Back to building....

[jskibo]

Well, with winter approaching and since I'm only a month away from getting my commercial license, I thik its time to pull the tarp off the MIP and get serious again.

Going to head to Home Depot and order the wood for my base this weekend.  I'll do some final measuring to see if I can fit the PJ system in the bay and if I can will get the material for that as well.

I have to reload the PC that had the Sim software on it as I had an SSD that was in a RAID crash and wipe out everything.  That drive was backed up, but still a pain. 

What's the current thinking?  Move to Xplane or stick with FSX?  I have the North American version of Xplane now as I use it on my triple 40" setup for Instrument practice.  The PC running the Sim side is an older 1st Gen i7 with 12GB and dual GTX 275 cards.

I have few things coming from XOrionFE that should accelerate a bit of my build (Thank you Scott).  Will just be short the overhead and a few pedestall radios (have dual NAV and COMM only at this point).  I can fly without the overhead right?  have the Yoke stored away from 737yoke and an early Rev-Sim throttle (geeze I need to program SOIC again....yikes!)

My PJs are the Optoma GT720's, so not the shortest throw at .72.  I found two of the EW230UST's for $500 each, but would then have to source another, but it would get me to a .50 throw.....Dunno

Will be nice to get this thing to a flying condition finally, even if its left seat gear only for now......

[XOrionFE]

Hey John,

I think I may switch back to FSX for a while.   I tried the 64 bit version of X-Plane and unfortunately the Fly-Elise warping software doesnt appear to work with it so I had to switch back to the 32 bit version.  The other issue is that when banking in X-Plane with 3 high powered systems I still am getting lag from the side view computers.  Just momentary (a second maybe) but enough to cause the horizon to momentarily seperate at the seams.  Then they stabalize and come back together.   I also still have a number of hardware compatibility issues with X-Plane that I had hoped would be getting close to resolution but still no timeframe insight.   So I think in the end the single PC approach with FSX or Prepar3d with multiple undocked views is the simplist most headache free way of doing this.   I also have tried Wideview but have not been impressed.  It also exhibits terrible sync problems with weather, time of day, and traffic that I have been unable to resolve.  Again, pushing me back to the carefree days last year of running a single FSX PC.    Going to try going back to this way for a while and let X-Plane continue to bake.

Scott

[jskibo]

Thanks!  I may pick your brain a bit (as usual) on the undocked view setup if I find I have the space to run the PJ setup. 

Since we finished the basement with the Theater and Bar, I've be relegated to the 3rd bay in the garage.  My hope was to fit it in and then eventually build a wall in there so I can separate and heat it.  I have plenty of ceiling height depending on placement (want to keep the screens and PJ away from the door and opener, but the back corner has the breaker panel so I can't wall off access to it with the screen.  Little bit of planning left to do!

I'll stick with FSX for now and see how it goes...

Is Fly-Elise the best (cost effective) choice at this point?

[XOrionFE]

I think Fly-Elise is the most cost effective but not entirely confident enough to say the best.   I have had issues with video going haywire in the past when swithing in and out of FSX.  For instance, with Wideview running in FSX whenever I go into the Wideview configuration screens they are setup with a different rendering and cause FSX to go black and mouse gets lost.   I then have to do an ALT-ENTER to go in and out of full screen to get everything back.  I dont like having to do that.   I never had that problem with NThusim and the only reason I do Fly-Elise is to have a cost savings over Nthusim when doing 3 computers.  But you know what they say....you get what you pay for.   Money aside I think Nthusim is more stable with video.    I will say that I like Fly-Elise warping control better and the fact that you can modifiy warping from within FSX while it is running.    These are just my experiences and of course some of the problems can always reside between the keyboard and the chair.     Best is to get the demos of each and try for yourself.

In regards to your space, maybe when I drive up we can setup the shell and I can tell you if I think you will have room for the projection.

Looking forward to it.

Scott

[jskibo]

Was thinking of this way for placement.  That way I can access the breaker box, the garage door opener and tracks really don't inpact the screen or PJ placement and to get a bit of room I can push the screen a foot or so into bay 2 of the garage if need.

