FSX, TripleHead & Nthusim question

[Maurice]

I thought I was getting somewhere with TripleHead & Nthusim when I finally got what looked like a half decent alignment while on the runway. But as soon as I took off, all hell broke loose; well not exactly but the alignment goes completely berserk. Now I haven't aligned the Nthusim pattern anywhere near perfectly but this could not be messing up the image that much. So I must be doing something very wrong here.

So basically on the runway everything looks somewhat properly aligned. Nowhere near perfect but not horrible either. (ignore blotches as drywall still has mud patches and is not painted yet)

As I take off and raise the nose, the horizon starts looking like this


And in flight, when making a turn, the horizon is no longer straight as well



Am I missing something very basic here? Also, can't position the pictures within the message. Am I doing something wrong here too?

Thanks,

Maurice

[XOrionFE]

looks like you dont have your warping adjusted quite right.  you will definitley have some of this effect wheneve pitching way up or down and the horizon is moving p toward the top of the screen or at the bottom because yo cant make the warping perfect for all cases but that said yours looks really out of whack.   can you send me your .flt file and let me take a look at it?   Also, ow many degrees of wrap total do you have there?

scott

[Maurice]

Thanks Scott. I will send you the file later tonight or tomorrow after I play a bit more with the warping to see if that helps

Thanks,

Maurice

[Vectro]

Are you running multiple undocked outside view windows? If so, it will distort the picture like this.
We solved the problem by running only one undocked outside view that is streched and zoomed all the way back to gain more sideviews.

The result with only one front outside view and Nthusim here:
http://www.youtube.com/user/Cessna172sim#p/u/5/SDm7GZnU6ms

[ETomlin]

Incredible- Absolutely incredible. Are you saying that you only have 1 view total and it's stretched super-wide and then curved on the screen? How do you not get distortion if this is what you are doing? Looks good however you've pulled it off.

[Vectro]

Yes. Only one undocked, fully backzoomed and horizontally stretched outside view window needed. You will also need matrox triplehead2go, 3 x short throw video projectors and Nthusim software.

Because it is only one window it cannot distort. Simple as that.

[Vectro]

the distortion only occurs when running multiple outside view windows. Just undock one front view and zoom it all the way back. It is not full 180 degrees but close enough and runs like a charm.

[Vectro]

offtopic: our outside view is a modified virtual cockpit view from where we have removed all interior parts of Cessna cockpit. Only the propeller was left visible since we have a real airframe and upper nose cowling. The wing struts and wings is a modified 2D gauge panel from where we removed all gauges and made it invisible. Then we attached a picture of the wings to this panel view. Basically there is a virtual cockpit view and modified instrument panel view running at the same time. By pressing shift + 1 you can add a 2D panel on top of virtual cockpit view.

[jackpilot]

Did you ever try or look at:
http://fly.elise-ng.net/index.php/immersivedisplaylite2

Costs next to nothing!
Can it do the same as NThusim?

[Maurice]

Yes. Only one undocked, fully backzoomed and horizontally stretched outside view window needed. You will also need matrox triplehead2go, 3 x short throw video projectors and Nthusim software.

Because it is only one window it cannot distort. Simple as that.

Unless I am totally misunderstanding what you are doing, I really don't think this is necessarily the best compromise. True, you will not get the distortion you get with multiple windows but you trade that for a lot of distortion in the side views which not only brings far objects much closer but also stretches them a great deal. Besides that, you also lose the 180+ degrees view that you have with 3 windows.

You say it's not 180 degrees but close enough and I don't understand why you say that since the maximum angle you can get with one window is 120 degrees I believe if you zoom all the way back.

In the pictures I posted earlier in this thread, the horizon angles between the views are greatly exaggerated because I took the pictures with the airplane climbing much more steeply than normal and diving much steeper than normal for an airliner. Also, the pictures were taken of the full screen from outside the cockpit and that effect is much more pronounced when you see the whole screen all at once. With the limited view through the windows, the distortion is much more acceptable especially if you do not try doing aerobatics with an airliner  .

