Serious discussion about various FS flight models.

[Maurice]

Over the years, there have been many discussions, agreements and disagreements about which flight model can be considered the best flight model for any particular aircraft. I too have wondered which 737 was best and kept trying different models without really knowing which one was the closest to reality but relying on hear say from some knowledgeable or not so knowledgeable members here and other forums.

The discussions are made more complicated as people are also talking about X-Plane or the never forthcoming new PMDG for FSX or even the future Microsoft Flight.

Bottom line for me anyway was that this was a constant source of frustration and I always wondered why I could not be satisfied with whatever model I picked. Was it because of a belief the plane was not behaving like the way I thought a 737 should behave?  In fact, how could I ever know how a real 737 behaves unless I was able to fly a real one or even a CAE simulator or have a real 737 pilot like Mike fly my simulator? Since neither is possible nor likely, then I really have no way of knowing how 'real' my simulator is.

And this is when I had an 'awakening' and realized I already had the perfect 737 flight model and I didn't even know it. Since this is all make believe anyway, I decided that Boeing had just come up with a new version of the 737-800 and that Boeing engineers came to test my simulator and confirmed without a doubt that my simulator flies exactly like their new design and that I should not change anything. In fact, they used my current flight model to design their new version since they were so impressed by how well my plane behaved.

So, my search is now over since I have the perfect flight model. And no matter what any of you fly, you also have the perfect flight model as well. Just imagine like I did that your flight model was used as the template for a new design of whatever plane you are flying.

Now this may sound like childish behaviour and I know that some of you will be horrified by that approach, but really...if you are not type rated in your particular airplane, how will you ever know how good your sim really is? And my approach is really not that unbelievable after all.

Let's say that you think your airplane climbs much too fast or does not stall when you think it should or is too responsive or not responsive enough to control inputs or whatever else you don't like or think is wrong. How can you ever be sure that the next version of that airplane will not behave that way as well? Maybe they will add more power so the plane climbs faster, or they will make the controls less or more responsive in response to pilot inputs or they will change the wing design so it cannot ever stall etc...etc...

Let's also say that your A/P, VNAV etc does not seem quite right. What if the FAA decided that VNAV made the pilots too lazy and/or made them lose their ability to really fly the airplane and decided VNAV was too risky and banned its use?

Bottom line, what if you really do have the perfect current flight model of airplane X which absolutely flies like airplane X and airplane X gets completely re-designed and your flight model is now all wrong?

So, personally, I now feel totally happy with my flight model  (default FSX 737-800) even if it has some flaws, imagined or real. I can really learn how to fly it as is and get the best possible enjoyment from just knowing that I am flying a very complex simulator at a fraction of the cost of a multimillion dollar one. 

Landing a jet with an imperfect flight model can be as challenging as, or even more challenging than landing it if it was perfect and certainly just as enjoyable if you just use your imagination and pretend this is the real thing. After all, aren't we all in the business of pretending?

Will I ever buy the new PMDG model when it does come out? Maybe, but it will not likely be because of how well it flies but maybe because of some other features such as a better sound package, or more liveries if & when I start flying online and can actually be seen by other pilots, or some other goodies not currently available.

Anyway, hopefully this post will make you happier with whatever you are flying. If not, you can choose to forever chase your elusive dream. Whatever makes you happy is definitely the right way for you. 

Maurice

[Nat Crea]

Spot On Mau...

Not one of our sims will ever fly like the real deal...
737 Pilots I talk to complain about their LevelD Sims too...

So tune a model to what makes you happy and content, and fly...

I dont think POSKY is perfect either, but I found it to be the best combination
with Sim-A...

Nat

[saabpilot]

You are right guys,

I am a professional pilot with 10000 hrs+ in left seat and some 7-8 hrs in Level-D sims every year for proficiency checks.
There is only "similarities" in flight handling when you compare even multimillion $ sims with the real airplanes.
E.g. - a landing in the sim is twice or three times harder than in the real aircraft.
This as it is impossible to program all environmental variables 100% correct and also that is not really necessary since you mostly do system training and emergency handling in the sims.   In that areas the IRL Level-D sims are 100% corresponding with the real aircraft.

I use FS9 with POSKY B737 and PM 737 in my sim.
The flight model is tuned to my liking and within what is possible with the 200 $ FS9 sim 
Usually I have to adjust speed brake efficiency and do some flight control response tuning, but more than that I have found very difficult and I have to "live" with some discrepancies like the model does not rotate at Vr or climbs a bit too fast or too slow 

That said, some airfile models are worse than others so any input here is of course appreciated.
As an example - PMDG 737, an otherwise excellent airplane with good system interpretation have an airfile with CoG out of bounds.
Results in totally wrong trim settings to have it even lift off the ground far after Vr.

I believe no one will never find the ideal airfile for FS, so best I think is to tune one to your own liking and stick to it 


My 5 cents,
Bjorn

[Maurice]

I believe no one will never find the ideal airfile for FS, so best I think is to tune one to your own liking and stick to it 

Bjorn

Exactly what I really meant to say. Tuning an airfile or config file is perfectly OK if there is something you don't particularly like; just don't be unhappy if you can't make it behave the way you think the real airplane behaves, which was what bugged me for a long time.

Maurice

[astron]

Good read Maurice,  I think its about time people learn to accept what they have,because if you just cant,you will end up in the looney bin.    and i have always been one to pick a flight model that suits me and my comfort zone, why do i care what anybody else thinks, im flying the plane.  Also the majority of the guys that have built these sims didnt do it with the intention that they would ever become real 737 pilots anyway. i did it because i love airplanes and get a kick out of it.    Also i have tryed many other flight models but always go back to the default 737 model, why because in my opinion it flys the best, also remember that all of these other flight models out there have been taken from the original model and changed. Im pretty sure that the guys at microsoft did a little bit of research before just throwing numbers out there when they built the flight model,   we are using the default model along with sim-A and it works great for me.