[Flying_Fox]

Was thinking of this way for placement.  That way I can access the breaker box, the garage door opener and tracks really don't inpact the screen or PJ placement and to get a bit of room I can push the screen a foot or so into bay 2 of the garage if need.

Hi John,

With 12 foot I am afraid you might have to turn it 45 degrees into the corner. That's what I had to do and my room has 370 cm width.

Nick

[jskibo]

Was thinking of this way for placement.  That way I can access the breaker box, the garage door opener and tracks really don't inpact the screen or PJ placement and to get a bit of room I can push the screen a foot or so into bay 2 of the garage if need.

I'm hoping to avoid that as it will block the breaker box any way I do it.

On the bright side, the bottom part of the picture doesn't show the other 2 bays in the garage, so I can poke into the bottom part about a foot.

Was hoping on a 12ft diameter screen, that's only a 6 ft radius.  It the platform is 8 ft and the nose is a foot off the screen, I have 3 feet behind the shell to get in it and pass over to the breaker box should I need to, four feet if I push the screen a foot into the other area of the garage.
Hi John,

With 12 foot I am afraid you might have to turn it 45 degrees into the corner. That's what I had to do and my room has 370 cm width.

Nick

[XOrionFE]

It will fit John.   My wood shell was 8ft deep front to back and would make it there but I think you will only have about 2ft in the back not three as the platform and front of the nose will be about 2 ft off the wall.

Scott

[Flying_Fox]

John, 6 ft radius is not enough for Optoma GT720 projectors, period. I barely fit mine into average radius 200 cm, and it has to change from 198 in the centre to ~ 215 cm at the left/right edge to compensate the image distortions. With Mitsubishi short throw 0.5 you possibly could get away with 6 ft radius but I would keep it no less than 200 cm.

Check my building thread - I talk there about the GT720 projection troubles. http://www.cockpitbuilders.com/community/index.php?topic=1821.msg17641#msg17641

[XOrionFE]

Good point Nick.   I have the Mitsubishi Short throws so 6 ft radius is fine but yes, that can make a big difference in screen size requirements.

Scot

[jskibo]

Ok, I'm confused. 6ft radius, 12ft diameter would give me slightly more than 18 linear feet of screen at 180 degrees, little more if I wrapped it to 200 or 210.   I thought with the 720s six feet back that would work?

Not opposed to dumping them and going with something like the 230UST's if I need to....


200cm is 6'5", does the five inches really matter than much? 

[XOrionFE]

This diagram of my visual setup should help explain a lot.

Scott

[Flying_Fox]

Ok, I'm confused. 6ft radius, 12ft diameter would give me slightly more than 18 linear feet of screen at 180 degrees, little more if I wrapped it to 200 or 210.   I thought with the 720s six feet back that would work?

No, with lack of zoom capabilities you need physically move the projector. Minimal practical distance to get the image 4 ft high (including image limitations introduced by warping is 195 cm.
And this is for one projector, and there are 3 on then that have to be in the same calculated spot. Which is physically not possible.  Projector is not a calculated projection point, it has size.   
See my pictures and calculations for Optoma 720 - I had to put projectors in 2 levels, use keystone correction and push the screen wings out to at least make the  the distance from the lens  to screen surface comparable to that of center projector.

Wish I wouldn't want to save ~$300 on each projector then. 

Nick

[Flying_Fox]

200cm is 6'5", does the five inches really matter than much?

Yes, even one inch at ST=0.7 and projection distance ~200cm makes a big difference.

Nick

[jskibo]

Looks like I will give 55" or 60" TVs a shot. Figured I'd hit Costco and start with three.  If I like it, I will try to get 5 running.  Should help with space as well.

[sagrada737]

I noticed last night that Best Buy has 60" Samsung HD TVs for $1,000. 

Like most folks, there is a not so subtle attraction to multiple projection wrap around displays.  But as has been commented, it is no easy task for such a setup, and the portability issues are fixed once you build a large fixed screen system around your simulator.  Also, as was pointed out, the projection system is hyper-sensitive specific to the projector model/type, so it not so easy to change out projectors if your projector becomes no longer available or unsupported.

