Reflections about the latest visitors to my sim

[Trevor Hale]

Ok ok. Done deal. Mau, that's a good idea and yes it was all about doing a quick circuit for everyone to get a turn.

Mike. I agree that not everyone can start one let alone fly it but I should be better than that. Perhaps it's a good thing I dont have the 737 anymore. But I am sorry I still love that bird.

And any chance I get to fly one I will take it. Especially after doing the circuit in SAMs with the motion. That was one hell of an awesome experience. I never realized how much a distraction the movement would be over concentrating on the instruments.

Good times. And hope it will be sooner then later. Just have to scrape some $ together for flights.

Trev

[MLeavy737]

I never realized how much a distraction the movement would be over concentrating on the instruments.

Trev

Lol, its even more fun when your some real good turb. and you cant even see the instruments!

Mike L

[Jetcos]

Finishing a few items to the motion simulator.

2 front window handles and 2 cup holders for Sam. Had the Stab Trim motor working on Monday, nice addition!


Working on the shipping now and then we dis-assemble. Then off to it's new home.

[Bob Reed]

Finishing a few items to the motion simulator.

2 front window handles and 2 cup holders for Sam. Had the Stab Trim motor working on Monday, nice addition!


Working on the shipping now and then we dis-assemble. Then off to it's new home.

James was saying he missed and really needed those handels.

[vidarf]

Steve, if you "mistakenly" swap the shipment papers on Sam's and my glare shield order, I won't yell too much...

Great setup! Can't wait to get my own sim up and running. Mau's sim and the videos here really gave me a motivation boost!

[Sean]

My fav part from them is when Trevor mentions the V speeds...  "V speeds?  Naa i dont need any V speeds, i know them! Lol...

Oh, come on! Every one of us knows, flap 5, 130kt, pull back, and you're up. Heck, I can even get out of London City every time!

This is a great thread. Maurice, you are so right in your 'reflections', but I still want a needle that moves.

Wish I was there.

Sean

[MLeavy737]

My fav part from them is when Trevor mentions the V speeds...  "V speeds?  Naa i dont need any V speeds, i know them! Lol...

Oh, come on! Every one of us knows, flap 5, 130kt, pull back, and you're up. Heck, I can even get out of London City every time!

Sean

Well thanks to the lack of realistic flight modelling provided by FS at least obviously in the takeoff phase, FL5 and 130kts will prob work everytime! From what i remember you can put the trim anywhere you want it as well and still lift off ok!?!?

Not even close to real! First of all depending on model 737 on any given day you could see at least a 40kt difference in Vr speeds. Next is trim.. Trim is calculated by load planning and rounded to the nearest 1/4..  You can actually feel the difference when its even slightly out of trim in either direction, even just 1/4 units difference. You can also be so far off that the airplane wont even liftoff the ground or so far that the airplane will liftoff early and you wont have enough control authority to even bring the nose lower.

However i can understand why Microsoft or whoever would probably not want to develop a sim where you have to calculate trim to those standards because people would be crashing all the time! Lol.

Well i probably got a little ahead of myself here but you get the idea lol...So anyway, using FS.. Yes your right, you dont need any speeds, FL5, 130 kts and your good to go!

Mike L

[Sean]

LOL! I just watched those videos for the 1st time. I didn't realise Trev was using the good old 130kt rule! Works every time. LOL!

And Mike, it says "As Real As It Gets" on my copy!

Maurice, your sim is bloody excellent. Love the visuals, loved the engine sounds. What A/C you using?

Sean

[Maurice]

Maurice, your sim is bloody excellent. Love the visuals, loved the engine sounds. What A/C you using?

Sean

Thanks Sean. I'm using good ol' FSX default 800 with a mixture of PMDG NGX sounds and default 800 sounds.  I have had several real captains (not 737 pilots) fly my sim and nobody had anything bad to say about the way FSX behaves, probably because they are not type rated on the 737 and do not know how a real 737 behaves (much like what I said several times in the past). If you don't know how the real 737 behaves, how would you know the --- flight model you use is not 'as real at it gets'  .