Anyway, the really important thing is that you are happy with your resuts. I may yet decide to use your method if I find the broken horizon line intolerable but for now, I think I will accept that because I really, really like the totally undistorted 210 degree view when on the gound and taxiing, which is the time when you most need to see right & left.

Thanks,

Maurice

[XOrionFE]

Yes. Only one undocked, fully backzoomed and horizontally stretched outside view window needed. You will also need matrox triplehead2go, 3 x short throw video projectors and Nthusim software.

Because it is only one window it cannot distort. Simple as that.

First let me say your sim looks incredible.   But I have to say I agree with Maurice.   Using just one view stretched to the sides doesnt give you true 180 degree surround.   The sides are not true 90 degree views.  You can see this most when looking out the left or right at a perpenicular taxiway or runway.   The only way to get true views out the sides at 90 degrees is to use multiple undocked views.

Scott

[jackpilot]

Going from one 17" monitor to a triple 19" display was a great achievement.
Having for the first time a 4X8 feet image in front of me with one projector made me drool recently, but, rats, I still see the room on the sides,
Going to a zoomed out  0.3 120 degrees on three flat angled screens with 3 projo and a magic TH2Go looks like a dream now...until I try it and want 180 ° on a circular screen , and then 220°...

Check the  post below , courtesy of Nat. It is a fairly long one, and it illustrates the long road to fulfillment....read it all if you can, lots of data and it might save you costly intermediary stages.

http://www.flightdecksolutions.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=3867&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

[Kennair]

For some time we tried a single undocked view and it certainly works, its also great on frame rates, however there is a major drawback as Maurice and Scott have noted, it's still only 120 degree maximum and images are stretched.  With this angle you are not really getting the most from your 3 projector setup.  This becomes an issue when coming in on approach as you have very little peripheral view.

If you follow the formula using the Windowmaker.xls tool and make sure your projectors are aligned exactly to the angle you require (eg 60 degree to give a 180 degree view) the 3 views come out almost perfect first go.  There's a much heavier drain on your system however and you will need a high performance PC to run it adequately!

As a test I lined the aircraft nose at the cross point of a perpendicular runway.  If your views are at least 180 degree you should be able to look directly left and right and see straight down the perpendicular runways.  If it isn't then most likely your projector angles aren't the same as your view angles.  Side images still appear angled up slightly using this method but once off the ground it flattens out.  Maurice's images above indicate an exaggeration of this effect and therefore I would suggest incorrect alignment.

Ken.

[Vectro]

Did you ever try or look at:
http://fly.elise-ng.net/index.php/immersivedisplaylite2

Costs next to nothing!
Can it do the same as NThusim?

Hi,
I have no any experience concerning this product since we are using Nthusim.

[Vectro]

Thank you for your comments and like said under another topic I totally agree that our setup is not perfect but works well enough. In FS2004 and I suppose in FSX also we have to make some kind of compromise anyway, either it is multiple undocked outside view or limited but smooth outside view.

I really wish that MS would have made still one improved sim version with this 180" option as a default. 

[ETomlin]

Thank you for your comments and like said under another topic I totally agree that our setup is not perfect but works well enough. In FS2004 and I suppose in FSX also we have to make some kind of compromise anyway, either it is multiple undocked outside view or limited but smooth outside view.

I really wish that MS would have made still one improved sim version with this 180" option as a default. 

1) Regardless if it's not the best way, your sim is still incredible and I know everyone here is impressed
2) I totally agree about MS- I wish they would really consider the "open-ness" of their software for simbuilders in the views section for exactly this reason. I hate the fact that it seems we can never really get rid of the crabbing issue for full size setups.

[Bob Reed]

Yes. Only one undocked, fully backzoomed and horizontally stretched outside view window needed. You will also need matrox triplehead2go, 3 x short throw video projectors and Nthusim software.

Because it is only one window it cannot distort. Simple as that.

