Does any panel vendor make scale panels?

[XOrionFE]

Getting very frustrated as I have drawings from the Open Cockpits site and they dont seem to match up with their own panels.   I have compared the radios and audio panel to the drawings and sizes dont match.     I then took the actual overhead center panel from a 737 which I have (real deal) and compared to the drawings and clearly showed the drawings to be incorrect.    I also looked at various other drawings and they are all scaled differently.     I had hoped to mix and match panels such as making some, buying some, and getting some of the real ones but it seems this will not work because nobody is the same.    Why on earth would vendors not make their panels to exact scale?  Are they trying to ensure you only buy full sets from them?

Anybody have answers or dealt with this?    If you are going to tell me to ensure I buy everything from the same vendor please dont bother replying as that is not an answer.

Can the vendors comment?  OC, Engravity? FDS?   Are you guys purposely not making your panels to scale?

[dnoize]

Well, we are making our panels absolutely to scale, dzus compliant and we have customers that have fit our panels in real overhead rack and ive also test fitted our panels to the overhead rack in the shell we have in the shop.

Same for our pedestal panels. In my own sim i have a mix of real and engravity panels and they fit perfectly size wise.

All our sizes are taken by ourselves from 737 NG's in the KLM hangars.

Many real gauges fit (see carlos post about the trim air valve this weekend)

I cant speak for all other vendors but we are detail freaks and replicate the panels even up to the "+ " mark on the panels (thats the spot where the connector is for the backlighting on real panels, so a pilot can tap there when the backlighting fails).

Not all vendors have access to the real aircraft. There are some cad drawings and pdf's on the net with 737 panels. These drawings are used by alot of vendors, but FAR from the correct scale. For a home sim, if you are on a tight budget, or if you dont care about small differences or dzus compliance, then these panel kits are fine. If you buy their entire panel you will hardly notice the difference. If you want  exact matching panels you will have to look for real panels (which will be hard for the ng specific panels) or for a quality vendor.

So as to your question why not all vendors use the correct dimensions: well i guess not all vendors have access to the real aircraft or the real drawings. True scale panels means alot of research and time in replicating them and thats reflected in the price: you get what you pay for.

just my 2 cents.

Stef

[XOrionFE]

Thank you for the explanation Stef.

I was trying to save a little by going OC on radios and pedestal so I guess I will keep all those the way they are since I already have all of their radios.     I do have the CP Flight EL series MCP and EFIS now and they are really top notch.    If you say the engravity panels are scale and would fit in a real overhead that is the way I will go when I get moving on the overhead.   I have an actual frame, center panel, and lights panel so maybe I can get some real panels and some engravity panels for it.    Wish I could afford to just grab all engravity stuff and be done :-)

[Boeing Skunk Works]

The panel size for OC's nav heads are nearly spot-on, within <1/16", but the mounting holes are not near the correct size for Dzus fasteners. I had to open all of the holes up to the correct size. I'll have to do it again for the comm heads and transponder too I'm sure.

I don't mind for the price I paid. At least they work how they are supposed to and look good. Beats a real Collins head that just sits there and lights up. There was no way I was going to pay $300 to over $400 for a working radio head from the other vendors. $400+ for a fricken radio head??? Gimme a break already. They aren't made by Collins or even Gables.

[XOrionFE]

I fired up all my radio heads tonight to make sure they all work and I have to say, the OC ones are a real bargain for what you get.   They look great.   I see some light bleed from the backlight LEDs that I will have to take care of and for some reason all of them have a nice white backlighting except one of the COMM panels which has an off white tone to it.  I think it must be from an older batch with different LEDs.   I am going to check with OC and see if I can get the whiter leds from them that they are using now and I will just resolder them in place of the others so it matches.   

The CP Flight MCP and EFIS units (EL series) look and work great also although they dont seem to control the default 737 too well.   I have to play with them some more but in the end they will be controlling Sim-Avionics anyway.

Now I just have to resize all my drawings so I can use them for making some of my own stuff on the cnc.   

[dnoize]

There was no way I was going to pay $300 to over $400 for a working radio head from the other vendors. $400+ for a fricken radio head??? Gimme a break already. They aren't made by Collins or even Gables.