And Mike, having said that, I don't quite agree with your assessment of FSX either "FL5 and 130kts will prob work everytime! From what i remember you can put the trim anywhere you want it as well and still lift off ok!?!?"

From what I have experienced, if you load the FSX model to the max with a full load of fuel as well, it certainly won't lift off easily and climb like a rocket. In the past, I crashed many times after take off or I was not even able to lift off before the end of the runway when I totally ignored all the rules.

FSX is far from perfect, but it is a heck of a lot better than what many people are saying and frankly, I suspect that most of the negative criticism about the FSX flight model comes from those who are still building their flight decks and are not spending much time flying it (you know who you are  . I do certainly understand why a real 737 pilot such as yourself would want the sim to behave like the real 737 but the great majority of flight deck builders are not even commercial pilots or even private pilots. never mind type rated 737 pilots.

All I can say again is that 3 corporate jet pilots and one 777 pilot have flown my sim and not one had anything bad to say about the default 737 flight model. They all had a great time as far as I could tell and they just accepted the flight characteristics for what they were & dealt with them in the same way as they would if they changed from one airplane type to another with different flight behaviour.

Honestly, I think there is way too much hype about --- flight models. But I do understand why XP has so much appeal in other areas where it is far superior to FSX. All I am saying is that the flight characteristics should not be the prime reason for switching but that is my personal view of course and I'm sure nobody is going to be convinced to stay with FSX because of what I said (and maybe not even myself 

What is of interest to me more than the normal flight characteristics however are the abnormal flight behaviours, such as loss of one engine or stall behaviour or icing conditions or icy runways or any other unusual situations and this is likely where XP may be way superior to FSX. I had better stop before I convince myself to switch 

Maurice

[Bob Reed]

I agree with you 100% Maurice! And with that in mind, I have an idea how the 737 should fly and so do you!  (now neither one of us have ever flown a 737) My sim wont fly like yours! There is nothing wrong with that. Your sim will fly how you think it should and mine will fly how I think it should. FSX, XP they are just the means to get where we want. What is acceptable to one may not be for the other. My big problem with FSX, other then the pure horsepower required to get it to look good is the fact that it is abandon ware. Yes thats right, MS has left us for more lucrative fields. We like to think that we are this big customer base for them, but stop and think about it, how many copies did you actually buy? 3 or 4 of each version at most? Once purchased you never have to buy it again. Not profitable. I say all this to say I am looking at XP just because it is still being developed. If you are interested I say test it thoroughly before committing to it! Yes it has good points but there are bad as well. It is a trade off. And remember it is what YOU the owner of the sim feels is right. Makes no difference what I think.

[MLeavy737]

And Mike, having said that, I don't quite agree with your assessment of FSX either "FL5 and 130kts will prob work everytime! From what i remember you can put the trim anywhere you want it as well and still lift off ok!?!?"

From what I have experienced, if you load the FSX model to the max with a full load of fuel as well, it certainly won't lift off easily and climb like a rocket. In the past, I crashed many times after take off or I was not even able to lift off before the end of the runway when I totally ignored all the rules.

FSX is far from perfect, but it is a heck of a lot better than what many people are saying and frankly, I suspect that most of the negative criticism about the FSX flight model comes from those who are still building their flight decks and are not spending much time flying it (you know who you are  . I do certainly understand why a real 737 pilot such as yourself would want the sim to behave like the real 737 but the great majority of flight deck builders are not even commercial pilots or even private pilots. never mind type rated 737 pilots.

Maurice

The FL5, 130kts thing i'm sure i'm just generalizing just a little bit much. I know its not completely true but i was just responding the Sean calling me out on it lol!! Im sure he was joking with me but i just had to add my 2 cents on that one. Especially when my life and 165 others in the back depends on trim setting and V speeds every time i fly!  Plus i would fail a checkride for it

BTW, hopefully by now most of you know that i always try to give that little different perspective on flying and sim building. I'm fortunate enough to be a longtime builder and somehow now get to fly 737's for a living.  Hopefully everyone here doesn't take my comments as me being a smart ass or something. Everyone on the forums has always given me help and motivation so i consider my info as way to give back to the community.  (take or leave it.. i'm still gonna give it!! lol)

Having said that.. Maurice, we always talk about this and in the end we both agree that you have to build, fly and stick to whatever makes you happy.  I remember flying my sim with PMDG, default and whatever else i had in that thing before i flew the real ones and i was completely happy as other should be as well. Unfortunately theres always that "Well could this be better and this real pilot said this model is better and heres a new product etc.." its in our nature to build and fly more realistically.