So...   I'm guessing around $5,000 for a well done dedicated, fixed curved screen build-out, $3,000 to $5,000 for three short-throw   projectors, plus around $6,000 for high-end video computers, plus software, highly specialized install/maintenance requirements, plus putting the house, wife, and kids on hold while we spend the rest of our life getting all this tweaked. 

Perhaps most reading this are saying right now that I could do all this for far less.  But when I think back on building my Turbine Legend, I had a "firm budget" of $150K and a couple of years to complete the project.  Well...   $400,000 and nine years later I finally finished this wonderful experimental aircraft.  I have yet to build a 737NG simulator, but I can smell the scope of this project a mile away.  A full-scale 737NG simulator has all the sweet aroma and lure that makes up the suite of electro-mechanical/software considerations we are so fond of, but I strongly sense this type of project is BIG, and not to be entered into lightly, or for the faint of heart - not to mention the significant cost involved.  That said, the challenge calls....

Let's see.... three 60" hi-res/high contrast monitors...  Hummm  Perhaps not exactly "full emersion", but the other attributes of such an installation may be worth rethinking.  After all...   I can always move up to projection in the future, but it may be a tough choice to reverse course once I have invested in a state-of-the-art multi-projector setup only to have it obsolete in a few years by newer technology that always comes along.  Something to think about for new full-scale sim builders.

Mike

[jskibo]

My thought's are along the experimental route to see if I like it.  Sure I would love the full wrap around, awesome goodness that a good PJ system would bring, but I also want to get flying after 2+ years of building.

If I buy at Costco, they have a great return policy, but that aside, worst case is I fly it for a year that way, maybe upgrade to 5 for a more wrap around view.  If I spend too much time at Scott's house and start drooling for a PJ setup, I'll move the 60" into to the house and replace the 5 50" TV's we have hanging in various areas.  Maybe give the kids the 50" then and reconfigure to a PJ system.

My worst fear is I get it just about set up and we have to move again.  History over the last 6 moves over 20 years shows I stay in a house maybe 4 years at most.  Though mine and my wife's company pays for the moves, they don't cover "Hobby or Business" equipment, so I'm stuck taking all apart and moving it myself.  Not impossible, but I'd rather move the shell and let them crate up the TV's like they have done for all my other ones.

Hell Fry's had the Panasonic 60" Plasma for $699 last weekend, and I've seen them in the mid $700's on the Panasonic EPP sight.  I have 5 Panasonics and never had an issue with them.

This is getting more interesting

[Maurice]

I'll just add a little fuel to the fire for anyone with limited space still thinking about a full wraparound system using projectors. Even if the projectors never need repairs (yeah right), sooner or later you will need to replace a bulb and when that happens, good luck trying to remove a projector without moving the shell since the projectors are located roughly above the center of the shell.

Something to think about before you invest in projectors and don't even think about projectors unless your platform is on wheels and can be pulled out of the way if needed.

My 2 cents based on my experience.

Maurice

[sagrada737]

Hey John,

Great minds think alike!  I too have had to move frequently over the years, and it can be a hassle no matter who moves you.  We all think that life is forever, but life happens and change is usually in the future for most all of us.  Part of what makes life exciting is the things we do in between major change- like building up a cool 737NG simulator system. 

It may be different for some in this forum, but I know as I get older (64 now), I find it extremely helpful to stay involved in interesting projects that draw on our mind, body and soul.  That is what I like about building up a full scale sim project, as it is not your ordinary project, demands stretching every aspect of intellect and commitment as applied to the various disciplines involved in a complex electro-mechanical software controlled set of systems we find in a full scale simulator project.  To me, the key to moving forward on my 737NG sim project, is not to get lost in the details and blindly start building things.  I have found it critical to develop a well thought out plan with realistic goals and expectations for this kind of complex project in order for it to succeed.  Fortunately, there is a small community for these kind of projects and a willingness to share experiences and help guide others down the path.  In that regard, I am very thankful for this kind of forum and the interesting folks that participate and contribute.

