FSX, PM and ILS Landing Check-Need Help.

[blueskydriver]

Trying to verify a problem with either the Aircraft or PM. Could some of you guys fly into KLSE La Crosse, WI onto RWY 18 ILS and see what happens?

Please do a full Autoland, do not fly the last 200feet, use Autobrake 2 setting, use a flap 30 landing with weather being real-time download, and then also check the following:

1. What is you descent rate upon landing, is it less than 700fpm?
2. Right before touchdown are you getting a right drift on the ILS?
3. What happens on the Rollout, does it steer straight?

Please tell which aircraft you're using, if possible can you use PMDG 737-700 with the PM 737-700 standard file (not the PMDG one). Or, if you have the FreeSky 737-700 Contennital, that would work too (still use the standard PM 737-700 within the CDU). Otherwise, if you have neither, use the FSX 737-800 and the PM 737-800 model file.

Finally, for days this issue has been on going. The Autoland is not working correctly. What that means is...things like the Flare does not happen until the last two feet (watching PF screen) and it plows into runway. The ROD on landing is variable from 700-1000FPM. And yes, we do have the weights and balance right with CG at 25.4%, the right amount of fuel (not a full load); its roughly 6000-8000lb (wing tanks/split the amount). Tried landings from 118k lbs to 124k lbs (118k lbs is really light, but tried it).

If you get Autoland to work, please post your results; if it fails on you, then that means it has something to do with another issue somewhere else, ie PM.

Could you also post you PM versions in use?

Additionally, if you could post another airport setup where an Autoland is known to work for you (with all the needed information), we could test it here to help verify our problem. it needs to be FSX and the aforementioned variables.

Thank you,

BSD

[blueskydriver]

Really dying here! Updated all PM files to latest (as of May 20, 2011) and tried KCVG RWY 36C. The LOC/GS/APP locked and the plane was swaying side to side with no wind all the way down! Still, the Autoland worked at 700FPM, but into the grass, no straight landing...

The last time that a full Autoland that has worked right was with FS9 and PMDG. Remembering how pretty that was on both runways listed above. If only PM would give a flight model like PMDG 737-700; it would put them back on top for sure. Or, if only they started selling the flight models for private use and that are specific.

Oh well, just going to keep on trying to get it too work. Going to send Enrico an email since he is back online big-time lately.

Almost forgot, if the silly people in NY are right about the "End of the World", this will be our last post. However, we're not betting on it, so we'll be posting more tomorrow night! Maybe, we should make signs and t-shirts that say "Opps! Wrong World" or "End of the World...in your head!"

BSD

[Bob Reed]

Just so I understand, it works like this on all runways? Not just the 2 you listed? And just to make sure, you are capturing while below the slope?

[saabpilot]

Hello,

Check if you are using PM internal autopilot or FS autopilot.
This can be done in latest build of the CDU.

If you have PM A/P  in use change to FS A/P in the CDU pages and retest. 
It might be that PM A/P need to be "tuned" vs your flight model in FS.

Also, if you use PMDG or a plane model with own "gauges" - make sure that ALL panel gauges are deleted in Panel.cfg.
If not they will disturb PM.

Best,
Bjorn

[blueskydriver]

Time to go bed here...been working this problem since yesterday at 4pm.

@Bob- Yes, at all runways this is happening. Will start out at the IAF and be set with the following example:

KCVG
RWY 36C
Course 005
ILS 109.90
two fixes (shut it already, but they're the one's listed for this rwy)
Set both fixes for 2400'
When ILS/GS APP locks (2 CMD below 1500) the swaying starts from left to right.
Yaw Dampener is on.
Will be at flaps 40 128Vref (have done it +5 and without).
Gear is down
Radio set to 50
Today's Alt. 30.03
No winds 000/0 Calm

Thus, the plane is on a stable approach up until the lock, and then the swaying starts. Have to shut off the AP; otherwise, the landing is a failure.

The ROD is 700-1000' and Flare is set at 50'.

Check the Air File, the PMDG B737-700 ported files, using the PM CDU 737-700.txt file, made sure the PMSystems is using the PMSYS737.txt.