Tom

[Maurice]

  we are using the default model along with sim-A and it works great for me.

Tom

Ditto!   . I tried all the others as well with Sim-A and I concluded I like the FSX default best.

Maurice

[jackpilot]

Excellent point Mau and Well said Bjorn

So much easier with the real airplane around you. Has also to do with all this feedback from the beast that you cant  have in a sim, including the perfection of the visual clues!!

I found that the speed /configuration data for a specific type and engines  are a  good yardstick for evaluating a flight model reactions in flight.
Which means, when climbing to cruise altitude or starting the descent, or better, on approach, the aircraft must be easy to fly with small inputs and stable in its behaviour as long as you apply the prescribed amount of power or maintain the proper speed for a specific configuration.

If it does not, or worst it it flies well whatever the speed and the config , beware. !!
Besides, to test a flight model, AP, AT And FMC must be out of the picture!

To get all the proper figures you have to dig into the data charts  available in the Performance section of the aircraft manuals
(EX: page 750 to 855 of the very good 737 Continental Op manual which covers from the 300 to the 900) There is an incredible amount of data to digest and it makes us realized that we do not even scratch the surface of what we should know to decently fly an airliner .

Note :I use the Posky 700 and found it fairly accurate vs the published perf. data (FS9). Only decreased a bit  the longitudinal axis (roll) stability which necessitates too much input to maintain a bank angle in the original version.

[fsaviator]

All good input, but Jack hit it on the head...

I've tried all sorts of models, and my biggest concern is that I get as close to the available published manuals...  for me, that is the the Ryan Air 737-800 manuals that are out there, as I have the full set printed and bound.

I could care less about PMDG, iFly, Ariane, etc...  I've moved on to a full sim, and have no reason to use those products UNLESS...  the model and airfile fly closer to the published specs.

My only other concern is that the external visual view be good enough for some nice screenshots

Warren

[727737Nut]

One major part of the equation you all have left out is your controls! Which do you think is going to 'feel' more real, a joystick or a real colum that moves the exact same amount as the real one and is properly calibrated.  See, i went from a joystick, to a homemade, then to a real yoke in a real shell. All on the same model plane.  Guess which one made it feel like a real plane. The real yoke with real amount of movement.

Rob

[fsaviator]

I hear ya, Rob.

I think I'm covered with the ACE dual yokes and the Rev-Sim TQ.

That's exactly why I don't want to sacrifice with the model

Warren

[727737Nut]

I had a real world 737 pilot come to my sim back in the day when i had the real shell and all. He said roll was spot on but pitch was off a tad.  I adjust the elevator area and effectiveness and got it spot on in his words.   The biggest issue is loss of altitude in turns and pitch change with flaps.  That is going to take some work. 

Happy Flying!

[MLeavy737]

Good read Maurice i think your right and thats a great way to think about it. For me i always felt its a curse flying the real one 85hrs a month and expect to get the same performance and handling out of Flight Sim or Xplane. Not up to that point yet but im looking forward to the challange when the time comes
 
Just have some fun. I think theres more to gain out of a sim in the way you fly it. Not the way it flys. Then again i always say that here so thats not a suprise

Btw ill do my best to visit as many sims as i can and give some feedback when possible Ill be in Calgary Friday.. Someone has a sim there i remember?

Mike Leavy

[Maurice]

I think theres more to gain out of a sim in the way you fly it. Not the way it flys.

Mike Leavy

These are definitely very wise words  .

Maurice

[DaveC]

Btw ill do my best to visit as many sims as i can and give some feedback when possible Ill be in Calgary Friday.. Someone has a sim there i remember?

Mike Leavy

Hi Mike,

I'm in Calgary!!!  Would LOVE to have you over.  Sucks that I am on vacation in Las Vegas right now though.  Maybe next time.  Should have a better setup by then anyway.

Dave C.

[MLeavy737]

Dave,
  Sounds good. Look forward to it.

Mike Leavy

[blueskydriver]

Mike,

Just curious, if you want to visit us sometime, let us know. However, can we please come visit your real cockpit? Not the sim one, but the big awesome one you fly for the J.O.B.?

Would only need the jumpseat since it'd only be one of the two us going...can you guess who that would be? Seriously, that is the ultimate dream to fly jumpseat just once. That would be something to really crawl and scoot to get to do...yes, really do mean that.

Wheelchair to the door or air stairs, and then scoot the rest of the way, it would be worth getting dirty. Already did this up the back stairs of a B727, so why not an operational B737?

Maurice, not hi-jacking, just trying to find a way to get two birds with one engine or uh,...stone: A jumpseat ride and a better understanding of flight models. Although, the first one is the real reason...lol

Best Regards,

BSD

[MLeavy737]

BSD,
  Hey i would love to visit your sim.. Look forward to it. Unfortunately there is no chance of getting you in the jumpseat unless you are an authorized crew member flying for the airlines already obviously since 911 things changed quite a bit. One of them was the implementation of a crew member jumpseat program that verfies known crewmembers to allow them on the jumpseat. Its so strict that sometimes when the system is down its even difficult to get people who fly for our own airline in there!
  Best i can do is offer you a visit to my sim when its up and running and ill show ya a thing or two.. Not as good as the real one but hopefully it will be pretty close!

Mike Leavy

[blueskydriver]

Mike,

Totally understand about the restrictions, but it was wishful thinking, so at least the fantasy was a good one. Certainly would love to see your sim though and pick-up some real inside info from you in person, and that would be just as good as riding jumpseat.

Thank you so much,

BSD