Im guilty of not having flown Xplane in a full functioning sim so your right, i probably shouldnt comment too much about it lol.. Theres things i liked in FS and things i liked in Xplane, its definately going to be a tough choice.

I feel like here we go again but i have always said theres just something in the flight modelling that I like in Xplane alot better than FS. Its just so much more fluid/dynamic that it just feels alot more realistic and that works for me. I dont want my sim to be easy to fly. I have turned up the turb. in FS to max and shot some approaches and landings.. To me its nothing like a real airplane.  Turn in up in Xplane and your working to get that thing on the ground.. yes you have to work in FS but its just a completely different feeling.. One that I like and "I" think is more realistic..

Lets just do this.... Ill get my sim flying with Xplane in it. When im happy and satisfied its as close as i can get to the real airplane, each and everyone of you can come by and ill show you exactly why "I" think its more realistic.. After that you all can go back to your sim and do whatever you want! lol... Then we wont have to spend so much time "talking" about the comparison!! Until then im really not going to attempt to convince anyone to do otherwise..  Deal???

Mike L

[Maurice]

Hopefully everyone here doesn't take my comments as me being a smart ass or something.

Believe me Mike...I'm 100% sure NOBODY is taking your comments as coming form a smart ass  . I'm also 100% sure almost everybody enjoys these discussions and/or disagreements about various topics. In my opinion, it keeps this forum alive and fun and it would be a very sad day if we had to be 100% serious all the time and always agree on everything.

I'm sure nobody wants that so please keep saying whatever you want to say at anytime. I know that I always very much enjoy your posts and all the people that matter do as well. Life is much too short to take ourselves too seriously, especially about a hobby 

Maurice

[Bob Reed]

Hopefully everyone here doesn't take my comments as me being a smart ass or something.

Believe me Mike...I'm 100% sure NOBODY is taking your comments as coming form a smart ass  . I'm also 100% sure almost everybody enjoys these discussions and/or disagreements about various topics. In my opinion, it keeps this forum alive and fun and it would be a very sad day if we had to be 100% serious all the time and always agree on everything.

I'm sure nobody wants that so please keep saying whatever you want to say at anytime. I know that I always very much enjoy your posts and all the people that matter do as well. Life is much too short to take ourselves too seriously, especially about a hobby 

Maurice

BUT YOU ARE USING THE WRONG COLOR!!!! Woops.... I regress....... Sorry guys I could not help myself.... 

[MLeavy737]

Life is much too short to take ourselves too seriously, especially about a hobby 

Maurice

Amen brother!!!

I agree, its fun to disagree at times.. Even if we don't get anywhere with these discussions (which we probably never do) its fun just talking airplanes.  We have a great bunch here. I really wish i had the chance to meet those that attended the get together. Next time for sure!

I was talking to Bob about this and i may have mentioned before.. its nice to be around people who actually "Enjoy" airplanes and sim building.. I fly with so many people that are just so sick of aviation and airplanes that its almost annoying. On a 4 days trip we'll talk about anything but airplanes its seems.  Also funny when i show sim pics or explain the hobby that exists in the world today. These dudes are not only clueless but wonder why anyone would ever want to do something like we do.. I just laugh really. Too bad some of those guys lost the love of aviation..

So if i go on rants its probably because you all are the only ones who will listen and i cant hold it back anymore! lol.. My wife gave up listening  a long time ago btw.!!

Ohh did i mention... FS flight modelling sucks!!! LOL!!

Mike L

[MLeavy737]

These dudes are not only clueless but wonder why anyone would ever want to do something like we do..