Thats correct, because then you would be paying tens of thousands of dollars ;-)

Stef

[Boeing Skunk Works]

It's absolutely correct. I know what Collins and Gables equipment costs.

Other than the construction of the lightplate between the two vendors, what's the difference in electronics? Does that lightplate make it worth $300+ more than what OC charges? They both do the exact same thing in exactly the same way; change radio frequencies.

Or is it because it has a well known name associated with it and multiple aviation industry contracts? 
Pretty soon they'll be charging Spectra-Lux prices.

But I guess it doesn't really matter.

[Efe]

Once again, the whole supply and demand issue rises up. As long as enough builders are willing to pay the price, the companies will keep charging what they are. When it comes to comparing products from various companies and deciding whether you're getting added value for your buck with the more expensive units... I really couldn't say as I haven't gotten to play with all the products on the market yet. We use CPFlight modules for the MIP and pedestal and apart from some issues to do with the sturdiness of the knobs, we are happy.

There was a comment the other day about being a cockpit builder as opposed to a cockpit buyer, when it comes to purchasing ready modules as opposed to making your own. There is obviously more products and more variety in products on the market then when I got into this hobby back in January 2008. If willing to pay the price, of course it is easier to get the ready plug and play modules then to make everything yourself. Some of us are much better at working the electronics and mechanics necessary than others. In the end, it is best summed up by someone I consider one of the people I look up to in regards to cockpit building, Ian Sissons:

Budget + Skill Level + Time\Expectations + Space Available’ = Your Cockpit. No two cockpits are the same because the variables in each case are different.

[dnoize]

You got a point there Michael, and there IS a reason for the price differences.

What is so absolutely great about Open Cockpits is that they started as a open source project and they still arent a real profit organisation.

OC is a great bunch of friends, thats out there to make affordable cockpit parts without running on a profit business model.

Even now, many of their projects are still open source. You can still download the gerber files (to make your own pcb's), all schematics and even the source code for the pics to make and program your own cards at a budget price.

Their aim has never been to make a big profit and alot of builders profit from that.

I can tell you there is hardly any profit on their radios (if any). They dont have huge overhead costs, like buildings, employees, support, etc.

Commercial companies like FDS, Cockpit Sonic, CPflight, FLY engravity (although i dont take it personally as our radios are not 400$ ;-) ), etc DO have these overhead costs, buildings, bigger and more expensive machines, employees, etc.

And ofcourse the name does matter also.

As silly as it seems, but PRO customers rather pay MORE money than go for budget parts.

So if one of these companies (and i think you mean FDS with the pro contracts), they would actually aquire LESS pro contracts.

That + quality and support issues well explain the price differences. Like between a volkswagen and a BMW.

But that doesnt change the fact that its great that there are companies like Open Cockpits !  :-)

Stef

[Trevor Hale]

All in all guys, Things cost as they do.  I appreciate your insight Stef, From a business perspective I am sure you are right on the money.. 

Regardless, we all know some things cost more, and I don't think it is really beneficial to summarize what reasons any companies have for charging the way they do.  All in all, Like Efe Said, there are enough people in this hobby that have been down many roads..  and we use the advice these people have to the best of our abilities.

In the end..  If you want it bad enough, you will find a way to buy it, or Build it

So lets try to keep the thread on topic here.. Before we start getting the "PM Costs to much Postings again" cause I feel that will be next LOL

Trev

[XOrionFE]

This thread was originally about finding scale drawings and being able to mix and match homemade parts, real parts, and vendor panels.    That is what I would love to find.    The fact that Stef says their panels are scale was very informative to me and will make me buy them for my overhead for sure.   I was also happy to hear that the OC Radio Heads are also scale.     This will help me in making other panels myself.   

On a final note, i switched from building a Lear 45 to building a 737 because of the great vendor support and availability of commercial ready made plug and play products.   So far none of these vendors we all know have let me down and I appreciate their doing this for us and realize sometimes I have to pay what I have to pay:-).  Just wish I had more patience for the waiting on some parts :-)