In my new quest to build up a 737NG simulator, I am excited about the possibilities, hence my current mode being in the research, planning and preparation phases.  While that is going on, I am just now finishing up another large scale project that has been underway for the last six years - designing and building a 24"RC telescope and mount system for a new robotic observatory configuration.  This telescope will be used for CCD astrophotography, which is one of my personal interests.  I mention this because I know what it is like to tackle a large scale project on both personal and corporate basis - both difficult, but fun and exciting.  But I digress...

When I think about the offerings for fixed-based simulators, it seems that a high percentage of these use multiple monitors as opposed to projection systems.  This makes me think about what Scott said to me recently relating to what a person wants to get out of his simulator from an operational basis - the contrast being flying around looking at the scenery and getting the "sense" of motion - the so-called "full-immersion" simulation, or the excitement of partial immersion with focus on procedures and process of flying a big platform like the 737NG.  All this does not negate the building and ongoing maintenance side of having your own simulator, which for me is a significant part of the love for this kind of hobby or endeavor.  In that regard, the more you do, the more you do...  It helps to keep you young at heart.

I'm starting to conclude that a multiple monitor setup make more sense, whereby I can place more effort on the simulator side on the front-end of my 737NG project.  I suspect that many sim builders might rethink their display strategies if they could do it all over again.  Am I wrong?

It seems to me that the realism of flight has a lot to do with the mind/machine interface.  The visual display tends to help that along.  I think that is why the quality of the wrap-around display plays an important part of the sim experience - hat is, the "peripheral sense" that something is going on while you are doing something else - namely setting up and operating in the cockpit environment.  In this regard, I think that the right size and placement of multiple monitors would go a long way to accomplish this component and peripheral part of the cockpit/flying experience.

I am very interested in hearing more of what you might be thinking of the system trad-offs between multi-projection vs. multi-monitor systems for the FSX display requirements.

Well...  To my surprise this morning, my wife said to me, "Honey, don't you think you should take over the back room for the flight simulator you have been talking about?"  I about fell out of my chair, and of course said that was a great idea.  So... in the next month, I will be moving out of my small office in the house and changing locations to out back room in the house, which is large enough for my 737NG project and office.  It even has a curved part ( 8 foot radius) of the wall that is ready made for a simulator display - either projection or monitor - whichever way I decide to start with.  The ceiling is 16 feet, so that is not a problem either.  It looks like I have a new plan as to where to locate my 737NG project..

Hope to hear further discussion on display strategies.

Keep your airspeed up!
Mike

[jskibo]

I'm waiting for you to start a thread on this turbine legend you built!  Sounds interesting.

Holy cow, 5500FPM climb rate!?  Just looked it up....

I guess if I want the real feeling of flight I'll go grab the club Mooney and take it out for a few hours.  Actually taking it to Vegas in two week, so after 20 hours in it I might be ready for the sim again

[Flying_Fox]

I'll just add a little fuel to the fire for anyone with limited space still thinking about a full wraparound system using projectors. Even if the projectors never need repairs (yeah right), sooner or later you will need to replace a bulb and when that happens, good luck trying to remove a projector without moving the shell since the projectors are located roughly above the center of the shell.

Something to think about before you invest in projectors and don't even think about projectors unless your platform is on wheels and can be pulled out of the way if needed.

You are right Maurice - I designed my projector system so each projector assembly just slides off on rails, so it's not a problem to change a bulb.



Sim is on wheels too. 

[jskibo]

Nick you did a great job with that.  A lot of thought into your setup!

Guess I am going to push ahead a lot this winter.  Just sourced a -300 overhead from Nick at APHS and spoke with Peter about how to use it with their IBL panels.

Heck, maybe I'll be flying it by May   I hear the Overhead wiring is a fun months worth of work (as a full time job).

[jskibo]

Good weekend here, found a SYS1X card, unused, for $200.  That takes care of the overhead.


Edit, make that $150 as he couldn't find the PS or USB cables.....

Note, if anyone is looking for a CPFlight MCP or EFIS, he has one each I believe.