Here is the Payload:

station 1: 0.00lbs
station 2: 1226lbs
station 3: 0.00lbs
station 4: 19585lbs
station 5: 8231lbs
station 6: 4091lbs
station 7: 0.00lbs
station 8: 0.00lbs
station 9: 0.00lbs

Total: 33133lbs

Fuel in Wing Tanks:3000lb each (set for 2000lb and 4000lb as well).

Rough Aircraft weight was 125.0 k lbs, with CG at 23% (with other fuel amounts it would be 24%).

This has to be a PM update(s) or something not easily found...

@Bjorn- Where is this setting to change the PM CDU to see the PM AP is being used as opposed to FS AP is used. Is this a new setting? If so, where is it exactly...which page?

As for the PMDG 737-700, the panel.cfg has been changed to just show views a long time ago. Otherwise, it is good to go.

Finally, a guess is it could be the MCP update. Nothing else has changed with FDS MCP unit or the files related to it. If all else fails, then it'll be another rollback or two... Sent Enrico the email and hopefully, he will repsond.

Additionally, is there a few guys here who have the same setups... FDS MCP, Overhead, CDU unit, with PM Suite and PmSystems, with PMDG 737-700 ported in, and it all working? If so, if one of you will just try to make an ILS Autoland into KLSE Rwy 18 ILS or KCVG Rwy 18 or 36 ILS, or KMSP Rwy 12 R/L or 30 R/L ILS; if it works for you then it should for us...uh, close to working anyway.

Thanks for all the help, we'll be back on tonight.

Team BSD

[Bob Reed]

Ahhhhhhh the dreaded update syndrome!!!! I NEVER installed the latest updates, especially if my AC was flying right. 9 times out of 10 something else broke in an update. I had a small desktop setup I tested all the updates on. And I would wait until they seemed stable before I would install. Roll back and see if that cures the problem. Also if you updated just the CDU and not the rest of the software (if there are updates for them as well) sometimes that can cause the problem.     

[saabpilot]

Not close to the sim right now so I cannot lead you in 

But as far as I remember the new functions are under MENU/Extras in the CDU - but you do have to use the latest builds.
Do not just update the CDU, but update them all otherwise you can get into trouble.

Bjorn

[blueskydriver]

Tried again this morning, same thing. Working with Enrico now. After doing some reading this problem has happened in the past...

Can someone please post a copy of the Aircraft.cfg for the PMDG 737-700 ported into FSX that is working? Want to look at it based on the CG position information and what you have for FS Station loads.

Also, @Bjorn not sure where the part in the CDU you're talking about is, couldn't find it. The only thing we've seen is not to use the Autopilot Beta check box in the MCP setup dialog.

Otherwise, where do you tell the CDU or MCP to use or not to use FS MCP control; can you please look this up for the correct location?

Finally, @ Bob, in agreement with you about the update syndrome. Problem is, not sure if this was from this most recent update or the one before. Getting to the point of stopping for awhile or break out the video camera to show step-by-step from turning on the first computer to seeing the autoland bombing out. That way, if anyone sees miss steps, they can point them out. That way, the "user error" can be ruled out...

But first, going back to bed after just checking again from 3AM till now, and then watching the same side to side swaying on ILS lock; it just gets frustrating.

Hopefully, someone else will get a chance to check their setup for this issue soon.

BSD

[Bob Reed]

I don't think this is anything you are doing so stop trying to "find" what you are doing wrong. When did you notice this? Is this a feature you where not using and just decided to try it and that is how you noticed there was an issue? This has happened before and I think it is a PM issue and you either have to roll back or wait for PM to fix it.

[Maurice]

This isn't going to help you too much, but I tried KLSE rwy 18 and KCVG rwy 18L and in both cases, the autoland worked but the plane landed on the grass to the left of the runway although there was no swaying right & left like you experienced. Now, I'm using SimA software with FSX and the FS9 PMDG 700 model so this isn't at all what you are using but at least you'll know that landing on the grass is happening as well with software other than PM.

I do recall that with FSX, the ILS on a few airports did not work at all. Noticeably, on one of the Vancouver westbound runways, the plane would start climbing when it captured the glideslope but it did not do that with FS9. So FSX brings its own set of problems to add to any PM or SimA problems so you can't always blame PM when things don't work.