Unless I am totally misunderstanding what you are doing, I really don't think this is necessarily the best compromise. True, you will not get the distortion you get with multiple windows but you trade that for a lot of distortion in the side views which not only brings far objects much closer but also stretches them a great deal. Besides that, you also lose the 180+ degrees view that you have with 3 windows.

You say it's not 180 degrees but close enough and I don't understand why you say that since the maximum angle you can get with one window is 120 degrees I believe if you zoom all the way back.

In the pictures I posted earlier in this thread, the horizon angles between the views are greatly exaggerated because I took the pictures with the airplane climbing much more steeply than normal and diving much steeper than normal for an airliner. Also, the pictures were taken of the full screen from outside the cockpit and that effect is much more pronounced when you see the whole screen all at once. With the limited view through the windows, the distortion is much more acceptable especially if you do not try doing aerobatics with an airliner  .

Anyway, the really important thing is that you are happy with your resuts. I may yet decide to use your method if I find the broken horizon line intolerable but for now, I think I will accept that because I really, really like the totally undistorted 210 degree view when on the gound and taxiing, which is the time when you most need to see right & left.

Thanks,

Maurice

Actually Maurice, I don't think you will even notice the lines after a very short time. I know when I built that sim in Washington, in a very short time I did not see the break in the view for 5 total monitors.

[ETomlin]

Thanks Bob. Making me remember how much I like the convienience of 3 50" monitors again, no matter how beautiful the seamless display is. Grrr....

[XOrionFE]

ah but the Immersion factor of surround projection cannot be beat Eric.   However, convenience is a very nice thing as we have discussed in length.    Youve got to get up here to Chicago! :-)

[ETomlin]

Youve got to get up here to Chicago! :-)

Planning to try to get there in November for a few days of WF2011 :-)

[choffmann]

My notion of the extended FS views is this:
1. The side views in FS change the horizon line when you change the pitch, see attached pic.
2. Projecting a rectangular image on a spherical screen distorts the image side borders upwards. This is corrected downwards by warping software.
3. Combining 1. and 2., the warping software will overcorrect the horizon line during pitch changes or in turns, resulting in faulty images like the ones posted in post #1.
4. I believe a solution to this might be the application of the warping software to each single of the 5 undocked windows, not over the whole screen containing all 5 views. Could any of the Nthusim users tell me if these thoughts are correct and if this is possible?

Chris

[Vectro]

I don't think this can be done with Nthusim since you can only make corrections to the whole area of the visual screen, not to single undocked views.

[Maurice]

I don't think this can be done with Nthusim since you can only make corrections to the whole area of the visual screen, not to single undocked views.

Even if you could, that would not help since the view is correct when you are level so if you corrected for a climb or descent, it would look wrong when level. That would have to be something that can change dynamically and I doubt it could be done without major software overhaul.

Maurice

[Henrique]

For some time we tried a single undocked view and it certainly works, its also great on frame rates, however there is a major drawback as Maurice and Scott have noted, it's still only 120 degree maximum and images are stretched.  With this angle you are not really getting the most from your 3 projector setup.  This becomes an issue when coming in on approach as you have very little peripheral view.

If you follow the formula using the Windowmaker.xls tool and make sure your projectors are aligned exactly to the angle you require (eg 60 degree to give a 180 degree view) the 3 views come out almost perfect first go.  There's a much heavier drain on your system however and you will need a high performance PC to run it adequately!

As a test I lined the aircraft nose at the cross point of a perpendicular runway.  If your views are at least 180 degree you should be able to look directly left and right and see straight down the perpendicular runways.  If it isn't then most likely your projector angles aren't the same as your view angles.  Side images still appear angled up slightly using this method but once off the ground it flattens out.  Maurice's images above indicate an exaggeration of this effect and therefore I would suggest incorrect alignment.

Ken.

Hi Ken,

which airport do you use to test the views?

Regards
Henrique

[Kennair]

Hi Henrique,

I used a local small airport here in WA where I knew it had perpendicular runways YCUN (Runways 14 & 23).  Taxi to the cross point, look at the top view of your plane to ensure the windows are at the crosspoint then go back inside and test peripherally.

Ken.