I also remember the look i got when i took out some tracing paper, put it on a display and started tracing the gauges for the  displays im working on... That was priceless!!!!!

People do in fact think were nuts!

Mike L

[fsaviator]

Mike,
try reminding all those guys what they went through to get into that right/left seat, and why they did it.  Then tell them that there are thousands of rated pilots out there that just couldn't for whatever reason, make it to the majors.

When I hear the stories of hundreds of hours in the right seat cheating death on every take-off and landing as CFI's (maybe that was just my instructor ), the hours racked out in corners of the airport to save on the hotel bills, the years spent in training to get an ATP...  why did they do it?  Definitely not for the pay.  They had to have some love of aviation.

I know I appreciate the efforts, and always thank the guys up front when I fly.  After all, they got me from point A to point B without killing me, and it's not their fault there is no legroom and all the attendants have tenure and are pissed at the world

[Sean]

Of course I was pulling your leg with the 130kt thing.    What made it funnier was watching the video afterwards and Trev saying pretty much the same thing, so I guess I'm not alone on this.

I have a PPL and had hoped to go on and fly commercially, but crap eyesight put a halt to that. So that's why I decided to build a sim. I'm really interested in complex aircraft systems and airline operating procedures and to me that is more important than a realistic flight model (I'm not saying it wouldn't be nice if the flight models were more accurate tho). That's also why I want a needle that moves! 

But there are occasions, mainly when a non-simmer visits, they just want to fly, so it's 5 degrees of flap, 130kts and away we go. And Maurice, you are correct. If I've got a full load, I'm ploughing the field at the end of the runway for a little before I'm airborne too! 

Mike, I envy you, but in no way consider you a smartass. I've got close friends and a relative who fly commercially and it makes my blood boil when all they do is moan about work. Perhaps they would've been better off with a real job, eh? 

It's great that you have the passion you have for aviation. I'd like to think I'd be that way if I had gone on to fly for a living. So please don't stop sticking your 2c in. I, like everyone else here look forward to and enjoy your posts. You are after all our "man on the inside"! 

Best regards to you all.

Sean

[jackpilot]

Off topic but.....Mike I'll never forget that you did this for us all.
This is dedication or what!!
Thank you
Jack

[rhysb]

Maurice,

On a similar note is your sim still in the same garage that Peter brought me too about 10 years ago? I just remember it being the greatest garage I think I had ever seen!!

[Maurice]

Maurice,

On a similar note is your sim still in the same garage that Peter brought me too about 10 years ago? I just remember it being the greatest garage I think I had ever seen!!

OK Rhys, now you've got me really worried. If what you say is true, either I am becoming totally senile or else I also live in another dimension  . I have no recollection of a visit from Peter & you 10 years ago in my garage especially since there never was a sim in my garage, although my old garage was a 'cool' garage  . In fact, I only met Peter about 8 years ago.

So, you must be thinking of somebody else. Please say you made a mistake and I'm right or else I need medication right now

Maurice

[vidarf]

Meds aren't going to help either of us, Mau...

[Maurice]

Meds aren't going to help either of us, Mau...

Depends on which meds. I know some that would make sim frustrations much more bearable 

Maurice

[MLeavy737]

Off topic but.....Mike I'll never forget that you did this for us all.
This is dedication or what!!
Thank you
Jack

Ha! That was pretty funny now that i think about it! Lol.. Asking the captain to slide up a little so i could write down some numbers lol.. Good times

Mike L

[rhysb]

Might be 8 years ago...ish but now you have me worried as swear it was your 737 sim Peter took me too!! Maybe I'm the senile one???

[Maurice]

Might be 8 years ago...ish but now you have me worried as swear it was your 737 sim Peter took me too!! Maybe I'm the senile one???

Let's just call it forgetful instead of senile :-). I think it was just about 8 years ago I walked into Peter's first shop and told him I was thinking about building a generic sim. Peter promptly talked me out of building something generic and the rest is history. So, a 737 sim existed only in my thoughts :-)

Maurice