no way to coach them on the feel and help through the learning process IMHO.    We all went through this in our PPL lessons with instructors no doubt who would nudge the yoke a little or exert a little extra pressure on a rudder pedal.   That was my reason for doing it but other than that I would see no reason.

Scott

[fordgt40]

Jack

Good question! I think it all depends on what your original expectation was. We all trim our desires to suit budget, practicality and functionality. For what it is worth, I always envisaged linked controls, hooked up to the auto pilot and with control surface force feedback. It is possible, however, if I subsequently determine that it is too much "grief" then sobeit. At least I tried and can justify to myself why it was not pursued - will be disappointed though

Ian Sissons says I am a perfectionist - but that is what drives me!

David

[Boeing Skunk Works]

I have a single seater because of space limitations. If I were able to have a dual seat trainer I would have to have dual linked controls just on the basis of authenticity. This would not be negotiable.

[JWS]

I (will) have a single seater too. I can imagine that someone who is building a full scale flightdeck at least wants dual controlls. And linking depends on the use perhaps. If you are frequently flying with a friend as copilot it may pay off to put in all the extra effort (maybe he is willing to throw in some money also ). Otherwise I think I could live without it.

JWS

[choffmann]

I use linked yokes. Yes, it adds to the feel of realism in 737. It may be different with the bus sidesticks. Don´t they act independently, anyway?
I am just now making my mind up as to buy linked rudder pedals, but you barely see them yonder working simulaneously, so what. BTW: Is there someone here using the new FDS rudders? What are your experiences? (Certainly dont want to abuse this thread)
Also, I am thinking of buying a F/O tiller for ground steering. Are they linked in the real 737?
How can I program this in FSUIPC (using v.3.90)? One tiller is easily assigned, but a second one?

Chris

[Maurice]

Very interesting question for me as well now that I have purchased a set of yokes & control columns. I do think though that I will try to link them mostly for one & one reason only... showing off.  . I will likely be flying alone 99.999% of the time, so linked yokes is a 'luxury' and nothing else but it looks damn good when they are linked.

Having said that, if I did not have the height for a high platform, I would definitely have been very happy with independent controls. The platform is a sizeable pain in the butt and really not required if you forego the linkage so definitely an excellent reason not to link the controls. If I did not yet have linked rudders, I would definitely have though very hard about going that route.

For some unknown reason, it was never a choice for me when I started, mostly because nobody else brought up that very good question. Too late for me now Jack; why did you wait until now to ask that question? 

Maurice

[shaneb]

I went with linked controls . . mostly for the same reasons as Scott . . but I also like watching both columns in action and yokes turning together, it just adds a little more realism for me personally . . oh and I was trying for that authentic look too       

[jackpilot]

Hey guys,
Of course it looks darn good but:

When you taxi, you use the tiller and they do not move. When you take off or land manual on a tricky approach you do not have time or even want to look at the other yoke doing its little ballet.
And when you are  on autopilot none of them moves anyway!
Just a note..

[MLeavy737]

 I would want linked controls for the reason some mentioned already and thats for showing others how to fly. No words can duplicate helping someone on the controls with slight little inputs at the right time.  Also have to remember there are some b-55 barons and maybe some others that only have one yoke that you can move to either side.

think its up to you, what you plan on doing with it and who is going to fly it.

Mike Leavy

[Emesis]

Mmmmm Practical or the cool factor?
Are we building our sims for practicality or because it's cool 

I would like to have linked controls because it's more realistic, and isn't that what we're trying to achieve, to make it as realistic as possible?
But practically, I can't afford it right now 
So kudos to the builders that have it.

[fordgt40]

And when you are  on autopilot none of them moves anyway!
Just a note..

Jack

Are you saying that on the 737 the yokes are not backdriven by the autopilot - or am I missing something?
Regards

David

[Maurice]

Jack

Are you saying that on the 737 the yokes are not backdriven by the autopilot - or am I missing something?
Regards

David
[/quote]

I think Jack meant that on autopilot in flight simulator, the yokes do not move. I may be mistaken but I'm pretty sure they move in a real plane when on autopilot.  Is this correct Jack?

Maurice

[jackpilot]

Correct Mau.

Some thoughts on the "realistic" factor

Realistic look is one thing and relatively easy to achieve , what we could call the eye-candy realism. ie: the yokes move together
Price to  pay is a plateform, with everything it entails.

Realistic  feel and realistic precision are another matter on top of that. I have seen and tested a few linkage mechanisms, from real Boeing stuff at CAE  to home built cable and bungee or spring  centering devices. My understanding is that, unless you go with the real stuff as Axel did, it has to be built at a great cost( not only moneywise) and very seriously engineered with costly components like HD aluminum beams, bearings, precison tie-rods, etc. The "pro" linkage mechanisms that people like Art (Northern FlightSimulation) or Peter (FlightdeckSolutions) manufacture are on a totally different scale, price and quality wise.
It can be done and adds a lot, agreed, but it's a hell of a job !

Remember when the second generation black CH Yoke was introduced (after the butterfly white one).....
That was realistic then!!!

Great hobby!!

[ETomlin]

Yes, they move when the AP is engaged.