After Jack's visit to my sim, these kinds of things don't bother me as much anymore. Why bother with autoland at all. It's much more interesting & much less boring to take over at least during short final and not let the A/P do all the work. Jack would be mortified just at the thought of autolanding the airplane   

Maurice

[blueskydriver]

Maurice, will you post an airport ICAO that u know where the Autoland works, and then we can try that here? At least that way we could rule airport(s) as the issue. Agree with you not to blame PM of course, but when it works before an update, then fails afterwards, it only be the update.

The problem is which update, CDU, MCP, GC, PMSystems is it that's causing the issue. Bob suggests to rollback and that is the next step tonight, but wanted to try another known working airport ILS to verify first.

Thank you for checking this by the way...

BSD

We're in the cockpit now using the Ipad...

[Maurice]

CYYZ 24R if my memory serves me right. At least it did not land on the grass  . I'll try & confirm tomorrow if I get a chance.

Maurice

[Maurice]

Here is another one where the autoland was about as perfect as it could be: LFPG Rwy 26R

Maurice

[blueskydriver]

Yesterday, we had finished up redoing all the PM computers (8 of them). That included reinstalling all the PM program files as if it were the first time we installed them. Then, we added all of the updates (as of 5/27/2011) one-by-one. It was very frustrating and long to do this.

After it was all done, we had the same problem. Here is where the real problem lies...the PM MCP program. If in FS Auto-pilot mode the aircraft will follow the ILS GS down, but give lateral oscillation starting at the IAP and worse when at the last 1000 feet. Then, in PM Auto-pilot mode it will give vertical oscillation from 100ft above and 100ft below when the ALT is set or pretty much all the time.

Of course, we could have the mode titles switched because when looking the PM CDU, MAINT, A/P screen you really can't tell which mode you're in. If you see the title on the screen that means your in that mode or is it backwards. In other words, it seems the switching of modes is reversed.

Finally, the irony of all of this is, today, on the PM New Website post by Treavor, he points out at the end about a new PM MCP update dealing with this very issue. Thus, we hope to try this and see if it fixes the problem. Maybe, Enrico looked into this really good and updated it. We have been emailing him about this issue.

So, thanks Trevor for following PM. Also, we hope this this helps with Scott's question in the other post about what the status of PM is like in regards to the software, updates and service...

BSD

[MLeavy737]

  In a 737 your not supposed to let the autopilot continue to "guide" the airplane once you touchdown.  As soon as you touchdown you need to disconnect the autopilot and authrottle and stop and steer it yourself.

Just saying

Mike Leavy

[FLY737]

Gentlemen, in the new Project Magenta Forum all these issues are discussed now:
http://www.projectmagenta.com/forums/
It is worth to visit there from time to time!

[jackpilot]

Good point René.
JP

[Bob Reed]

Yes the new forum at PM is looking very promising!

[blueskydriver]

Mike, thanks for the information regarding this about what happens upon touchdown. It is so awesome to have you here to make us virtual pilots into more like real pilots...dont ever leave us!

@Rene for pointing out that PM had the forum going, we didn't see that until you mentioned it. In fact, after going over to check it out, we saw a post by some folks that included Thomas Richter having the same problem. Enrico has found the issue, so if anyone else is having this problem, but haven't gone over to PM forums, you need too.

Thanks Guys,

BSD

[MLeavy737]

Mike, thanks for the information regarding this about what happens upon touchdown. It is so awesome to have you here to make us virtual pilots into more like real pilots...dont ever leave us!

Thanks

BSD

Lol! Ive been around since the beginning of sim world creation. Im not going anywhere lol.  Im looking forward to doing some flying with you guys one of these days. Your sim or mine.

Mike Leavy

[jskibo]

Well Mike, if you're hanging around KGRR after August, come fly mine

[blueskydriver]

Good News! The PM Update fix for the MCP works. Now, we're making full stop Autolands. Yes, most landings are not Autoland, but this function is an important feature to practice. Thus, the insistance that it works...

Therefore, the purpose of this thread is now Resolved; way to go PM and Enrico. Oh, if you haven't check out the website, you must. For current (and future) customers, PM is going all out.

BSD

[Maurice]

Therefore, the purpose of this thread is now Resolved; way to go PM and Enrico. Oh, if you haven't check out the website, you must. For current (and future) customers, PM is going all out.

BSD

That's why a little competition is a great thing. It motivates the suppliers to do better. PM is not the only choice anymore, so no wonder they are trying harder.

Maurice