Now, by 2 cent worth. Basically ALL that was said above is what Ive thought. My personal solution: Right now I have 2 CH yokes mounted on static columns and are connected via USB and calibrated in FSUIPC and it works peachy. I have one set of pedals, and boy do I wish I had a 2nd for those times when I DO have a visitor. My point here is that regardless if they are LINKED, at least have 2 of both. It stinks that if I have a visitor I cannot help him/her fly from the copilot's seat for takeoff and landing simply because the pedals are absolutely required. Just as soon as I am able, I will be moving the CH yokes to a generic or desktop sim and real LJ35 yokes will be installed in the LJ45 sim. (LJ45 yokes are simply not available right now for under a fortune and if Im going to spend that on yokes I could have built an FDS 777 sim). The rudder pedals? I dont really care if I have have linked rudder pedals and I have a feeling that the LJ45 pedals dont have linked brakes anyhow since they are brake-by-wire. Not certain, but I really dont think those are linked (the pedals are, but not the brakes I think but I could be wrong).

So yeah- the linked controls look cool and are very functional and they are a pain to install and all that. But, it really depends on what you want and then finally, by what you can afford. I tell folks asking how much it costs to build a sim that the best way to find out is to decide what you can and cannot live without, then you just start building and buying. There is no other way, but of course you all know this already :-)

[XOrionFE]

my linked yokes only cost alot for the yokes.   I probably spend about $200 total to make the dual linkages, columns, etc.   It wasnt that hard to do, is rock solid, and works fantastic.  Tension and centering is also great and I would argue better than some of the manufactured products I have tested that costs thousands.  Of course this took some engineering, some welding skill, and the right tools but the result I believe is excellent and cheap to build.   Shane has the same setup and I am sure he will agree on its durabily and airworthiness.    It looks cool but is also very functional for training someone to fly.   

There are videos I posted here on it before and we are happy to help anyone out if you want to give them a go.   That said, if it werent for wanting to train I probably would have gone with a premade single unit on each side from Ace or PFC.


Scott

[jackpilot]

Eric and Scott mentionned  good points.
We all agree I think that having two "operational" yokes and rudders is basically a must in a full size cockpit.
The linked ones being the ultimate solution,  of course.

But the non linked , or "surface mount" solution has some serious appeal, mostly for "99% single" Flyers.
1) No thick plateform
2) Flying and  enjoying the Sim much sooner ( and this is a big one !)
3) Possibility to add a fully operational FO station as soon as needed or a soon as money is available by adding instantly another P&P yoke/rudder.

I'm going that way (so far) by having an Ace Yoke on the left and a real, non interfaced, refurbished yoke on the right side ( with tension and self centering, Ace style, but not linked to the sim) . If needed, I can resell it and install another Ace FO yoke. Four bolts and one USB plugin'.  Same idea with the rudders.....
When /if I have a friend visiting the Sim, I take the right seat for NFP duties, and let him have full fun on the left one.

JP

[Bob Reed]

Right Jack. This is exactly what Trevor and I did when he came over a couple years ago. My sim only flew from the left side so we switched places. One would take off and then we would switch seats for the landing. The on that landed would takeoff and so on. Was the most fun I ever had in my sim. Flying as a crew was great!

[shaneb]

As Scott stated,  the yoke column setup that we have is around $200.00 and the expensive part is the real yokes . . but you could always substitute ch yokes if you don't want to spend alot on real yokes.  I picked up a CH yoke for $30.00 on eBay . . does not matter if it works because you are going to disassemble and take the yoke wheel out of the enclosure.  If it does work you have a USB I/O ready to go.

Of course this all comes down to what you expect out of your sim.  No right or wrong answer.   

[Maurice]

There are videos I posted here on it before and we are happy to help anyone out if you want to give them a go.   
Scott

Hi Scott,

I know I should be using the search button but I'm exhausted after the search for my tape measure which I finally found where it was never supposed to be (nothing to measure there). Anyway, if you happen to have a link for the video, please post it again as I am also going to embark on that little adventure with the yokes I just got on e-bay.

Thanks,
Maurice

[XOrionFE]

Here is the video link Maurice.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YxiN48-sLpU

Now if I can successfully setup my rudder pedals like you did linked I will be one happy camper.

Scott

[Maurice]

Thanks Scott. Unfortunately, the part I was really interested in was mostly out of the picture at the bottom. The yokes I bought come with a column as well, so the control wheel mechanism is already there. I mostly need the column linkage and what you did is not obvious since I cannot see it in the video. Hopefully I'll be able to see it in the pictures you have in the website (forgot name of website).

As for rudder linkage, I just got mine fitted in my new platform and I can breathe a sigh of relief. When I took them out of my old platform, I took part of the old platform with them and I was able to fit the whole business in its new home. I think it was mostly luck and a bit of foresight on my part  .

I'm sure you will be able to come up with an even better design. That seems to happen a lot around here and that's the beauty of this forum  .

Maurice

[XOrionFE]

Here is the link to my photo sharing section on flickr which has some of the column pictures.  However,  my setup probably will not be the best with what you have with the real columns.   
http://www.flickr.com/photos/orionsbelt/sets/72157622388681607/

On the other hand, I dont know who this is but he had great setup for linking with real columns like you have.  Maybe this will help
http://www.sim-737ng.com/yoke/yoke.htm

Scott

[jackpilot]

On the other hand, I dont know who this is but he had great setup for linking with real columns like you have.  Maybe this will help
http://www.sim-737ng.com/yoke/yoke.htm

Scott

This is the site of Alain Tremblay, bush pilot, Quebec City.
Very well documented for all sorts of things
These yokes were his first attempt he has real yokes and colums now.
I tried his sim.  Amazing!!
You.ll like it Mau.
JP